P.O. Ackley and the Wildcat Game

It seems that, right or wrong. whenever the topic of wildcats come up, the name P.O. Ackley is sure to follow.
 
 My questions are these:
 
 1] Have you actually taken the time to read Ackley's books?
 
 2] What did you think in general, and with what did you agree and disagree in particular?
 
 3] Do you own an AI chambered rifle?
 
 4] Would you consider one?
 
 5] Which AI caliber sticks out in your mind?
 
 My answers are:
 
 1. Not yet (a serious lapse on my part).
 
 2. Comments reserved pending reading.
 
 3. Not yet.
 
 4. Hell yes!
 
 5. I was very hot for a .25-06 AI, but the .257 WSM has my attention now. I think I would go for a .375 H&H AI.
 
 This wildcat stuff is definitely addicting and fun!
 
 Rick
 
 P.S.: Honey, if you read this, blame it on Big Stick, Eremicus, and Ken Howell. [Linked Image]

. Oh, and I'll get the trash now. [Linked Image]

Have not read Ackley's writing. Did get a chance to look through his Volume 1$2, but did not really get in to it deeply. Actually had a 450 Mag (as Ackley called it) that was built by Parker Ackley in 1959. Was built on a P17 action and had a stainless steel barrel that was blued. Had the most unigue muzzle brake I have ever seen. The brake was actually made from the barrele blank as the barrel was turned down tothe muzzle. The very end of the muzzle brake was threaded and screwed on like a bolt. There was a gap beteen the internal part of the brake and the end of the muzzle. This was actually more of an expansion chamber than it was a brake, but had the same effect as a brake. On top of the brake were 4 half-moon shaped slots.
 
 Have also owned a 35 Whelen AI that was built on a P17.

R1ck, I have both books and have read parts in them. I have also tried some of his loads and frankly got nervous. Shall I say that they are on the optimistic side. On 3 different loads even with a drop tube and holding the case against a running tumbler, I couldn't fit the bullet deep enough to chamber. I only used one load of his in the 7x57 AI. and afterwords I pulled the bullets on the other 4 shells as I happen to respect that certain rifle. Some of them are quite warm(HOT). The 7x57AI. is simple to load for. I also tried loads for the 35 Whelen and a 7x57 mauser that were a little generous. They did not match his advertized figures. That is the only expereience that i've had with AI cartriges. I feel that he was a genius in the workings and promoting of wildcat cartriges.

Rick I have read both Ackley books several times. when I was growing up my father was a friend of Mr. Ackley so he had his books in first addition. He saved a few letters from P.O.Ackley. Some day I hope to aquire this memobilia. I do have a rifle that Ackley barreled for my father, this rifle is a 458x2 american, a cartridge Barnes developed, it has PO Ackley stamped on the barrel. I would like to have met Mr. Ackley my self.
 
 Bullwnkl.

Well no I have not read his books but I have put together a few. I own a 243AI and 7-08AI. Both custom rifles extremely accurate and easy to load for.
 
 243AI: Rem 700S/A, 23.5" Pac-Nor SS #4 bbl(10 twist) in a McMillan BDL sporter stock -gray w/blk & tan swirl mixed in. Action & bbl KG Gun-Koted. Leupold 4.5X14AO in matte blk
 
 7-08AI: Rem 700S/A, 22.5" Pac-Nor SS #2.5 bbl(11twist) in a McMillan Mtn Rifle stock, drk blue w/gray & blk swirl mixed in. RifleBasix trigger at 2.5lbs. Action KG Gun-Koted, bbl glass -beaded. Leupold 2.5X8 in DD mounts
 
 What I don't like about the Ackleys is all the naysayers who put em down when they did not load or spec their rifles correctly. Take the 30/06AI, probably the most controversial AI cartridge in my opinion. I questioned a negative poster over on Accurate Reloading on his experience with the 06AI(By E-mail) After relaying to me the powders he used I could see why- he used all the fast ball powders for 180gr bullets. And in a 22" bbl. I've done alot of research on the 06AI and learned its best to go with a 24"+ bbl and stick with the slower powders(RL-22,H4831) Chris at Pac-Nor assured me of a 150fps gain and he has shot a 06AI for years. For me, a 100fps gain is worthwhile so I am going to build one. Wait I know about the 300WSM or 300RSUM but I already have an 06 700action. Try finding a 700 S/A with a Mag boltface.
 
 For me a big plus of the 308 class of improved cartridges is the availability of Lapua brass. Costs a little more but is well worth it considering what Rem & Win brass mills have been turning out lately(.463" case webs!) You can load this brass to 65,000psi, it is strong indeed! Lapua also makes 06 brass another big plus. Right now I'm prepping 308win brass for my 7mm08AI. Necking down to 7mm, fireforming w/cream of wheat and then turning the necks slightly for that perfect fit. Velocities should be excellent w/RL-15 and 140gr bullets. I am a newly wildcat addict and admit it. Now where do I go for treatment? Mtn Hunter

"P.S.: Honey, if you read this, blame it on Big Stick, Eremicus, and Ken Howell." Don't blame it on me, Rick! I'd never recommend an Ackley "Improved' to anybody.
 
 Now I have to defang the inevitable allegation that I have no experience with an Ackley cartridge (I do -- with a nice custom 1903 Springfield sporter) or that my rifle wasn't chambered to the correct specs (Ackley did it). But that's an old story, already told on another board, where it brought down wagon loads of fresh manure onto me. So there's nothing to gain by repeating it here. Extremely unpleasant, personally abusive posts would inevitably follow.
 
 We now have better powders for both of these versions of the '06 than those I could get in 1955. Even so, the improvement of the Ackley rechambering is slight. Compare the results below, in a modern .30-06 rechambered to the Ackley version. Both sets of data come from the same bullet (180-grain Nosler) and the same seating, in a 24-inch barrel, at the same maximum peak pressure. The slight increases in velocity are understandable, since fire-forming the cases to the Ackley chamber increased the water capacity of the .30-06 from 68.2 to 69.3 grains -- not a great capacity increase (that's an increase of only about 0.95 grain of powder).
 
 H-414 -- 2,870 ft/sec to 2,880 ft/sec
 W-760 -- 2,850 ft/sec to 2,860 ft/sec
 H-380 -- 2,780 ft/sec to 2,800 ft/sec
 
 Notice that the greatest velocity increase occurred with the least productive of these three powders and didn't match the velocities produced by the other two powders. Other powders failed to produce comparable velocities at the same peak pressures, so presumably these are three of the best powders for either the original or the Ackley version of the .30-06.
 
 I found the 40� shoulder troublesome. The necks of the cases frequently 'turtle-necked" (collapsed into the shoulder during the seating of the bullet).
 
 None of this negates the basic advantages of other truly improved cartridges. Extending the body of the case forward produces a good bit more real improvement than merely blowing-out the body and increasing the shoulder angle. There's VERY little difference, for example, between the capacity increases of the 30� and the 40� shoulder angles. Also, the smaller the difference between the shoulder and neck diameters, the less a meaningful increase in capacity is even possible.

I've read his books. I must agree with Dr. Howell. For me, they are too much trouble.
 When I go up in case capacity, I like a good jump. Why go to a .280 AI when the 7 mm Mag case offers more.
 His ballistic claims were sometimes exaggerated. Usually due to other persons testing his creations.
 I do give him high marks for stimulating thinking that lead to improvements.
 BTW, he marketed some excellent solid base bullets for a while. Not far from today's Throphy Bonded bullets, if I remember correctly.
 I must admit, I never thought I'd own a wildcat. Then that Stick guy posted about his .25-284 on a Rem 600 action. And, as fate would have it, a 660 Rem (same action) appeared for sale at a then local gun shop. Bought the rifle, and I was off. It was a .308. I never even fired a shot out of it. I don't regret one little bit of the whole process.
 Except that I found out just what is possible in a custom rifle. Lord, Save Me. I want to send my guns, with factory barrels to Pac-Nor. I want to throw away my factory stocks and buy McMillians. I even want to rebuild my .5 MOA heavy eight. Mind you, it works fine. I just want something different. A Mk.4 M3 scope wouldn't hurt either.
 That's enough ranting from me. E

I'm very guilty,of liking the "Improved" case designs.
 
 I've shot many cartridges,in their "regular" and Improved flavorings. To date,I have yet to twist one up,that didn't leave me less than thrilled.
 
 Today I finally got my heavy barreled 7-08 in the Mail. With it,was a friends 22" barreled 280Ackley. Few would guffaw the 7-08,but the 280AI will be subject to much ridicule.
 
 I understand why he built it and very much side with that decision. It will offer more juice than the 280 and the 7mmRemMag requires more barrel length. His 280AI,is a very lightweight rifle(skeletonized S/S Rem700,S/S Gentry base/rings,Leupold 6xCompact w/turret and wears a PacNor Mtn Contour S/S blank,all tucked in a light filled McMillan Rem Mtn rifle pattern). I'm betting it will deliver the 120X at a minimum of 3300fps,despite the short tube. It will hold 4 in the belly and brass is dirt cheap. Besides,the cases look cool(try to quantify THAT).
 
 My 25-06Ackley with a 24" tube,is the one that really suprised me the most. It's barrel is "too short",also. But it makes speeds that absolutely astounded me. I've had five 25-06's prior and had a very good feel for that cartridges capabilities. The Improved version is on another seperate page and without compare,to it's regular flavor. Ackley himself,didn't think much of that particular cartridge. All I know is,if you put Re-22 in it,combined with a 100gr projectile,it is simply stunning!
 
 I've had a herd of Improved cartridges and am always contemplating the next facet,to evaluate. On numerous barrels,I simply punched out the existing Factory chamber,to it's Improved version. I felt that to be the best way to evaluate performance gains. None of this "fast" tube vs "slow" tube stuff. It is simple,before and after. Those type of projects have left me wanting to Improve most everything.
 
 I shoot different powders than most,like different weights than most and probably have expectations that differ from most. I like minimal body taper,sharp shoulders and shortish necks,because they all effectively increase capacity.
 
 If I wasn't always in such a hurry,the Lilja barreled 7-08 I got in the Mail today,would have been a 7-08Improved. I'll shoot it for a while,until the reamer is done and have it both Improved and then fluted/frozen. I'm sure those notions,will cause many to snicker. Don't worry,I'm snickering back(grin).
 
 I shoot with an open mind and very much appreciate the attributes of the Improved case design..................

Ken Howell,
 
 You used the wrong powders! Try again with RL22, RL19, H4350, H4831 and then report your new data. I think you will be amazed but you won't post your results will you. Remember the best fps gains in the 06 AI are with the slooow powders! Take care AA leader, we still like you.

Just did a little experiment,with the 25-06Ackley.
 
 I used H-110 to find capacity of that cartridge case,as opposed to a regular 25-06 case. Both cases were from the same lot of brass and weighed the same 197.2grs empty.
 
 When filled to flush with the case mouth,the 25-06Ackley holds 70.2grs of H-110. The regular 25-06,holds 64.3grs. That is an average of three weights taken,for each cartridge case design.
 
 Pretty close,to the often touted 10% yield......................

"Try again with RL22, RL19, H4350, H4831 and then report your new data. I think you will be amazed but you won't post your results will you."
 
 Well yes, as a matter of fact, I can and will -- right here (same givens as before):
 RL-22 -- 2,520 ft/sec -- 2,550 ft/sec
 RL-19 -- 2,570 ft/sec -- 2,600 ft/sec
 H-4350 -- 2,700 ft/sec -- 2,730 ft/sec
 H-4831SC -- 2,500 ft/sec -- 2,530 ft/sec
 
 (Remember -- I said, above, that other powders didn't do as well as the ones that I cited. Also remember that I limited the slightly improved cartridge to the same maximum pressures as the original version.)
 
 "Remember the best fps gains in the 06 AI are with the slooow powders!"
 
 Do you think that the powders cited in my first post are NOT "slooow?"
 
 "Take care AA leader, we still like you."
 
 If "AA" stands for "anti-Ackley," I plead not guilty. I plead guilty to being antidelusion (these days, I feel downright antediluvian, too!). And all I've learned so far has pretty well convinced me that considering a gain of only 10 to 30 ft/sec to be worth all the trouble is a delusion. The idea that the gain is substantially greater than 10 to 30 ft/sec is also a delusion. The world of fantasy can be a wonderful place to visit, but I choose not to live there.

All I want to know is who do I blame my next project on??? [Linked Image]

Actually, I was real hot for a .25-06 AI until the advent of the WSM. Now I'm glad I didn't build one (an AI that is). I'm firmly on the WSM bandwagon now.
 
 Rick

257WSM Ackley Improved?...........(grin)

This month's American Rifleman has a well illustrated article on the .270 WSM. Read it, and drool. E

An anonymous coward wrote:
 
 "I think you will be amazed but you won't post your results will you."
 
 This is positively the most chicken [bleep] post I think I've ever seen in any forum. You don't even have the gonads to use your online nickname. Much less the integrity to use your real name.
 
 Shame on you
 
 Scott

Hi Rick and others,
 
 I am back posting. I felt uncomfortable using my name, now have a handle.
 
 I have read the two book set cover to cover.Have even reread some article. Many interesting things there. Talking about some of them in the past got things stirred up nicely.
 I also noticed that he talked about a bullet used in a 220 swift that is similar to the trophy bonded bullet. It was in the chapter on killing power or some similar topic.
 
 One thing that frustrates me was leaving out an important detail on almost all of the printed load data. THE BARREL LENGTH!!!!
 
 I think he had many good ideas, but improved too many cases.
 --------Some would only have the advantage of longer case life, according to his writings, something I do not know by experience.
 ---------Perhaps some barrels would last longer with the sharper shoulder angle. it was mentioned that the powder would converge in the neck instead of the beginning of the barrel with a sharp shoulder angle. Again I cannot prove or disprove based on MY experiences.
 --- the one concept I have been burned on dealt with twist rate. He said a great deal of energy was consumed in the twist. Less twist, I figure would be a good thing and could help gain some velocity. Lazzeroni does this. Of course the bullet must be stabilized. Faster bullets tend to use less twist. care to argue this?
 
 I don't have an Ackley improved cartridge. I do have the closest thing with two rifles chambered in 284 win. The first factory AO improved case. I cannot tell if the cases last longer or the barrels as mentioned before, because I have no reference. I still have to trim the cases, as I do not neck size but partially fl size.
 
 I always thought the 257 roberts AO improved to be his best. I jsut got a 25-06 with a 26 inch barrel that begs to be improved. Who would take my barreled action and do a reasonably priced job?
 
 Nice to be back....Ross L.

I had the pleasure of dealing with Ackley after he had basically retired but he would still do a little custom work. He was indeed a jewell. Apparently cranky as a nursing sow bear but if you wanted a square bored barrel of .632 diameter, with a single groove gain twist, chambered to a .22 LR necked up, he would do it for you at a very low cost and have the work back in a very short time, together with a letter telling you why it was such a silly project. He generally admitted that his wildcats didn't offer much if anything over standard calibers. His .250AI is about his most effecient "improved" design and the 7X57 AI was reasonable too. His answers were always typed on an old elite typewriter, sort of like Elmer Keith's, misspellings, over-strikes and all. He made my .411/.458 and returned it in about 2 weeks with a note saying I didn't need to worry about an aimed follow up shot (this was made for bear protection) because the first shot would knock me silly. Charged $61.00 as I recall. And he was about right as the recoil is fierce. I still have some of our correspondence. I had him rebore a rusty .30/40 Krag, Krag out to .35/.30/40. It rattled when I opened the package and I discovered he hadn't screwed the barrel back into the action other than finger tight. I traded that off but still have a .17, a .25/222, and the .411 (lovingly named "Big Thump") he made for me. Yes, his load recommendations must of came from his or someone's hat but then too, he does list loads for cartridges which you can find no where else, just start well below what he lists. So far as I know, there is no one like him doing gun work today. Ol Grouch

" So far as I know, there is no one like him doing gun work today."
 
 A good friend of mine in Virginia sent Virgin Valley a Hall falling-block action and a Dan Lilja barrel blank -- had 'em fit and chamber the barrel and mill it to twelve flats, with integral quarter rib. What he got back was a nicely machined barrel just finger-tight in the receiver. Turning it in tight would turn the quarter-rib past top dead center.

Ken,
 
 Did Virgin Valley eventually make it right?
 
 Scott

1) Not yet
 2) No comment, see 1
 3) Yes, 35 whelen AI*
 4) Already Have
 5) -06 is the one that comes to mind most, one of the more esoteric would be the 17 ackley hornet.
 
 * My experience with the 35 whelen AI has been mixed. I have only achieved accurate groups at high pressure, I venture to say a strain gauge would rate it as unsafe levels.
 
 When fireforming brass, it is easy to set the shoulder back, thus causing headspace problems, and case/head seperations.
 
 The nearly straight cases just don't feed as well as a gentler slope. May be good for BR, or BS, but for a hunting rifle, I want something that feeds smooth.
 
 I'm planning on re-chambering to a 350 Rigby Rimless Magnum, will provide a larger case for milder pressures, decent body taper for smooth feeding, and will not be a wildcat, not that it matters as factory fodder is essentially unavailable w/ the 350 rigby.
 
 I honestly think the expense of re-chambering and new reloading dies, as well as the work to fireform cases just isn't worth the meager velocity gains. If you are gaining 150-200 fps, it's because you are running the pressures up, not do to increase of case capacity or "efficient burn". If you think otherwise, you are just kidding yourself. If you want a faster gun, then get one by signifigantly increasing the size of the case!

Mr Howell,
 
 It is a pity that you print misinformation about the 06 AI. You are indirectly labeling Chris of Pac-Nor, Nosler Bullet Co and a host of others a bunch of liars! Explain the data on the 06AI in Nosler#4 which does not correspond to yours. What is your motive for this misinformation? I don't recall seeing many dies for sale with the name Howell on them. Nor do I see any Howell wildcat listings in the load manuals. That Howell wildcat brass sure is expensive by Bertram brass. Funny it seems every 'smith I talk to has at least one AI reamer in his shop. How many are stocking Howell wildcat reamers? I guess all these Ackley proponents(myself included) are just overloading their improved cartridges to make a point. Mr Howell, you present a most amusing case againest the AI 06, that is a fact, nothing more, nothing less. And nothing gained! Mtn Hunter

Mtn Hunter... the info Ken spoke about were HIS experience, and may no necessarly be yours, or Nosler's or anyone elses! Don't be offended other's may have differing results then other's. He has no motive to deny other's their views, hence ain't making no one out to be a liar. His experience with a given wildcat may not be someone elses, so don't take it personal.
 He has plenty of fine wildcats that are more then just fattening up the body for slight returns. The wildcats rom AHR come to mind. You might want to check them out.
 www.hunting-rifles.com
 ~~~Suluuq

A very important question is, is the 30-06 AI data provided with listed pressure testing? And more importantly, if the -06 base data is at 55 kpsi, and the whelen ackley is at 65 kpsi, where is the speed coming from, case capacity, or pressure?
 
 From personal experience I'd say most ai performance is gained by folks loading to very high pressures, and figuring they are ok doing so. So, does that make Ken wrong?
 
 Those that attack Ken seem to do so as a way to justify to themselves their practive of loading to unsafe pressure levels. Ken is their ire, as he reports the truth and folly of that practice, yet the messanger gets it, not the message.

I've been on both sides of the fence and I very much like cartridges to sizzle.
 
 Pressure is a variable,plain and simple. Capacity is not.
 
 Some cartridges yield a higher percentage of capacity increase,than others. That due to initial case design.
 
 Is the 30-06 a sterling example,to punch out Ackley Improved? Not in my opinion. But,hey,that's me. If it lights your fire,twist one up.
 
 Other examples,lend themselves well,to such a conversion. Rather than pull hair and start the never ending "Pressure Wars". Why not discuss case capacity increase,regarding a specific Manufacture of brass?
 
 If the percentage of increase,appeals to your senses,then take the plunge. If not,disregard it and stay on the beaten path.
 
 Pretty simplistic,in my estimation.......................

"Why not discuss case capacity increase,regarding a specific Manufacture of brass? "
 
 Excellent point, Stick. I don't know which brands of brass he used in each case, but here's a friend's list of the case capacities he compared. The left-hand figure is the over-flow capacity of the factory case, in grains of water required to fill the case until it can't hold any more. The right-hand figure is ditto for the AI version (except for the .35 Brown-Whelen, which also has the shoulder blown forward as well as out).
 
 .22 Jet -------- 18.5 ----- 20
 .22 Savage ------- 35 ----- 41.6
 .22-.250 ----- 43.5 ----- 47
 .220 Swift ----- 47 ----- 47.3
 .243 ----- 54 ----- 56
 .244 ----- 55 ----- 62
 .250 Savage ----- 45.5 ----- 51
 .257 Roberts ----- 56 ----- 63
 .25-06 ----- 66 ----- 72
 .270 ----- 68 ----- 74
 .30-30 -----45 ----- 47
 .30-06 ----- 68.2 ----- 69.3
 .348 ----- 75.5 ----- 80
 .35 Whelen ----- 70.5 ----- 75.5 (Brown-Whelen, not AI)
 .375 H&H ----- 95.3 ----- 105

Recent phone conversation with Mic McPherson:
 
 Mic:" Whenever possible always go the Ackley route"
 
 Myself: "Why?"
 
 Mic:"As a tribute to the man, its simply a better mousetrap!"
 
 Myself: "Thanks Mic!"

Thanks Ken for the information. Most interesting.
 Looking at the 30-06 family only the parent does not gain much more powder space.

I get 50.0grs H2O,with my Swift Improved sample.
 The 243 Improved yields 57.6grs of H2O.
 
 The most interesting sample I just weighed,was for my 22-250Ackley's. My Remington 22-250Ackley case,weighed 160.2grs.,when empty. Filled with water,it weighed 211.4grs. That is a 51.2gr capacity,of H2O. I had some W/W cases on hand and their empty weights,were EXACTLY 5grs more than the R/P offering(165.2grs). That very much suprised me............

It is not unusual to find that two brands of brass for the same cartridge differ as much in capacity as the difference between the standard cartridge and the "improved" version of it.
 
 A fellow once showed me a product he made, with the initials "ISW" in its designation Those initials clearly didn't stand for his name, so I asked what they stood for. He looked a little sheepish, and his friend laughed -- and explained.
 
 The fellow had blown the body of a .45-70 out fully cylndrical, to see what difference he'd get in performance. He had very candidly and honestly dubbed it the ".45-70 Improved (Somewhat)." Short form: .45-70 ISW. I called and asked for case dimensions, to put the .45-70 ISW in my book -- but never got any response.

Ken,
 
 My point exactly. You take the case that offers the most capacity initially and then Improve it. That is a simplistic twofold gain...............

The only meaningful improvement I've seen is substituting (b) the "improved" case that's already more capacious (before being re-formed) for (a) the standard less-capacious case that hasn't been re-formed. A capacity increase of only 3 or 4 grains of water (about 2.6 or 3.4 grains of powder) strikes me as not enough improvement to be worth the time, cost, and exercise.
 
 IOW, whether you "improve" the brand of case with the lower capacity or the brand with the higher capacity, re-forming is still responsible for only a slight increase in capacity.

The exact numbers are out in my reloading shack somewhere,but I remember that loading my 257 Roberts to max in the hornady book with 100 gr. bullets,then doing the same thing after improving it gave me around the same velocity gain the book showed,though in each instance the actual speed was a little greater.Also,loading the std. Roberts to the point the bolt got sticky was at least 150 fps SLOWER than my regular load in the IMPROVED version.That was with 120 gr bullets as I recall.
 
 To me,that is worthwhile.

Here's what little I know. My 25-06AI cases,formed from nickle R/P cases,hold 73.6grs of water.
 
 That is enough capacitiy increase,to lend zero speculation to it's "Improvedness". The extra capacity,allows it to do things I couldn't,with the standard 25-06 chambering. That,despite the AI's "too short" 24" tube.
 
 I'm ALL ears and am always searching for a "better" way. In the examples I have built,in cartridges I have mentioned,the results obtained from the Improved case designs have made them worthwhile to me.
 
 Your mileage may vary....................

Jeez, you guys spend a lot of time and energy calling each other liars don't you?
 
 I have read the Ackley books, and I enjoyed them. There is a lot of technical info in there, that you are not really going to use often. But I tried out some of his formulas and found them to be pretty accurate (for 1950's era instruments)..
 
 Most of Ackley's Improvements are moderate shoulder enhancements that give a few percent of increased case volume and perhaps 100-200fps?
 
 I own a 450 Ackley, and I love it. This is what the 458 was supposed to be, before Winchester screwed up and tried to invent the "short magnum" concept. I have posted previously that I have used this rifle for Elephant and Buffalo, and it's performance is incredible. Lot's of range AND punch.
 I poked the Elephant tranversely, from the right hip to the left front shoulder, no problem with a A-Square solid at 2350 fps, I could get more velocity, by why? I don't know what more you could ask for.
 
 As for the loading data in Ackley's book, DO NOT RELY ON THIS. The accuracy of chronographs, and the QUALITY of powders have changed so much over the years, you should always start with a lighter load and work up. The velocities are attainable, but the correlation with the 1950's published data doesn't line up.
 
 Personally, with the introduction of newer powders, and the new Hornaday "light mag" type ammunition, I do not see the payoff with the small bores like the 30-06AI any more.. If you like to handload, that's fine (and I do), but you can get that kind of velocity out of the box, without modifying a potentially collectable and valuable firearm and hurting it's value.
 
 ... and someone very correctly mentioned barrel lengths, as in the manner that A-Square used to spec his loads with 26" barrels? Each gun is different of course, but bascially subtract 25-50fps for every inch you barrel is shortened.
 My 450 Ackley will get 2350 from a 22" barrel, and I calculate that to be 2400+ from a 24"... more than enough..

That wasn't my take,nor intent of my Posts.
 
 Often several folks see the same thing,altogether differently. That was my mindset..............

"Liars?"
 
 No
 
 Different criteria, different methods, different values = different opinions.
 
 I, for example, have invested neither positive nor negative emotion into the question. For me, it's solely a question of whether AT THE SAME PEAK PRESSURES, the AI shoulder produces enough improvement in velocity to make the conversion worth while. Others are pleased to find that they can boost velocities enough to make the AI conversion, whatever their unmeasured pressures may be.
 ____________________________
 
 While I'm at it, I should point out a couple of facts that should be obvious to every reader of ol' P O's books --
 
 P O published a passel of loads that he did not -- could not -- test for even their velocity, let alone their pressures. He published loads that he got from others. This may well be why the load I got from him for my .30-06 AI was so badly excessive even after I'd reduced it by five grains or more.
 
 In those days, we didn't have as many, as affordable, as accurate chronographs as we have today. Claimed velocities typically had no solid basis. And there was NO way the average handloader could "measure" his loads' pressures with any pretense of accuracy.

Stick,
 
 Have you ever started with a standard chamber, worked up to max, then have it improved, and work up again?
 
 Curious, as I haven't done it, but would like to know if anyone has.

223,22-250,(friend's)243,and 375H&H Ackley Improveds. That's what hooked me....................

Dr Howell,
 
 What would be the best way to determine if one were loading an "Improved" case to the same pressure levels and a "Non-Improved" case in a given cartridge?
 
 I have a .257 Roberts AI in a Ruger #1 that appears to out perform my .25-06 (std) also in a Ruger #1, both with 24" barrels. The AI rifle, with the same weight bullet (100g BT's) produces 250fps more velocity than the .25-06 using the same bullet. But if I understand some of the comments made here, it would appear that I am loading the AI cartridge to higher pressures, which makes for an unequal comparison.
 
 I know I'm not comparing apples and apples with these two cartridges, but since I reload for both and I prefer to stay under the max pressures, I'm a little concerned now after reading all these exchanges.
 
 -Mr Mike

Mr. Mike,
 
 The objective here is to kill the legend of Parker Ackley. It's the death of a thosand small knives.
 
 There was a town clerk in Windam, VT who killed over 50 bucks in his lifetime. All legal. He was also the postmaster and the deer check guy. He told me some wonderful stories about Dwight Eisenhower who came up there. I used to bring my deer there to be checked as you could be sure to have a pleasant time with the old guy.
 
 Years later I asked how he was doing and someone said "oh that old fart, he is pushing a walker around the rest home down in Townsend, I don't think he knows where he is" !
 
 So there it goes. I suppose someone will spit on my grave.
 
 Ol Harry shot a rem 721 in .270.

Don,
 You will surely dance on the flames of Predition!

I've got a 257 AI in a 722 rem.I've heard it will beat the 25 06 with lighter bullets.I dont worry much about pressures in my NO. ONES -maybe I should- since the ejector won't kick them out if they get very hot.I see some loads listed for the 7 ultra,for instance,that are ok in bolt rifles,but I have to back off because of ejection problems in this Texas heat.

1] Have you actually taken the time to read Ackley's books? Yes.
 
 Two Volumes and a loader's guide/catalog circa 1950. I've also talked to a couple of people who worked with P.O. in Holiday, Utah--what a shop!
 
 2] What did you think in general, and with what did you agree and disagree in particular?
 
 Case shape does seem to play a part in pressure management. Many of the loads which I have tired are too hot with current canister powders in the rifles I have tired. Also many loads are also too hot with powder lots and varieties from the 1960's. I have loaded and shot a 7x57 AI and a couple of '06 AI which have lived up to thier press and load data.
 
 3] Do you own an AI chambered rifle? I own an Ackley 22/250 40 Degree AI. It is a fine varmit cartridge. When this one needs a new barrel, it will be replaced with the same cartridge.
 
 4] Would you consider (another) one? Yes.
 
 5] Which AI caliber sticks out in your mind? I'd most like to redo a Ruger 7x57 I have and throat for 140 Nosler BT's seated to the base of the neck. This might be an interesting project.

I have a pile of AIs and I like them all.The 280 AI is the one I like the best.With 150g bullets or less it will do anything a 7 mag will do with about 6g less powder.Less powder less blast less recoil same performnce.I like that.
 The only thing ive been able to find about the AI cartridges
 that I dont like is after several firings with hot loads the cases will get tight in the chamber.I have never been able to "move" a 40 degree shoulder on a AI case with a sizing die.The case wall directly behind the shoulder will buckle but the 40degree will not move.On my 280 AI this was about
 7 to 8 reloads.As I have a "blowout" gun just for blowing cases I never cared.The flip side of this is the 6MM PPC
 It has a 30 degree shoulder and I have shot some of these cases well over 100 times.The 30 degree shoulder can be moved anywhere you want.No problem.
 In the 16 years now I have been carrying a 280 Ackley Improved Ive never found anything I like better.
 It can be beat.But the price is less barrel life more blast
 more recoil for little real gain.
 Bigstick the 25 Booboo is operational !!!
 How does 71g of Rel 22 with a 100g partition sound to you
 shot a solid 1 moa at 300 Sunday
 have to find out where the boogie man lives with Rel 22 yet
 
 dave