I've seen these type of questions asked before and the answer is often "either one".

Here is why I am asking:
- kicking off a custom build
- Historically, have seen Kreiger portrayed as the gold standard of cut rifled barrels.
- However, recently the precision crowd seems to have really switched from Kreiger to Bartlein.
- And I've heard that Bartlein was founded by a bunch of guys that used to be at Kreiger

Wondering if the answer is still "either one" or if something is changing?

And along with Mike Rock, all trained under Boots Obermyer, which is still making barrels..Lots of good ones out there.

My first Bart is being chambered right now, and I bet I like it.

No one is leaving Krieger for Bartlein.At least among the match shooters I know.You hear this from some individual shooters but Kriegers are still very much present on the line among the people I talk to about it (recently as this past week).Match shooters are a finicky, fickle and funny bunch.

One close pal and active match shooter says he has a Bartlein 6.5/284 that has been a headache. He will rebarrel to a Krieger....Another pal went from Krieger to a Hart.

Any barrel maker is capable of producing a lemon or maybe the smith screwed the pooch a bit (who knows?). But for we poor slob hunters anyone should be comfy with a Krieger or a Bartlein,either one and have been shooing Kriegers longer than I can remember. I doubt most hunters will/can tell the difference.

I'd worry more about who is putting the rifle together than any difference between these two tubes. Me, I just bought another Krieger. I need a 7mm 9 twist #2 Krieger for backup. Next!

True, the plumber is very important. You never know with all the variables. I've got two .243's plumbed by the same guy,at the same time, same reamer..one with a lilja, the other a krieger..the Lilja stole the show initially,however after 500 rounds the Krieger is whooping on the lilja..Thats actually been a common theme for me in the cut vs. button scenario, which makes me lean to the cut side.

Bartlein was used by 30 out of 50 of the top shooters in the Precision Rifle Series. These are the major leagues of sniper-style competitions, with targets typically in the 300-1000 yard range.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/11/18/rifle-barrels-what-the-pros-use/

Tucson's most noteworthy gunsmiths Dave Miller Co and P.O. Holehan only use Kreiger.

I recently chambered a 5R Bartlein in 6 BR. Looking at the new rifling with a borescope was darn near impossible. There was only a hint of a shadow representing the land/groove junction.

I can't imagine either brand of barrel would be a poor choice.

Either will be good. Yes, Frank Green and Tracy Bartlein came from Kreiger.

the gunsmith im using to have a rifle built at the moment uses only bartlein and kreiger barrels. they pick the contour, cal and twist and then order from whoever has the blank in stock. I think either way a good choice. my barrel will be a bartlein

I think doing a smallish contour blank in stainless befuddles both of them.

Bartlein will do a slightly smaller contour than Krieger. I have a #2 bartlein 6.5mm & a #2B 7mm (same as everybody else's #3). Krieger started that stupid no skinny stainless policy & several other makers followed them.

The Bartleins I have inspected looked as good as the Kriegers. Both look better than Brux. GD

I lean toward selecting the smith I want to use and going with his barrel suggestion. His rear end is on the line as much if not more than the barrel maker.

IMO.

DF

Wondering about choosing a Kreiger or Bartlein because of what the precision shooters are doing is like a 20 handicap golfer choosing a set of clubs because that is what the Pros are using at the moment.

You're gonna always have some of that, which isn't all bad.

I have Kreiger, Brux, Hart, PacNor, Broughton and Shilen tubes. For hunting guns, probably not enough difference to worry about.

My latest build, a 26 Nos on a 7RM 700 BDL, the smith was able to get Shilen Match tubes very quickly, so that's the way my pard and I went. Both are half MOA hunting guns, so what's not to like. And, we had them back from the smith, in their stocks, scopes mounted, ready to shoot in just a few weeks, not months or even a year, like some.

DF

Yep. For a hunting rifle I'd phone around and see which good barrel maker had the twist/contour I want in stock, or soonest to be in stock.

Agreed me too.

Crow Hunter, Those will be very short barrels after chambered-22"

I will likely never have a Krieger unless it's CM because Bartlein, Rock, Lilja, Pac Nor, Hart, Shilen, Brux, Obermeyer, and others I can't think of now will make a stainless barrel in a hunting weight contour. That doesn't mean Krieger doesn't make a good barrel though, just not what I normally want.

If I ever desire a target barrel I would be happy to use a Krieger.

Of the list above I have had a Brux, two Rocks (before Rock left, don't know if that makes a difference), and two Bartleins. From a pure accuracy standpoint the "heavier" barrels, heaviest being a 6 BR in a Brux #3, second heaviest a 30-06 in a Bartlein #3, shot best. The difference hunting is imperceptible.

If I had to purchase a barrel and had a timetable I would find what I wanted from Lilja's in stock barrels. They will also turn down an in stock barrel to a smaller contour for a fee.

The last time I ordered a barrel it was a Bartlein, in CM. It will be blued. It will shoot well enough to hunt.

Wondering if Bartlein will a 2b that will finish @ 24"

Mullerworks is the same story. And my Muller shoots wonderfully.

My Krieger will out shoot my Bartlien 50% of the time.

Go to their website. The blank is 24" and you need to tale about an inch of off each end before chambering.

Go to their website. The blank is 24" and you need to take about an inch of off each end before chambering.

Isnt Muller running the show at Rock Creek these days as well as turning out his own barrels?

I could be wrong but I think the chart might be the max they will finish at?? I have a 7MM "2B" at the smith now and I'm pretty sure the blank was 27". It will be finished at 22.5" with a 3/4" shank, not sure I could get that out of a 24" blank.

No.....

The 7mm #2B blank I bought from Southern Precision Rifles (bugholes.com) and came as a 27" blank, I had it finished at 24" on my 7mm rem mag with a 1.25" shank length. The 6.5mm I ordered straight from Bartlein and specified it as finishing at 22" for my 6.5x47L with a 1" shank length. I can't remember the unfinished length, but I wanted it as a blank where the gunsmith would only need to lop 1" off the end before crowning. I've found that you can get the bore off center sometimes if you have to cut 3-4" off a barrel to get the finished length you want.

I believe the length bartlein shows on the website is what it'll finish at, not the blank length.

I would think a gunsmith should be able to get a 26" barrel or close to it out of a 27" blank if he uses the full length of the shank. The only end that has to be cut off is the muzzle to remove the last 1" so the lapping "bell" can be cut off. The chamber itself takes care of that on the breech end and the barrel length is measured from the bolt face.

In any case it's not really an issue for me since I don't do longer than 24" barrels on hunting rifles. I've got some heavy barreled rifles with longer than 24" barrels, but anything I'm going to carry hunting gets a lighter contour and shorter barrel.

Correct.....the bottom of the page says:

All barrels come with 1" extra overall length for cutting and crowning.

And THIS is why my 243 and 7STW will be sporting Krieger's on the very next two builds!

Most of the top finishers are actually using Bartlein. But it's because most of them are using GAP rifles and GAP uses Bartlein. But Krieger is still well represented.

I'll see if I can find the link.

Read slower......

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/11/18/rifle-barrels-what-the-pros-use/

My next four builds/re-barrels are coming with Bartlein barrels.

krieger isn't as popular for all the tactical type builds out there. barlein seems to be alot more popular for tactical rifles. I dunno why they just are.

Called today and Bartlein confirmed the 2b would finish @ 24" the sky really isn't falling...........

I just ordered a #3 Bartlein today. Planning to finish it at 24". Doesn't the smith have to lob some off of chamber end to get desired shank length? Anyone know what the muzzle diameter will be on this @ 24". Says is .650 @26".

I did, can't go wrong with either, so I just ordered 2 Krieger's because I can get them faster than a Bartlein at the time I ordered.......

Your 'smith will have to cut a bit off the shank end. I think about an inch on a #3, assuming you desire an inch of shank.

If you kept the full shank a 24 inch finish would be 0.670. I made this mistake (of keeping the full shank) once. Cutting an inch or so off the shank end would mean something in the middle, but I don't know the exact measurement.

Is an inch of shank in front of the lug about standard in a mid weight rifle?

There are stocking dealers of Bartlein. I bought one today that will ship tomorrow.

For the most part a 1" shank is a good choice for a mid weight!

A #3 Bartlein is .670 @ 26", but with a 1" shank you will be .690 finished!

With that contour I wouldn't be hesitant to have a 3/4 inch shank, or even 1/2 inch.

Gunsmith recommended 3/4" shank.

I waited awhile for my Bartlein barrel last year, if that is an issue for you. About five months, IIRC.

It's great, though.

Edited to add: That's three times my autocorrect changed Bartlett to Bartlett. Oh, crap!

I have a Rem mountain rifle contour barrel and a 30 caliber in #1 contour both in stainless, both from Krieger.

I suspect they're in the 410 grade of stainless that Krieger used to use some. They'd make a skinny barrel with that steel but they quit doing that about 8-9 years ago. They use 416 steel now and won't make a skinny barrel in it because they claim it gets weak in cold weather. Many other barrel makers along with the factories use the same steel and produce skinny barrels, none of them are blowing up in cold weather so it's pretty obvious it's a solution in search of a problem. They've preached it so long though I think they feel like they can't back down from it now. Unfortunately Bartlein and Brux go along with that thinking so it makes it hard to get a good cut rifled barrel in stainless in a lightweight contour. Rock is pretty much the only choice for a cut rifled light contour, they're plenty good but hard to come by.

Crow Hunter, there were thin SS barrels that blew up in cold weather is why Krieger started not making them. The problem was sulphur content being incorrect in the material. If the sulphur content is correct there is no problem. At least that is my recollection of the chain of events.

Both of mine are 416. I talked John into when I told him that I live and hunt in Arizona and the barrels would never see real cold weather.

I have a #1 contour stainless Douglas. In this day and age you would think that it would not be released if was a concern. Would a cut barrel have different issues than a button in cold weather?

Just a blog of a limited amount of precision shooters.

That's good to know. I live in Mississippi and head to the house when it gets below 30 degrees for the most part. Being told that I had to buy a sewer pipe barrel if I wanted stainless steel because of some theoretical weakness at -50 always ticked me off. I'm not going to put a chrome moly custom barrel on a rifle, chrome moly rusts while you're looking at it in the deep south with our high humidity. I guess I want my cake and eat it too, I just want a man-portable stainless rifle, I don't want to have to tote a sendero contour just to get stainless steel.

I might feel differently if I though there was any validity to the reasoning, but plenty of other makers have made skinny stainless barrels for too many years without them exploding for me to buy the reasoning. No one is more lawsuit adverse than gun manufacturers and Remington will sell you a M7 in stainless with a barrel like a stick of uncooked spaghetti. That tells me right there that there's nothing to it. Pac-Nor, Hart, Douglas, Shaw, Shilen, Rock, etc. will all make skinny 416 stainless tubes. There are several good ones in there but recently my preference has been running to cut barrels and the only one in there is Rock. Rock's are great but have been pretty much unobtainable for the last few years, hopefully that's changing with the new owners.



I think those were factory Sako barrels if I remember correctly. I seem to remember some of them splitting at low temps but it was traced to bad steel as you said. I think the consensus among most manufacturers is that 416 does weaken a bit more than chrome moly at low temperatures but it's not nearly enough to be concerned with.

Crow Hunter,
If you are in North MS. I would not shoot any of your stainless barrels tonight. Record cold would clearly equal blown up barrel 😄

I'm holding true to my promise not to leave the house when it's below 30 degrees. I'm laid up in front of the fire and after that going to curl up under the electric blanket.

Danny Pederson will make you a skinny stainless barrel if you want it. Any twist and pretty much any contour.

Classic Barrel

I agree with DF.
I have Krieger, Hart, Pac Nor, Shilen, Lilja, Parker Hale, Lothar Walther, Benchmark..

I have been able to get Shilen Select match at a good price with the right taper, twist, rifling, and caliber... but delivery is ~~6 months long.

Shilen stainless "match" is not as good thier "select match", but Brownells stocks them at a good price. I can see the difference in the bore polish. I cannot see the difference on the target with a hunting rifle, nor can I see the difference on the deer.

Last week I was at the range and this old guy shows up that shoots a benchrest rifle. He was pontificating to another shooter about how Bertline Barrels (his pronunciation) are just kicking butt in all the matches. He said he swapped his Kreiger for a Bertline and it shoots groups almost too small to measure. Then he said Kreiger is junk, Hart isn't worth a (reference to fecal matter), and Shilen is garbage. Made me feel really bad, because I have a new Kreiger leaning against my gun room wall waiting to be installed as soon as my turn comes up with the smith. Not only that, I have a Brux on order that should arrive some time this year. Worse still, I have varmint rifles with Pac-Nor, Shilen, Schneider, Hart, Brux, and even lowly Criterion barrels. Heck, I even have some with their factory barrel. Now I gotta order a Bertline to keep up. I find a place online with a suitable Bertline in stock, but finally come to my senses and pass. Opinions are great, but in practice the varmints don't care much what barrel the bullet that atomized their anatomy came from, and neither do I. Sometimes we go off the deep end, I pledge to never look at that list of which barrels are winning little plaques because all I want is to see an expanding shock wave emanating from formerly furry little bucktoothed critters. So far that requirement has been met by all those manufacturers, so I'll just relax and have fun again.

Clarkm,
What is the basis for this?

Shilen stainless "match" is not as good thier "select match", but Brownells stocks them at a good price. I can see the difference in the bore polish. I cannot see the difference on the target with a hunting rifle, nor can I see the difference on the deer

Actually the only difference is the match barrels can vary in bore size from end to end .0002 and the select match varies from .0001 or less. No other difference. They come from the same lot of steel, machined together, lapped together, and then air gauged. That is when they are segregated.

That's good to know. I thought the difference was lapping or the amount of lapping that the Select Match got over the Match grade.

Butch,
You are closer to Shilen than I am, but I have a dozen Shilen barrels and the select match are like a mirror inside. I can see the difference.

Clarkm,
I have been associated with Shilen since 1990. When I was in the barrel business I sold 1000-1500 Shilen barrels a year. Yes, I have been acquainted with them for several years. Actually a true mirror finish is not good. A polished barrel has a tendency to foul more. A 240 grit works best for lapping.

Robert Gradous told me he ain't NEVER seen a Shilen that wouldn't shoot......had me thinking about that for my 7STW and 243 build, but I went on ahead and bought the Krieger's!

I use Bartlein, Kreiger, and 1 Rock barrel along with my Shilen in my competition rifles. I honestly can't tell any difference in the way most of the brands shoot in my hunting rifles. I just received a Douglas as they would make a lighter barrel that would be the length that I wanted in my lightweight 280AI build. They do not lap their barrels.
For a hunting rifle I use either a Shilen CM or their regular match grade SS barrels.

I've only owned one Krieger, but it was a shooter! I'm probably going to go with another Krieger on my next build. Their new website makes ordering a new barrel almost too easy.

My last few rifles have been 5r cut barrels. I'm over that fad. I'm back to lilja and pac nor 3 grooves. they shoot just as good and are easier to clean IMHO.

As either or both,Kreiger-Bartlein, say,"We make 5R barrels because out customers ask for them. We can't see that they are any better". Similar to Shilens 4 groove ratchet barrels. I think that when you get a good barrel, you just get a good barrel.

THIS

Kreiger, Brux, Hart, Lilja & Shilen.

"For hunting guns, probably not enough difference to worry about."

All of my custom barrels are consistent 1/4 MOA.

Damn...

I hear about a lot of "half inch" rifles at the range, but I don't see too many. The last time I saw a rifle that would shoot five, five shot groups averaging 1/4 MOA was when a BR shooter I knew showed up with a 6PPC competition rifle.

Actually the PPC would do better, but you get the drift.

I'll say DAMN! I've shot BR for about 30years and I have never seen a 1/4 moa hunting rifle. Heard of a few, but something happened when it was time to show it. Maybe a very occasional 3 shot 1/4", but not what I would call a 1/4" rifle. I've shot a .092 5 shot group in BR, but it sure ain't a .100 rifle.

I wonder how many local BR matches A guy could be in the top 10 with a .250 Agg?

Most of them.

Ok, I reckon they're not 1/4 MOA by BR standards. That's a much different grading curve. I work with the loads until they remain consistently under 1/2". I don't shoot .250 every range trip. But, the guns are capable when I am.

I don't see how you could hold a hunting rifle to a BR standard. A .250 - .500 is not hard to maintain with good equipment. I do not want to misrepresent.

To be explicit: A hunting rifle, and five, five shot groups, with an average under 1/2 MOA?

Oh no. Haven't done that. If that's the true formula for a confirmed aggregate, I am deficient. I never shoot more than three shot groups. So, I guess I don't measure up to the true 1/4 MOA standard.

Didn't realize there was a standard for group measurement claims beside a dial caliper.

Then they are not consistent 1/4MOA

How do you know when you loaded a bad round or if it was you?

When you say "a half inch rifle" you have to measure that against some standard of consistency. All of my hunting rifles have at one time or another posted a half inch, three shot group at 100 yards. But when I say half inch rifles regarding my collection then I'm talking about my heavy 223 and 308's.

Re: bbls, both top notch.

Both will shoot far better if smithed well, than most can hold

I am glad that this has become a discussion. I just saw a gun company that guarantees 1/3 MOA with premium factory ammo. Whatever.....

Agreed. I will proof test my loads using the new formula.

Do they specify their test criterion?

It was 3/8 MOA not 1/3. Am sure saw "match grade factory" ammo specified but did not see it when looked back at the site. This is on some GAP rifles. Does not guarantee that they will average this. That is the kicker.....

My shpeal about why I get so few groups under 1/2"

If we plug in the average wind speed for the USA, 7.4 mph, with the average long range competition rifle, a 308 with 155 palma bullet at 2900 fps, we get some errors:

50 yards = 0.35 moa = 0.175" -> you can hit a fly
100 yards =0.72 moa =0.72" -> you can hit a mouse
200 yards =1.42 moa =2.8" -> you can hit a bunny rabbit
400 yards =3.01 moa =12" -> you can hit a deer
800 yards =7.22 moa =58" -> you can hit a car
1600 yards =18.77 moa =300" -> you can hit a bus

And if anyone knows a way of predicting when the wind at the Issaquah range when it opens at noon, 1/2 hour from my house in WA, has less than 7.6 mph gusty wind, I would like to know.

What I do do, is stay in Eastern MT for a month before hunting, and target practice at 500 yards at sun up on those days when the flag is hanging straight down. When the wind is 15 mph, I don't hunt.

Chose the one you can get quickest.

Can't go wrong with either.

There was a guy here that used to say that all his McWhorter custom rifles averaged 1/4 MOA. I don't doubt that McWhorter rifles are very accurate, but a hunting weight rifle that averages 1/4 MOA is a lofty claim to be sure. I had a 6mm Remington 40X with a 2 ounce trigger that shot tons of 1/4 inch 5 shot groups with several different bullets, but to say it would always shoot groups that small would be BS. Took me awhile to get used to that 2 oz trigger.

If I was answering I'd say not every shot I make is perfect and you dang sure know it when its not in any position, especially sandbagged.

Then there is mirage to deal with.

The gun COULD be .25 moa, but the conditions or shooter not allow it to be shot to that level all the time.

Me, I'd take either barrel any time and I'd add Rock into that bunch quickly as I would Obermeyer.

Lets not forget Broughton barrels either. A while back BobinNH and I were spit balling back and forth about Cut vs Button regarding accuracy, and I went to the 1000 yard BR Club site in PA to look at the winners list of equipment used and it was a toss up between Broughton, Bartlein and Krieger. I've always maintained that if one method was clearly better than the other, everyone would be using them. As far as topics here being beat to death, it would have to be than one, pick one rifle and my all time favorite, push feed vs. CRF. Of course any thread involving the 270 gets honorable mention as well.

.22 cal centerfire for deer posts seem to a recent favorite campfire subject and gets folks all upset.

22 centerfire?
If mule bucks average 205 pounds and bull elk average 700 pounds, then the average cartridge for bull elk, the 30-06 should be 3.4 x bigger than the average mule buck cartridge.

That would be a 180 gr 2700 fps bullet for bull elk
That would be a 53 gr 2700 fps bullet for mule bucks.

So the 223 would be overpowered..... er do we justify whatever rifle we can carry that weights 10 pounds?

That's it. What ever we do, we justify.

See.... 😀

All of my big game rifles are consistently sub-1/4 MOA for 1-shot groups.

What do you think shooting 5 shot groups does to the average vs. a three shot group? So you are never going to shrink the group after three shots. How much do you worsen it on average with 5? It pains me to upset a three shot cloverleaf with 2 more shots. Inevitably it turns it into a sub-par group.

That's because three shots aren't enough to show how widely shots will spread from a rifle, even with its most accurate load. In fact five aren't either, but they're a much better predictor than three. Even super-accurate benchrest rifles will shoot larger 5-shot groups than 3-shot groups.

Generally, 5-shot groups will average about 1-1/2 times as large as 3-shot groups.

Also gives you 2 more chances to pull one and blow up your nice group. I had a single, not very ragged, hole going one time with a .22 and shot 5 made it a half inch group at 50y.

Consider that GAP builds a lot of the precision rifles used in competition and GAP uses Bartlien. That may explain the numbers.

AZ are these the guys RinB is referring to, who shoot a lot of GAP rifles? GAP uses Bartlein.Like RinB said that might be why those numbers are tilted the way they are?

I used to order my Kreigers through my gunsmith as part of his batch orders....says he doesn't do it anymore. It takes him up to a year to get a batch because bigger outfits like Bruno's and others get the big orders.

Point is someone is buying and shooting lots of Kreigers

The Bartlien must shoot better the other 50%

Looks to me they are the same/same, might be new math.

But what does it prove? That we could shoot a really small target five times in a row if our lives depended on it?

We could go from 3 to 5 to 10 to 25 to 50................

Give me a rifle that will shoot the first shot where I aim, rain or shine and have the other two land somewhere inside 1.5" from the first and I'm happy. I have a Kreiger barrel that will shoot partitions, TSX's, LRX's, Accubonds...... all consistently under an inch (3 shots), all to the same point of aim, all at least to 400 yds, cold or hot. But I have people that tell me that their hunting rifles are more accurate. Big deal.

We use multiple shots because we all recognize that a single shot is not a valid predictor of where the next shot is going to go. If that were not the case, when zeroing our rifles, we would all be happy with putting one shot in the POA and calling it good (admittedly there are some folks that actually do this…) Most folks in the three-shot camp use said number because, "you'll never get more than three shots at a deer anyway" or maybe because "after three the barrel heats up and it starts walking." These folks are missing the point and if they would investigate a little farther, would see that clearly. What most folks attribute to the barrel getting hot, etc, isn't...

The idea with shooting more than one shot at a target is to have a high level of confidence in where your next bullet is going to go. Three shots will not tell you this. If anyone doubts that, I challenge them to do this: shoot a three shot group, let the barrel cool completely (mainly because it will make them feel better) and then shoot another three shot group at the same exact POA. What you will find is that the six shots resulting from the two three-shot groups will be considerably larger than the original three shots. If you really want to have a better idea of what's going on, then shoot yet another group of three at the same POA. You could continue to stack groups but, the more shots you put into the group, the less difference you will see. For me, ten shots total gives me a high level of confidence of what the rifle will really do. I'm not a statistician, but someone like Mathman or Denton could explain standard distribution, a bell curve, the tails of the curve and why, as you put more shots into your group that it eventually appears to quit growing.

In the process of doing this, you will discover that the "flier" that spoiled your three shot group isn't a flier at all, but rather just a glimpse of how accurate (or inaccurate) that particular rifle/load combo really is.

The one real problem with this process is that it really destroys a bunch of the "half inch all day long" rigs you read so much about on the internet. There were actually a couple of folks that weren't afraid to try this and posted their results on CTSmith's thread about his Kimber Montana. You have to read through the whole thread to pick it out, but it's worth doing:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9340317/1

I think it was Mule Deer that posted once that if you have a hunting weight rig that will keep ten in one MOA you really have something special. That has been my observation as well.

John

Why??

This thread/topic is useless.....could you pick between a Ferrari or a Lamborghini??

The barrel chambering/installation is more critical than barrel brand!!!

I'm not disagreeing with this or with what John wrote. But I will take this ten shot group thing further. I contend that a 10 shot group shot one at a time over ten different days is a better indicator of a rifles capability in the field.

I became aware of Bart Bobbitt in May 1997 when Krieger paid for an ad in Precision Shooting Magazine showing a target where Bart shot a 3.325" 20 shot group at 800 yards with a 308.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#%21topic/rec.guns/iL7zv-cktJc

Bart has been trying to convince me for 18 years that I need more than 3 or 5 shots in a group.

I came up with my own list of things from the gun culture folklore that really affect accuracy and things that do not.

Then ~8 years ago I designed an amplifier that was mass produced. I got data on the gain distribution of the amplifiers in production. My calculation on worst worst case with ~ 50 variables would be a wide range of possible gain. But the amplifier data formed a narrow Gaussian distribution centered on the nominal. Why did things turn out so good? It seems errors were cancelling errors most of the time.

I was forced to go back to Bart's model. With my 1/2" 5 shot groups on the varmint rifles I built and my 1" 3 shot groups on the big game rifles I built, I could not see the effect of those accuracy rituals that did not make my list.

I now believe that if I shot two different million shot groups, I could finally see the effect of deburring flash holes.

What does it all mean?
It takes more shots in a group to resolve small changes in accuracy.

As long as your adept at allowing for the changing conditions from one day to the next, I think that method will be as good an indicator as any.

John