For those who have had both, which do you prefer and why? Planning a med to long range tactical style rifle, and can't seem to decide. My smith has never worked with a surgeon, but had a defiance on the shelf I was able to handle. I liked the feel of it, but was wondering if the surgeon was better. Open to any other suggestions in that class of action as well. Thanks!

Both are very good actions. I would lean towards a Surgeon for your intended use.

I have both & I favor the Surgeon. Its built like a tank, has integral recoil lug & picatinney rail, and the bolt runs very smoothly.

They are both great actions but if want something that is bomb-proof, I'd go with the Surgeon!!

If you want what some consider THE BEST action out there, check out BAT actions, especially the VRPIC and the HRPIC - these both have an integral recoil lug and picatinney rail. The VRPIC is a short action while the HRPIC is a long action. I have a HRPIC on order for my next build.

What cartridge?

have had both like surgeon better....

6mm Crusader is going to be the cartridge, and I intend to have the action cerakoated, so wasn't sure the BAT was the right choice. Thanks for the replies, keep em coming!

If you are building a crusader you might want to think about a long action.

If you use the BAT, leave the bolt polished stainless or have it nitrided = no problems!!

Couple things to consider, the surgeon will use a Rem 700 extractor on their .478 bolt face, the Defiance rebel will use a mini M16 pinned extractor, I have a buddy that has a Surgeon and I have a Defiance and to me the bolt runs quite a bit smoother than a Surgeon, after a while the Surgeon will likely smooth out from working the bolt, their both great platforms for building a tactical rifle!

The M16 pinned extractor grows on you like the one piece bolt handle.
Does the surgeon 591 have a one piece bolt?
I cant comment on the Surgeon as i've never seen one.But its hard to imagine a smoother action than a defiance.



dave

The Surgeon handle is one piece..

I've got several rifles built on both actions and like them both.

You won't make a bad decision either way. As far as smoothness goes, with use, they both get really nice.

I can post a few pics of both actions if you want to compare them head to head....

One thing that is nice with the Surgeon that they just started doing is the bolt to raceway clearances tighten up as the bolt is put into battery, basically accomplishing what the "Borden Bumps" do!

Scenarshooter,

I have been trying to decide between these two as well. I think the pics would help.

Thanks!!!

Yes, please on the pics. I have drooled over enough pictures of your guns before, why stop now!

On the Defiance, can you have the bolt nitrided? I am leaning toward getting a Defiance, and would like to cerakote the body, just wondered what to do with the bolt.

Call GAP and see what their using to coat their bolts, or just have Melonited!

Melonite. Black and slick.

Yes you can get the bolt melonited (nitrided)..........Black Ops Rifles (formerly Underground Skunkworks) is doing it to his bolts = His actions are made by Defiance Machine.

When I ordered my BAT action, they actually suggested that I have the action & bolt nitrided since it's going to be used on a hunting rifle. Who was I to argue.....it's getting done!!

These are both Defiance actions built in .260.

Surgeon bolt is on the left...

Surgeon action, Mcmillan Remington Hunter stock, .308.



Surgeon XL in .338 Lapua Magnum.

Good choice !!

of course I might be bias !!

Another nice thing about the Defiance actions, is it has better extraction camming system!

Here's my Surgeon 591:










She shoots like this:

what kind of bottom metal is that?? I don't recall seeing that type of release before.

I think the bottom metal is R&D precision on scenar shooters rig. Just a guess though. APA puts out a similar bottom metal. Defiance machine just started making the best looking AICS system I have seen, but the price tag was enough to scare me away. Thanks for the pics guys, keep em coming!

Robert Gradous sure builds super accurate rifles, and his attention to detail is amazing!

Badger M5 with the RAD Tac latch is what it is.

Just goes to show how much I know about bottom metal....
Thinking I will call Defiance tomorrow and tell them to send me one of their templar models. Thanks everyone for helping out!!
Now to decide on a scope.....

TB... I only know that cause I know Scenar..

TBurroughs,

If you want the Templar action, you'll have to get it from GA Precision (GAP) - the Templar is their own design made for them by Defiance Machine.

GAP will not just sell the action alone - you'd have to buy at least a barreled action from them or have them build you a full custom rifle.

Defiance Machine will sell you an action that is close to the Templar, but not exact. You'll still be good to go!!!

what are the differences

Cumminscowboy,

Not really sure, but here's the write up from GAP's website about the Templar action - hope it helps!!



GAP "Templar� Short and Long actions specs as compared to Rem 700:

*Receiver body is hardened 416 Stainless Steel

*Tang is thicker and then radius-ed so it still fits a Model 700 style stock nicely

*Caming / Unlocking has 35% more engagement

*Precision Ground Recoil Lug is double pinned

*Steel 20 MOA Base, attached with 4 8-40 Tapered Head grade 8 T-15 screws

*Bolt stop has been changed to the GAP Style side release

*Raceway is Wire EDM'ed instead of broached

*Manufacturer of our action is Glen Harrison, Defiance Machine LLC. Glen was the founder and former president/owner of Nesika Bay Precision before selling it to Dakota Arms. Glen is a pleasure to deal with and we are very pleased with the actions he is making for us.

*The primary extraction is increased by 35% this means that upon opening the bolt the case is pulled out of the chamber 35% more just upon opening, this makes for very smooth bolt cycle. This change is both in the receiver and the bolt.

*The bolt/handle is now 100% one piece, its machined from a solid piece of 4320 CM and heat treated.

*The knob itself is the only part that is threaded on via 5/16 x 24 threads

*The handle is swept back a tad, Not straight for ease of operation.

*Extractors are M-16 type and stronger than other designs

*Bolt is .750 Diam for 338 Lapua and Rigby based cartridges

*Available in Left Hand, Single Shot, Left Port Etc.