Thanks to Dober and Bob, I played with the 7 Mashburn a little and it helped develop my new wildcat 7mm. There were a couple things I didn't like about a straight 7/300WM, mainly the short neck. A RUM case gave to much case capacity and wouldn't work well with "extreme" powders, 375 Ruger case was a pain to neck and form.

I found that there was a fairly common relationship between neck length, bullet diameter and shoulder angle on the recent "accuracy" cartridges. I new what the Mashburn and 7 Rem Mag would run for velocity when I changed the throat angle and length for the VLD bullets. So I applied all this info to my design based on the readily available 300WM case. The design gives a few grains capacity over the Mashburn, and like the Mashburn, is very forgiving to load for. The result was, a 180 Berger at 3200fps in a 27" barrel. So far the test batch of brass has been loaded 9 times and the primer pockets are still tight. Now I can put the "real" rifle together with our new stock design and continue "testing" during hunting season!

Do I think its better than a Mashburn? Still torn on that one. The Mashburn has history, nostalgia, and panache. This is just another option that gives a little boost. I will continue to build both!

Here are some pics of the 7mm Rogue on the left vs a 7 Rem Mag on the right.

Accuracy


Test Rifle

i like it! nice looking set up too.

Its a 7mm Mashburn Improved.


Nice looking cartridge and rifle.

Slightly different shoulder angle, neck length and body taper. So I guess it could be a Mashburn Improved.

I want one!

That looks really sweet!

Have you by chance tried it with any other bullets or set it up to be an "exclusive" for VLDs?

I admire your ingenuity.

Travis whats the stock look like? any pics of them?

I haven't run it with any lighter bullets yet. I will now that I know it works well with the 180's, I'll run some 160's through it. I would project around 3300 with the 160 class bullets.

Still waiting on the new stock...it is a joint project with Manner's. Should have it in the next week or so hopefully

would it be along the same lines as the grey bull?

What are you going to sell me the "Test Rifle" for? Really sweet. I'd like one. Should be a long range hammer at those speeds.

Lee

The stock will be a vertical grip with a narrower forend, similar to the Greybull or A3, but with some ergonomic tweeks. Can't really take the credit for it. Tom asked for some suggestions and then is running with it.


Ebby, the test rifle has been with me for along time and has worn out 15-20 barrels in its lifetime. Pretty sure she will never leave! Might just change shapes and configurations a little.

Ha. Yeah I figured. Playing with you a little. Nice looking round. How does it compare with the STW? Obviously 300 WM parent case vs 8mm mag, but just curious about other differences.

I have burned up 8-9 STW barrels, and I have a bunch of experience with them. This one and the Mashburn do virtually the same thing with less powder. This one runs within 30fps of my STW with the same length barrel with 8gr less powder.

Thats impressive to say the least Travis! The STW you built me is amazing wish i would have waited a little longer for you to design this one, what powder are you using in the ROGUE? But I do have to ask this, if you had a reamer with the same throat angle and everything setup for the vlds in a 7mm STW do you think the ROGUE would still compete with it or would the stw move up to RUM speeds?

Using H1000 in the Rogue. It seems to work better than Retumbo and is more consistent.

My STW reamer has the same throat angle, but not length. It would speed up a little with a longer throat, but takes a much slower powder to do so. From what I found, until one goes to a 30" barrel, the 7RUM and the STW are about equal. The STW is a great round, I was just looking for something a little more efficient is all.

I understand what your trying to do and fully agree with you 7mm ROGUE is shorter COAL than the STW and about equals its performance thats a neat round travis great work. Can't wait to see some pics of the new stock when you get some in.

If you have a minute put up a pic of the Rogue the Mash and the RM.

And, thx for the update.

Good work

Dober

TMR, are you single feeding these? If not, what's your COAL look like, and what Bottom metal are you using?

Standard BDL bottom metal. OAL is 3.65-3.7". Will just fit into a standard Remington mag box.

Oh, right on! That's pretty dang cool.

I get 6.1 mils of elevation at 1000 yards asl using the Litz model. Impressive.

Want to sell it?

At the same pressures?

Dude, seriously, rouge is warpaint chicks put on their faces.

If that's not a 'real' rifle, I can't wait to see what a real one looks like.

I wish I had a way to measure pressure. I do know that I am at 9 loadings on this group of cases and the primer pockets are still tight. I could never get beyond 4-5 loadings on my STW brass when pushing it and using more powder.

Travis ,great work! Very impressive cartridge!

I think this is interesting.....the 7mm Mashburn Super was actually the third Mashburn 7mm wildcat,one being based on the the same type case as the 7RM and Weatherby,and another based on the FL,blown out H&H case,similar to the STW and 7mm/300 Weatherby.

What he found was that the intermediate length case,the third,did most of what the FL H&H case did,in a more "efficient" design and more than the shorter case...hence, the name 7mm Mashburn Super.

Later Bob Hagel came to the same conslusion with the 7mm/300 Weatherby,and if you dig far enough back in Rifle Magazine, you will find the article on this comparison.He found the Mashburn Super to be only slightly exceeded with the heavy 175 gr bullet, but not at all with 160's and down.

What I find interesting is that Travis has obviously put a lot of shop and range time into this and has come to basically the same conslusions....even with the passage of 60+ years and more modern propellants.

Apparently there is a "sweet spot" in 7mm magnum capacity,and materially exceeding it does not necessarily provide signifcanttly more velocity...or at least not enough more to make it worthwhile in barrel lengths customariy used for hunting.

I like that Travis optimized the throat length and angle specifically for the 180 gr bullet....3200 for that slug is very impressive and I will bet it packs the mail.

Which is "better", the Rogue or the Mashburn, is really pretty moot...what is significant in my mind is that both Art Mashburn and Travis did the homework to optimize a 7mm magnum :)as a potent LR hunting rig using commonly available (300 Win Mag) brass,that fits handily into many commonly available actions...that their work is separated by 60 odd years tells us that a good idea is still a good idea regardless when it was done.

Now wildcatters have something else to choose when looking to optimize 7mm Magnum performance.

Kudos ,Travis! Nice work!

Thanks Bob! Mashburn hit in on the head with the correct ratio for sure. This design just kinda integrates it with the modern accuracy cartridges and propellants. I have played with alot of 7mm wildcats, including ones based on 338 Lapua Imp cases. This one and the Mashburn are by far the most efficient that I have found.

Here is a pic of a comparison. You can see, the 7 Rogue has a little capacity edge on the Mashburn, but not much.

From Left to Right...7 Rem Mag, 7 Mashburn, 7 Rogue

Travis,

That's a beauty! Both the rifle and the cartridge look great! How much you want for one?

I've got a 7 RM ADL that I'll volunteer to get punched.... all in the name of research of course....

+1

I'm very interested in this cartridge...

Comparison pic is on page 3

Neck length doesn't look too different to the naked eye, but that shoulder angle sure is. Looks like a Mashburn AI

Did you develop the specs all on your own and have a reamer/dies made up?

How are you forming, did you have a case forming die built our are you just using the FL, fireform, FL method that many are using on the Mash now?

Could you post a pic of the reamer print?

thanks
dave

Sorry, the reamer is proprietary to us, so I won't be posting a pic of it.

The neck is a little shorter than the Mashburn, shoulder angle is adjusted slightly but still in the 30-35* range. This moves the shoulder ahead slightly from the Mashburn and gives it a few more grains of capacity. I did develop the specs and have the reamer designed.

Forming is pretty easy. Run a 300WM case through the 7 Rogue FL sizer and shoot it. I have been running full power loads in the new brass with no issues at all. Like the Mashburn, its only blowing the case out slightly at the shoulder, so really its like a piece of virgin brass in a standard chamber.

Oh sure, hang the carrot... Very nice

W

Im a numbers guy.
For me building a rifle without seeing a print, would be like buying a car without seeing it.
In either case, something I would never even consider
Just not how I roll.
Good luck with your project.

dave

Good thing..... 'cause you're obviously not a linguist....

Tool and die makers cant spell.
dave

You're a tool and die maker...... and asked for a drawing of the reamer? Wow.....

Your point?

dave

You're a 'numbers guy'..... do the math....

"numbers guy"
Yep,thats me.
Well, thank you very much.
All compliments accepted.


dave

Very interesting cartridge.

But I'm not touching the name with a ten foot pole.

Finally had a chance to get the more "final" version of the 7mm Rogue finished up late last night. Still waiting on the new stock design, but bear season is approaching so I dropped it in an extra McMillan A-3 I had laying on the shelf. Broke her in today and am happy with the little tweaks I made to the reamer. My reduced "forming" charges are clipping along at 3147 with a 180 Berger. Shot a nice little sub 3" group at 675yds with virgin cases with the forming load. Will most likely run through these 100 cases and then load them up with the hot load. The barrel should be stabilized by then. Hell, the reduced charge is sub 1/2moa accuracy and plenty fast.

Specs:
R Bros Rogue Action w/hunter port
Broughton R Bros spec'd contour, fluted, 1-9 twist, 27" finish
PTG Alum BDL
McMillan A-3
20MOA Alum Rail
Jewell Trigger 1.75lbs
DE Muzzle Brake
DE Cheekpiece
NF 5.5-22x50 w/UL rings

Total weight w/o the bipod is 10.5lbs
The new stock design should get it down to 10lbs or at least the same.

Very interesting indeed. Surely a well thought out LR hammer. But if you want to captivate the folks round here you got to cut that barrel down to 22", change the contour to a #1,use Crap Nor barrels, put it in a McM compact with edge fill and put a 2-8x36 Leupold on it. Me, I love it. And am man enough to handle a "grown man's" rifle. One day I hope to have need for such a tool. Cause it definitely scores more points in my book than any 6# UL pea shooter. And no doubt is way more accurate.

TMR, nice gun, congratulations on the "Blue-Print"

Well, 280A's fictional blueprint sure won't work well in Travis' wildcat IMHO Not everyone wants one of those,and I like a bit more beef myself.Nothing wrong with a 6# rifle,but I wouldn't want it chambered for a blown out 7mm that pushed 180's at 3150..

Nice thing about Travis' cartridge is you can put it up in a sporter configuration weighing about 8-8.5 pounds as well, and recoil will stay manageable,yet is nice and portable.

I don't have Travis's skill sets at real long range so that format works for me....nevertheless that is a nice rifle that Travis put together and I like the cartridge.

Kinda' unnecessary...People have recognized the usefulness in flyweight, packable rigs, and here someone else has recognized the usefulness in a heavier, more stable hammer. Totally different applications, but you've got to make a mockery of that...

That's a beautiful rifle Travis... the work you put in on that cart design is awesome.

Pard, those are some real impressive numbers on that cartridge!

Congrats for a project well thought out!

While I appreciate a light rifle, I tend to keep the flyweights in lower recoil calibers. In the Magnums, as Bob said, 8-8.5lbs is where I like them for lightweights. Even with muzzlebrakes, rifles in the 7-8lb range jump around and are not as stable. For our style of hunting, a 9-10lb rifle fits the bill. Still plenty portable, yet gives us a stable platform for longrange work.

I get a kick outta ol 280. He likes to poke fun about what folks like to " custom order/build". He acts like everyone does it that way too. He's the one that's always giving his 2 cents about why short barrels and why light guns. He just as obnoxious about long barrels and giving input that was never asked for....laffin.

That is a awesome build/ chambering.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
I've had a few customs. The first done before I ever knew the 24HCF even existed. Yeah it was HEAVY. Maybe too heavy. But it was a dual purpose rig and it worked well. When I built my last rifle I laid out the blueprint, and darn near every reply for a short while revolved around "shorten the barrel, thinner contour, McM edge, talley lw", etc. Not saying you were one of those, Kaleb. I have been around a few LW rigs. And while handy, they just didnt shoot worth a darn for whatever reason. And a LW rig that I cant operate to my satisfaction is worthless. But to hear most here tell it, if you dont build certain calibers a certain way, its WRONG. The rifle TMR has pictured is about as perfect a setup as it gets. I'm still young enough and physically able to be very mobile with such a setup no matter what caliber its in. The 7-08 Im working on now, I have been told by several, TOO HEAVY. The barrel too long. Laminated stock going to make it too heavy. Scope too heavy. Thats why I enjoy stirring the pot. But enough of that. There are a few places where I hunt that the Rogue could come in handy. And hopefully one day I can have me a true LR hammer.

i am ready to send my rifle out for a rechamber as soon as your ready,,,,
the Rogue awaits,

Exciting!


300, what rifle will you rechamber?

Sounds good. So, its looking like I will have formed brass for this critter as well available with the dies. Have some samples of properly head stamped stuff in manufacturing, but it could be upwards of 6 months from what they are telling me to get the samples, then I will need to test it out first. So, in the mean time, there will be formed Winchester brass for a small fee. She continues to test out well, so its looking like after hunting season we will get rolling on outside builds.

Shoulda dubbed it the 7mm Mashed Potato.

i have a custom built 7mm rem mag by SSG , its my long range coyote gun, been looking at the 7 mashburn or a standard 7-300 win mag for a year or 2, i like the looks of this ROGUE quite a bit

This may of been covered but what are the die costs for the Rogue? And is RCBS or Redding willing and ready to do them?

Thx
Dober

Yeah, what he said. I have a pretty serious dislike for Hornady dies.

I think that Redding will make dies for it;far as I know the first two sets of 7mm Mashburn Super dies they made were for my friend and myself,made with cases fired in our rifles, so they are willing to start a project from scratch.

Of course I think RCBS will do them as well, I bet.The form/trim,and FL dies for the Mashburn are standard catalog items with them.The Rogue is not too much different so shouldn't be a problem.

BTW there something wrong with Hornady dies? I have never owned them.

Redding will have the print and cases soon for a quote. They are more expensive than the hornady dies. The hornady dies will be $130 -$150 for the set. The reddings will probably be closer to $200 based on their initial quote.

Bob, I don't know that there is anything wrong with Hornady dies, but I am just so used to using the Reddings and RCBS that adjusting to something different makes me grumble. Plus, the only die that I've ever stuck a case in is a Hornady. I know it's operator error, but I'm a bit superstitious about stuff like that.
I'd pay the extra $50-$70 for Redding.

KDK: I understand...

Bob-I've had two sets of Horn dies (at least that I recall) and both were PIA's in one mammer or another. I will not buy another set...

Just my way and it sure don't have to be others ways.

Dober

Dober it's all news to me...for some crazy reason I have never had any.....I must like green boxes or something...

Smart man...you have wisdom beyond your years.

Dober

Redding FL dies don't have a air bleed hole like RCBS dies do!

I got out the 264 Win. Mag. box of dies and brass to get that rifle going. I found the decapping pin gone from the RCBS box and a note saying to find it in the 7mm WSM box.

There was a Redding box right there for the 264 ready to use. I put the Redding FL die in the press instead and the first case got a big dent in its shoulder.

No air bleed hole!

I found the decap pin for the RCBS dies and put them to work.

No dents.

Was looking at this "wildcat" with interest like others and saw some similarities to the 7mm "Practical" designed by a gentleman in NZ ~2010 with 300WM length, 30 Degree shoulder, and slightly longer neck than 7mmRM. I believe there is still factory taper to case walls however. He demonstrates some pretty impressive performance on his website... ballisticstudies.com . All good stuff!!! I believe he still uses factory 7mmRM dies to "neck size" the cartridge.

The 7mm Practical uses the same reference point as a 300WM for firing forming. This gives is basically the same neck length as the 300WM. He was hoping for the neck to grow out longer, but after 5-6 firings it hadn't grown much and the case was done. It does have more capacity than the 7 Rogue by 3 grains if I remember correctly. I have a reamer for it as well that I tested. It did give great performance, but was a little more finicky at times. We shared alot of info back and forth on results. For sizing, a universal Hornady neck sizer is what was used. It was a great design, and I would have stuck with it, but I wanted to test a theory I had on the recent generation of accuracy cartridges combined with our throat design. Playing with these things is fun. Already working on a new 6mm to fill a special niche that I need.


On the dies, I to prefer Redding most of the time. The Hornady dies work, but Redding seems to have a little higher quality control and I can get their comp seater die, which is among the best out there. Long term, that is probably the direction I go.

Glad I got my build order in last winter. Hope the redding die quote comes in .

Trueblue for what cartridge?

Trueblue is going to be one of my test pilots for the 7 Rogue. He has been a great friend and customer for years, so he is going to help test it out this fall during hunting season.

nice job. let us know how it works out

I bet it works!

Working out very well so far. Shot a 4.8" 3 shot group at 1027yds over the weekend with the forming loads from a bipod. Making first round hits all the way out was pretty consistent. Looking like I am really going to like this one! Accurate and forgiving...just what I was looking for.

Sounds like sub 1/2 moa Great shooting. Enjoy your new Seven

That sounds like a very cool cartridge. I love the 7mm's..