I finally caved in to a long time urge to own a 223 AI and now I am on the hunt for load data.
Any info on 50 to 75 grain bullets would be great.
I know a bunch of you guys are running 223 AIs so I'm looking forward to hearing from you all. Any other pointers about loading the round would be helpful too.
Also does anybody have a link to some of steve timm's writings about this round?
Thanks guys
Cant speak for the 75s but my "go to" load for conventional 50-55 grainers is 28.0 Gr. IMR 4895 I shoot mainly 50 gr. Vmax and 55 gr. Hornady SP
My "go to" load for deer and the like is 28.5 Gr. H335 and a Barnes 55TTSX
I was hoping you would chime in ingwe, who better to give advice than the man the round is named after
.
Why do you not like H335 for the conventional bullets?
I seem to remember you posting that you liked your AI but probably wouldn't do another one. May I ask what you feel are the pros and cons of the round?
Thanks
I use Benchmark for light bullets, but a whole bunch of other powders will work.
RE15 for heavies, but about anything in the RE15/Varget/4895 burn rate should work.
Schitcan the H335, it's terribly temp sensitive stuff.
Straight 223s from here on for me. The 223 AI is fine, but it doesn't gain much over the parent cartridge, doesn't feed as well, and is generally a bunch of extra expense for not much gain.
I was hoping you would chime in ingwe, who better to give advice than the man the round is named after
.
Why do you not like H335 for the conventional bullets?
I seem to remember you posting that you liked your AI but probably wouldn't do another one. May I ask what you feel are the pros and cons of the round?
Thanks
Yeah. Here goes�
I like H335 in the hunting load because it gives me velocity from a Barnes that I can't get elsewhere. I do NOT use it in the varmint loads because Ive had pressure problems with it, every one of which was related to a round sitting for a couple minutes in a HOT barrel�like you encounter in the killing fields. Hunting rounds are shot one at a time, not by the score, so it has never been an issue in a cold barrel.
Were I to build another CF 22 it would probably be a .222Mag because brass and data are readily available ( relatively�) and ballistics are so close to the AI that I use 222mag data when working up a load. Otherwise it would be a .22-204 simply ( in both cases) for the lack of fire forming , and a tad more oomph out of the 22-204
FWIW I also wouldn't obsess over an 8 twist UNLESS you want to shoot heavies in it. As you see I like the mid-weight 22 bullets and a 1 in 12 handles them fine�no real need for an expensive barrel. However, if you feel you might like to have the option some time later down the road, virtually all bullets shoot well in the tight twist, so you can go from 40 to 75 grainers�
You also have a few factory .223 with 1 in 9s now�take your pick and have it punched out for an affordable AI.
Good info guys
I have owned a bunch of 223s through the years and have thought about punching one out to an AI ever since I heard steve timm singing their praises years ago.
Prairie Goat, I figure you are right about the practical gain not really being worth it but this has been an itch I have wanted to scratch for years and I'm going to give it a try.
I picked up an 8 twist pac nor screwed on to a 700 with dies and brass for a fair price so I'm going to give it a whirl.
Any data you guys can provide will be a big help.
I am thinking 50 and 55 NBT's and 55 hornady SP's for general use, 65 sierra gamekings for deer and 75 bergers and amaxs for longer range varmints and steel.
I read in one of Steve Timm's old posts that once fired brass doesn't fireform well to the AI chamber. Has this been anyone else's experience? I was hoping to use 1x fired lake city brass in my new rifle.
Thanks for the help
Nope. Not my experience at all. Every single AI round Ive formed was from 1X fired brass.
No problemo.
I've FFed a whole bunch of 223 AI brass from twice fired LC brass. I usually annealed after fireforming, which was the third firing on the brass. Has worked well for me.
The .223 case head is good for long brass life at 75,000 psi.
The .223 is SAAMI registered at 55,000 psi.
That is at least 36% safety margin that can be exploited with handloads.
Contrast that with the 6mmRem or 270Win with case heads good for 67,000 psi with long brass life. They are SAAMI registered at 65,000 psi with 3% safety margin.
What does it all mean?
The loads in a load book for 223 or 223AI are only suggestions for bolt action rifles. The AR15s with non adjustable gas systems may be tuned up for 55kpsi.
thanks fellows
I was starting to feel like I messed up with the AI if I couldn't use the small mountain of LC brass I have squirreled away
You should be fine.I even fire formed a bunch of nickel plated Federal brass from LE loads the feds used up. Hard as sin, but no problem!
My favorite load for my CZ is 28.0gr Benchmark under a 50gr VMax. This load gives me a consistent 3500fps, and good accuracy.
All my AI brass is fireformed once (at least) fired brass, nary an issue. I like to use Winchester Nickel for my hunting loads, just because its easier to find in the grass. I am seeing good life with them, with the occasional split neck after the fourth or fifth neck sizing.
Whatever you do, don't listen to ClarkM. He does a good job of trying to get people killed.
Don't know if it helps any, but I've fire formed steel cases.
Don't know if it helps any, but I've fire formed steel cases.
lol... I was wondering a while back about what would happen with steel cased stuff. A friend gave me some. I never shot it in an AI cause I knew I couldn't reuse the case....and I wasn't sure what might happen with a steel case forming...
My simple forming process has been to take a book max load for whatever bullet I'm forming with and load it up. Max load will form it sharp, light loads may not form as well. You could probably jam the lands and use a light load but a light kiss with a max load has been great for me.
If the guy running the lathe uses a standard go gauge to headspace an Ackley chamber, the case will stretch too much in fire forming and get frequent case separations just behind the shoulder. This problem is common as dirt.
I have tried ~~ 100 fixes and the best I have found is 10 gr of any pistol powder [that would be 5 gr for .223] covered with cream of wheat and fired without a bullet. The case is slathered with a film high pressure lubrication like moly grease. This forms half a shoulder and does not stretch the case too much behind the shoulder. That half shoulder can stand up to the push of the firing pin. That is unlike the base of the case neck cannot stand up to the sharp shoulder neck base and there will be a ring of plastic deformation. Ackley chambers should be headspaced so new brass crushes .004" [on bolt closing] at the base of the neck. The case then does not move forward on fire forming with the tighter headspace.
The half formed shoulder can be full power with bullets with full accuracy. There will then be a full shoulder for the 3rd firing.
There are other good fixes. A mandrel can open up the case neck that can then be partially full length resized so that there is .004" of crush on bolt closing. Or the barrel can be set back .004".
I
1) If the guy running the lathe uses a standard go gauge to headspace an Ackley chamber, the case will stretch too much in fire forming and get frequent case separations just behind the shoulder. This problem is common as dirt.
2) I have tried ~~ 100 fixes and the best I have found is 10 gr of any pistol powder [that would be 5 gr for .223] covered with cream of wheat and fired without a bullet.
3) The case is slathered with a film high pressure lubrication like moly grease. This forms half a shoulder and does not stretch the case too much behind the shoulder. That half shoulder can stand up to the push of the firing pin. That is unlike the base of the case neck cannot stand up to the sharp shoulder neck base and there will be a ring of plastic deformation.
4) Ackley chambers should be headspaced so new brass crushes .004" [on bolt closing] at the base of the neck. The case then does not move forward on fire forming with the tighter headspace.
5) The half formed shoulder can be full power with bullets with full accuracy. There will then be a full shoulder for the 3rd firing.
6) There are other good fixes. A mandrel can open up the case neck that can then be partially full length resized so that there is .004" of crush on bolt closing. Or the barrel can be set back .004".
You're making this into something it isn't. One beauty of these chamberings is that they're just stupid easy.......for most people.
1) You got this one right.
2) Unnecessary and a complete waste of time and whatever components you're using.
3) Stupid and completely unnecessary.
4) People love to parrot the .004" number........this is also "common as dirt." It would work "ok" if every case were exactly the same, but they're not. Try measuring brass. A new 223 case headpaces on the neck/shoulder junction in an AI case. It has to fit with crush. I pulled 20 unfired 223 cases, 2 different headstamps (Lapua gold box and IMI SS109) and measured them........... headspace varied by .007" between longest of one and shortest of the other. A chamber cut .004" short of some fixed gauge is wrong. My own 223AI chambers are cut with .015" crush. That's not too much and there's very little bolt pressure.
5) " Half formed shoulder?" "Full shoulder on the 3rd firing?" What??? You load 'em with bullets and shoot 'em. Perfect shoulder. That's all there is to it.
6) First, you better damn well set the barrel back.......that's how it should be done in the first place. Makes the rest of this nonsense.
1)I am ackman.
2)Barrel set back as the only solution.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
1)I am ackman.
2)Barrel set back as the only solution.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Do it however you like........think skinning cats with a spoon is the way to go, have at it.
75gr A-max in a formed case with H335 and a 450 CCI.
3000 fps in the dead of summer.
62 TSX in a formed case with H335 and a 450 CCI, 3284fps .
Might wanna try imr 8208 xbr with the 75's. it works for me. Meters very well and low temp sensitivity. A very knowledgable friend told me that alliant 2000 mr is great for 75's and 80 amax
everyone needs at least half a dozen rifles in this caliber, long barrel life, ungodly accuracy, quick to find an accuracy node with most powders.
H335, AA2230, Benchmark, H322, N133, N135 all are surpurb.
H335 and AA2230 will give you very long barrel life, and that is no schitt!
If you will have Greg Tannel(Gre-Tan Rifles) bush your firing pin, you will not believe the good stuff that follows!
everyone needs at least half a dozen rifles in this caliber, long barrel life, ungodly accuracy, quick to find an accuracy node with most powders.
H335, AA2230, Benchmark, H322, N133, N135 all are surpurb.
H335 and AA2230 will give you very long barrel life, and that is no schitt!
If you will have Greg Tannel(Gre-Tan Rifles) bush your firing pin, you will not believe the good stuff that follows!
While the .223 being SAAMI registered at 55 kpsi seems like overkill on safety margin to advanced handloaders, the .223 case head will fail before the primer will pierce even with factory firing pin fit.
You may be thinking of 6mmBR case heads, the the primer will pierce in a work up, while the case head remains solid.
Work up with 33 gr Vmax in 223 with Blue dot in Ruger #1
33 gr Vmax in 223 with Blue Dot in AR15
55 gr Vmax in 223 H335 in Ruger #1
unfired, extractor groove .329"
28 gr, extractor groove .329", 11% overload 69 kpsi Quickload
29 gr, extractor groove .329", 15% overload 80kpsi QL
30 gr, extractor groove .3295", 19% overload 92kpsi QL
31 gr, extractor groove .3320", 23% overload 106kpsi QL
As you can see the case head starts failing at 30 gr and the primer has not pierced with 31 gr.
The 6mmBR, OTOH, benefits greatly from Gre Tan bushing the firing pin.
6mmBR 65 gr Vmax 36 gr H335, primer will pierce, case head ok
6mmBR 75 gr Vmax 33.5 gr H335, primer will pierce, case head ok
I have had a lot of 223 primer blank from over size firing pin holes in 223's.
Your firing pin hole, vs your firing pin has to be extremely tight for the pictures above, and I do thank you for posting...learned a lot.
What brand of primers were those?
Old news and I've beat it up often.
.378" pin to bolt fit is usually horrid. This one worse than that. 50gr V-Max 223AI form loads,at 3150-ish fps...which is very obviously...very SOFT. Positive headspace via both the shoulder and a smooch.
The Cure.
Same lot of ammo,pre bushing.
Many would "think" high pressure,but these are underhand softballs.
Same lot,post bushing.
'Nother,for conversation.
Greg does all of mine and he touches upon it here. In fact,there should be another one freshly bushed,awaiting my arrival at the house.
Bye-Bye CratersHint.
Cool bolt, trick moves pay off. . .
Is it just 700's throwin' a hot dog down a hallway, or is slop endemic to others .378's as well?
The .223 case head is good for long brass life at 75,000 psi.
The .223 is SAAMI registered at 55,000 psi.
That is at least 36% safety margin that can be exploited with handloads.
Contrast that with the 6mmRem or 270Win with case heads good for 67,000 psi with long brass life. They are SAAMI registered at 65,000 psi with 3% safety margin.
What does it all mean?
The loads in a load book for 223 or 223AI are only suggestions for bolt action rifles. The AR15s with non adjustable gas systems may be tuned up for 55kpsi.
Is this iron clad truth?
25g 8208xbr, cci41, 75 amax. Shoots great at 3000fpos from my 21" pacnor 3groove 8 twist. Meters great and no temp sensitivity.
Bb
25g 8208xbr, cci41, 75 amax. Shoots great at 3000fpos from my 21" pacnor 3groove 8 twist. Meters great and no temp sensitivity.
Bb
Good article on primers.
CCI400 and others are too thin.
Changing primers fixed my problem. Of course I found my problem back when you couldn't find primers.
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
27.6 gr of Leverevolution under a 75 ELD in formed Rem cases with a 400 is skookum.
Rem 7.5 and cci 41 have harder cups and don't flow as much into loose firing pin holes. A cci 41 is basically a cci 450 with a harder cup rem 7.5s were made harder to deal with the flow of 17 rems. I run a lot of the cci 41s.
Bb
26.2 gr RL-15
CCI 400
LC Brass
75 gr Amax
Rem 7.5 and cci 41 have harder cups and don't flow as much into loose firing pin holes. A cci 41 is basically a cci 450 with a harder cup rem 7.5s were made harder to deal with the flow of 17 rems. I run a lot of the cci 41s.
Bb
I've got a bunch of 41's, and never thought of that. I will try them next time I load them up.
I will check my book tonight or at lunch. I'm using Big Game with 75 Gr. AMAX's and Lapua and Win brass. Seemed Quickload showed the highest velocity with the best efficiency, but it's been a few years ago that I worked it up.
Need to shoot some more 223 to fireform, because my son shoots them like they're 22LR's.
27.4 grs Big Game with 75 Amax at 2.48" COL. 2850 fps from 20" barrel.
Those fire form loads Steve?
Those fire form loads Steve?
You calling me a pussy? LOL. No. That's what we shoot in AI cases.
Maybe....
CCI 41, 25g 8208xbr, lapua case, 75 amax. 2.435" coal 3000 fps 21" 8 twist pacnor 3 groove. Sub 1/2 moa.
Bb
I think I need to get me some 8208xbr.
I think I need to get me some 8208xbr.
AR-Comp provides same speeds and better temp stability along with better consistency from lot to lot.
IMHO anyway.
CCI 400, 27.8 leverevolution, rem brass, 75 eld, 2.460" COAL, 22" mullerworks, 3015 fps.
I think I need to get me some 8208xbr.
AR-Comp provides same speeds and better temp stability along with better consistency from lot to lot.
IMHO anyway.
I've got a case of AR-Comp. It's perfect for the 6x45 as well.
I like AR comp ok but 8208xbr has metered better, almost meters like ball but it's a small extruded like h322 or benchmark. I used to use benchmark a lot more but have grown to like 8208 a bit better for 75s. I have good lot to lot and great temp stability.
Still love benchmark with 50 or 53g vmax's.
Bb
I like AR comp ok but 8208xbr has metered better, almost meters like ball but it's a small extruded like h322 or benchmark. I used to use benchmark a lot more but have grown to like 8208 a bit better for 75s. I have good lot to lot and great temp stability.
Still love benchmark with 50 or 53g vmax's.
Bb
I've read guys claiming 8208xbr and Benchmark is the same stuff.
Not the case?
I like AR comp ok but 8208xbr has metered better, almost meters like ball but it's a small extruded like h322 or benchmark. I used to use benchmark a lot more but have grown to like 8208 a bit better for 75s. I have good lot to lot and great temp stability.
Still love benchmark with 50 or 53g vmax's.
Bb
I've read guys claiming 8208xbr and Benchmark is the same stuff.
Not the case?
Nope. I use different charges of each for a 50 gr Blitzking in .223. Also, XBR8208 is some of the cleanest burning powder I've ever used in a rifle. Benchmark is dirtier.
CCI 41, 25g 8208xbr, lapua case, 75 amax. 2.435" coal 3000 fps 21" 8 twist pacnor 3 groove. Sub 1/2 moa.
Bb
Shot this load tonight, or close to it. Topped with a 77 Sierra Tipped Match King. 2848 average ES 32. Pac Nor 3 groove 8 Twist @ 21" Speer LEO cases
vetted via MagnetoSpeed
50g V max or other with 28.0g of H335, Rem 7 1/2 or cci br4 is awesome to say the least.
I wanted to update this thread with some data for 88's and a few 75 loads as a few have asked me about them recently. These are from a 21" Bartlein.
88 eld
Formed Rem case
CCI 400
25.3 gr Leverevolution
2,740 fps
Fire form load
88 eld
Rem case
CCI 400
24 gr Leverevolution
2,680 fps
Fire form load
75 eld
Lapua case
CCI 400
25.3 gr Leverevolution
2,900 fps
75 eld
Formed Rem case
****CCI 450****
26.5 AR comp
3,050 fps
75 eld
Formed Lapua case
CCI 400
27.6 gr Leverevolution
3,090 fps
Nice. That’s good stuff Hig. TY
Good stuff Hig, thanks
Your 75 data is about the same as mine,
I've been meaning to try the 88s in mine but it's a 1 in 8 so it may not work
It’s interesting that both FF to formed loads are 1.3 gr different.
27.5/Benchmark.....53 moly V max......Pac Nor 9 twist..Rem 7.5
It’s interesting that both FF to formed loads are 1.3 gr different.
Looks like 1.3 and 2.3 gr to me.
Thanks for posting your data!
I was one of the first to speak out against it.
My math skills may be abysmal, but the data I posted is good I promise.
Good to know. Just started load development on a new one I traded for. It shot the Fiocchi 50gr vmax factory stuff into abysmal 2” groups that’s always been accurate for me. Loading formed brass in the morning and heading back to the range.
Good to know. Just started load development on a new one I traded for. It shot the Fiocchi 50gr vmax factory stuff into abysmal 2” groups that’s always been accurate for me. Loading formed brass in the morning and heading back to the range.
Any luck?
Good to know. Just started load development on a new one I traded for. It shot the Fiocchi 50gr vmax factory stuff into abysmal 2” groups that’s always been accurate for me. Loading formed brass in the morning and heading back to the range.
Any luck?
Decided to get the flu instead. Hopefully shoot some reloads this weekend.
75g amax with 25g 8208xbr and a cci41 works great in my 3 groove pacnor 8 twist faux ti.
Bb
Good to know. Just started load development on a new one I traded for. It shot the Fiocchi 50gr vmax factory stuff into abysmal 2” groups that’s always been accurate for me. Loading formed brass in the morning and heading back to the range.
Any luck?
Decided to get the flu instead. Hopefully shoot some reloads this weekend.
I formed cases with 28 grains of tac and 40 grain NBTs. It shot those around 1"
That thing stacks 77 tmk in formed rem cases with 27.5 grains of lever. CCI 450s
What did you load up to try?
Good to know. Just started load development on a new one I traded for. It shot the Fiocchi 50gr vmax factory stuff into abysmal 2” groups that’s always been accurate for me. Loading formed brass in the morning and heading back to the range.
Any luck?
Decided to get the flu instead. Hopefully shoot some reloads this weekend.
I formed cases with 28 grains of tac and 40 grain NBTs. It shot those around 1"
That thing stacks 77 tmk in formed rem cases with 27.5 grains of lever. CCI 450s
What did you load up to try?
No lever, wound up with Varget. 24.8gr gave me .65 groups with the 77TMK and CCI 400’s. Need to pick up some lever.
25gr and a 62gr tsx gave me .75” groups.
Bright note, it was 20deg so didn’t have to wait long for the barrel to cool between groups!
That action is slick as glass, nicest newer 700 action I’ve owned. Switched out the trigger for a triggertech primary, Trijicon accupoint 3-9x, mil dot in DD’s.
Really liking it. You need to grab that Leupold with M1’s that I owe you.
I was one of the first to speak out against it.
It is a four letter word
Fireformed 100 pics of R-P brass over the last few weeks, working with other stuff and let the .223 AI get stuffed in the corner. Tried ‘15, Varget and Lever again with the 77gr TMK’s. Obviously not stepping on it yet with the 15 or Varget loads, but seeing acceptable accuracy with all 3, and at these charges , same POI within reason. Need to chrono these 3 to get a baseline of where I’m at and likely bump charges. With the Fiocchi brass I was getting pressure signs way early with lever, but no signs now.
Switched to Rem 7 1/2’s from CCI 400’s, and and 2 misfires out of 50 rds. Hard hit on the primer too.
What brand of dies are you gents using for the Ackley?
Hornady 68 gr hpbt, stumbled across this load a few years ago and stopped looking in my .233ai. I use Redding when I neck size only and Whidden dies when I full length.
Redding here. Settled on ‘15 with 77 TMK’s.
Been more consistent for me than Lever. Need to keep working up, I haven’t really pushed it too hard, pretty much SAAMI book max.
What brand of dies are you gents using for the Ackley?
Redding std neck die
Lee collet & seater & FL dies
I'm frugal
Benchmark & 53 gr V Max (or 8208)
Salvage target action....P-N full cylinder 28" 9 twist tube
Kills schiddt in the next county
Thanks for the feedback.
Just curious if the 223 Redding competition seater with its sliding bullet sleeve would also work on the Ackley?
40* shoulder may interfere
I thought the AI loading procedure was like this: Start at the standard cartridge max to fireform. After that, keep adding powder until primers start blowing. Then back off a tenth grain, or maybe two tenths, for a safety cushion.
I thought the AI loading procedure was like this: Start at the standard cartridge max to fireform. After that, keep adding powder until primers start blowing. Then back off a tenth grain, or maybe two tenths, for a safety cushion.
Hahaha! For many loaders this seems to be the technique! Then if the desired velocity is not yet reached, the second method is to switch to a faster burning powder in order to shove more of it into the case. Proceed once again until primers blow and back off a tenth or two.
I thought the AI loading procedure was like this: Start at the standard cartridge max to fireform. After that, keep adding powder until primers start blowing. Then back off a tenth grain, or maybe two tenths, for a safety cushion.
Hahaha! For many loaders this seems to be the technique! Then if the desired velocity is not yet reached, the second method is to switch to a faster burning powder in order to shove more of it into the case. Proceed once again until primers blow and back off a tenth or two.
My face aint real pretty but I’ve grown comfortable with it the way it is. Need faster I’ll step up to a bigger cartridge.
I don't shoot any schit rifles,so don't have to pull spark plugs on ammo. For me,the Improved chamberings don't get a pressure boost and are treated as SAAMI stuff,in that regard. Often the impetus for me to Improve,is to yield a true shoulder from which to afford finite headspace control. Other times,it's simply to maximize the capacity of a schit initial design(Hornet,22-250,300 H&H,375 H&H,etc). Hint.
The 223 AI is a rather nice case design,which in turn does rather nice things,so I've a goodly herd and it's my favorite chambering of All Time,due all that water under the bridge. Hint................