I happened on an older thread about short action big bores, and it got my wheels turning, has anyone here ever experimented with this wildcat? I don't have the funds right now (still in college :)) and working on a different rifle project, but this seems like a neat conversion I would like to try in the near future. Just wondering what kind of speeds would be possible with the 350-400 gr. bullets.
Thanks for any info

Same as a 416Taylor ... approx 2370fps with 400gr and approx 2600fps with a 325gr.

I think Charlie Sisk in the USA has built them, and in Australia it was Clem Stevenson who named his WSM based wildcats the 'Australian Stalker' series offering a 375, 404 which was replaced by a 416 and a 458.
Cheers...
Con

There are a number of 'short .416s'. .416 B&M comes to mind as well after perusing AR.

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

But only if you want them to build a rifle for you, QC issues you know.

Jeff

There is an ongoing series of articles in PS right now on something like this.

The author bought a 7 WSM and is reboring it up to .416 in steps, doing load development along the way... I've read the article on .358, then he is doing .375 and .416. According to what he had to say in the .358 write-up this parent cartridge really comes into its own the larger you open it up.

Seems to me that, based upon the real world results of its smaller-bore siblings with "standard length magnums" in corresponding diameters (7mm & 30 cal) that actual results would be just shy of the 416 Taylor.

To me the limiting factor would be mag length. I have a .325 that I have thought hard about having rebored to .375 and throated for the 270 gr Interlock, but mag length be the limiting factor there and I can't help but think that at that point I might as well go with a .376 Steyr or a standard action and a .375 Ruger?

I'd like to have a .458WSM so I could shoot 405 grain Remington bullets in it.

efw,
Mag. length in a M70 or Kimber 8400 is a non-issue..

all i can say about that is WOW!

At least they were smart enough to add the "&". Who would want a BM rifle or cartridge?

their 50 B&M, a 7.5# rifle launching a 500 gr bullet @ 2150 from an 18" barrel. i wouldn't make fun of that one....

That one may cause a BM!

A .411cal with pistol bullets up to 400 grain thumpers would also rate a thought.

The 405 pointed Hornady bullets might be a good varmint bullet...

...involuntary as it may be...

Thanks for all the feedback! I'm thinking about an 18.5" barrel would make a slick handling short-range powerhouse!

Excuse my ignorance but what is PS? Those articles would be of interest to me.

Precision Shooting.

efw,
Any chance of scanning the articles and emailing them? The 35WSM is known as the 35Sambar in Australia, a friend has built one on a Ruger and its a hammer at just under Norma Magnum speeds! I've had a 458B&M built on a Ruger and its also a very nice package. Friends are building a trio of '458WSSM' with Manson just finalising reamer specs at the moment.
Cheers...
Con

I'd guestimate from the short tube you'd be looking at 350 gr @ 2400+ fps and 400 gr @ 2200 fps. That's not a bad territory to be in, but I'm kinda partial to the gold standard of 416's which is 350's @ 2700 fps and 400's @ 2400 fps. Also at level of recoil, there is something to be said for a rifle that has a little bit of weight to it.

PM inbound.

That second article arrived in my box today... 375 WSM... he reiterates how the cartridge gets better the bigger the bore gets...

I've got a 325 WSM that I've learned to like, but that 375 WSM idea is one that may prove irresistible...

Gary Junk at Arctic Gunworks in Fairbanks,Alaska has also played with that wildcat.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Hi guys. I am the "M" in the B&M! We don't use WSM brass for the cartridges, it's cut down RUM brass for several of the B&M Series, the 50 B&M, 475 B&M, 458 B&M, 416 B&M, 410 B&M, 375 B&M and lastly the 9.3 B&M. All of these work on Win M70 WSM actions.

The Super Short Series uses WSM brass that is cut and trimmed to 1.65 inches, 50, 475, and 458, on Win M70 WSSM actions.

500 MDM is built on Win M70 RUM rifles--full length .500 caliber RUM case.

50 B&M AK is a squeezed down 50 AK case, from .510 to .500.

All of these have proven very capable packages, very compact and handy, with power to spare.

Michael

Stick with a 20"+ barrel on the big stuff. The muzzle flip and blast might not be to your liking at 18.5".

If you like to handload, then I'd recommend you build wildcat like this. It is a fun project and will teach you a ton about rifles, cartridges, loading, brass, and powders. It isn't cheap. Figure $1500 at a minimum, unless you are doing the machine work.

Michael nice stuff!!!

Mike

Thanks Ready!


As for barrel length--no way, I am not getting muzzle blast at all with even the Super Shorts in 16.5 inch barrels! Depends on the Ctg and the powders! In the larger B&Ms on WSM rifles, 18 inch barrels there is no muzzle blast, powders are burned efficiently within the bore. Choose the wrong powder? Well you might see some then I suppose?

As for loss of velocity, when you start dropping bore size then yes, you will see some loss when you get to 416 caliber. Very minor loss at 458 caliber from 20 to 18, about 10-15 fps per inch on some loads, some loads no loss. At .500 caliber there is zero gain or loss from 20 to 18. The difference between 18 and 20 inches does not sound like much, UNTIL you handle the rifle, then your eyes really begin to open! I am more than willing to sacrifice a few fps if I have to, to gain the handling ability of a 18 inch rifle.

You cannot accomplish this mission with standard cartridges! You loose too much going from 24 to 18. For instance, in the 458 B&M it is the dead equal to a 458 Winchester, both capable of 500 gr bullets at 2150 fps--the difference is that the 458 Winchester requires a 24 inch barrel to get there, and therefor a 9-10 lb rifle on average, and the 458 B&M gets there on a platform that can come from 6.5 lbs to 8 lbs depending on the stock, and 18 inches of barrel, efficiently. What do you think I am going to carry all day long?

Thanks
Michael

Had Gary Junk build a 416 WSM for my Dad on a SA M77 that was originally a 350 Rem Mag. Feeds perfectly with zero alterations to the box or feed ramps. Used a Mcgowen stainless barrel with a overall length of 20". Haven't run it over the crono but load data provided shows 350gr at just over 2500 and 400gr just over 2200, both from a 20" barrel. It will easily shoot MOA with 340gr Woodleighs over 4895.

I shoot a 416 Rem and to be honest, the handiness and light weight of the short action with short barrel cannot be beat, especially when you consider the original 404 Jeffery loads were 400gr @ 2150 and that combination has been killing dangerous game for nearly a century.

AK416

I could not agree with you more! The 416 WSM is very close to the 416 B&M. I have a few 20 inch guns, but did one with 18 inches and an Ultimate stock. Rifle is 38.5 inches overall, and with that Ultimate stock comes in at 6.5 lbs. Add a 1X4 Leupold VX2 brings it to just under 7.5 lbs. I am shooting an extremely devastating 325 gr brass NonCon at 2475 fps in the 18 inch gun with AA 2520, pressures running 59000 or so. In these guns I prefer 325 to 350 gr bullets.

Michael

AK416

Forgot to add, I figure that the 416WSM or B&M versions, setup like my 18 inch gun, which is stainless, has to be about the perfect Alaskan rifle using the right bullets! I can't see how one could get anything better and more versatile.

Michael

I looked at the B&M 458 WSSM cartridge, but the cost quoted by SSK to rebarrel was a deal killer for me. I might be a buyer when the reamers are available to the general public, but as long as SSK is the single source I'll find other things to spend my $$ on.

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com
www.sskindustries.com

Jeff

Hey Jeff

Glad you joined in. I will never, not ever, allow reamers to be available so they can be bastardized and jeopardize what I am trying to do here! So please do, spend your money elsewhere and I appreciate your input into the matter! In fact, all please read this little note from my website,the B&M Website.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/Special-Note-From-Michael.html

Thanks again

Michael

Folks are welcome to spend their $$ anyway they want to, but there isn't any secret to cutting a chamber and I, personally, can't see paying the $800 price quoted to me by SSK to have a barrel installed on my Winchester/USRA 70 stainless Ultimate Shadow action. I'm sure that if there is enough interest, somebody will offer reamers for similar cartridges and then there won't be any reason to pay inflated prices just because a product is newly introduced and/or "proprietary". Since only SSK has the reamers, for now, and they charge more than I think that the work is worth, I'll, as you say, "stay at home".

I recently posted about the B&M WSSM cartridges on www.wssmzone.com and there didn't seem to be a whole lot of interest. Somebody posted about a $1700 quote from SSK for an AR upper in 50 B&M SA, but noted that he'd be holding off for awhile.

Jeff

PS - Since I wouldn't want superfluous open sights, even if they came from NECG, on my rifle, would that reduce the $800 price quoted by SSK?

First of all, I don't have anything to do with SSK Industries price structure, so I have zero control of that. Personally I think it's a bargain! I have yet to speak with any rifle builder that has been as reasonable as SSK Industries. Every single one I have talked to, even ones without a name, have been far more than what SSK charges. As stated to, it's far more than a "RE-Barrel" as you state! It's a finished product that feeds, functions, works, and is finished. The cost has absolutely ZERO to do with it being a B&M--call up and ask for a common 458 Winchester, it will be the same. Price has nothing to do with the new cartridges, or proprietary cartridges at all, zero. So you are way off base on that.

You know I am no gunsmith, builder, nothing, just a shooter! So all I can say is that all the builders I have checked are more expensive and get less quality, maybe you have not checked around lately? I am not talking about out back in Joe's Garage either!

I am not sure what sort of business you are in, and really could care less, but I am sure that there are people out there that say you, your service, or your product is not worth what you ask for it as well. Possibly your employer thinks the same? Does not make it correct however!

And, these cartridges are for the most part big bores, and big bores are not for everyone. Big Bore rifles are not just common, most folks shoot small bores like 260s and 300s for rats and such, so Big Bore shooting is definitely a minority, and not for everyone.

My advice to you is just stay with your small bore $250 remingtons.

I can't say anymore than what I stated in my link below!

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/Special-Note-From-Michael.html

Michael

Just so that I was clear, I just got off the phone with SSK (740-264-0176) and was quoted $700 for them to provide a barrel, my choice of Douglas or Shilen, in my choice of contours, chambered, fitted to my Winchester/USRA 70 Ultimate Shadow action, and cut/crowned. $700 still seems like a high price for that amount of work to me, but maybe I'm still living in the 1970s.

I do most of my own 'smithing, but do outsource those jobs that I can't or don't care to do. I'm happy with the value, quality, and price of the 'smiths who I do outsource to and happy with the quality of work that I do for myself.

If you get a line on those $250 Remington 700s, please let me know, I need a few more donor actions to keep my project list going for the next few months.

Jeff

Well Jeff, I am happy that you are happy! Sorry, I won't be looking for any cheap remingtons, they don't fit the criteria I require. Seems to me however $250 is a little over priced for that sort of action, I don't think I would want to pay that much for one, more like a $100 or so seems much more in line to me.

I can't say it any clearer however, if you want something cheap, please do get it elsewhere, you will be happy, I will be happy as well!

Michael

Why are you so defensive?

Why do you care if I think that SSK's prices are high if you're not making any $$ by having SSK as the sole source builder of rifles being chambered for the B&M line of cartridges that you've so painstakingly designed and developed? I think that if I had designed a line of potentially useful cartridges and I didn't have any financial interest in their success, I'd release them to the public, so that everybody could benefit from them. I think that Holland & Holland made a wise decision when their "released" the 375 H&H about 100 years ago. Maybe the 350 and 416 Rigby would have been more widespread if they hadn't remained proprietary. But, OTOH, who cares?

I find nothing wrong with Remington 700 actions. Probably a safer design than the cone-breeched Winchester 70s, but, again, who really cares?

Jeff

Jeff, I may turn around and ask you "Why are you so Offensive?"

Obviously you want to post here these questions, when they are answered for everyone to see on the website, all the questions you ask! Since you don't want to either read my little note, or cannot comprehend I will answer all of your questions, from the "Special Note From Michael" page.

Answer to your first question about why I care who builds my rifles!

For all those who are looking for something cheap, please go away, go somewhere else for that. Don't contact me about it. It is my wish to protect the integrity and reputation of the rifles and cartridges, and cheap ain't part of it! If "Cheap" is what you are looking for, look somewhere else, SSK Industries is not going to sacrifice Quality and Integrity so they can be "Cheap". I am not going to sacrifice Quality, Reputation, nor Integrity so they can be "Cheap".

To answer your question of why I care if you think SSK prices are high--I don't care what you think, but I do believe that you are incorrect. Who are the gunsmiths or riflesmiths you outsource to? What is their name, reputation, and experience with big bore rifles? Are they known? Or out back in Joe's Garage? I think you should check around what it costs to send an action or rifle to someone and see what it really costs, but it has to be someone with a reputation, a real shop, in a real business, try Jarret rifles for instance, AHR Maybe? Joe in the back yard don't count, and Joe in the back yard might not have the experience needed to make this work! How about D'Arcy Echols, have you checked those lately?

Why won't I release them? Exactly as stated, I will not allow Joe in the back yard garage to screw up the reputation by chambering a DG Ctg on a Remington, or savage or Marlin bolt gun, and certainly not a CZ, that don't cut it with me. It's going to be 110%, or nothing at all. The cartridges are not designed for that, these are not deer rifles.

I don't consider these just everyday rifles, these I consider Dangerous Game Rifles and Cartridges. I don't want anything "Cheap" out in the field where things bite you, step on you, and want to mangle you, and the thing you have standing between you and said critter is your B&M Rifle! No, I want it to work, feed, function and shoot where I point it, and I don't want to worry about it being the lowest, cheapest possible price!

The reason for this is not to try and profit from this, I get ZERO from it, in fact I spend many thousands of dollars each year to develop and improve the quality of the rifles, cartridges, brass, bullets and all that goes with the B&M's at my own expense, and will never recover any of that money spent. I have a reputation that is far more important to me than money, or profit. I use these rifles in the field on every hunt or adventure I have embarked upon since 2006. My name is on this, and I will not allow a tarnish on that reputation for any reason.

There is no such thing as a "Dissatisfied B&M Owner". Quality, Integrity, and Reputation will not be sacrificed, End Of Story.

Because I do care about reputation, success, and my name is on it, that is why I will keep control of QUALITY!

That should be pretty simple for most anyone to understand!

Michael

I don't hunt dangerous game and have no interest in doing so. I was looking for something to do with my extra 20 or so Winchester/USRA 70 WSSMs, so the B-M 458 looked like a good candidate. However, as noted previously, I contacted SSK and felt that their price was excessive for the work involved. I'm sure that other folks will be happy to pay SSK's prices and feel good about it, just a "different folks, different strokes" sort of thing. I'm sure that if your cartridges generate any degree of interest, somebody will duplicate their performance in a slightly different, non-proprietary, package and all of us who frequent "Joe's Garage" will be able to fulfill out WSSM and WSM bases big-bore cartridge/rifle fix. Maybe even in an action that you don't approve of.

Jeff

EDIT: PS - I find it difficult to view any WSSM based cartridge as a dedicated "dangerous game" cartridge. As with many things, YMMV.

Good Luck!
Michael

Mike,

Good luck to you too!

Jeff

PS - What is your Company's slogan? I'd bet that the boys here could come up with some that will really stick in your potential customers' minds.

Nahh, don't have a "Company Slogan" per say!

I have a few of my own however!

Michael

700 dollars for that work with SSK providing the barrel is not a bad price at all IMHO and experience for top quality work

In fact is is a hell of a good price for a wildcat since you are not having to also buy the reamer

Sounds reasonable for the work, and SSK is top notch but a 416 Ruger Alaskan is around 7 bills for the whole rifle. Action, stock, sights, factory ammo or standard dies... might end up being a couple grand less overall. Now if it was "turn key", then hell yes, even 6 grand more is considered a good deal in these waters...apparently.

TC

Hi TC

Yes, it would be hard to compete with the 416 Ruger. About the only real advantage to the B&M in direct comparison is the size of the B&M version, and to ME the fact it is a Winchester M70. I am not sure what the Ruger weighs in at, but a 416 B&M with an Ultimate stock will come in at 6.5 lbs with a 20 inch barrel, 6.25 with a 18 inch barrel.

Without doubt the Ruger is a cheaper way to go, and nothing to do or say about that. But I will say the B&M came before the Ruger--HEH!

Michael

Michael...Your line of cartridges is well executed, and there is a lot to be said about that. I prefer the current M70 platform as well. One could start with a new Extreme Weather and end up with a very nice rifle only needing barrel and sights. It would cost more, but sometimes paying more is not a bad idea if a person ends up with what they really want. The 458 B&M looks like a compelling reason to do that.

TC

TopCat
Thanks so much, I can tell you the cartridges have far exceeded anything I expected of them from the beginning, and had no idea they would turn out like they did!

In fact, I am totally spoiled now, which has been bad for all the very nice Win M70s I have in 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, 416 Remington, and 458 Winchester, all retired and will never go to the field again! Until one actually puts an 18 or 20 inch B&M in the hands it's nearly impossible to grasp the concept by talking about it, or viewing photos. Once in hand, then it's all over from that point, and comparing side by side with a standard 9.5 24 inch barrel rifle, then everything really goes out the door at that point.

A friend Ron Berry built a 458 B&M on one of the new Extreme Weather guns and he loves it. I have not done so on one of the new Win M70s yet.

Of course no cartridge or rifle is worth it's salt without a good bullet. So I have been working hard for the last year or so for really supreme bullet performance. North Fork now makes bullets specifically for several of the B&M cartridges, as well as Cutting Edge Bullets. They are incredible, and enhance the performance of the rifles and cartridges immensely.

Thanks
Michael

SSK is providing a top of the line barrel with the action squared and blue printed. That's is worth the money to me