I am writing this and posting this on a few forums.

I have left HD Rifles completely.

Basically the new owners are not paying payroll and I am forced to leave because I cannot survive.

There are other reasons as well such as the person they have in the office, Audie.
I will not continue to be blamed for his shortcomings and lying to everyone as well as lying to the management about many things period.

Clay is staying on to try to get everyone�s guns done. I have taught him well and he knows he can call me any time for advice and help, as he is my friend. I no longer own any part of HDR and am in no way shape or form a part of it.

Audie will cease to be at HDR after I leave as well. That decision has been made by the management and HDR will be much better off for it. As he has certainly lied his arse off to you all and to me and Clay, as well as the Managment

Lord knows we (Clay and I) have tried to make a go of it, but for me, it didn�t work.
I apologize to all affected by the mess created by myself and other at HDR. I hope the new management can pull her out, but they can have it as they will not even pay employees.

It saddens me deeply to have to write this but I must.

You all will not be seeing me any more on the forums, but I know I won�t be missed any ways LOL.

Take care

Jeff Hicks

Jeff,

Sorry you has a bad run at it. Although I'm not entirely sure you need to leave the internet forums ... or maybe you do ... what the hell do I know.

On the brightside, I bet you're happy to be leaving Del Rio <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by model70man

I know California could sure use you! But this state would probably be the hardest place to get a business started. But there is definitly a need here.

Phil

I'm incredulous... while I wish the man all the best I wouldn't send him a rusty crowbar no matter where he lived...

Dude, I feel for ya but, Its kind of like saying that you only took your hand off the wheel for a moment to pick up your cigarette lighter you dropped on the floor board. I know you didn't plan on that sudden stop, but hey, schit happens. How in the hell did new management come in if you were doing the job? Why in the hell would someone take over a failing concern, unless they could see room for improvement. I know you have apoligized, but stop whining, we all live and die by our own hands. Steve out.

Now that your gone, is Finch still going to get his rifle back????? This whole thing is like an episode out of "Days of Our Lives"!!!!! I have never seen such a drama!!!

All right Brad, I will see your incredulous and raise you to out- [bleep]-rageous. I couldn't resist. Steve

Alright, alright. One more. "Celt has left the building." Steve <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What kind of crap is that anyway, the man thinks he can just wash his hands of the whole thing and walk away?
If he owned any part of the business when the rifle went in he is responsible for it. He claims the rifle still exists. OK damnit go in that shop, kick ass until they give it up and send it back to the man.
I smell bullschit and I'm a long way from Texas

"I smell bullschit and I'm a long way from Texas."

I smell it to and I live in Washington.

Jeff Hicks, so what about Flinches rifle?

I not only see lies from your company but I see theft as well.

You may run but you can't hide.


From HD rifles own words.....

"About HD Rifles
HD Rifles
P.O.B. 420397
Del Rio, TX 78842
hdrifles@bizstx.rr.com

All work receives the undivided attention of the (co-owner), Jeff "Celt" Hicks who has over 16 years experience as a gunsmith. There are never outside vendors involved in any operation - ALL work is in the HD Rifles workshop"

I just read a thread over at Snipers hide. Celt put up the same message. Me thinks he stuck it to a few more people than we are aware of. It is worth the read. Steve

Elvis has left the building....Taking everyone's money with him....

What a class act.....not...

Celt.....what is your take on Flinch's rifle now.....

Thanks for the heads up. Seems Celt/Jeff Hicks ripped off more than a few people...

A thread definitely worth reading, especially if HD Rifles has your money and/or components.

I'd also recommend that anyone left in the lurch by HD get ahold of a good attorney and start legal action to recover their property ASAP. The ship is going down and the rats are leaving. Once they all go overboard I'm afraid everybody is going to be permanently left holding the sack.

Given the amount of money involved, I'd say these shenanigans would qualify for Felony consideration in most states...not to menton mail fraud and anything the BATF can come up with.

Good Luck to Those that are caught up with these Scoundrels.

HBB

Guys Im probably violating the terms of agreement for the forums here, some may construe the words Ive spoken as badmouthing Jeff Hicks. I know quite a few of the members here from the old Shooters.com site, guys like Allen in AK, Dube, I think Pumpgun posts here, as I still talk to him on another chat when possible.

As GOD as my witness, everything Ive spoken on www.snipershide.com is the absolute and unabridged truth, I have people that can corroborate every word. Jeff Hicks has violated and degraded the good will of every member of the shooting community with what he has done, and the people deserve to know about it.

I will go so far as to say that the folks who are left in the rubble that Jeff has created will do everything to make right by any member that has a dog in this fight.

Ive already been banned from www.snipersparadise.com for telling the truth about Jeff's lying and stealing from customers, hopefully the members here wont mistake this as rantings but someone who truly wants to shed light on crime's someone else committed against members of our small community.

Take care,

Bruce

Another gunsmith crashs,JBelk,the one who gave up building rifles to build houses in California,and now Celt.

Charlie,look after yourself

This rates entirely off the pathological scale!

Huntr

I think that was Ricks..

STARmedic/Bruce

Thanks for the heads up and we hope you'll throw a log in the fire here.

Just got off the phone with Flinch.....And am gonna have a no BS answer for him on the where, how, when and why of his rifle by tomorrow evening.

Bruce

Bruce where you located? In-laws are in Del Rio and we visit now and then. Maybe next time we're in town a cup of coffee and doughnut may be in order.

This is gonna get good. You da' man Bruce!

Just figured out who you are.Welcome to the Campfire and let us know the final outcome of Flinch's rifle or parts of a rifle...

Happy Birthday Huntr

Im the largest Irish guy in Brackettville, well known by everyone in the town due to my occupation. A cup of joe would be perfect would love to sit down with anyone from this board and shoot the breeze. My girlfriend works and is from Del Rio and her family all lives out that way, apart from her mom who lives in Katy. In the next few months I may be goin to school in College Station to finish up my current career path.

Take care and God Bless..

Bruce

Jeez, not another Aggie. You seem like a smart guy, one would think you could get into a better school. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, welcome to the campfire.

Bruce
You get Flinch's parts back and I will make a personal donation to your textbook fund!
art

If the stock or metalwork needs a refinish, I'll happily oblige. Polane T and Cerakote - my dime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

Jeff,

[bleep] dude,you were greeted with open arms,on numerous levels. There was a time,when you were received largely as "Family",on this and other Boards.

Whatcha have done,is a sickening slap to the face of everyone,who has ever granted you a glimmer of credence. I suppose it is just testimony,that you saw fit to remove all doubts,in that you've retained nary a whit of selfrespect or accountability.

I feel like an azzhole,for going to bat for you,on multiple occassion. For those that I quietly asked for discretions,I apologize profusely and pronounce my own stuptitude,in light of your circumstances. I was under false illusion,that there was intent to satisfy and I hope I didn't cost anyone loot.

Dude,you're a piece of [bleep] and a KING sized portion to boot............................

I'll toss $100,even though Flinch is an azzhole...............(grin)

I now feel REAL lucky my situation turned out smelling like roses, but then again, I wasn't exactly the nice guy that Flinchy is.

Dude,I'm glad I didn't hang your satisfactions.

You WAS right,I was WRONG.

My apologies,even though you fared well.......................

Further,ala the 'Hide:




"To the Snipers Hide Community,

Celt (AKA Jeff Hicks) is the biggest liar and thief I have ever had the misfortune to meet. The reason Jeff didn't get paid was he didn't do any work! Since Dan, Mary and I have tried to turn HD around, we have invested another 150,000 dollars and spent a tremendous amount of time (free to HD) as well as completing 60% of the backorders. Most of these guns were completed by Clay and Alex while Jeff got paid for them.

Furthermore, my wife Mary went though the old financial records and she discovered Jeff�s fraudulent activities. We are having these turned over to the Country attorney for pursuit of criminal charges.

Since we have become involved with Jeff Hicks, we discovered that he hid old bills, lied to customers, and stole corporate funds. Additionally, various customer-furnished and/or inventory parts have mysteriously disappeared.

Mary and I have communicated directly with various customers in attempting to resolve old issues only to find out the extent of Jeff Hicks� lies and how he took money from people long before we ever became involved. The problems with HD were going on long before we ever entered the picture. It was Jeff Hicks who mislead the customers and took monies without any intention of completing their work. He told people that their guns were done and got them to send money (which he spent) and the parts were never even ordered much less completed!

The SH community knows, particularly those customers who were deceived and/or ignored, that the source of the problem was Jeff Hicks. I challenge Jeff to sue me if this is incorrect. He is simply a liar, thief and possibly more. I will not address other issues regarding his character that have come to light but I assure the members of the SH community that I am not worrying about being sued for slander by Mr. Hicks.

As far as Bruce�s statements on the Hide, I know that he is correct and support what he has said. While I didn't know everything that he revealed (since he had left before I came into this unfortunate situation), I understand him to be a man who is honest to a fault and I am sorry he has been caught up in this whole thing too.

As to my earlier defense of Audie, I stand corrected! And he will no longer be communicating lies, misrepresentations, etc. to any of you because his services have been terminated, wholly and completely, as of today. (I think this is the only honest statement Mr. Hicks has made on the Hide insofar as I am aware.)

The only thing that has happened since the new owners have come on is that suppliers were finally getting paid and guns were going out (albeit at significant personal cost)! I realize that I am angry at this point in time; however, I stand by what I have said, and these statements have not been made lightly. To those of you with whom Mary and I have had personal contact during my short tenure at HDR, I trust that you feel we have treated you with respect, honesty and fairness. We were unaware of the seriousness of HD�s problems, and have endeavored only to try to ameliorate them to the best of our abilities as we became aware of them.

I realize it is not much consolation to those of you who believe you have received the short end of the stick with HDR, but please bear in mind that we are in the same sad boat as you, only worse, since we have invested a tremendous amount of personal funds, while receiving not one red cent. We were totally unaware of the situation when we got into the business, and in essence, we are the biggest losers of all. Jeff Hicks is the only individual who walks away with cash, paid to him faithfully, over years� plus anything else he could steal.

Finally, Jeff leaves HDR, after single-handedly creating the mess, and having dedicated absolutely no effort, not even perfunctory, in trying to clean it up. We, unfortunately, are left trying to clean up after his lies, misrepresentations, and thievery. We will continue to endeavor to rectify, to the best of our abilities, this unfortunate situation, just as we have done over the last four months... as Celt fades out, under cover of darkness that thieves find so appealing�
Respectfully and Sadly Submitted,
Herbert Shriver"

JBelk did screw a lot of people too, though I doubt that guy is building much of anything now.

He was another one that deserved everything he got.

MH,
How about we split the deal on Flinch's rifle. One of us do the paint, and the other do the Cerakote.

I'll spring for either.

I'm serious too, Flinch. Shoot me a PM, and I'll send you my address.

LMAO thinking of the night I received the rifle, after well over a year, and broke the freakin McMillan within 10 minutes. That WAS a classic. I called them up the next day and demanded something instantly and was give the tactical in exchange which was later traded for the best damn rifle I've ever laid hands on, a Sisk 7 Rem Mag with a Nesika action.

Ain'tthatabitch!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Utterly speechless here after reading Stick's quote off SH.

MtnHtr <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

CAS,

Deal, thats the least I could do for a man that offered to take me elk hunting. Flinch is good people.............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

I'm almost wishing I had some work needing done to toss Doc Shrivers way just to help him turn things around..

Mike

I TOLDJA your deal was sweet....but it shoulda never been mandated.

I misread the sign a smidge and was looking for HD Rifles to explode on the scene,via various "Package Deals",to assorted respected fraternities.

Now I feel like a heel,because it was an apparent dupe job,from inception.


Excluding.......your deal................(grin)

You and those damn Mexican McMillans.

I swear that those guys thought you must have been running the damn thigns over with your car!

You haven't busted the Sisk yet, have you? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK...


Let's be analytical,lookin' at this.

Does ANYBODY feel the new ownership is out to reap fresh meat? I'm taken aback a smidge,because I received Jeff(Celt),as being a "good guy",for a while.

I ain't beyond building a rifle outta spite,in order to set things a little bit "right".

Thoughts?!!?................

I was hell on them for a while, I mean that one was literally broken in two.

The Sisk fares well.

1. Its gotta be an '06......

MtnHtr

PS I'm going to bed.

You've been drinking too much tonight haven't you?

I understand your thought but a couple things come to mind... You don't do charity, you said it yourself... How long do you wait to see what else settles out? More stuff is bound to fall outta that tree...
art

I've a soft heart.

I cain't condemn new Owner's,for something they're not privvy to,or have zero reign over.

That being said,I'm stubborn enough to prove a point,despite today's respective odds. Mebbe,that's why the Dow horns me up?!!?(grin)

My stance is simplistic. I smell ripe opportunity,for new growth,in an "old" semi-established Firm. Whether that firm is receptive or not,has yet to be discussed.

My perceptions are both simple and concrete. There are enough gents here,steeped in this debacle,who might could roll the dice on the future. I would roll the dice,just for the plain [bleep] of it and to counter Celt's [bleep](Did I mention,spite,is a viable denominator?).

HD owes me NOTHING(nor have I personally traded with them prior),I'm not involved there,in ANY way and I'm simply muttering thoughts outloud.

It would humor me,to right this sunken ship...............

He's absolved.

Even I could pen a January 2006 Disclaimer,lending priority to the "24Hour Campfire Faction".

With the same stroke,one could enter penalties for late delivery,substandard goods,relative qualities acceptance standards and broad disclosure of the proceedings.

And I cain't even hold a Laser still....................(grin)

You always struck me that way......


Roads

Oh Jeezus...

I'm laffin',here................

fwiw & imho,
It's a ticklish business holding other folks money unless you are a ledger Nazi in the extreme. I personally HATE holding someone else's money when their product is in limbo. As a matter of fact I try to avoid that at all costs. In short it screws me on a fairly regular basis as some folks back out when their order comes in and they have zero down... That said I'd rather deal with that, within reason, than to chance any hint of impropriety...

Feel like I've dodged the bullet on more than a few occaisions. Got my money and action out of Arnold Arms just before they listed to port and went down with all hands. Actually took delivery of a stick from Jeff despite more than a few issues being unsatisfactory. The last, regretfully, was the .375 H&H that John Ricks built for me a couple years back... In short I was one of the last few who's rifle made it out the door before things got really strange. The shame of it is that his work was superb. UNLIKE JEFF HICKS, John Rick's work was indeed World Class. I have not one iota of regret on the rifle he built and consider it the finest I own...

My passion is custom rifles, upland shotguns, and custom 1911s. It simply got to the point in the last few years that I could'nt swing what I really wanted without spending principal. Hence I packed up and moved to Colorado for the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing Program at the suggestion of Darcy Echols. I dunno as I'll make anything of it, however, I'm enjoying the hell out of giving it a whirl...

That said the sobering realization is that very few folks really join the cream of the crop in this trade. It's also sobering to realize that most riflesmiths/pistolsmiths are RUINED at their desk rather than in front of the lathe or milling machine...

I can only thank circumstance that I don't have to make a living at what I currently do and hope to do. It's a passion made possible by my Grandfather, Charles R. Warren Sr. (1914-1986), to whom I owe soo much. That said the stories of John Ricks, Jack Belk, AA, and Jeff Hicks stay on my mind. Some simply dropped their responsibilies whereas others perpetuated a slow motion train wreck with malevolent intentions. In short they broke the sacred trust of their fellow sportsmen and thus did all of us a disservice...

Regards, Matt Garrett
Chesapeake, Virginia
757-581-6270

Its still early in the game. The new owners now have the chance to make all things right. How long have the "new owners" had the business?

Guys, thanks for allowing me to get the truth out there and help a shooter get back whats his. Some places I was not as fortunate as I was banned from www.snipersparadise.com for tellin the same story. Frank at www.snipershide.com has always been a great fella and hasnt deleted anything I had to say.
In regards to the LSU guy....I actually did my EMT courses in New Orleans, was slated to attend Paramedic and Nursing schools there as well but took an offer from J Hicks to become GM of that operation and 6 months after arriving, was fired because he didnt like me telling him that it was necessary to build rifles on a daily basis, or telling him that he forgot to do something. This is no bullshit.....I had to hang a sign over the door that read "PUT THE F'N EJECTOR IN".

The guys that are still there will no doubt continue to do quality work, and if asked to do so I will assist them with customer service and makin sure that stuff goes out ahead of schedule.

Bruce

Good post Matt. When you need something to do other than you own stuff drop me a line..... I have a 700 or two you cold tinker with.
I think I could trust you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dave

Mr. Hicks and your compadres (aside from Bruce/STARMedic);

After reading this and the related threads, here and via snipershide, I can tell you this much:

If it were my rifle(s) and my money involved, I would have had the BATFE, your local prosecutor's office, and likely a local civil attorney on your azz LONG, LONG, LONG ago.

That's not a threat, since I have no dog in this fight. It is merely an opinion, and an observation that your clients have been FAR more than fair with you.

IMHO, it's high time you started to attempt to return the favor. Try to get that rolling by returning THEIR property and their money.

Yep, the rifle I received and quickly broke the handle was missing the ejector.....

Yeah, you're finding out what most of us already knew; you can make a living but you won't make money.. LOL.

Most of us do it because we fully love firearms.

Mtn. Hunter and CAS, you got me all choked up with your offers. I would include Big Stick too, but he is an azz hole <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You guys are great! You are still all welcome to come out and go elk hunting. The draws are this month, so get on line and get your applications in. My treat at no cost.

Bruce, I look forward to hearing from you and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you getting involved in this mess. YOu are a gentleman and a scholar.

Jeff....ah hell, I can't even put into words what I feel about you. Big Stick pretty much covered it with his elogent way with the written word. Jeff, get used to being on your knees, cuz when the law catches up wth you, Bubba in the joint is going to make you his bestest buddy. My bet is bubba will screw you just like you did all of us. There, I was mean, happy now Spike <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

Flinch, see above and start letting your fingers do the walking. BTW - if you've got any paper from them stating anything at all in terms of work, time, cost, etc., get it ready, make copies, and send that to the folks you talk to.

I beg to differ with redneck, if you have business skills, you can make money as a smith, if you don't have business skills, gunsmithing is no different than any other business, it will fail.

There are plenty of sucessful gunsmith shops, those that combine good business practices with good workmanship.

Bruce,
good to see you here. Glad that you are getting involved in getting flinch's rifle back. Guys as bruce said he has been around for a long time I rememeber him from the old shooters days and have kept in contact with him via the chat room that rose from the ashes of the shooters chat room. tom

I just read this and am stunned!! I had to lean hard on Jeff to get my 338 Win from him in 2003, but I thought that was just because most good rifle-builder's are fickle like many good craftsman. The 338 he built me is a fine rifle and I got my money's worth. BTW, there was a recent write-up in a major gun magazine about tactical rifles, and they talked about Jeff and HD Rifles.


John Ricks quit the business becasue he wasn't making enough money to survive. He did right by me.

I recommended both of these guys on this forum and Ricks on Shooters before the Campfire.

I humbly apologize if I had any influence on anyone here to the point where they decided to use Jeff Hicks. If we do decide to have a Flinch's rifle Campfire collection fund I will contribute.

I'll also not likey recommend another rifle builder ever. It seems any of them can go whacko at any time. I guess It's for me to buy that lathe and do this stuff for myself.

Flinchy,

Instead of sending that rig to CAS and then to MtnHunter just send it to me. I have an almost new can of Rusty Metal Primer and some Farm & Fleet JD green. I�ll even give it some range time just to work out the kinks. Wouldn�t want you to break a nail dialing in that thang!!!!

I haven�t forgotten your offer either. I�ll be mule deer hunting in Wyoming this year, and that's my one trip for the year.

Seriously, I hope this thing works out in your favor.

Jeff

I too feel bad - a year or so ago - I visited HD and was treated very well --- Clay and Jeff both treated me and my friend nicely - he had his 308 painted, re crowned, bedded and a muzzle brake installed - liked it and then dropped off a 300 WM -- that was almost a 9 months ago - all he wanted was the same - been getting the run around anout missing steel for brakes ect - told one more month a coupla times.

I must now bust azz to let him know he needs to bust azz over to HD and get his shyt. I see no reason why if we showed up they couldn't just give him his stuff - if it isn't there I am thinking a visit to the local PD is in order. Stolen goods.

STARmedic aka BRUCE -------- is there someone there on Saturdays?

Flinch,
I would be happy to contribute to to the "Makin' things right fund"!

Just PM me if I can help.

Huntr

Dude!

When I shipped your Sako AV off to Del Rio the other day, I thought you'd be happy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

Maybe I can get it from the post office before they deliver it.............
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

badger

Flinch, Count me in on the fund. Just let me know where to send a check. Feel quilty that I actually got a good one from him before eveything went in the crapper! TM

As of right now there wont be anyone there on Saturday. If anyone here has equip there that was scheduled to be worked on, Give Clay a chance to make it right.

I just got word asking me to come by on Monday to make an assessment so that I can help formulate a game plan to help these guys get out from under the rock that Jeff has piled on top of them.

I have info for Flinch that I will convey to him via telephone later this evening.


Bruce

I do not know the man, but many sang his praises before all this.

But we have good friends that the marriage seemed to not be going smoothly and he ended up disappearing for a few days and ended up with no job, seems it turns out that he was in an accident, got suspended from his job and all because he was caught either doing Cocaine or in possesion of same.
So although I don't condone our friends actions, it does give some idea what may have contributed to it.
Wife now hates him, but I don't.
Life can be a bitch.
I have been lucky.

Bruce,
You seem like a stand up guy. It's too bad you weren't there all along.

Hopefully Clay can make things right and start over. From all accounts, he really got screwed in this deal worse than any customer, and it speaks volumes that he is gutting it out to make things right instead of cutting and running like another piece of [bleep] who posted on this thread.

Ever since I read Stick's post about having them build a rifle just to spite Jeff, I've been mulling the same idea. I wonder if they've got a good 223AI reamer in house?

You guys are gonna have me tearing up if you don't quit....

John

Yeah..group hug<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike

LMAO!!!!! i swear i nearly pissed myself when i read that. Hope you get your stuff back Flinch the way you've bin screwed around makes me sick.

I probably should have clarified my post. You can make a living but you won't get rich...

It depends on how aggressive you want to be, how much money you have on hand (not borrowed) to set up a shop, your residence area and how much competition you'll face, both in residence and in skills/specialty.

I have strived to attract enough business to keep ME busy. I have no wish to add personel for several reasons: Quality control, government red tape, excessive paperwork per employee, size of my shop etc... Adding another smith would cost me a LOT of money and I have no desire to do so.. It would also take another 3-4 years to attract enough additional business to make it pay unless I got into AR-15 type stuff. I want to retire from full time work in 5 years. Maybe if I was 35 I'd go for it. At 57, I"ll pass.

As I stated above, I make a living but I'll not get rich. That's ok. If I wanted to get rich I'd be in a different business, but WITH that comes usually a lot more stress, more hours, more risk. BT,DT.. No thanks.

To anybody who wants to get into this business, you better have a minimum of $15,000 just for minimum tools, then you have to find a suitable working area AND you'll have to fight local laws/ordinances since you will be working with hazardous materials. Insurance will cost a LOT and it's mandatory. There are only a handful of companies in the US that will insure a smith, and they charge dearly. Your operating expenses will eat up any profits for the first few years until you build up a customer base. Most people will not trust any newbie to handle their pet firearms, and I can't really blame them. The majority of my business comes from word of mouth and repeat customers. That takes time so you better have either a second job or a spouse with a salary that can handle the bills until you get going (or both)..

For six years I worked a second job from 4:00 am - +/- 8:00 am feeding 500+ head of dairy cattle for a local farmer. I was lucky; they're a great bunch to work for and the time slot fit well. The obvious problem was that I only saw my son from after school until about 7:30 pm.. I was finally able to quit just this last April and now I have to make it on my own. Like many businesses, there are slow times and very busy times. December, April-July usually sux.. The rest do well and Sept/Oct really is the heaviest traffic.

Wishing the very best of luck to whomever tries to get into this business...

Hmmm... it looks like Celt (sad use of a fine moniker on this one) has left the internet, too.

Pards have been pleading with me,to take the plunge.

I think a man could both offer a Skookum product and poke loot in the Bank,rather easily.

My train of thought is geared at a series of zero fluff,Meat and Taters Rifles. Basically,it is an untapped Market.

Lotsa fluff out there and not a whole lotta grit........................

Where I see most smiths failing is in ineficiency, trying to offer too much to too many people, and not specializing and filling a niche, efficiently. If you invest your time making tooling and work in batches, you can dramatically reduce the amount of time required to do the machine work required for most functions. Don't want toxic chemicals, then only do stainless barrels and bead blast them. Don't buy every chambering reamer under the sky, stick to the standards. Don't accept work that doesn't pay, and don't waste your time on guys that have all sort of neat ideas but no cash in hand. Do communication via e-mail, and promptly let folks know the status of their projects. Charge a reasonable rate, I can't see with the overhead, tooling and knowledge why a smith would charge less than $60/hr. If your charging chump change, clients will figure your work relates to that. Say you get 30 hours billable work per week, that's $90k gross a year, not rich, but once you dial things in, you should be able to batch and turn out a decent number of rifles. If you want to make more $, then you'll have to expand the shop, and hire more folks that you pay $30/hr and bill out at $60/hr.

Absolutely. I married a show piece, but prefer to hunt with something a little more practical. You build it and keep the price honest and I'll knock on your door.

Wait a minute. I thought that was what Savage does....



(running away now, very quickly... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Relating to making a business go, here is a "VERY" good statement.
"Don't accept work that doesn't pay, and don't waste your time on guys that have all sort of neat ideas but no cash in hand."
I was in the engine building business for 15yrs (dad now uses the shop for his retirement) and that statement is very important as I see the rifle building and engine building business as scary similar.
Dave

Dave
My fav saying is,"this isn't a hobby."

Actually, you're right. The customs I"ve built for the most part have been good, solid somewhat basic rifles. Good barrels, care in machining and the KISS method keeps it economical. A couple went for the fluted bolts, custom walnut stocks w/checkering etc., but you can get a wonderful rifle for well under $2,000, sometimes half that..

For the most part, you're right there also. Although try to charge $60/hour around here and you'll be spending time soaking your thumb in brown stuff... I'm sure AK is a different story..

Many guys get into this with no clear idea of what they really want to do so they do general work until they find a certain market or calling for a specific area. It's also a mental thing; for example if I wanted to really make a bunch of dough, I'd get rid of 3/4 of my jobs and convert to semi-auto military stuff and/or AK-AR work.. I don't because I just don't care for those firearms. If you don't like what you do, you'll be no good at it simple as that.

For most guys who do custom work, having a bluing operation makes some sense. At least it allows more control over time-of-delivery promises..

There are many times I've said 'no' to a project, even though the customer has been a many-time repeater.. There is a lot of stuff to do out there that will make NO one money and it's best to just let it go.. Sometimes it's the hardest thing for newbies to learn; saying no.. I learned early and got good advice from a 'smith who was a true artist and I was fortunate enough to see what it would be like.

When I move to SD., I will further cut down on most types of work and concentrate on mostly customs.. The shop will be set up for that alone and it will be efficient enough to be able to keep the process short and delivery on time. I'm looking forward to it..

You know what is really funny about this whole thing ?

Celt was back here hinting about how he might start doing some work on the side..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> He was at it again.

F'n POS.

Tony

With Today's components,there are some very interesting(to me) possibilities.

My thought process are simple,though mebbe a touch analytical. I think a Shrewd Dude could offer Killer Rifles,priced fairly,with a workload that would be brisk as a minimum.

I've dabbled enough,to know what works,what don't and have zero qualm standing firmly on a known quantity.

I think a shingle denoting "Working Man's Rifles" as being open for business,would keep a fella on his toes,trying to fulfill all inquiries.

Can't believe others ain't doin' it.....................

i'm thinking mickey coleman is doing that ...

It could be as easy as taking a Remmy in 7-08 (or 30-06 or 7 mag or 270 or 300 Win or whatever), putting it in a McMillan stock, setting the trigger at 3 lbs, then finding a sub moa load that you sell with the rifle.

Would guys but something like that?

I am going to get my FFL this year. I have often thought of taking a rifle I buy for resale, glass-bedding it, adjusting the trigger, etc; and find a load for it. I then sell the load with the rifle, and the cost will depend on how it shoots. I wouldn't have time for a lot of load development, but I could find a decent load quick enough.

However, Pat Eddinger (E4E) tried something like that for a while. I think he charged $300 plus the rifle. i don;t know ho well that went.

Blaine, Isn't that what HCR, CPR and others are doing for $300-400. It's really a matter of a little skill and "TIME".
Dave

This is a good thought process so I wanted to think out loud here.

First, I think a lot of people are already doing this in one form or another, we just don't hear about them. Mickey Coleman was mentioned, I think he recently quoted a price of $1100 to turn out something or other basic - Mickey stock, good aftermarket barrel, trued and bedded - and that's over the price of the donor action. Another smith here - sorry, too lazy to look up the thread - quoted about $1025. Anyway figure about $1450 if you start with a new action from a supplier.

Blaine brings up a point, what kind of basic rifle are we talking about? Most "basic" rifle buyers I think of will be hanging around the Wally World gun counter, someone who wants a custom, well, how meat and taters are we talking here? Aftermarket barrel - Krieger, Douglas, ER Shaw or Adams and Bennett? McMillan stock, I assume, or will a B&C Carbelite do the trick?

Anyway, a custom gun guy will most likely want a nice rifle. There's Charlie Sisk, whose website prices mostly start with 3's, Hill Country Rifles, bigger boys like Bansner, Brown Precision and so on. Nice rifles all, but a bit more than meat and taters. Remington will sell you a brown box with a meat and taters rifle that you take out of the brown box, mount a scope and go hunting with. I know several guys that are die hard hunters that use box stock Remingtons and laugh at custom gun owners since the custom guns don't kill the game any deader, or more often, at least in the hands of these expert Hunters (with the Capital H).

Local guy in Caldwell and his brother will make a totally custom rifle, they used to do custom guns for Intermountain Arms before they close shop. Little back room gun "fixit" shop at Shapels wold make you a custom gun based on whatever you want. Saw George Vais, he of the muzzle brake name, at Sportsman's Warehouse the other day. He will build you a ncie custom rifle as well.

So what is the market, i.e. how many unit sales per year do you figure to get? What is the price range? How do you get your name out in front of your target audience and distinguish yourself from the other couple dozen little 1X2 ads in the back of Rifle and Handloader?

Not trying to be contrary but businesslike. You gotta have a business plan before you go to the bank unless you bankroll yourself. What is it about your (general you) business that is going to make it more successful than the other 1,000 private gunsmiths operating out of little shops from Miami to Fairbanks?

Great idea in theory but I'm curious to see the specifics.

Very good questions...

To fill a specific niche, one must do research.. WHO in your area is doing it. WHERE are they doing it? HOW much are they charging? WHAT is the quality of their work? WHY would I think I can make it?

Ads in magazines cost money, and IMHO the return is minimal. I did an informal poll all last year and asked customers (other than repeats) just how or where they heard of me. The majority was from other customers, i.e. referrals. The rest was from the yellow pages. Some came from this, and other, boards.

I tried ads in local newspapers. Worthless and costly. The phone book has been good and I've just increased the circulation by going to a county-wide book instead of the local; this after most have told me that's the book they used.

A website will work but it takes maintenance, costs $ and if you don't have the right name, it can get lost. It also takes someone who knows what they're doing to set it up. Most smiths are too busy working on firearms to work on websites.

After some years experience, obtaining a good retail shop in a decent location can be very well worth it, as long as there's enough space and electrical feeds to allow the proper equipment. One caveat: you better figure out a way to work either behind a wall and have a 'clerk' out front or else you'll have 'standers' at the counter all day long tirelessly relating their hunting stories.. Work doesn't get done that way.

There's a fine line between the box rifle and the Sisk rifles. A good, working-man's rifle can be had for 1000-2500$ depending on who owns the action and what the end result is going to be. IMHO I think most guys will want a custom rifle BECAUSE there is no factory chambering for what they want and/or because they want a fancier, almost showpiece, firearm they can brag to their buddies about. However most customers are, by choice or otherwise, money concious and cannot/will not spend any huge amount just to get a showpiece. That's for the Echols guys and the like. As long as there are other options available for the customer to choose from in case he/she wants a bit more 'custom' than the meat-&-potatoes type, you will be able to take in more business.. First custom I ever built was for myself, if for no other reason than to make sure I could do it and do it well enough to sell. Basic stuff. Classic M70 action, polished bolt races, faced receiver and lapped lugs, Shilen #4 contour barrel chambered in .257 STW 26" finished length w/target crown. Williams bottom metal, standard Winnie magnum stock with channel work to fit the contour, glass bedded. Reworked trigger and gloss blued. Topped with a medium Leupy and as long as I do my work, the groups are .60 +/-.

As far as being successful, I feel that comes with good, solid workmanship, reasonable (fitting the job) prices and excellent customer service. When I quote a job I also fully expect to fill the order well within the time frame. Unless I'm in the hospital, that rifle's going out when I say it is.

Location is everything as it is in any business. If you are in the right area, you won't have to do much shipping which can be a PITA and is time consuming.

It does give me ideas though for the time when I'm finally able to get out of TAX HELL WISCONSIN and head for South Dakota.


I'm getting too long-winded here.. sorry..

I would think a guy - working out of a shop about the size of a 2 car garage could do ok.

If you limited yourself to Rem 700, choice of maybe 3 barrel makers and mcmillian stocks --- Seems a guy could "get in a groove" and do ok - enuff to fund his own projects or hunting trips.

Options (it seems to me) chew up time and time = money.

I would think if you were to offer 2 types of rifles

1.Tactical

--- Rem 700, badger bottom works and lug, Rock, Krieger or Obermeyer (whomever as long as they are good) barrel avail in 2 calibers 308 and 300 WM. Choice of McMillian stocks. Options --- KW shift knob and muzzle brake.


2. Tater's Rifle

--- Basic campfire rifle -- Rem 700, Barrels by whomever and avail in most of the standard calibers -- I can't see making a weird rifle - that is springing for a custom reamer or less than popular chambering and not passing that cost on to the customer.(if the customer is willing to put up the $$ fine) Stocks by McMillian. Options would be the muzzle brake.


--- Coatings - a guy would have to get set up to offer some type of ceramic coating or farm out EVERYTHING to Fit for Duty - as long as you were up front with the customer and if you send enuff work Doug's way - I am sure a price point could be reached that would make you both happy.


Sure start up capitol for tooling and stock on hand would be needed - but every business has those needs.

Terms of sale - 1/3 up front to be sent with donor action, 1/3 when all parts are there ready to be assembled and the final 1/3 when said rifle is built and ready to ship. Keep in touch by email - send a digi pick of finished rifle (lets the customer feel all warm an' fuzzy knowing the smith is speaking the truth), courtesy stuff.


Obviously you are at the mercy of vendors be it Rock, McMillian, or Badger but a guy buying a custom rig is doing it cuz he wants quality and will wait --- as long as you keep your vendors happy (pay them on time and in full) they would keep you happy -- be honest and call when prroblems arise -- every complaint I have EVER heard about gunsmiths isn't the wait - its not being kept in the loop when the wait keeps getting longer.

Also - it seems weird to me that given how in expensive computers are that more smiths don't use them to keep track of orders, materials and such. I would think there is software that would help in that regard.


It just seems to me that if you do one thing numerous times with little deviation you get fast and time is $$.

Kinda like McDonalds -- there is a reason a guy can go up and order a #5 with a coke -- its laid out with little substitution -- makes it quicker on the counter monkey and easier for you.


Just thinking out loud.

I think that someone who has really done it right is George Gardner.

He's built his reputation on doing fantastic work, and doing so in time frames most guys can't sniff.

He keeps a pretty large inventory of components, which is very capital intensive, but also has developed relationships with one-man barrel shops that allow him flexibility in delivery times.

George isn't the most expensive guy around, but he also isn't the cheapest. The fact that he turns projects so quickly allows him to charge a premium over what some other smiths can get.

Of course, going into business to copy someone else's idea rarely works. However, if someone were to do it, they could do worse than following George's plan.

FWIW, George uses about an equal number of Rock, Schneider, and Broughton barrels. Mike Rock told me that he's buying about 80 barrels a month from him, so that should give an idea of the volume required to support the type of overhead that George has.

The way to get yourself out ahead of the dozens of other folks doing the same thing, is doing the things that they aren't doing, and that pizzes off customers. Communicate with customers to let them know where there projects are at, give realistic delivery dates when you accept work, and make the darned dates! Simply getting work done on time, or letting folks know immediately when a delay arrises will put you head and shoulders above the competition.

I've yet to have a shop that got a job done when they say it would be done, and they didn't miss the date by delivering it early!

There is definately a market for well executed solid hunting rifles, ie plastic/stainless with an accurate tube/chamber and good trigger. I wouldn't waste my time trying to accurize factory tubes and working up custom loads. For the amount of time it takes, ie money, you could put on a custom barrel and have a known good quantity. Who in their right minds would pay the same money for a factory gun with a worked up load as the same action with a custom tube?

458 lott,
let me know if you ever find a gunshop that has a gun readly when they said it would be done. I have yet to find such a critter. tom

You guys need to shop around more. I've had several smiths deliver before thier promised times, enough so that I'm expecting it now.

Of course, I've gone through a few that missed the mark by a BUNCH!

I started using Mickey a couple years ago and only recommended him because he does very good work at a reasonable price and time schedule. Now several Campfire members are singing his praises. He builds meat & taters rigs on up to full blown Benchrest rigs. I don't know how he's doing on the bottom line but hope good service rewards him a good living.

Interesting concept. Thinking out loud- A person could get 700's at wholesale,Bed a High-Tech stock on it, Put on some lapped Talley alloy ring sets,set the trigger @ 3lbs and do a basic load development for a common bullet weight. I'm thinking you could do well with that...

I see mucho insurance liability with plan. No, you need to do this with factory ammo, otherwise I can see someone sueing your pants off.

You got a point there...

If you guys know anyone who frequents the www.snipersparadise.com forums please advise them that in my offer to help the shooters get their gear back in workin order this is the only response to my having been banned from the forums.



Sounds like a cop out to those who may be owed SP rifle packages.

Bruce

Heck, I got one just on time as promised. Freakin rush job that'll probably need a new barrel before it'll ever shoot. Ward

Bruce,

Having read your post makes me feel lucky I got my rifle outta Jeff. I sent my parts in back in Nov 03 and didn't get the rifle back until July 04. Jeff kept telling me they were swamped and were having production issues and mine would be out in a couple of weeks. He even went so far as to say I'm bringing in Bruce to help clear things up. Had I known then. I was calling and emailing every week and getting the same song and dance. I probably only got it back because you arrived in town.

Anyway, I feel like an idiot for sticking up for him too.

PS, welcome to the campfire.




Mac

I was one of the lucky one's to get my rifle back as well, but it took a bunch of proding and pesting to get it. Here's the other down side. Along with all I had requested I wanted the barrel re-crowned. He promised over the phone he would do it. In fact, he said he would do it that afternoon and have it ready to go. A couple weeks go by and no rifle. Then I get the bill and the rifle. I was busy at the time and didn't look at the rifle real close. I sent the money off and then a day or two later when I had time I took a close look at the rifle. It had not been re-crown, but I sure as heck was charged for it. I figured lesson learned and I was not about to send it back, now I'm really glad I didn't!

Trivia piece for the day... The common hack tree, hackberry, depending on where you live has an interesting Genus name...

That would be "Celtis". So now you know Celtis a common hack...
art

Mac and others, a lot of people were fooled, Im not a Harvard PhD but I think the term is Sociopath. I gave up a lot to come out to TX to help someone I thought was a friend.

Thanks to all who have welcomed me, I wish it had been under different circumstances than this.

Bruce

Any idea where he's headed? Hopefully not back to MI.





Mac

Redneck has ALWAYS been on time and has fantastic communication.

No bullchitt in his business.....

You haven't used Mickey Coleman then............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

badger

I appreciate the good words but please don't put the bar so high I can't jump over it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Sad to say but there have been times when I was overly 'optimistic' about when I could get a job finished but I try to keep them at a minimum.

west and badger,
I am sure that both redneck and mickey finish a rifle when they promise. It is just that I have a issue in that I do not like the idea of having to ship a rifle away to have it worked on. I keep trying to find a smith in colorado that i can visit in person and talk to and that will finish the project when promised. tom

I think you ought to call them "Big Stick Rifles." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, though, I wonder if you might try limiting your product in the early years. One type action, one type metal coating, one kind of stock, one kind of barrel - length and contour. And limit your chamberings.

Henry Ford made one car and one car only, for years. It was just right and came in only one color. He made a fortune, and then, when he could well afford it, he offered options.

I live not too far from the Randall knife factory. Been there about 3-4 times with a knife-making buddy. Seems like Randall started with only a few knife styles in the beginning, and if you wanted a Randall-made knife, Mr. Randall would sell you what HE thought his knife should be. Now, after years of success, he offers a bunch of styles, but in the beginning, no.

So, picture this: "This is the Big Stick Rifle. The stock is perfect and I am not interested in offering another kind. The barrel length and contour is perfect for this cartidge. Do not ask me to alter perfection. If you like the Big Stick Rifle, I will sell you one. If you have questions, or you can't make up your mind, stand over there. No Big Stick Rifle for you."

If you've got it right the first time, and if all your friends and acquaintences are telling you you've got it right, and if people you hardly know are offering to buy the rifle right out of your hands, seems to me you shouldn't have to waste your time taking special orders - the rifle is special enough.

Mind you, everyone who knows me thinks I'm a lousy businessman.

- TJM

I personally know about 10 people who bought rifles from HD and had hell the whole time. I also know several people who have HD rifles and are very happy with the rifle, when they've finally recieved it.

Here's a post I made over on Snipers Hide about a HD rifle my dad bought on December 5 2005.

Ok here's my story.

A guy on this site had a HD rifle for sale in new unfired condition. My dad bought it. It was shipped to me. When I got it I discovered some problems with it before I ever shot it. I got on the phone with Mary at HD and told her the whole story. The Badger bolt knob was loose and the bolt release would not work.

She told me to ship it back to them and they would pick up the tab on the shipping there and back to me.

Long story short, the trigger that was in the rifle that I got was not the one that was on the rifle when it went out HD's door. HD discovered that someone had epoxied the brake on the rifle with so much epoxy that it had run down over the crown of the rifle, I'm glad I didn't just go out and shoot the thing. Whoever had installed the bolt knob before it was sent to HD had done the worst installation job that you would believe and it had all ready come loose.

None of the above work was done by HD Rifles. Here's what they did to fix my problems.

They put a new Ops Inc brake on the rifle, the Badger one had gallded some threads when they were trying to take it off.

They put a new Shilen trigger in the rifle. The one that was on the rifle when I got it could not be adjusted down low enough and still be safe.

There was enough material on the bolt handle for them to put some threads on the shaft and reinstall the handle correctly.

The completely recoated all the metal in Ceracoat.

The rifle was re-shot to check for accuracy.

They did not charge me one cent to do all of this.

In my discussion with Mary I told her where I lived, south of Houston. She said that they would be in Houston on the day that I was promised my rifle back and offered to hand deliver it to me. I accepted their offer and met them to take delivery of the rifle.

The delivery went off without a hitch. Both Herb and Mary were there. They are both very nice people and gave me the impression that they are working really hard to make ammends with all the people who have had problems in the past before they got involved with HD Rifles.

I am very happy with the rifle an will post pictures of it and groups shot just as soon as I get it to the range.

What happened before they got involved is beyond their control. I'm very happy with the treatment I recieved from Mary, Herb and the crew at HD and am sure if they continue these type of business practices they will have continued success.

Tony Burkes

In the same vain as this last post, I'm ready to talk about how well we hope HD rifles will do now that its under a new regime..

Celt screwed himself up no doubt but beating a dead horse only goes so far...

Mike

The horse aint dead.

Chuck

I think it is.

Is it?

Here's my rub on the gun making biz...

If you were to try and make "meat and taters" rifles...you would have to know your price point......so figure in cost of materials, tools, space/shop, and your time.....it adds up quick. If you use quality components....it adds up quicker. Then figure out how many you have to sell before you even break even...at your price point. Plus then everyone wants something just a bit different - classic mac - or moutain rifle- and things get muddied.

Then the factories are turning out rifles that shoot really well. Say I buy an LTR in .308 from remington...it shoots 1/2 moa with FGMM....I buy it for $800...what will your rifle offer me that I'm not already getting? How much more will I have to pay to get that?? Or the Remmy Ti ?? Or the Kimber Montana?? And will it be set up so that I have to reload for it? Will it shoot any factory ammo, or just a certain bullet type/weight??

You get the point. I have a lot of respect for the Mickey Coleman's and others out there. They really have to be doing it right, just to survive, let alone make a living. Plus they have to be able to buy things way cheaper than I know about. They also have to be doing a large volume of work.

There will always be the Echols because they fill a "niche" that allows them to make a blueprint and sell it for (IMHO) outrageous amounts of money. I will never buy one. Remmys, rugers, winchesters, savages, kimbers et al have killed everything just fine. Provided plenty of accuracy for me to take advantage of. Rarely if ever bobbled.

There are plenty of luny's out here too..I am one. I just think the majority of rifle buyer's buy factory in one form or other. To get them to pay more, and make a profit, might be harder than it seems. YMMV of course...what do I know???

I'm not saying I never get custom work done. I do. I have had, seen, shot, played with my share. But they have never been "have to's" for me.

This reminds me of one time I was set up at the gun show in Birmingham. A guy stopped by my table and asked, "What do you get for a custom rifle?" I told him, "$1500 if I furnish everything (that was about 6 years ago)" The conversation that followed went like this:

Him: What will your rifles do that mine won't do?

Me: I don't know. What are you shooting?

Him: A Remington 700 in xxx caliber.

Me: What do you hunt with it?

Him: Deer.

Me: You just go hunting 4-5 times a year?

Him: Yep.

Me: You don't need one of my rifles. Yours are filling your needs/wants just fine.

Him: In other words you are telling me that my rifle will get the job done?!

Me: Sure it will. So will a 2 inch dick but who wants one? (My apologies for the crudeness but it just popped into my mind and even I thought it was a great answer)

Him: (Pauses and bursts out laughing) I get your point.

The bottom line is that almost any rifle sold today, in an appropriate caliber, is totally adequate for hunting. I don't build a custom rifle on the order of those who have the finest walnut stocks, inletted and checkered by whoever is the best stockmaker today, engraved by Winston Churchill but I make a good utilitarian rifle that may or may not be chambered in a caliber that's offered by the factories. People buy a 'custom' rifle for many reasons. My job is to try to provide them what they want at as reasonable price as I can.

I don't always make money on the jobs. I have had a chamber to score while chambering and have bought a new barrel out of my pocket ($297) to make things right.
Stuff happens. I'm fortunate in that I don't have to make a living out of the shop but I don't want to have all outgo with no income, either. I'm blessed by having some great customers and friends. I love 'making chips' and learn something new every day. Can't wait until I officially retire from the insurance business and never have to leave the shop/house.

Thanks to all of you.

MC,

Classic
dave <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Henry Ford approach is of merit IMHO,for a fledgling venture.

But what we have Today,that Henry did not have the luxury of,is superlative off the-shelf-componetry,to expedite a high quality end offering.

Had been talking to pards,the last few days,about that very thing. The key(IMHO)is to offer a superlative end product,that utilizes the blessed componetry that is readily available.

I think it would be a breeze to carve a Signature niche,that extolled those inherent component virtues,but wasn't plagued with superflous minutia.

The key,IMHO,is to offer goods of repute,coupled in complete harmony,that function as advertised(as a minimum).

I think a S/S Sucks based Signature line up in a 50/50 black/white swirl,would be difficult to screw up,on any level.

Good stuff sells itself.................

Stick: If I may offer a thought?

I would base such offerings on the new Borden Alpine/Timberline actions or the Stiller Predator. Take 'em out of the box, wash 'em off and get to fittin' the barrel up. No muss, minimal fuss..the customer gets a higher end product worthy of 'Signature' status...you spend less time on the lathe...everybody wins.

For those that have a donor action, they could either be taken in on trade for resale/use later or sold by the owners to help finance the project.

If you decide to green light the venture...here's wishing 'ya all the best. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I think a S/S Sucks based Signature line up in a 50/50 black/white swirl,would be difficult to screw up,on any level."


Let me kow when ya get the ball rolling. I'm such an easy peg for the sucks and them swirly patterns. One could say I'm easy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




Mac

Mickey, did the guy buy a rifle? That reply was great. It needs to be on a business card or company slogan. After hearing that how could the guy not buy one?

And Big Stick when you are talking about the signature line are you implying for one of the big companies to do this or a niche for the little guy? Or maybe both?

I just read this whole thread and you said pretty much what I was thinking the whole time:

I can drive 60 miles and deliver my rifle to a guy who has ties to his community , works for folks close by , and has become a friend . I don't care how highly someone is reccomended in an internet chat room , my rifles get shipped nowhere . Except Pac Nor and that was before I found my 'smith .

After saying that , my pardner - along with some other folks - lost a couple rifles and cash to some fellas in Odessa a year or so ago after doing business with them for years . And he only lives 60 miles from there .

If someone gets a donation deal going , pm me and I'll chip in for Flinch .

Hopefully, you don't think I slight craftsman like yourself. I "use" rifles multiple times a month. Some people depend on me to protect their lives with one. I also shoot for fun and food. I like a fine rifle more than just about anything. I have pondered trying to get into the "smith" biz myself.

My "rub" was merely that to start from scratch today, would be a bit more difficult than it may seem. The internet and forums like this add to the difficulty. How many people/stories have you heard/read, that you wouldn't know about, where someone had trouble or problems with gunmakers?? (HD anyone??) I personally have had trouble getting "work" done. It gets expensive for an average working guy to try until he suceeds at getting what he wants. Price is not indicative of quality either. Trial and error sucks....IMHO.

I am glad you are around Mickey. I really am. I will be getting a "custom" in the near future. You and Melvin Forbes are the top dogs for what I want. I am working on getting the funds and deciding which "niche" I want filled. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know customs are personal. I have spent a lot of money already trying to get what I want....don't have it yet. I also know I will go down that road again.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[quote]Mickey, did the guy buy a rifle? That reply was great. It needs to be on a business card or company slogan. After hearing that how could the guy not buy one?[quote]

Nope. He was just cruising through the gun show 'kicking tires' and he left feeling pretty good about his rifle.

I suppose I got started like many others...started doing work for myself and then others came along. I think the internet has really been good for me. I did a job for Cheaha and others and they were pleased and told others. Word of mouth from happy and satisfied customers is better than any advertising you may write for yourself.

I've been doing gunsmithing for a little over 10 years now and have only been stiffed a couple of times and even then it was not for much money. I've had a couple of people who have not been happy and I've posted about them.

I think that I build a 'semi-custom' rifle. Melvin is a 'click' above me in that he builds his own actions. I've made the statement that I can chamber and bed a rifle as good as any gunsmith out there but I can't do it any better than a lot of them, either. You can only chamber a rifle just so good. Bedding is a lot more involved than slopping some bedding compound in the stock and letting the action squish out what it doesn't need. It takes a while to learn to bed properly.

Anyway, you guys have been great to me and I do appreciate it. I hope we have a good crowd in April for Appreciation Day.

ah, the motorcycle mickey appeared at the gunshow. wish i had been there ...

Pumpgun,

shoot me an email if you like but I had Rich Reilly of High tech customs build my custom rifle. He finished on time as promised. I would drive down to Colo springs all the time to bug him and watch him work. He loves BS'ing and showing us nonsmiths how things get done. I highly reccomend him!. Give him a call and let him know your coming and he'll be there.

www.htcustoms.com

I dunno squat about the gun building business, but I know what I'll buy. I don't think Stick's idea is unique, but his interpretation in not too common methinks(picture Dan examining Sticks vision via the Internet.) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Anyhoo, There are some folks doing that I think, and delivering great rifles. Cooper comes to mind, some of their lower end rifles are in the ballpark cost wise, and they shoot like a house-a-fire! THAT'S what I want...knowing the gun is going to shoot...not HOPING it will shoot. I don't need the bells and whistles for the most part...gimme something I can flog a mule with and still hit something with at a fair distance. Despite my fairly good luck, it has not been unblemished. Buying a no-shooter sux...pardon the pun.

Yeah, you can get your canned production Remchestage for a few hundred $...if you tell me you KNOW it will shoot out of the box I got some bridges I wanna sell ya. Come on down!

Thanks boman, I had all ready dropped the rifle off at a local gunsmith. He does good work, but he is so sloooow. I think I have heard of the guy in the springs I think saddlesore had said something about him before. tom

Stick if you really mean this and set up shop post
it here and I will have some basic work for you ,just
like rifleman said . Cheers Northcountry