How many have built customs and then wished they had done something different after receiving the finished product? What would you change if you could??
I had Kampfeld build a 7 SAUM for me........I like the rifle, and it is a shooter, but would do things differently if I could start over. I ordered a fluted Krieger barrel for the build and, if I had it to do over again, I'd change 2 things. I ordered a heavy contour fluted barrel, the flutes on my blank were very shallow.....if I had known how shallow they would be I wouldn't have paid for fluting. After using the rifle for awhile the heavy contour lost some of it's appeal.
So, if I could go back and do it over, I'd probably order a lighter contour and skip the flutes.
How many have built customs and then wished they had done something different after receiving the finished product? What would you change if you could??
I had Kampfeld build a 7 SAUM for me........I like the rifle, and it is a shooter, but would do things differently if I could start over. I ordered a fluted Krieger barrel for the build and, if I had it to do over again, I'd change 2 things. I ordered a heavy contour fluted barrel, the flutes on my blank were very shallow.....if I had known how shallow they would be I wouldn't have paid for fluting. After using the rifle for awhile the heavy contour lost some of it's appeal.
So, if I could go back and do it over, I'd probably order a lighter contour and skip the flutes.
Based on what I have seen for sale in the classifieds quite a few have had regrets.
1) Too heavy. Took me a long time to realize that I really do prefer a lighter rifle. And that you really do have to count ounces to ensure you come in at a comfortable 7.0 to 7.5 pounds for standard chamberings.
2) Short tubes. Everyone on the 'Fire talks about how handy short barrels are. Took me a while to figure out that I like a slightly muzzle forward balance. Hence I prefer 24" barrels over 22" barrels. Psychological ? Maybe. But I like 24" tubes.
3) Stock Ergos. There are certain stock ergos that I prefer, eg: thin wrist, high comb, not so wide fore ends. Love the looks of Pre-64 M70's and their original stocks. But, prefer mine in a McMillan Hunter's Edge. Have a wall full of stocks for various makes of rifles that were just "not quite right" for me after i bought them and tried them on my rifles.
I finally have a pretty good idea of what I like and don't like. But, took several dollars over several years to gain that "experience".
I have built several and did wish I had done things differently on a few. Like Orion said I have settled on what I really like and my last few have been perfect for my tastes.
I put one together a few years back......Montana rifle action , 26 “ shilen, B&C stock .......shot great. Was a 25-06, killed a dandy speed goat........but it was heavy. Sold here on the fire. It was a great rifle but I moved on.
This is the crux of being a looney. The syndrome is if only so and so were different. If I can offer any advice it would be this: Go with the fastest twist you think you might need, Get the lightest barrel that will work for your use, get the highest grade wood you can afford then go higher, or the lightest synthetic available, Spend money on good glass and go hunting enjoy.
Some good points made. Weight has been top of the list for me. Worried too much on barrel muzzle OD dimensions, barrel length<---->velocity, etc. and not enough about weight. I've luckily avoided the twist rate issue so far by using "when in doubt, go faster" with an example being my 6.5-06AI that is 1:8" and throws 120's as well as 160's.
The other advice would be having an in-depth conversation with the gunsmith about ammo, especially if you handload. If you know the bullet you want, make up some dummy loads and make sure it's throated for exactly what you want. SAAMI chamberings can seem too generous, and there's a chance you'll have buyer's remorse if you have your heart set on a specific bullet and don't make that clear upfront.
I built a couple and wasn’t far enough up the learning curve myself to give the gunsmith good direction.
Too heavy contour Wrong twist (too slow - made the mistake of following his advice and he was old school and not on the long heavy bullet train at the time. Told gunsmith what i wanted but it didn’t dawn on my to write it down for him (he did not write it down and invariably both were wrong the first time) Gunsmith was local, which was good to deliver parts in person and go see him to stay top of mind, but he ended up going radio silent on me for almost a year
I’ve made both of them work and both shoot a lot better than i can though so it wasn’t terrible. But with hindsight i would definitely do the things above differently
I've been a member here a good while and have read a lot of "regret posts" about rifle builds. For a hunting rifle the regret I remember seeing most often is the rifle came out too heavy, and it's usually due to selecting a too heavy barrel contour.
A couple of my early ones had shanks that were too long.
I was into wildcat cartridges when I was younger, too. Wish I hadn't done some of those. Plenty of factory or close to factory cartridges out there that fit the bill just fine. I believe the only ones I have now that are wildcats are 25-204 and 250 AI. Love both.
How many have built customs and then wished they had done something different after receiving the finished product?
I had several custom firearms built when I had more range and gun shop experience than hunting experience. Every one of them was way too expensive for the advantages that it actually provided. After I spent more time hunting, and after I read a lot of Allen Day's posts, I realized that a CRF Model 70 with good glass and a good synthetic stock is all that I need. I have a 30-06 and I'd like to get a 270, 308, 300 WM, or 338 WM for a backup, but I'm done customizing firearms beyond that.
It was a .338/06 and I told the barrel maker to copy the contour. Well,it went from .338" caliber to .224" caliber (it is a .22/6mm). In the picture it weighs almost 11 lbs.
But the barreled action fit in the stock with no problems.
I've only had one rifle I truly regretted. I ordered a custom barrel and what was delivered was different than what I'd discussed with the barrel maker. The email trail seemed pretty clear but they wouldn't stand behind their promise. (It was Hart in case anyone cares.) My gunsmith tried to make the best of the situation and built a good rifle but it wasn't the rifle I was imagining and I was never satisfied with it. I "accidentally" had a .220 Swift built that was too nose-heavy and wouldn't stay on the bags. Most failures I've had came down to time ... by the time the parts arrived and the 'smith could do his work, my interests had drifted onwards and the gun wasn't what I was dreaming of anymore.
So one thing to do differently is to be sure that what you're ordering is not just what you want now, but what you'll want when it arrives. Another is to find a 'smith that wants to build what you want to receive so that you're staying 'in the box" so far as his established skills.
It's usually weight, gunsmiths love to talk you into heavier barrels because they're a lot easier to get to shoot well. Building a light rifle that shoots well is more of a trick. I've finally got a couple that are just right for what I want.
It's usually weight, gunsmiths love to talk you into heavier barrels because they're a lot easier to get to shoot well. Building a light rifle that shoots well is more of a trick. I've finally got a couple that are just right for what I want.
That’s a fact. Seems like every time one of the buddies wants to build a light rifle a new Smith seems to wanna use a heavier barrel. Either cause it’ll be easier to shoot or cause they seem to be easier make good groups out of. All good till you have to hump one of them boat anchors around.
It's usually weight, gunsmiths love to talk you into heavier barrels because they're a lot easier to get to shoot well. Building a light rifle that shoots well is more of a trick. I've finally got a couple that are just right for what I want.
That’s a fact. Seems like every time one of the buddies wants to build a light rifle a new Smith seems to wanna use a heavier barrel. Either cause it’ll be easier to shoot or cause they seem to be easier make good groups out of. All good till you have to hump one of them boat anchors around.
I had this issue with Hill Country Rifles on two custom builds.
I specifically told Matt at HCR that I was looking for lightweight Mountain Rifles, both came in an excess of 8 lb
Both were barreled by Benchmark, and both have gone down the road.
Ditto. Maybe not several but you would think a gunsmith could follow instructions or call you if something is wrong.
Had a barrel delivered straight to a smith and when he put it in the lathe he could see it was bent slightly - not a lot, but wobbling several thousandths. Instead of calling me he went ahead and chambered it and installed it, then told me he could see it was bent. Like, WTF dude?! Ya think you could call me so I could return it to this otherwise reputable barrel maker who would surely have sent a replacement?
Told another guy I wanted three identical stocks built off of the same pattern which I supplied - same LOP, same pitch, same size pistol grip for diameter and curvature, same same same everything and make them slender. Got back three distinctly different stocks, none of which was like the other, and all way too fat. Fortunately a fellow I've mentioned before, RJ Renner, was able to do a beautiful job of fixing two of them. The third's LOP was too short to save.
Other than that, rifles with a too heavy barrel contour were the biggest mistake.
Montana 1999 Action, 26 inch heavy barrel in 300 H&H and a light weight Lone Wolf stock. Butt of stock is short and narrow so kicks my ass at the bench. Accurate enough.
With the number of good quality factory right-handed rifles out there, I'd be hard pressed to build another if right-handed. I won't rule out a lefty 6.5 creedmoor with a #1 pacnor tube on it. Other than that, I really think a guy could save a ton and just buy factory these days.
Yeah it seems like both gunsmiths and some barrel makers (Kreiger) want you to use a heavier contour. I have found a consistent pressure in that direction when what always makes me happy is a thin contour long barrel. But that took some money spent to find out.
And when ordering a barrel, as mentioned before, not getting a slightly faster twist than normal has made me sad more than once.
Another big mistake I always make is counting on something to be ready when the gunsmith says it will!
Reading this discussion reminds me of several times in the past when this question has come up. Reading this thread I'm reminded of one thing especially from many of the responses- not getting your desires in writing with the gunsmith to be sure he is capable of following your instructions exactly- or as close as he can make it . Also, not doing enough homework before hand on your own to determine what each manufacturer barrel contour actually means for weight and size, what twist rate you will need for the bullets you determine up front, what stock design you need for drop at heel and toe, etc....
In order to get a custom you will be happy with all these decisions have to be made ahead of time and communicated to the gunsmith. Trusting a gunsmith to read your mind is a recipe for a poor fitting, heavy, disappointing rifle. Just about the only way to get to this point is to handle a lot of rifles until you know exactly what you want.
I've also found some gunsmiths are great at the details, but poor on the big picture. Others are good at the big picture but poor on the details. To explain, I've had smiths who build a great feeling rifle that fit most of my criteria, but the finish would be crap or the barrel channel would be cut sloppy. I've also had smiths that did great work on stocks, finish was great, but the barrel would be too heavy or action wasn't as slick as it should be or stock wouldn't fit properly even after exact specifications were communicated.
Finding a gunsmith you can communicate with and has the same idea you have about rifles is invaluable. If a smith doesn't seem to be listening to what you have to say or is continually trying to convince you to do things the way he prefers, you need to find another gunsmith. Been there, done that....
I've only had gunsmithing done by one smith who gets it correct (the others have passed away). Then again, I have largely stopped using gunsmiths for builds, in favor of using factory Savage Precision Target actions; Remington 700 bare actions purchased new; Remington 783 actions disassembled from new rifles (a real sleeper action that even Remington may not know what it has); and AR-15 lowers and side-cocking upper receivers with custom Hart barrels. The others are barreled with custom made prefit barrels from Shilen; Pac-Nor; Hart (AR-15's); and Criterion. All are fitted with barrel nuts and precision recoil lugs so no lathe is needed, and I get exactly what I want. These barrels tend to be much faster twists for various copper monolithic expanding bullets, or those compressed powdered copper, copper-tin, jacketed varmint bullets. For example I use 1:9" or 1:8.5' twist for the .204 Ruger. I also prefer Pac-Nor's polygonal rifled barrels for their accuracy and ease of cleaning. That way I can also swap out barrels depending on what I am using it for. Hart made me a 1:9" twist 24" varmint barrel for the AR-15 without a gas port to make a bolt action rifle, and two 20" .223 Wylde chambered barrels with 1:8" twist, with no gas port also for bolt action uppers. All these shoot under 0.5" at 100 yards for 10 shots, and are great varmint rifles. It takes a bit of learning, and expense for hand tools, but now I am having as much fun building these things as shooting and hunting with them.
... I've also found some gunsmiths are great at the details, but poor on the big picture. Others are good at the big picture but poor on the details. To explain, I've had smiths who build a great feeling rifle that fit most of my criteria, but the finish would be crap or the barrel channel would be cut sloppy. I've also had smiths that did great work on stocks, finish was great, but the barrel would be too heavy or action wasn't as slick as it should be or stock wouldn't fit properly even after exact specifications were communicated. ...
Being able to execute well on the "Big Picture" as well as the "Details" goes a long way toward sorting out the masters from the wannabes in many different areas of life...
Weight, wait, twist and smiths. I have several nice ones, a couple which had to be redone. Anymore I would about as soon get a SPS and put a good trigger in it and run. Way less stress and hassle.
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.
My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.
I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.
These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.
Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.
Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.
That's just one example.
Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.
There are MANY MANY other examples too.
So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.
I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
Buying a cheap stock for a mountain rifle build instead of forking the $ for an Edge! Having the wrong stock on a rifle you spent good money to build is a let down when you excitedly shoulder it the first time. Ugh!
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.
My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.
I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.
These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.
Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.
Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.
That's just one example.
Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.
There are MANY MANY other examples too.
So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.
I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
. . . . the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, . . . . The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
It's been that way for 200 years.
It's not likely to change tomorrow.
Winner winner chicken dinner!!!
Wheel tubs, drag slicks, 90/10 shocks & skinnys up front, 4.56:1 spooled diff, 5000RPM stall coupled with a 7800RPM big block is a lot of fun. In a straight line. Not so good for a daily driver.
So many rifles I see posted fall into a similar category. I think part of the reason is there are more people just shooting for groups and enjoying working up their latest pet load. And the percentage of shooters vs hunters has changed over the years. This has pushed the envelope in the shooting industry. It's a good thing.
A hunting rifle has different parameters. Balance should be one of them. And I don't mean just the center of gravity.
Which kind of rifle are you wanting to build? This should be the first question on your build sheet.
I have a 257 Wby on a M70 SS Classic w/Lilja #3 3-groove, 1:10" @ 25" in a McMillan edge Winchester Classic pattern w/Blind magazine.
To do over again, I'd specify a shorter shank and I'd use a Winchester Fwt pattern edge stock. However, it's really splitting frog-hairs.
I have a 4.5-14x40 Leupold mounted on it in Tally LWT's on the above described rifle, it's just a few oz over 8#. The rifle is very accurate from a bench and I have a lot of confidence (and some photo evidence of dead critters) that I can shoot it well from field-positions as well. I built it as a no-frills hunting rifle, it's that, and none of the above stated changes would make me use the rifle any more or less than I currently do.
My biggest mistake was my very first custom rifle chambered in 300 win mag - built far too light for the volume I like to practice with a hunting rifle. Only mild regrets since with numerous builds have been largely superfluous with work done to bolt handles, flutes etc.
How many have built customs and then wished they had done something different after receiving the finished product? What would you change if you could??
I had Kampfeld build a 7 SAUM for me........I like the rifle, and it is a shooter, but would do things differently if I could start over. I ordered a fluted Krieger barrel for the build and, if I had it to do over again, I'd change 2 things. I ordered a heavy contour fluted barrel, the flutes on my blank were very shallow.....if I had known how shallow they would be I wouldn't have paid for fluting. After using the rifle for awhile the heavy contour lost some of it's appeal.
So, if I could go back and do it over, I'd probably order a lighter contour and skip the flutes.
Based on what I have seen for sale in the classifieds quite a few have had regrets.
Ha ha.. Sure enough. I always liked builds like bobin had. Nice light contour barrels and balanced well. From what I see a lot of times, most builds aren't balanced right and have too heavy (too fat and too long) of barrels. That comes with experience though, as a lot of those guys think you need a big fat pig heavy barrel to shoot well. Not true, especially when we are talking hunting rifles for the most part.
Wrong caliber, that was my downfall. But it was easily remedied by setting the barrel back and rechambering, I got lucky. szihn is right on the money in my opinion. Two of my most recent builds had me staying with the original design and weight of factory rifles I really like, but improving them with a caliber they didn't offer and the other one with a twist they didn't offer. The latter one I built an English walnut stock for also, but staying with the original stock specs and adding a check piece. The weight and balance are very close to the factory's although mine may be under theirs by a few oz. Barrel length and contour match the factory's. These 2 are my idea of the perfect hunting rifle and to say I am satisfied would be an understatement.
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.
My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.
I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.
These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.
Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.
Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.
That's just one example.
Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.
There are MANY MANY other examples too.
So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.
I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
It's been that way for 200 years.
It's not likely to change tomorrow.
For fu cks sake, I don't want a gunsmith to coach me on what I need or what he thinks I need. One of the reasons I love my gunsmith. He will do what I want and it's done right and in a timely manner. "No fuss no muss".
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.
My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.
I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.
These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.
Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.
Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.
That's just one example.
Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.
There are MANY MANY other examples too.
So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.
I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
It's been that way for 200 years.
It's not likely to change tomorrow.
For fu cks sake, I don't want a gunsmith to coach me on what I need or what he thinks I need. One of the reasons I love my gunsmith. He will do what I want and it's done right and in a timely manner. "No fuss no muss".
That makes sense for a lot of us rifle loonies who have owned umpteen rifles, tried just about every combination, and are familiar with the options available and how they will all come together. However, it is hard to keep mind that even on this forum many people don't have that experience and are wanting to have a custom built. I guess that is why they are here asking questions about it? The one thing I neglected to mention in my over long dissertation is you can't expect to tell the gunsmith exactly what to build if you aren't on top of what you really want. This is more normal than not but a lot of guys take their pride into the smith's shop and don't have the sense to ask the smith his opinions on the areas where it would be helpful to fill in the blanks. If he is a good smith, he will be able to help you out in areas you are weak in, and fill in the areas where you know a bit, but not enough to get to the finishline just yet. If you find a good smith, it will be a collaborative effort. If you find one who is "not so good" it will be a struggle the whole way and ending up with your dream rifle will be serendipitous at best. If you have the money, hire the best with the reputation to match your needs, and wait until they hand you your new toy. I doubt you'll be disappointed, but it will cost you a good chunk. Just another way to get an education I guess....
I've had five true custom rifles and a few more either rebarreled or modified to some extent. The first of the five customs is beautiful and stays at home because it is both too heavy and too pretty. One is exactly what I wanted and is both light and accurate. It shows the wear. Three others are gone since they didn't make the cut in accuracy or failed to meet requested specifications. A gunsmith told me the reason he made the length of pull 13.5 inches was that it was standard even though we'd agreed on 14 and a quarter inch. A friend with shorter arms got a heck of a deal after the gunsmith refused to replace the stock and only offered to put in spacers at an additional cost.
I've thought about this topic and concluded the only reason I ever wanted a custom rifle is because I could. Customs aren't necessarily better hunting tools and you lose your shirt on resale. My fascination with wildcats is over, too. There isn't much game hunting that can't be done with a 180 grain thirty caliber bullet at 2700 feet per second. Add a scope to the rifle, either variable or fixed, with no more than 7X magnification and make it shoot 1 1/2 inch three shot groups at 100 yards and I'm good to go. If the rifle costs less than five hundred dollars before the scope and is reliable, all the better.
Ray Montgomery did my first custom rifle. I wanted a 6.5 varmint rig. I never specified a twist but in my ignorance told him I wanted to shoot lighter bullets really fast. 23 years has gone by and I still have and like that rifle. I'm a wee bit wiser now and most builds after that have been spot on. Hamilton Bowen did my first custom handgun. A thing of beauty. If my budget would have allowed it, I would of had it hard chromed then, maybe someday.
Fortunately, most of the rifles I have had built turned out about like I dreamed them too. Before building, I research my ideas quite a bit from shows (SCI DSC, etc), friends, internet, and such so I feel pretty good when laying down the next project. HOWEVER, I have had multiple issues when first receiving some of these past rifles. All were corrected and ultimately taken care of, but it sucks finding problems with a project that you just spent lots of $$$$$ and time on. Even using some of the most notable builders around, I have had a few issues. Meaning, even the biggest names in the custom rifle world have given me a few issues that were just headscratchers upfront. Again all were taken care of but things like loose action screws, feeding issues, scratches in finishes, floor plates springing open when fired, loose scope bases, and similar should be found before a builder ships the final project to you.
When the rifle is complete and before it ships, ask the builder to shoot it with a fully loaded mag, cycle the bolt, check the bedding/finishes, torque settings, and make sure it is overall ready to go.
I've only had one rifle I truly regretted. I ordered a custom barrel and what was delivered was different than what I'd discussed with the barrel maker. The email trail seemed pretty clear but they wouldn't stand behind their promise. (It was Hart in case anyone cares.) My gunsmith tried to make the best of the situation and built a good rifle but it wasn't the rifle I was imagining and I was never satisfied with it. I "accidentally" had a .220 Swift built that was too nose-heavy and wouldn't stay on the bags. Most failures I've had came down to time ... by the time the parts arrived and the 'smith could do his work, my interests had drifted onwards and the gun wasn't what I was dreaming of anymore.
So one thing to do differently is to be sure that what you're ordering is not just what you want now, but what you'll want when it arrives. Another is to find a 'smith that wants to build what you want to receive so that you're staying 'in the box" so far as his established skills.
Tom
I had the same trouble with Hart barrels, finally ended up paying a couple of hundred dollars to have them re contour the barrel to fix THEIR MISTAKE. Never again! It shot just fine, but because of the hassle never warmed up to the rifle and sold it. Somebody got a good buy!
How many have built customs and then wished they had done something different after receiving the finished product?
I had several custom firearms built when I had more range and gun shop experience than hunting experience. Every one of them was way too expensive for the advantages that it actually provided. After I spent more time hunting, and after I read a lot of Allen Day's posts, I realized that a CRF Model 70 with good glass and a good synthetic stock is all that I need. I have a 30-06 and I'd like to get a 270, 308, 300 WM, or 338 WM for a backup, but I'm done customizing firearms beyond that.
Okie John
Totally agree, done a fair amount of customs, most in gee whiz wildcats, but the thrill is gone. 90% of my hunting is done with a Stainless Steel Model 70 that I put in a McMillian Hunters Edge chambered in 270 Winchester. DONE! The other 10% is with Model 99 FWT 300 Savage and a .54 Lyman Great Plains Rifle
Still have the high dollar customs and still enjoy tinkering, but they always stay home when I'm off to hunt. Spend that money on hunting trips, you'll enjoy it more. Every once in awhile I think about building another dream rifle and then I pick up the Model 70 and say to myself "You already have it". In the long run it can't get much better.
I have a friend who had a rifle built many years ago in a wildcat caliber, cant remember which one now for the life of me, but he put it on consignment at a gun shop and it sat for over a year and nobody seemed interested in it.
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.
My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.
I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.
These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.
Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.
Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.
That's just one example.
Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.
There are MANY MANY other examples too.
So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.
I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
I had to stop taking orders about 2 years ago and I am now just working on the back-log. So this is NOT a solicitation for any more, but I would add some to the discussion for the benefit of others. If readers disagree that's 100% ok because we spend our money on what we want when we want it.
My experience had been in restoration for museums in the late 60s and that led to doing custom work shortly thereafter. I have worked on and re-created the "classics" for a very long time as well as working on about every "fad gun" that has come along in the last 50 years.
I am of the opinion that rifles come in 2 basic "flavors". #1 is the "general purpose rifle" and the other is the "specialty rifle". The GP rifle is what most arms makers made for most sales for the last 200 years. The General Purpose Rifle is one that the owner uses for everything and it';s excellent for about 85% of all the things he uses it for, and the last 15% is a job it does, but not as well as something more specialized. Examples in the last 100-120 years would be the Mausers in 7X57 and 8X57 as well as the 6.5X55 and also the 1903 Springfield the Winchester m70 and the Remington M700 in 30-06, 270 or 308.
These rifles are excellent for the use of most shooting and OK for the long range use, small varmints, target use and fur bearers, but for the dedicated Prairie Dog shooter a 222 or a 223 is better because of lighter recoil and better economy. The dedicated long range target shooter can also use the GP rifles and do well, but he'll do a bit better with a heavy, long barreled rifle set up for prone shooting.
Coming back to the the focus of the OP, the reason some rifles are often views as "mistakes" in design is that either the smith or the customer 9or both) make a mistake in what they spec out for GP use by trying to convince themselves that the specialty rifle is "better" for GP use. It is in fact not better, and when you look at the single most important factor (which is the human holding the rifle) the Specialty rifle is not AS GOOD for most jobs that fall under General Purpose, and that my friends is going to be BY FAR the largest use of the rifle. That factor alone is the #1 reason for becoming slightly or largely dissatisfied.
Today the best thing a gunsmith can do for a customer is to coach them on what the real world is like and what the rifle should be set up to do. All the rage is "sniper rifles" today and even the military has gone overboard in "specing out" what are effectively target rifles instead of very accurate hunting rifles. As a former sniper myself, I can tell you all that a 3/4 MOA hunting rifle is FAR more welcome for sniping (let say 10.5 pounds ) than what they are giving the young guys today that shoot 1/4 MOA but are long and often weigh 16 to 17 pounds. I see the new trend swinging back and that good. The USMC is looking hard at ways to make the rifles lighter and I made the prediction that would happen at a symposium in AZ about 14 years ago when I told the folks at that "think tank" that the rifles were too long and too heavy and were counter productive to the mission statement of field sniping . A lot of gun companies poo-pooed me but EVERY SINGLE Army and Marine Sniper there told me (and them ) I was correct. So now we see the civilian market places being swayed to "need' sniper rifles and not one in 20 men can use it as well as they could a lighter hunting rifle.
That's just one example.
Another one we saw for about 10 years was the "cheese grater" hand guards on AR15s. Just one more example of folks drinking the cool aid. Some of these free float tubes have mounting point all over them, up to 144 on the hand guard and I have not met anyone yet that had a use for more then about 6 of them. But 'that's what the "commandos' use is what the buyers were told and they bought them my the tens of thousands. After they use them for a year or 2 I get LOTS of them coming to me that came to the same conclusion. Too big, to abrasive and 95% of the machining done to make them was wasted. The real world of target/varmint/hunting/speed shooting all favor a slimmer and quicker handling hand-guard.
There are MANY MANY other examples too.
So dissatisfaction is actuality driven by those pushing the market to sell "do-dads", and it spills over in the custom gun world too.
I agree with the OP in that LOTS of guns are made or modified to try to get something "better" and in many (if not most) cases the owners will find it was only benefiting the companies that sell the "do-dads".
The custom GP rifle is STILL and probably always will be the gun that retains its value the best and is the most loved by hunters and shooters over the longest period of time, simply because 85 to 95% of all our shooting needs are better covered by GP rifles then they are by specialty rifles.
My biggest regret was always short magazine box and Long loaded cartridge OAL to where I had no room to chase the lands. NEVER AGAIN!!!
I found that expecting a gunsmith to work cheap or for nothing is really bad thinking.
Better success is found from a gunsmith if I provide my own reamer, barrel, stock, and action.
Give written instructions to the gunsmith in great detail.
Learned this the hard way, if you are wanting a super accurate rifle, then a #4 shilen contour is minimum and #5 Shilen contour is preferable, cut the barrel short if you want to save weight on the above.
1. AI anything. I hate fire forming. 2. Any build centered around a stock or barrel I might have had on hand. It is far best to start over. Builds should be based on bullets and application. Now I look to see what factory ammo is available too.
15 or so years ago one of my very good and particular clients had an issue with Hart. Kevin has virtually unlimited resources. He would order 5 or 6 rifles at a time and he'd have AT LEAST 10 barrels per gun fitted up in various flavors. Twist rates, throats lengths, neck OD's, etc. He had acquired quite the collection.
We had one that just refused to play nice. Swap the barrel and it'd settle down just fine. Put the old one back on and it would go to hell again. So, he mails it to Hart and asks them (asks, because Kevin is the kind of client a builder dreams for, always courteous, always a pro, and never once balks at a cost so long as he gets what he wants)
Well, Hart tells him to basically suck it. They were rude. [bleep] even.
Apparently, they don't pay attention to Purchase Orders. If they had, they'd of realized this guy had over 300 barrels from them. I am NOT making this up. Kevin is just "one of those guys" and he had the means to do whatever he wants.
And that is exactly what he did.
He took every one of those barrels and hauled them down to a machine shop somewhere in IL where he lives. He paid them the going rate and they cut those barrels into 1" segments on a band saw. He then crated the whole mess up and had it shipped to Hart barrels with a very plainly worded letter encouraging all of them to have intercourse with themselves.
Then he replaced a whole lot with a new company and we did it all over again.
No [bleep]. True story.
Hart barrels. They've never made a mistake. Just ask them, they'll tell you.
15 or so years ago one of my very good and particular clients had an issue with Hart. Kevin had virtually unlimited resources. He would order 5 or 6 rifles at a time and he'd have AT LEAST 10 barrels per gun fitted up in various flavors. Twist rates, throats lengths, neck OD's, etc. He had acquired quite the collection.
We had one that just refused to play nice. Swap the barrel and it'd settle down just fine. Put the old one back on and it would go to hell again. So, he mails it to Hart and asks them (asks, because Kevin is the kind of client a builder dreams for, always courteous, always a pro, and never once balks at a cost so long as he gets what he wants)
Well, Hart tells him to basically suck it. They were rude. [bleep] even.
Apparently, they don't pay attention to Purchase Orders. If they had, they'd of realized this guy had over 300 barrels from them. I am NOT making this up. Kevin is just "one of those guys" and he had the means to do whatever he wants.
And that is exactly what he did.
He took every one of those barrels and hauled them down to a machine shop somewhere in IL where he lives. He paid them the going rate and they cut those barrels into 1" segments on a band saw. He then crated the whole mess up and had it shipped to Hart barrels with a very plainly worded letter encouraging all of them to have intercourse with themselves.
Then he replaced a whole lot with a new company and we did it all over again.
No [bleep]. True story.
Hart barrels. They've never made a mistake. Just ask them, they'll tell you.
Caveat Emptor
Funny story, the only barrel on a custom I can't seem to get to shoot is a Hart.... hmmmm....
I have two Hart barrels, both shoot extremely well. The 7mm barrel was delivered slightly heavier in contour than what was spec'd. Hart offered to re-contour the barrel to specification at no cost to myself. I ended up keeping the slightly heavier contour based on my 'Smith's reccomendation and I'm well satisfied with the rifle. Neither barrel fouls notably and both shoot multiple weight bullets of various construction to nearly identical POI's.
Biggest damned mistake I've made is trusting gunsmiths to do what I ask and do it right. I've been burned more often than I've had the work done properly, and I give VERY specific instructions. I had a local guy who did just what you asked and did it well. Unfortunately he went out of business due to ITAR. I will never EVER use another gunsmith unless he is highly and widely endorsed by longstanding members on here and/or longrangehunting. I would trust C Dixon who posted on this thread, as well as Redneck. I have used and trust Kevin Cram of Montour County Rifles. I have a full custom built by Cloud Peak Gunworks in Basin, WY that I bought second hand and it is a laser.
Stock ergos for me. I built a 6.5 creed and just couldn’t fall in the love with the stock. Changing that stock also affected the shank of the barrel so it had to be longer in order to look perfect in the stock(I hope this makes sense). I changed from a mountaineer stock to the hunters edge. The mountaineer was made for the barrel contour and the shank I had in mind......I just didn’t like that stock once I felt it. Since then I’ve gotten to really enjoy the rifle and boy does it shoot!
I learned a lot. My last build is about as perfect as I could have wanted. My only regret is using a 709 action. I wish I’d of went Stiller or some other clone. But this little 7-08 is likely my favorite rifle for now. I used an EH8 and a Hart #3 fluted Barrel Finished at 20”. It’s a hammer and a joy to hunt with.
The biggest issues I've seen were weight, balance and stock fit.
A pal of mine that had drawn an elk tag and wanted a semi light .30. I did a really nice short Rem.700 with a 22" #2 barrel in 300WSM in the McMillan Sako Hunter. When it was done, I did the load work up.... it delivered honest 3/8"-1/2" three shot groups at 100 with an assortment of good hunting bullets using a scope that is dedicated for load work. I had given him some recommendations on scopes that would complete the package. Excitedly, he told me he was bringing the scope over for me to mount and sight in.
Like a proud new Dad, he reaches in a big box and produces a Nightforce NSX 5.5-22X50.
Should have listened to my gun smith when he said the barrel was a cork screw and had a tromboned bore. He made it good but took more load development than it should have.
Lilja would not respond, Midway would trade me a new barrel but I would be out shipping and the chamber job costs. So I just went with it as a beater gun and am doing my best to shoot out the barrel.
15 or so years ago one of my very good and particular clients had an issue with Hart. Kevin has virtually unlimited resources. He would order 5 or 6 rifles at a time and he'd have AT LEAST 10 barrels per gun fitted up in various flavors. Twist rates, throats lengths, neck OD's, etc. He had acquired quite the collection.
We had one that just refused to play nice. Swap the barrel and it'd settle down just fine. Put the old one back on and it would go to hell again. So, he mails it to Hart and asks them (asks, because Kevin is the kind of client a builder dreams for, always courteous, always a pro, and never once balks at a cost so long as he gets what he wants)
Well, Hart tells him to basically suck it. They were rude. [bleep] even.
Apparently, they don't pay attention to Purchase Orders. If they had, they'd of realized this guy had over 300 barrels from them. I am NOT making this up. Kevin is just "one of those guys" and he had the means to do whatever he wants.
And that is exactly what he did.
He took every one of those barrels and hauled them down to a machine shop somewhere in IL where he lives. He paid them the going rate and they cut those barrels into 1" segments on a band saw. He then crated the whole mess up and had it shipped to Hart barrels with a very plainly worded letter encouraging all of them to have intercourse with themselves.
Then he replaced a whole lot with a new company and we did it all over again.
No [bleep]. True story.
Hart barrels. They've never made a mistake. Just ask them, they'll tell you.
Caveat Emptor
I love it. Not "Phug you" money, that's "Phug me" money.
I have a sporterized M1917 with the original barrel from the 50s that weighs nearly as much as a non-sporterized '03. Even with the barrel cut down and turned to a sporter contour, it is still heavy. It's built like a tank, but I'm not anymore. I guess they were judged by their weight back then.
one of the things i have learned over the years is you dont need a smith that advertises and goes to all the trade shows in order to get a first rate job.....for years i couldnt understand the pricing difference thinking i was loosing something by not paying more....most of the smiths i use today arent nationally known and do as good or better than the well known guys
Agreed Gene270. I learned about Roy from a member here on the 'fire and went to see him and his work. To say the least I wanted him to make a rifle for me.
My only regret is not sending a dummy cartridge with the intended bullet at a OAL that just barely fits the mag well. The throat could be more forgiving.
Regret is not being true with yourself about how you'll use your new custom. Don't buy a heavy contoured pig and expect to lug around mountains. In the same vein, don't take a pencil thin contour to the range and expect to be produced tight shot groups over long shot strings in 90 degrees.
My only regret is not sending a dummy cartridge with the intended bullet at a OAL that just barely fits the mag well. The throat could be more forgiving.
Why not one a bit shorter than the mag well? Then you'd have room to grow as the throat erodes.
Why not one a bit shorter than the mag well? Then you'd have room to grow as the throat erodes.
This or if in doubt throated to the shortest bullet that will be used. Worst case it could be lengthened later if needed but max mag length you have no room to grow.
My only regret is not sending a dummy cartridge with the intended bullet at a OAL that just barely fits the mag well. The throat could be more forgiving.
Why not one a bit shorter than the mag well? Then you'd have room to grow as the throat erodes.
Mathman you pose a good point. I’m likely in a good spot for the long haul.
Sometimes when you do send a dummy cartridge, it isn't used anyway because the smith knows what you want better than you do. [/quote]
I have been known to put magic marker on the dummy's and then look for land marks on the bullets when I meet with the gunsmith. Don't have to say anything but the Smith will know what your looking at.
My only regrets have been listening to yahoos on hunting forums, whose only experience building rifles amounts to theory based upon Google searches.
Oh and 26" barrels for magnums.
It's really funny when your gun builder makes "suggestions" that actually work! After all, WTF does he know.......
e.g. Back in '04 I called up Charley Sisk and ordered a 300 Win. I wanted a 26" Krieger CM barrel because I knew better. Charley politely said he'd go ahead and order the Krieger, but he's had pretty good luck with (gasp) 24" button rifled stainless Lilja barrels. That rifle has shot one holers for over 14 years from stag in NZ, to elk in BC/Colorado and lion in Zim. Gonna take it to Tajikistan for MP next year. Talk about a work horse......
When I had Patrick Holehan build my 340 Wby he suggested a 24" as he's had better luck/better harmonics than with a 26". I sold my Weaver 340 Wby (26") as I couldn't get it to group as i'd like........
I've had rifles which were too heavy, too light, balanced too far forward, balanced too far back. I've had rifles with stocks with combs too high or too low, too much drop or not enough. Grips too open or too close. The sad thing is; I made every one of the damn things myself and couldn't even blame someone else. GD
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