I've been reading some posts lately in response to people selecting gunsmiths to build a rifle. There has been some great responses and it is interesting to see peoples ideas.

I hesitate to say this but in the custom forum I hear more about the looks than the accuracy. Not that I don't like pretty guns but my main goal is accuracy and function.

One of the reasons for me bringing up the topic is that there are a lot of gunsmiths out there that do it all, and some very well, but how many people send there guns to a person that specializes in something specific, and has the training and experience? This could be multiple gunsmiths depending on the rifles use.

There are people that specialize in chambering, making rifle barrels, making stocks, machining parts, painting stocks, and painting guns. There are people that build bench rest guns, F class guns, and longrange hunting rifles. There are people that specialize in wildcat cartridges and custom actions. It isn't realistic to say there is a person that specializes or is the best in all of these categories so how many people use different people during the process of their builds?

I read recently in a post where a guy goes and gets the rifle chambered and uses it for a season to make sure the balance, fit/function, and accuracy are good before dumping more money into it. It seemed like a great idea to me, good insurance, and you get your rifle back probably a lot quicker. What happens if you go through the wait, have a whole rifle complete, and it has a bad barrel or something else is wrong?

kallen, your question is a very valid one. I got burned on three different guns, gunsmiths claim one thing, then do another.

Using a recoginzed gunsmith does not Guarantee perfection, there are some steps you can do to guarantee that you get what you ordered.

Order your own stock, barrel, provide the action, and just as important the reamer that you want the barrel chambered with. Very few ever think of how important the chamber is. I had two Shilen select match barrels installed on a trued Rem 700 action in a McMillen Hunter Class stock in 22/250. I got the rifle back and a Rem factory chamber was "tighter" than that big loose sloppy chamber that the "custom" gunsmith put in those two barrels...entire project shot to hell. So, from then on, I order my own reamers from Pacific Precision. I had one gunsmith keep a Hugh Hendrickson 222 Mag reamer that I waited a year to get.

I don't understand this statement:

"I read recently in a post where a guy goes and gets the rifle chambered and uses it for a season to make sure the balance, fit/function, and accuracy are good before dumping more money into it."

You will have to do your homework in what ever area your interests lie. I would say that a gunsmith's worst nightmare is trying to make weight on an ultra light with custom this and that, then try and match the accuracy of a 13 lb rifle in the same caliber.

There is a difference between a gunsmith and a rifle builder. A gunsmith can do a myriad of fixes for different problems related to firearms. A gun maker is more qualified to do the build and along the way could do gunsmithing.

It's like a opthamologist can do what an optometrist can do, but the reverse is not true.

Like the previous poster said. Get a gunmaker, not a plumber.

Seems like most of the "gunsmiths" around mostly clean guns and boresight scopes. Maybe trigger jobs or free float barrels.

When I wanted a new barrel screwed on I found a builder who almost exclusively does rebarreling jobs.

I was trying to say that the guy puts the minimum into putting a gun together before final finishing. If adjustments needed to be done he wasn't wasting more money on the stock and barrel painting. I think he was able to get the chambering done and then he did the rest of the work himself where this might not be an option for everyone.

Keith on you last statement I think your totally correct and I am concerned about people who build guns thinking a ultralight gun will shoot like a 13 lb comp gun. I thought for a while that the accuracy potential is there, it's possible, but the fact is that the small diameter longer barrel has more vibration, more barrel whip, and less consistency in accuracy. There are a few exceptions but it's a gamble for the gunsmith and owner. Some gunsmiths don't build light guns, and some barrel makers don't recommend small contour barrels because it doesn't reflect the accuracy standards they want to be recognized by.

It sounds like you have some good experience Keith. You never know what your getting with someone elses reamer. I'm still trying to learn what makes the difference between a good chamber guy and a so so chamber guy but I guess if I knew that it would be an easy job for anyone to do. I was getting the impression over the years that there wasn't too much skill and about any machinist could do it provided a rented reamer. What I think I know now is that it requires good tools, clean machining, a desire for precision, and experience. On experience I think you have to know what works and doesn't work. The best way in my opinion is you have to shoot what you make.

I'm not sure if I understand the OP but here is my take on what I think I heard-

Suppose you take it upon yourself (after years of research and dreaming) to compile components and then start shipping parts across country to one "specialist" then another until you have a complete rifle.

What happens if it doesn't shoot as well you think think it ought to? Unless there's an obvious defect,who do you go back to? The guy who trued the action, the barrel maker, the barrel chamberer/fitter, or the guy who fitted the stock?

Who pays time/shipping/ammo to figure out the problem? Who decides what the proper remediation steps are? Do the guys who followed the "bad work" have any responsibility to cut you break on price or delivery if their work needs to be redone as a result of a defect that happened upstream of them?

In my business, I disclaim responsibility for work and materials beyond my control (owner supplied). It sounds logical, simple, even <gasp> common sensical, but, you'd be surprised handy it is have it in my contract.

My advice, at least for your first custom, hire someone that will take responsibility for the entire project meeting your specification. Let them sub out what they see fit. In my experience, many gunsmiths do their best work when they know it will be judged by their peers.

Just my $0.02

Your chambers were not the result of any reamer issue.. They were the result of lazy barrel setup in the lathe.. You can buy the most expensive, best-made reamer in the world and unless the smith knows how to (and takes the time to) properly set up a barrel before machining, that reamer will be as useful as Algore...

There are times that it takes me nearly half an hour to get a barrel set up right and true..


I don't care to work on other smiths mistakes either unless I'm authorized to start from scratch..

Kallen,

I think I understand what you mean. For instance, I have a barreled action waiting for a McMillan right now. Stainless barrel, blued action. I want to have it cerakoted and will probably upgrade the glass down the road.

But I'm waiting to put it together and see how she shoots/handles first. I can make it pretty once I know it's a keeper...

Travis

I'm one who is a fan of one person having all the responsiblity of craftsmanship...one for all the credit/accountability. I would hate to have a rifle not shoot well/function and more than one finger to point at the responsible party. I know if I were to be responsible for the product, I want to be responsible for the entire project.

I think that, over time, 'smiths earn their reputation, either positive or negative.

If you go with a "name" 'smith whose expertise/reputation/success has been in the style of rifle that you're looking for, you're more likely to be happy then if you contract for an ultra-light mountain rifle from a 'smith whose claim to fame is heavy bean-field rifles.

A business that I really like working with on handguns is Ahlman's in Morristown, MN. With few exceptions, I'm Smith & Wesson guy, but I had such a bad experience with S&W that I would never recommend that anyone send a handgun to them for repair work. I now send my S&W shooters to Ahlman's to be tuned and I think that the pistolsmiths there are better then the guys in Springfield, MA. Ahlman's isn't widely known, but they do good work at a fair price and their turn around time is quicker then most.

Jeff

There are some good points to having one person do all the work. I can't imagine having something go wrong, not knowing what it is, and then who to send it too for correction.

On the other hand:
I think the only accuracy issue besides the barreling would be the bedding job or a scope issue. On the later it maybe a mute point. How common is it for people to send in a scope or buy a scope to complete the rifle at the gunsmith? I don't really trust any shipper to get a scoped rifle back without damage. How common is it that a gunsmith shoots the rifle before it goes out? I know a lot don't because it isn't feasable with the time vs. cost, and to keep a competitive price time is money.

If you have a custom action or a pre-trued action the typical cost for a thread, chamber, fit, polish and crown barrel is $250 from some of the top chambers in the U.S., people like Mike Bryant, Jim Borden and a host of others. There are even other competition gunsmiths that do it for less if you search around.

I guess what I am thinking is to have the top chambering guys do their work and then outsource the stock painting and gun painting down the road after the rifle is verified to shoot.

I know right off the bat one of the downsides to doing this is missing that feeling of opening up that package from UPS or USPS of a beautiful new custom rifle that arrived on your door step.

Redneck, I don't think that you and I are on the same page. When I had a benchrest gunsmith tell me he had a really good reamer, then get the gun back with two chambers that were larger than Rem factory chambers, both in size, leade, neck dia, etc, I know that his reamer was a piece of crap.

I have set up a barrel or two in the headstock of a lathe, I know what you are referring to, and you are correct. I was speaking of the fact that I wanted minimum Spec Match chambers and I got Max SAAMI spec chambers, entire project shot to hell. There was a HUGE bulge on the back of the brass in front of the web, and I only had .050 bullet in the case using a 55g bullet, barrel darn near shot out in an unfired state. Neck was s big that cases started splitting on the 4th firing....need I go any further?

kallen, if you buy all the parts yourself, you will save a bundle...the guy is in business, he has to charge you for using his money.

Custom rifles may take a while to get all the parts together, especially if you have 4 or 10 in the pipeline. You buy the parts as you see deals on parts that you see for sale...you save BIG BUCKS!

It is not unusual for a cusotm rifle made on a Rem 700 in a McMilen stock to run $2400-$3200 dollars or much more. It would surprise you what you could do on your own, having a guy like Micky Coleman do your work, and many others.

I have had experience where one gunsmith has worked on the entire job and the rifle didn't function right. The gunsmith spent and exhausting time to figure it out. I can assure you that if several people worked on it fingers would be pointing and nothing would get done without spending more money for someone to take ownership of the project. You can't expect a gunsmith to warrenty someone elses work and be responsible for it. What I pay for when I contract my gunsmith is a guarantee. Ask a gunsmith if a barrel can be bad, if an action could be bad, what could go wrong in a build even with the best parts possible? Best of luck to all on their path of choice...but my path is going to be to jump off the bridge with one gunsmith.

Then it could be a reamer improperly ground from the get-go, which could happen to anyone including a rifle's owner who bought one on his own.. I'd love to see the actual measurements/specs on that reamer..

I guess another question is: if you've set up barrels in a lathe yourself why didn't you do the chambering?

Unless it's shown that his reamer is way out of spec, I still say he didn't carefully set up that barrel.. If he, for whatever reason, allowed a .003+ runout, you'll get an oversize chamber with blown cases, especially if he didn't also dial in the muzzle..

I can't remember the statistics but it was on the subject about getting a "good" barrel. It was on a benchrest forum and the statement was basically so many barrels out of 10 make the cut to see competition. There are going to be some better or worse from lot to lot.

tlfw states that ask a gunsmith possible problems that can go wrong? Exactly things happen that aren't always in the gunsmith control. I'm sure there are things that could be done to insure a good receiver and barrel before starting a project but that would be time consuming beyond the normal chambering job. It's a gamble sometimes the components aren't perfect. The reputation of the gunsmith is probably more built on how they deal with a bad apple.

With the above quote smith's earn their reputation good or bad over time; I don't know how that all works in the web (forum) enviroment. I read once before that you will get all kind of reply's on who to recommend but try finding not to recommend. I can't remember seeing many accuracy problems besides a couple guys that had erratic shooting just to find out it was a scope problem.

Redneck, the reamer used in my custom gun was a standard SAAMI spec reamer with a long leade, huge neck dia, etc. Back then, 69g Sierra's did not even exist. The gunsmith is now dead, but he was a national competitor in the NBRSA and built many guns for benchrest shooters. When I called him up and told him about his "good reamer" he confessed that he had bought the reamer in an estate sale with a bunch of other reamers. He made no offers to make things right. Prior to using this guy, I had used Fred Sinclair to chamber all my BR rifles, and Fred was as fine a fellow as you could ever want to deal with.

Due to dealing with this guy and two other pipe fitters, friend and I went in halfs on a lathe, precision chuck, etc...not a smart way to spend money. The quality gunsmtiths that we knew of took 6 months to a year to get a job done, we had more money than patience. That was the end of our gun problems.

No....and "...it could be..." means you're assuming. In this case it means what Keith said, that the reamer was SAAMI spec. and real sloppy.

I order all my own parts. I take the parts to a local smith that builds high end BR guns. We lay out the barrel dicuss all of my wants and needs and he writes them all down. Never got a turd from him nor do expect to. he does the metal I do the stocks. I shoot varmit matches with him on the weekends. He has became a mentor and a friend. Still pay full price LOL. You got to pick the right guy for the job. You want a BR gun. Look at the equipmnet list for the super shoot. You want a DGR in a fine walnut stock, get with the guys that hunt Africa and find out who they use. I find if you let the right guy do the right jobs, the gun gets done faster and with less hiccups. My latest build. One guy to tig and time the bolt. One guy to flute and install the bolt release, another to true and hang the barrel. I am doing the stock. Then it will all get coated by another. Gun should be done by mid summer, just started ordering parts.

BTW Eddie Harren posts here. He is/was a plumber and builds a fine rifle. He and his wife do real well in Hunter Class also. So a Plumber can be a very good smith LOL.

I hear ya.. But this part - gives me the shivers..

That sentence is a contradiction.. It's either to specs, OR it's 'sloppy'..

Again, no......SAAMI spec. chambers are either sloppy or real sloppy.

(sigh)... Wrong, but it's of no use to argue further..

NOBODY's getting the point.

I give up.. Geez

I just said the same thing about Demo"n"crats and this health care fiasco!!!

Ackman is a tool..

That being said,

I enjoy putting rifles together. It took a little bit of learning, but installing triggers, tweaking triggers, bedding, working on feeding, etc is enjoyable for me. It took me learning on old stocks, triggers, etc, but it's all pretty simple stuff. I look forward to learning more.

I actually got pissed off about a month ago while working on guns at my lack of parts inventory. I ordered $800 worth of Rem 700 parts to make sure I had a very good inventory of every screw, follower, magbox, etc.. Those stamped followers ain't cheap!

For sure... It took me twelve years to build up some kind of inventory..

I hope it takes me 12 years to go through that inventory, with how much money I have into it..(grin) Shipping is such an expense up here, that I figured I might as well get it over with in one shot.

Damn, you guys are just so knowledgeable I can't believe it.