So my last few rifles have been Remington 700s that were blueprinted and received a custom barrel (Hart or Lilja). But when I look at the price of the Montana rifle action I wonder if would be almost the same cost to start with one of their actions. How good is this action - is it so good that bluprinting is not needed? Also if you bought a Montana action would you get their barrel too or buy the action only and add your favorite custom barrel? What do you think - looking for suggestions. Thanks

I saw two of the Montana actions at the gun-smiths shop. From what my gunsmith told me they could do a better job of makeing them.

The rifle action should match the use.The Montana is a heavy simple action,great for that some day 358Norma,a poor choice for a 260 blacktail rifle.When I told my gunsmith I had picked up a Charles Daly(a poor choice,too heavy) for a 6.5x55 project,he said they were much less work to fix than a Montana.

I have heard mixed results.. some say great, some say not so great. Some say they come straighter then any Win 70 they have seen before, some say they need a bit of polishing. In my case, I want a working, safe rifle, wich the MRC is!!

When I get enough money, I will order two (maybe 3) to make a 30-06 and 375 H&H, ( the third would be a 416 Rem), as my hunting rifles, wich should cover all the game in the world. I like the looks, and the detalis of it, and combines some of the best from the win 70 and mauser 98 actions.

I really dont belive those who only have negative things to say about them, beacuse of what I have read from pepole who have hunted more game than I have, and gunsmiths with way more experiance then me, who say they are god actions for the money. In any case, I will get a smith to do the work for me, and inform him I want a nice specemin, and if any problems with it ( wich I doubt ), return it, and get new one. That way you get your moneys worth. Look at rugers actions.. any problems with their quality? Its casted by ruger.

The pepole at MRC can square the action, and lap the lugs. It costs 65$, and I belive they can polish the race ways to slick it up. Great company from what I hear, and if any problems, they will help you out.

Oh, and its maybe 5oz heavier then a Win 70 action. So, its not the heavy montster pepole try to make it out to be.

This begs the question: If it can be done for that amount, why not just make it square in the first place?

Really, I dont know. But from what I have heard, they have been very straight to begin with. It probably takes them more time to do it, and therefor additional money. But anyway, an ordinary MRC action is a fine base for a hunting rifle, and with a god barrel, shoot MOA or less. If you want the best from it, have them lap the rings, and square it up, just like any other action..

Should maybe try to send them a e-mail and ask?

Yeah, I wasn't trying to be hard on them more than any other manufacturer. It just seems like in today's CNC world a production process could be developed to cut threads true to center, face actions and cut lug recesses perpendicular to the centerline, et cetera. I'm not a production or machinery engineer, so maybe I'm way off.

I had Montana make me a LH 358 using their barrel. I could not be happier with the results.
Serengeti stocked it, they are excellent also.
I'm an owner and user, not a hearsay poster.

This is one case where I would prefer a modified and blueprinted Remington 700. I'm a die-hard Model 70 fan, but I've also owned a slew of Remington 700s over the last 34 years, and in my opinion the basic Model 700 is a well-made, well-machined action that's built from very good steel, and it's also very well heat-treated. Properly reworked, it provides a very solid foundation for a well-built hunting rifle. If the controversial Model 700 trigger system bothers you, it may be replaced altogether with a Timney or Canjar for a modest price, removing that possible concern right off the top.

In my opinion, the Montana Rifle Company folks are too pre-occupied with turning out an action that'll sell for sort of a low-ball price. I'd rather see them put more time and quality into them and sell them for maybe another $100-$200, or even more if necessary. And the very perceptive question that's been asked as to why they charge an additional $65 to square the action, rather than do it right from the beginning and simply charge more, is very telling.

In general, I prefer standard factory actions such as the Model 70 or Model 700 over small-production outfits, that is unless the small companies go all-out to turn out the best product possible, and without compromise (such as Granite Mountain) and then the price goes way up.............

AD

Couldn't agree more.

Chuck

I have examined a number of Montana actions and they don't appeal to me, but, I don't doubt that they can be made into good rifles by 'smiths who know and care what they are doing.

The real problem is that most hunters/shooters cannot or do not want to pay for top quality and that is reflected in most outdoor equipment on today's market. I would rather have a pair of really fine rifles than a dozen "o.k" ones and extend this philosophy to all my gear, but, not having kids to feed/educate makes it all a bit easier for me than many others.

Quite a few guys I know are buying Montana actions and seem happy with the results, "horses for courses", I guess.

Interesting, I was in Bill Leepers shop again about a month ago and he will buy no more of the 99's.

Chuck

I had a M1999 RH SS SA Mag. made up into a 26" tubed .224" magnum wildcat. It had a Bansner stock on it.

The first action was so rough and full of damage that it was sent back and replaced. At that point I cancelled the second one on order as I could see that they were very heavy and the second action on order was a SA SS 308 size.

The second action was checked over by my smith and it was true and square as it came and needed no 'blueprinting'. The only real thing that it needed was $250 worth of slicking work to finish it so it looked ok. The action was rougher than a wood stove.

I would only consider a M1999 if I wanted a left handed action and was aware of its weight and rough finish. I would go thru Serengeti like JBMI did. I like those guys.

While in the middle of this M1999 craze I discovered Kimber rifles. Thats the path of least resistance.

To each his own.

Somehow pictures of actions just make them look good. You would have to hold this one in your hands and look it over to find that it needs lots of work to get it past the stove bolt catagory.

All that shows in this picture thats wrong is the trigger guard bow. Look close at it and see that its sides are cast sharp and square and not even rounded off a little. Such shaping must be done right. The M70 Classics are rounded off some and ok but crude as compared to a Pre 64 M70 trigger guard.

There are lots of things that need lots of work on that casting.

Here is my first M99 action, this one is from early in the sponsorship run, and is a standard chrome-moly with magnum bolt face and .375 H&H magazine box (it became a .458 Lott).

MR designed and developed this action to sell to the custom gunsmith customer. Mine is well-polished above the wood line and the internals. I talked about it at leangth with three gunsmiths who have used it for projects, and the actions built at the time mine was are suitable for their uses. The idea was to keep the cost down to a dull roar, not to compete with Wff Hein. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Folks the excellent is the enemy of the good.

jim

I have three of their actions, a .35 Whelen, a 338-06 and a 6.5 Swede. None of them have had anything done to them except reducing the trigger pull. The 6.5 will shoot in the .200's and .300's with several different loads. The other two are 1/2 to 3/4" rifles.

Jim, in my opinion the concept of "CUSTOM" is all about excellence, not 'mediocre' or even 'good'..............

AD

Allen: you have higher standards than others regarding your firearms. And I respect that! Would even like to see some of them, after reciving e-mails from Darcy Echols(sp) with picture of his work.

The MRC actions are god, and if milled from steel instead of cast, it would surpass the win 70 action in gas handeling, and equal it in every other area.

But, if one dont like the casted parts under the stock line, you could buy it from serengetti, fully polished, cleaned up, trued etc etc, for $800. That is still cheaper than a custom milled reciver, and not lacking in any way, except for not beeing forged.

I would not put any merrit in forged actions being better then cast, and if so, not by a huge margin. I have not heard about any critical failurs with Ruger actions, and as we know, they are cast as well.


I would rather have the MRC in a hunting rifle, and the remington in a target/varmint rifle.

It's amusing that the same guy will prefer a "modified, trued-up, blueprinted" Model 700 action and yet blast MRC for charging $65 to do the same thing. If it's "only" $65, the original must have been pretty good. (How much does the slicked up Model 700 cost?) Why doesn't every manaufacturer true-up and blueprint their factory actions? Because most gun buyers won;t pay extra for it, and tehy have to compete with Howa, Savage, etc.

I have a MRC in .358, bedded and stocked by Serengeti. The MRC barrel came handlapped, and the gun has shot 1/4-inch groups frequently with several different handloads.





I do have to admit that the action is heavier than a Model 700, though.

40oz for the short action, 44oz for the long.

Based on the responses so far I think I will stick with the Remingtons with a custom barrel and blueprinting. Any other alternatives I should look at that woud give me a great rifle that is in the same price range?

I think you should consider the stiller. Somewhere around $600.00. Remington footprint and all the truing already done. Much closer tolerances and generally a high quality piece from what I understand. You can also look at the Borden. I think it's a bit more money than the stiller but also very high quality stuff. After that you start moving into the realm of the Nesika and BAT and so on. I can speak first hand on the Nesika and it is truly sweet. Frankly by the time you fully customize a remington to the same standards it's pretty close to a wash money wise against the nesika or bat and they'll probably come closer to gettin' your money back outa them vs. the trued Remmy. Generally, I think I'd start with the Stiller or th Borden if I were gettin' ready to do a custom right now. Apples to Apples the MRC in stainless trued and lapped is still in the $585.00 range which is right in line with the Stiller, so it's a pretty reasonable platform and their customer service is very good.

What is the purpose of the proposed rifle? What would it's barrel size be and cartridge etc.

For a target rifle the Remington 700's are ok and 40X's are better. For a hunting rifle I like the three position safeties of the M70's along with CRF. Other brands like Kimber and the M1999 have these features.

If I made up another target rifle or heavy varminter it would be on a Bat action.

Here is Tim in TN's rifle using a Bat action.

I think the M700 is fundamentally a better-built action in the first place, and if you go with a well-selected used doner rifle, that action can be had for an extremely favorable price. So it's better and cheaper from the get go, and blueprinting and fine-tuning is a straight-forward proposition. Stuff that starts out as better usually ends up that way as well. That's my experience, anyway.

I also think that the Model 70 action, in just about all its guises (except for the mid-60s), is a better action as well. The pre-64s were machined from barstock, and the post-64s were forged, then machined. That's for starters, and once again, doner rifles can still be had reasonably.

AD

The 1999 bolt handle really lacks adequate clearance on a scope set in low rings. MRC is aware of this design problem and is contemplating a re-design. Ruger had the same problem with the early MKII's but introduced a deeper scalloped cut in them several years back which improved the clearance greatly. To me the 1999 does nothing really well or really poorly which is why, given its weight, I'd sooner use an M70 action for a CRF project.

Brad, whats the weight of a win 70 action? MRC weight 44oz

I would love a "mauser" handle on the MRC action.. I like the design.

fwiw,
The 700 without question...

Regards, Matt.

If I lived where I would be hunting in temperatures below freezing I would pick the MRC over the Remington any day of the week. I have expereinced to many triggers freezing up on my Rem 700 to consider them a good rifle for cold wet hunting. I just sold off over a dozen Remingtons and have gone to Win 70's, MRC, and a Ruger and a Hein is on order. The MRC is surely not a custom action and that is reflected in its price. It is a great action at a great price. If you want to polish it up to make it look better go for it. But if seriously want to condone them, then by all means fork over 3 1/2 times as much for the Hein.
Ya pays your money and you get your choices.

Or lube appropriately and make your own "luck"..................

Snowwolfe, those Hein's are phenomenal looking actoins... you're up in the Swans, right?

Nortman, I believe they are within an ounce of each other one way or the other.

The Montana action was designed from the beginning to be an action to be finished up by custom gunsmiths. They could then do as much or as little as they liked with it, unlike having to buy, say, a Dakota action for $1200 and essentially paying Dakota $700 to do the last $250 of work.

The gunsmithing folks I've talked to who understood all this say the Montana action takes less time to true up than the average pre-'64 Model 70, which often suffered in "straightness" from the heat-treating used.

Let us also not forget that D'Arcy Echols puts an average of 80 hours into the post-1990 Winchester M70 Classic actions he uses on his custom rifles.

Serengeti works over their Montana actions and spends an average of about $250 getting them good to go. I have one in a 7x57 and it works fine.

If all you want is for the thing to go bang accurately, screw a really good barrel on an unblueprinted Remington 700. I have had this done a great many times and they have all shot as well as the many blueprinted 700's I've shot over the years, generally in the half-inch range or less.

MD

John, Canadian gunsmith Bill Leeper has posted the exact same thing re: the MT's ease to work with and general "trueness."

Very interesting to hear your comments...

What do you think of the MRC 1999 in comparison to the CZ?

Your's is a voice in the wilderness. It's been interesting watching the development of the Montana action from gleam in the eye to delivery of the product.

Montana stated from the very beginning that they wanted to offer raw material to the custom gunsmith trade and did not want to offer finished rifles because then they'd have to compete directly with the big manufacturers. Everybody wants something different, different level of finish, different stuff done to it, whatever. They couldn't please everybody so they produced something that, as you said, a custom gunsmith could then do as much or as little as the customer wanted.

Montana has been very up front about that from day one.

Throughout the development Montana stated explicitly and often: "We're going to offer unpolished raw material to the custom gunsmith trade. We are going to leave it as 'raw material' to keep costs down and because no matter what extra we put into it, someone is not going to want to pay for that extra and other people will want something different anyway. The custom gunsmith can finish it, polish it, do whatever they want to do with it."

Public: "Hey! This is unpolished and not fully finished! What gives!?"

Gotta love human nature.

Not sure what you mean by the Swans, but I live close to Anchorage Alaska.
Lubing a Remington trigger has nothing to do with them freezing up. It has to do with a tiny amount of water getting inside the trigger and freezing causing the clearances to be zip. Inside the enclosed box remington uses the water has a difficult time escaping. That is why I went to the bullet proof Win 70 style triggers. Never had a Ruger or Savage freeze up on me either. The close tolerances are what makes the Remington trigger very good, but they are also what makes it capable of freezing up. If they work for you, GREAT!
But I will never hunt with another one where temperatures can drop below freezing.

Thought you were in MT.

As to the rest, Huh? I never made any reference to liking the 700 or its trigger...

I wonder if anybody has tried to blow up a MRC action, to see how it acts.. maybe some photos, could quiet those who think cast actions are not sutable..

Volunteering?

I'll go off of how many Ruger's I've seen "blown-up".

Honestly, never understood all the [bleep] cast action get .... Ruger's do just fine. When I question someone why they like forged/machined vs. cast/machined I always get the same answer ... "I just do" .... no logic or reasoning.

My MRC action is smooting up pretty nice. I've been cyclying the piss outta while sitting and watching TV and other dead brain times. Its head and shoulders above where it was, perhaps still not as slick as an old M70 or M700 ... but then again, its not old yet. The new CZ actions I have felt new are just as bad if not worse than my MRC99. In fact my ADL felt just as "gritty" as my MRC did new .... several hundred cyclings has that one getting pretty decent now too. Got the MRC (SS) for $350 .... and for $350, its friggin' awesome!!!!

YMMV.

I like both for the low cost.

John, thanks for reminding everyone what the original intent
was from MRC. There are two or three malcontents that post
here who are negative about nearly every subject discussed.
Everyone knows you have to own an Echols if you want an
accurate firearm...

It would be a lot more funny if not so true!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So............what's your point? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

AD

Im wondering.. is it alot of work bending a MRC handle, so it gets the "bent" 90 degree handle some of the big bore mauser actions has?

What would it cost?

I was being facetious Allen. As Seyfried said so well in his article, you don't need an expensive custom rifle to have a good one for hunting. Everyone here knows you like/hunt with expensive rifles, and that's fine if it floats your boat. You just need to realize not everyone has the inclination/money to do this, and the MRC 1999 action is a fine option for a lot of us. If it isn't up to your "standards" ok, but like Mule Deer said, it was never meant to come out highly polished and finished like a custom smith would do.

Sam, in this particular thread, I've made an effort to state my preference for the Model 700 action over the Montana. That's been my intended point, anyway.........

AD

Allen,

Just curious have you messed with one of the slicked up Serengeti M99 actions? Curious as to your thoughts about them in the more refined form...

This post is the one I was referring to and the one about "lowball" pricing. I agree 1000% that the 700 action makes an excellent platform for an accurate rifle. I own several right now.

Brad--

So far I pretty much like the 1999 action. Mine is the "short" version, which has a 3.1" magazine (or thereabouts, I forget the exact measurement) which is perfect for the 7x57 I had built. The trigger, floorplate, etc. are all good. Since CZ does not make a smaller "short" action, I'll take the Montana for smaller rounds. (Which is probably one reason CZ is building some rifles on the Montana action!)

Only two relatively minor things have bugged me so far. First, they went through a period of trying to make the firing pin fall too short and quick. My action just happened to be one of these, and after about 60 rounds it started occasionally misfiring, as the firing pin spring spring got some use. (Some experimentation showed it was the action's fault, not my handloads!) Anyway, I called Serengeti and they explained the situation, so I sent the rifle back. It came back in 3 days, fixed.

In the process I learned that they fix the firing pin spring with a Model 70 type system, with a clip on the pin, rather than the simpler Mauser 98 system, which makes replacing a broken spring a snap. The Montana action has been called a combination of the best features of the 70 and the 98, but here I think they chose the wrong Model 70 feature.

But that is a minor quibble, since I doubt I'll ever have to replace the spring again. Other than that I really like it so far, partly because it has been a long time since anybody built a true mid-length bolt action of classic style.

The rifle is also very accurate, and not only has the Montana action but a Montana Barrel Works stainless barrel. So far it's favorite load is the 156 Norma Oryx and H4350, which will go into .5" or so, 3 shots at 100, but it groups everything into at most 1.25".

MD

MuleDeer,

Any idea exactly what the fix was regarding the misfires? Just curious since mine's been back now a second time to MRC to resolve the same issue. Haven't been able to try it out since I got it back the second time as Fedex cracked my stock on the return trip and I'm still waiting for the resolution. Can't wait to try it out and see if the misfire problem has been resolved. Any more signs of misfires?

Thx

I'm really wondering how you can argue with that.

Chuck

I had similar problems with my short action from the original charter subscribers. No misfires but rather occasional light primer strikes and powder ignition problems. I guess I was dumb. I called them and bought and paid for a heavier firing pin spring. I think they now sell and stock three weights of springs, 23#, 25# and 30#. Have no clue what they sent me as I merely asked for a heavier spring, but it fixed my problem.

interesting... Mine got a heavier spring the first go round, but it still wasn't always popping the cap. This go round, they replaced to cocking piece, bushed the firing pin hole and replaced the spring again. It appears to strike much harder as best I can tell, although I haven't been able to shoot it due to the broken stock. I was just curious what other folks impressions were and if the problem was ultimately resolved. Sort of lowered my level of confidence in the rifle. After two returns and now the broken stock, I'm startin' to think it's got some bad mojo, but it's definitely smooth and a generally nice rig, so I'm hopeful. I think the cerakote and microslick definitely improved the action. Because of the misfires and light primer stikes I haven't been able to tell too much yet about accuracy, but it seems to have a lot of potential.

They may not have checked the firing pin protrusion the first time. I can't see how the cocking piece would make any difference.

Mine was in great shape when I bought it except for the inherent stickiness of the new stainless steel surfaces and a very tight bolt. Some polishing stones on the races and jeweling the bolt took care of all the smoothness problems in the action and that beat sitting there just working the bolt to try to accomplish that. I did nothing to the exterior except have my 'smith bead blast it along with the barrel he installed. I'm extremely satisfied with mine and it was square right from the gitgo.

Folk's have different ideas as to what custom is. Is it fully custom from one of the famous makers, semi custom with a lot of alteration, or just a few aftermarket parts put on a factory chassis. It is all in your definition. Allen's is obviously full custom from someone like Echols.

They install a cocking piece that creates a longer firing pin fall, along with a stronger spring. This solved the problem in my rifle.

Firing pin fall in the rifles that have problems is normally around .200 or under (in mine it was .204). The new cocking piece creates a pin fall of .235 or so.

I gather the shorter pin fall was an experiment that lasted only a few rifles. I am sure they will fix any that don't go bang every time.

MD

Interesting info. Thx, I guess I'm feelin' better about it now. Hopefully, that will resolve the remaining misfires I was encountering. I can live with growing pains as long as there's a valid explanation and repair. I have misgivings when I don't know why they did something. I plan to put a bunch of rounds thru her at the range before she sees a hunting situation so should shake out any remaining funkiness.

A true point Allen makes on the definition of Custom, but, and I think Sambubba spoke to this issue some a few post up, sometimes the want (or realistic want) is a little less than full custom, & sometimes the budget is a little less too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .
I am a lefty that wanted a lefty rifle, and got tired of looking for doner actions. That is where I think MRC has a niche.
If I were right handed I would just by M70's or Kimbers and not look back.
I bought this barrled action from MRC and had McMillian Stock it. Curently it is at Hill Country Rifle getting a few other things worked on/accurized. But as someone who acctually owns one, and was not looking for all out custom, I am pleased. At the end of the day you get what you pay for. This rifle is not a full custom job, but it ain't off the rack either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
(yes the rings are too high, and Hill country is fixing that as we speak <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Mark G,
As a leftie I could not of said it any better than you did. Nice looking rifle. I am awaiting my McMillan for the 458 Lott I ordered from MRC.

I looked arounbd at all of the options..CZ, Rejm, Win Classic, Pre-64, Mauser, Global Trading Mauser, CD Mauser, etc...

I went with the Montana with a custom barrel profile that they are making for me too. yes it is in a lighter caliber and I know the actions at hearty in size, but the short action is also perfectly sized for long bulets in the 6.5 Swede and 7X57 Mauser; not a typical short action made for 308 family. Since I am using the Swede I liked this very much. Love the pre-64 features and the Mauser features together. I just handled one of the Model 3 CZs which is actually a MRC action. Perfect little rifle. I am a big guy and this rifle will resemble an express rifle anyway so it was never intended to be a featherweight.

Rifle magazine just did a review of the company and gave them a thumbs up

Another classic piece from Venturino... He should stick to SAAs and BPCRs...imho

Regards, Matt.

I considered building a lightweight 358 Winchester using the Montana Rifleman Model 1999 barreled action. I called to place the order and asked what would be the weight. I was told that the barreled action alone would weigh about 7.5 to 8 pounds � this is my top weight for the whole rifle, including scope. I guess that I could learn to shoot it sans stock and sights!