This project first appeared on my drawing board almost 4 years ago. The original idea was to build a unique big bore hunting rifle. The design coalesced around components I have read about in the writings of some favorite authors: Keith, O’Conner, Seyfried, Capstick, Taylor, Bowen, Zeglin, and Smith all have had some influence on my planning for this rifle.

It was to be an American rifle. And it is. It is also a global, since the design concepts borrow from many countries. For example, I ultimately decided on a 98 Mauser action. The barrel has an ovate profile. A scope is a practical necessity, but somewhere I saw a Rigby style cocking piece sight. It is very classy and it too became part of the design. This complicated the design by requiring a detachable scope mount and a custom stock dimensions. The stock is black walnut because it is uniquely American. Damascus skeleton grip cap and butt plates are added because I like the look.

This rifle is no wall hanger. I plan to shoot it, a lot. Since it a big bore, the rifle must shoot cast bullets, well. This is partially about cost, but not entirely. Veral Smith taught me cast can be just as accurate, deadly, and shot at full power. This is especially true for this caliber.

I only pondered over the cartridge only a little. Originally this rifle was to be a .411 Hawk. In the course of researching the Hawk, I came across the Petrov articles on the Whelen. Petrov’s work and some snags collecting info on the Hawk caused me to conclude no game animal would be able to tell the difference in the Hawk or the Whelen. Also, the Whelen is more of a classic, so a 400 Whelen it is.

I was determined to use the best materials and craftsmen I could find. It was a challenge to figure just who and what that is and believe those decisions proved out. As I write this into, the rifle is still a work-in-progress. The barreled action has been delivered. I have shot it to perfect the pattern for the stock, to fire form brass, and for sight adjustment. I am working on the final stock now.

Perhaps the best way to proceed is to write sub-treads discussing each aspect of the build; action, barrel, stock, sights, ammo/reloading, etc., provided I can figure out how to do so on this site. I have lots of pictures.

One pet peeve I feel obliged to share. I often wonder what some extravagant undertaking costs, as a read about them. While I do not consider this project cheap, I am a frugal, if not cautious guy. I have paid for each item as the pieces-parts were delivered and will share those costs, for the similarly curious.

Onward to the action…

I am looking forward too this, thanks for posting...

Count me in as interested also!

Me too!

NICE! CFE-223 powder will easily power 400gr Woodleigh softs and solids to 2255 fps should you ever want it, my rifle was cut with a Petrov reamer too, Quality Cartridge cylindrical brass makes the rest easy, Enjoy, I love mine.

Before I go further, can anybody tell me how to create sub-posts under the master? As I said in the intro, I want to make numerous subs for action, barrel, stock, etc, but under the main post so there is a useful flow. Thanks.

I have a .400 Whelen on a 1903A3 Springfield. I think the .400 Whelen is really the wildest of the wildcats. Until Petrov took it on, the dimensions were all over the place. Mine isn't the same as his. The most important thing is the shoulder measurement. When one starts to blow the 06 case out; a .458 shoulder doesn't leave much, but it is without doubt enough to headspace on.

My barrel is 25", .400 bore, .410 (eight grooved) with a 1-18 twist. I shoot 400 grain cast, gas checked bullets. I'm getting about 2000 fps and it will rattle your teeth lose.

It took me eight years to get mine together. Like you, I paid for it as I went. It was worth the wait

Sounds cool, hope you post pictures of boxes as they arrive too.

Just revisit this thread and add a post.

DF

I use Imgur as a photo host.

Easy to set up an account and post photos from there.

DF

Don't know about sub threads but once we "Tag" ourselves in here by posting it will be easy to find your post in our history so a continuous thread isn't a bad thing!

Thanks for sharing with us,


Mike

I built mine several years ago when Mike Petrov was still with us. He lived in Anchorage so we got to visit a few times and discuss all things Whelen. His research led me to choose the 400 Whelen over the 411 Hawk or 400 Brown Whelen.

So far my wife and I have taken three head of game with mine. Two caribou and a cow moose. We've used the 400 grain Woodleigh RN, 300 grain Barnes TSX and the 400 grain Hawk RN. All have worked well. If I were to choose one bullet for the 400 Whelen, it would be the 400 grain Woodleigh RN.

I've played some with some cast bullets. I have a mold from Accurate Molds that drops one 320 grain and one 400 grain flat point. They both shoot very well but the 320 grain is short enough that it doesn't feed well in my model 70. I had similar feeding issues with some short 300 grain bullets I tried. The 300 grain Barnes is plenty long and feeds without a hitch.

I have never experienced any headspace issues with mine in over 1500 rounds of load development and practice. You'll run into a few arm chair/keyboard experts who will try to convince you there will be issues with proper headspace. I've run into several. Of course none of them have owned or fired a 400 Whelen.

The 400 Whelen has become my favorite big game round and would be the last rifle I'd ever part with. You will love it.

H4895 is your friend in the 400. Works great with all bullet weights. CH4D has dies for about a fourth of the cost of RCBS. I've been well pleased with mine.

Please, and some of us are ready. Rusty

Wow, looking forward to seeing the progress of this one!

+1

DF

This is the round I wanted to do on mine, but everyone I talked to said it wouldn't headspace off the shoulder properly so I went 375 Whelen AI. I shoot 235gr Speer Hot-Cores as hard as they can go. It's hell on game and does what I wanted. I still think the 400 with cast bullets would have been cooler though.

On the plus size brass is easier to size and there are plenty of big game bullets (jacketed and cast) for 375....so it wasn't all bad.

From the sounds of it though. Your's will have a level of class mine will never know.

This is a long running myth. It may have started when chambers were cut without setting the barrel back just reaming out the old military chamber which were usually generous to begin with. The AI would solve this but not very worthwhile otherwise as the increased capacity is not that significant in the Whelen. Might gain 50-100 fps everything else being equal.

Where can I find a tutorial on how to load my pix? I checked the help. What I saw was not, ahem, helpful. Dirtfarmer, respectfully, I have no idea what this means, "I use Imgur as a photo host. "
I also wrote to Rickbin (administrator), but have not heard from him.
I am pretty familiar with software, but do not know what tools exist here.

What I want to do is post my pix, then insert them at the appropriate place in each posting.


My next posting awaits the tutorial....

PM sent.

DF

You talked to the wrong people. I'd be curious how many of them actually ever owned a 400 Whelen.

The 400 Whelen was never just a 41-06. It has always been an improved design from its inception in 1923. A 30-06 has a shoulder diameter of .441 and the 400 Whelen has a shoulder of .458. Any chambers cut for a 30-06 simply opened to receive a .411 bullet are a misinterpretation of Whelen's design of the 400 Whelen.

I played with a 10.75x57 for a few years. Its minimal shoulder makes the 400 Whelen shoulder look gargantuan. I never had any issue with it not headspacing correctly either. Never had a misfire in several hundred rounds.

Here is the next installment. Thanks to the people who helped with the pictures.


A new 400 Whelen is Born_action

It all started with a cruise on Gunbroker. There was this 98 Mauser advertised as a 9.3x57 for sale, somewhere in Alaska. It suffered abuse and was pitted inside and out. It was also absolutely gorgeous. It had this beautiful full length rib with an integral front sight. Somebody referred to it as a “Shiller rib.” The rifle just called to me. I placed a bid hoping my refurbishment skills were adequate to the task. Was I clairvoyant.

When it arrived, the stock was broken at the wrist, badly. (That turned out to be a good thing.) I draw filed/polished the barreled action, fire lapped the barrel, and made a new stock for it out of a piece of Claro. By luck of the draw, the barrel slugged .358 exactly, so the 9.3 was actually a 9x57 which shot .358 bullets perfectly. At 6#, it also kicked like Eeyore’s grandfathers-father. But my heavens it fit me and it was beautiful. Hooked. Picture after rust blue, new stock, B4 checkering
at link.

https://imgur.com/GeHBbTI

So what has this to do with the 400?

The above convinced me the .400 needed to be built on a 98 Mauser action and also needed a very cool rib. The M98 is arguably the finest hunting rifle action ever made. I wanted a modern one, with updated metallurgy, not a worn out, converted, military action. Economics is a factor in my world. Converting a mil-spec M98 for custom might cost over $2000, all in, and it would still be what it is. A modern M98 might retail for more, but I should get more. Right? Research directed me to three action makers: Prechtl, Granite Mountain, and Satterlee.

After researching all three manufacturers, I chose the Satterlee action. It is American made. It is machined out of blocks of 4140 steel. The thing that tipped the scale for me, though, was on the Satterlee website. The actions are built in standard sizes, but each is finished cartridge-specific. The phrase on the website said each action will “feed right side up, upside down, [in the dirt], no matter what, each and every time.” That did it! I have had rifles with feeding problems. Not fun; sometimes worse. Heck, if I was going to spend the money, eliminating the feeding-fiddle seemed a good investment, especially considering what a big bore is used for.

Talking to Stuart Satterlee really iced the decision. I won’t repeat his bio here. You can read it and about his actions on his website. Suffice to say the Satterlee actions are M98 square bridged M98 actions which are machined for a variety of scope mounts and set up to feed any cartridge which makes sense in this action. Finally, they are delivered feeding perfectly into a plug-barrel. “Feeding” is an extra cost elsewhere.

When I described the cocking piece iron sight and the barrel design, he was very much on board. Lo and behold, Stuart just happened to have one of those sights and asked, “Did I want it?” Hello! When, I asked him about the cartridge feeding comment, Stuart said he makes them feed to “suit himself.” It might take him a week of try it, stone it, try it again, polish it some more, …until it feeds every round out of the magazine. The action feeds smoothly, too.

We discussed the cartridge. He had never build a 400 Whelen but was intrigued about getting 404 Jeffrey ballistics out of a .30/06 case. (See ammo thread) Even better, the Satterlee standard action holds 5+1 .400 Whelen rounds, without any magazine extension. The Jeffrey can not. The standard trigger is the pre-64 M70 pattern. Mine breaks at 2#, without and creep or over travel. Perfect.

As for delivery time, I had a good experience. Satterlee is constantly whittling receivers in all sizes. This is the most time consuming part of the process. He told me he usually has completed receivers & bolts ready to be paired to bottom metal made for your cartridge. In the end it comes down to planning. My entire action, except for feeding, was ready before the barrel was delivered. In the end, it also made sense to have Satterlee chamber the barrel blank and test fire it before the barrels was sent to be profiled.

At the time I placed the order, a completed action, polished & feeding cartridges cost $3400. While this price might seem high, it is less than that new transmission. I can assure you this price is less than competition for equivalent work. This action is tight, right, and does exactly what Satterlee told me, every time, perfectly. The decision to purchase this action was the best value/least cost approach for me.

https://satterleearmsrifles.com/

Next installment before I am forced to go collect venison.

A new 400 Whelen is Born_Barrel

In the action-post I described how an old 9x57 Mauser led to this rifle build. Here I will describe how the barrel design evolved.

Since I am an innocent in all of this, we must point our finger to Seyfreid, Bowen, and the Double Gun Journal, as key influencers. These sources are guilty of trotting out some of the most gorgeous firearms features known to man, to the unsuspecting public. I plead guilty for enjoying their work and buying into classic firearms design.

Reading this stuff is how I became introduced to the ovate barrel profile. I believe ovate may have originated on single shot British sporting rifles. Wherever it was born, it is classy, and I thought such a barrel would look good on this rifle.

I drew the initial design on graph paper. It was a modified ovate profile. Mine included concave sides, full length barrel rib, and an integral front sight and swivel.

Barrel making is not my expertise, but I do know a quality barrel is central to good accuracy. I called Kreiger to discuss the project. In the end, I purchased a .403/.411 oversized blank measuring 1.5”x27.” There was a 6 month waiting period, but it took 14 month because of a clerical glitch on my part. In the end, it did not matter. The barrel arrived in the nick of time. The blank was about $600 including shipping.

The challenge was, who could I get to build the profile I had designed? https://imgur.com/jnfxY3l Satterlee put me onto 3 different people. In the end, Morris Melani of Alaska Arms accepted the job. He had been making Ovates for another customer and was familiar with the challenges.

https://alaskaarmsllc.com/

Meanwhile the barrel went to Satterlee. He had the action done and needed the barrel to complete the feeding. Also, by divine coincidence, Morris Melani just happened to know the guy who bought Michael Petrov’s 400 Whelen, had Petrov’s chamber reamer, and he graciously loaned it to me so Satterlee could chamber my rifle with it. Thanks Dennis!

Satterlee completed the chambering, finished the feeding, test fired the rifle, sent it to Morris and the fire formed cased to me. Stuart said the round was easy to get to feed because it is just a “bigger .30/06.”

Morris profiled the 1.5 blank on his CNC equipment. Twice he called me to ask if I really wanted an integral swivel because it was a pain in his programming. The integral swivels stayed. Fortunately he recommended other changes. The concave profile was switched to the standard ovate (egg with flat top). The most important and subtle change was Morris added about 1/16 of swamping in the barrel. This added a touch of class which is more felt than seen. It also made the barrel lighter and improved the balance.

The profiled barrel is no lightweight. It is looks like a #6 contour, but the ovate makes it balance differently. (Maybe the Brits knew a lot what they were doing.) From shooting it, I have learned the ovate behaves as though it were a heavy, full-bull barrel. It must be very rigid. It shoots different weight to the same point of impact at 50 yards and into little tiny clover leafs. Given this is a 4000 ft lbs, rifle that says a lot about the barrel quality and execution.
Alaska Arms also makes neat detachable scope rings which fit into the cuts in the Satterlee action. I ordered sets of 1” and 30mm so I am ready for any scope I might mount. I have taken the rings on/off numerous times to test loads with the scope and cocking piece sight. The rings return to zero perfectly every time. No BS.

https://imgur.com/Kgbuiqi
https://imgur.com/GLznxP1

The rings were $135 per set. The barrel profile was $3500. The tightwad in me said, “ouch,” but the tightwad was wrong. The machining challenges to nibble an ovate, rib, ramp, and yes, swivel out of a 1.5” blank is no small undertaking. Morris did it perfectly the first time. He also added his expertise, delivered the finished barrel, polished it 400-grit, and delivered in time. Stepping back, this barrel sets off the rifle, balances perfectly, and shoots into one hole at 50 yards. I definitely got lots of value.

Thanks Stu and Morris.

I have two that are being ceracoated. After reading on Mart's post I decided I NEEDED one and my hunting partner agreed, he NEEDED one as well. Started the same time as Gunner started his and reached out to him for advice. Our pair are built on Dumolin mauser actions. Douglas XX barrels at 22", NECG master piece rear and banded front sight, with matching barrel band sling stud. Kinda went non traditional on the stock. Went with McMillian Mauser stocks in 50/50 orange and black, no front stud. Barreled actions are being Cereakoted graphite black, with sniper grey bolts.

All that said, before sending them out for Cerakoting, I put several rounds through each. With a plain 400 grain Hornady, stoked with a bunch of Rel15, it will splinter a 6" pine tree at 25yrds.

I can't wait to get them back and do load development

Good luck WheelerDan! It's a awesome cartraige.


Keenan

Gone hunting. Will continue next week.

Cant wait to read the report on completion of you guys' rifles muzzleblast, mines a stone cold killer with the 400gr Woodleighs, already took it to Africa and slayed kudu, gemsbok, impala, duiker, steenbok, as well as a few whitetail deer and one pig here at home.

A friend of mine built a 400 Whelen several years ago, a 22" Pac Nor 1-16 8 groove .411 on a 700 L/A. We have shot cast 375 grainers, 300 TSX's, 400 Woodleighs, A-Square softs and solids, even some 400 Barnes bronze solids, 180 Barnes XPB's and the ubiquitous Hornady 300 gr. FN and spitzers.
The 300's clock at 2,485, the 400's go 2,250 with RL-15. I've never found the need to use any other fuel.

All bullets shot well, but for our uses (and overall economy), the 300 Barnes X and TSX bullets do the work of the heavier bullets with velocity and trajectory that make the cartridge more than just a big hammer.
Another thing that has not been brought up: the 400 really doesn't exhibit the recoil that it "should" have, at least not with a decent fitting stock.


I'd rather spend the day with the 400/300's or 400's over lots of 338's/250's, 300 Wins./200's and most certainly the 300 Wby. with 200's.

All I've shot so far is about a half dozen hogs, but it has never failed to anchor any of them VERY quickly.

Congrats on your rifle. Its a great cartridge that really isn't that complicated to load for, if at all.

Hawk your right about the recoil. It's a real sweetheart. Mine weighs around 7#'s sans scope. Its going to be one heck of a timber rifle for elk, stoked with 300 gr TSX'S.


Keenan

Interesting project. I have a "thing" for '06 based cartridges. A .400 whelen might look nice in the safe next to my 6mm-06, 6.5x280 ai, .35 Whelen, and ofcourse the .25, .27, and .30-06s. I have a nice FN action in my gun room as we speak and a line on a Husky .30-06 barreled action. Makes me think hard about doing one of these .400s albeit a more economy version...

Back from deer hunt......

As promised.

A new 400 Whelen is Born_Sights

I like iron sights. The aforementioned 9x57 rifle with it’s very cool Shiller-style rib and integral sight definitely influenced the design of the 400.

The reality is standard iron sights can be difficult to use in poor light conditions and with old eyes. Aperture sights are generally better in both respects than standard irons. The Rigby style cocking piece sight is better because the aperture is very close to the eye. When Satterlee offered to sell me his, I snapped it up. But, I shoot best with a scope. Most people do.
https://imgur.com/qlqYrAA
https://imgur.com/rVVQXvb

The scope needed to look right, have plenty of eye relief, and have excellent optics to manage shooting conditions in which the 400 might be used. I selected the Leupold 3x fixed scope called the Big Bore. It has enough power for good shooting and more than 4” of eye relief.

The dual sighting system created a challenge because the optimal sight plains are about ¾” different between the Rigby and the Leupold. https://imgur.com/29pMAIe

I was lucky enough to work with Stuart Satterlee in his shop for most of 2 days. It was great fun. Besides the normal gun-crank talk, we worked out the transition between the barrel rib and the receiver bridge. We also came upon a working theory on how to address the sight plain issue.

As we worked on the rig/bridge transition, Stuart whittled nearly .100 off the top of the receiver bridges. https://imgur.com/eW3Q9Zs

That still left about 5/8 difference to be resolved between the Rigby sight and the scope. This was a major conundrum seeking an answer which we simply did not have.

We finally decided that Stuart would machine a stock out of firewood-grade wood around a modified British stalking rifle pattern he had in his shop. He modified the original pattern by removing the wood for the drop box magazine. The 400 does not have one. The rest was up to me.

I took the pattern-stock home. My job was to adjust the pattern dimensions to fit me and to also accommodate the dual sighting systems. The solution evolved in a try it-fix, it, shoot it, repeat, pattern over a few weeks. Once done, I sent the stock to Satterlee and he ran the good-wood on his duplicating machine and sent it to me. He got the new stock pattern for his pattern-library. The eventual design works very well with the cocking piece sight and the Big Bore scope. (See stock design)

One final touch set off the iron sights. Satterlee milled a longitudinal dovetail into the front sight ramp which accepts the interchangeable inserts sold my New England Custom Guns. (NECG). The inserts are held in by a grub screw. At the time the picture was taken some final fitting was due. https://imgur.com/AM0b0VE

The rifle came delivered with two separate cocking pieces; a plain one, and a second dovetailed for the cocking piece sight. All one must do to switch systems is to remove the scope and to swap the cocking pieces. This is a 45 second job, tops. Satterlee gets full marks for delivering a dual sight system which is 1 hole accurate in either mode. Moreover, the behavior is repeatable after each sight change.

Best of all, this solution was one of the most cost effective components. The Rigby sight-system cost $600, including the sight, front inserts, cocking piece, and labor. The scope retails for about $400 + the cost of the rings. The bases are integral to the receiver.

Wheeler dan,if you click on your picture and go to Linked BBCode (message boards & forums) click on the code below,then go to the top where it says EDIT and click on EDIT scroll down to where it says COPY click in COPY then come here and go to where you want to post the pic go click on EDIT again and scroll down to PASTE and click on PASTE then go to PREVIEW REPLY on the bottom of this page and preview the pi.

Thanks for this explanation. I have no idea what it is telling me to do. I have no pix posted in my post, only links.

Any of you gents shoot 41 mag pistol bullets in your 400 Whelens?

I never have,I've shot pistol bullets in my 358 & 458 and found it took all the fun out of big bore plinking. 300 gr Hornady's @ 1850fps is sort of 22ish as it is!

In all the loads I've tested in mine I've not run any pistol bullets through it. I have shot some 300 and 400 grain cast and have a mold for 265 grain LBT wide long nose gas check that I use in my 41 magnum though I've not tried them in the 400. The issue I run into with mine is that it doesn't like short bullets and doesn't feed them well. Even the short 300 grain bullets from Hornady and the 300 grain cast don't feed well. If I keep the COAL out around 3.330 or longer they feed great, regardless of profile. I have not had a smith work on it because to be honest, feed work is best left to those who truly know what they are doing and I do not know anyone in Alaska who can do it. I'm sure there are some smiths here capable of fine tuning the feeding but I do not know who they are. It also hasn't been that big a concern to me. I really don't see the short bullets as viable hunting bullets and I'm not much of a plinker with my hunting rifles. The 300 grain Barnes TSX, Hawk 350 and 400 RN, Swift 350 A Frame, North Fork 300 and 360, the Woodleigh 400 RN and my 400 grain cast all feed perfectly. I can shoot the cast somewhat reduced if I want an inexpensive practice bullet.

I do have a box of the Sierra 170 HPs. I'll bet they'd make a coyote turn inside out fired from my Whelen. Might have to single load them though. That's a really short bullet.

Barnes 180's.

Scooted out at close to 2,900 and shot into soaked newsprint, it resembled a silver dollar. IIRC, they shot okay. Still have one loaded.

Only loaded about 6 or so; POI difference was not close to regular loads, so I run 375 gr. cast loads instead.

Yes, I did all of my fire forming with 41 caliber Hornady 210 grain XTP. The load was 55 grains of 4198. This is good for about 2850 FPS. If you think about this that is a very stout load with a bullet that heavy. The reason for this load was anything less did not fully form the shoulder. BTW, I also just happened to have a .412 round ball mold. With a few grains of bullseye or 700X powder these can be shot at <600 FPS with deadly 25 yard accuracy. No kidding.

Anyway, when I get around to writing the piece on reloading, I will include much more. Marts comments about feeding apply, especially with the round ball load. more later

My FFL's used the 300 Hornady FP and spitzers, Midway blems.

I can't glow enough over the big 400. It duplicates the 375 HH ballistics with 300 grainers, at the same time (as posted a couple times above), it flings 180's at speeds the 7mm Weatherby is attuned to, from the '06 (35 Whelen) hull.

I do wish the old 350 Barnes "X" would have been given the nod over the 300 for it's TSX upgrade, but given the amount of 405's Ruger has put out, I understand.


It's my summation the 300 TSX will do anything a Woodleigh or Hawk 400 grainer would be tasked to do; at the very least it owns velocity and precision.

Dan, this is a fantastic thread on your new rifle project. WoW! I have never experienced any project so keen on so many unique details.

the picture posting process (beyond your posting the links), starts with copying the "image location" then just adds the phrase "img" in brackets at the beginning of the link, and "/img" in brackets at the end, and vous ala! visible link!

Morris Melani lives near by and can do it.

A magnificent project. Where would I find the Petrov design reamers and gauges necessary for a similar project? Michael and I spoke by computer before his illness was discovered. I consider it a personal loss as well as a general one for the loonies. Rusty

I'm not sure who ended up with Michael's reamer. You might post the question over on the Double Gun forum. He was very active over there. The gentleman who barreled mine has one but he doesn't take in much work, if any. I know there must be several out there and you might check with one of the reamer rental outfits. I'd be shocked if they didn't have one.

I sure miss Mike. I really enjoyed going to see him in Anchorage. I wish I had met him when we first moved to Alaska and had more time with him. That applies to all who knew him I'm sure. He was certainly generous with his time and knowledge. I have a picture on myself that he took in his gun room holding a rifle of his. It was one I recognized from the Monty Kennedy book, "Checkering and Carving of Gunstocks." It was the Alvin Linden rifle on page 13. I treasure the picture. I wish I had gotten one of him.

PM me. The guy who has his rifle and reamer loaned it to me. I will ask Dennis if it is OK to put you in contact.

Here is the discourse on the pattern stock (basic dimensions and concept)

A new 400 Whelen is Born_The pattern- stock

As described in the post on sights, stock design was complicated by the dual sight system. While standard dimensions exist for most stock profiles, such was not the case here. The beginning pattern stock was from Satterlee’s English stalking rifle. I began hacking from there. I am 5’ 10” about 190#, of average build.

https://imgur.com/Atf7Fz1

Below is the description of the dimensional changes made to the pattern to make it fit me and my needs.

Length of pull – 13-1/4” measured from the center of the trigger to the middle of the butt plate. This seems too short, but it isn’t. This length allows the bolt to cycle with the cocking piece in place and perfectly aligns with the scope. It is bang-on ideal for the iron sights and very good for the scope.

Drop – I raised the heel nearly ½” with automobile bondo to .845”. Drop at comb is unchanged @ .725”. I measured drop by wrapping masking tape around a brass rod, put it in the bore from the breech end. The heel is also thickened at the top to accommodate the extra area of the skeleton butt plate I intend to install. (See Stock)

Cast- There is no cast at the comb or heel. However, the toe is “out” 5/16” from the bottom of the pistol grip.

Pitch – This is a critical and often misunderstood dimension. Pitch is the angle between the bore and the flat of the butt plate. (On shotguns the top of the rib is used.). 90 degrees is neutral pitch.

It took a lot of trial and error to get this right. I burned 40 shots, testing the recoil effect of pitch. The goal was to direct recoil straight back, with as little muzzle deflection as possible. This rifle has some power. The recoil sensation is a strong push, a lot like a 3” 12 gas shotgun or a 375 H&H rifle. It does not kick “fast” like a 300 or 338 mag.

As delivered, the flat of the butt was 91degrees to the bore axis. Recoil sensation was strong against the cheek with quite a bit of muzzle rise. When I added bondo to the heel for the iron sights, the stock began rising more and really beat up my cheek. I queried a couple of experts for help.

Melvin Forbes, Joel Shafer, and David Wesbrook recommended negative pitch on heavy rifles. Test shooting showed -3.5 degrees pitch to be ideal. The measured angle between the bore and the butt plate is now 86.5 degrees. I tested as far as 85 degrees (5 degrees negative pitch). At 85 the muzzle wanted to recoil down into the palm of the hand. -3.5 degrees directs recoil straight back. Correcting the pitch is also why the 13-1/4” LOP works as well as it does.

Deflection- The butt has about 2 degrees of deflection. The cheek piece side of the butt is a hair shorter than the bolt side to fit my shoulder pocket and deltoid muscle.

Tang – I decided to reshape the tang of the action because putting the slot in the wood behind the tag just bugs me. (Thank you David Wesbrook.) This little change lowers the pistol grip ¼”, and completely reshapes the arch from the rear of the of action into the pistol grip in a nice elegant curve.

Comb – The comb was moved back at least ¾”+. I did not plan on using a comb notch. I just don’t like the look. But I have big hands, with a fat thumb, so I had to do something. I relieved the right side to accept the fat of my right thumb. I didn’t realize it at the time, but the fat-thumb-flute came in exactly at 11 degrees to the bore, just like a 1911 pistol. Huh. The shorter comb helps my thumb roll over the top. There is also slight swell in right side of the pistol grip.

There are 6 concave flutes; 4 at the left/right/top/bottom of the pistol grip and 2 at the fore end.

Fore end - I lengthened the fore end by about 2” to make it look more natural with the placement of the barrel swivel. The fore end transitions from the flutes into an oval, rounding into a rather streamlined forward end, like an English sporting rifle. I don’t care for contrasting fore end caps, so the extra piece is for length only.

The bolt cut out with bondo. It and the ejection port will be cut last in the good stock before final finishing. This little secret avoids chipping and rounding of edges around these areas.

The biggest take away from designing the pattern stock what I learned about pitch. Adjusting the pitch 4 degrees dramatically changed the handling of the rifle. Below is a picture of the finished pattern stock.

https://imgur.com/r8Ekpdw

I will describe the final shaping and fitting of the good-stock in the next section.

So is the negative pitch with the bottom of the butt plate towards the muzzle or away from it? Just trying to visualize what the change accomplishes.

The problem is the nomenclature used to describe pitch , isn't it? I have read about pitch from other sources. The terms I read about were up/down, more/less, higher/lower, etc. Most of them seemed to depict the sight plain of a shotgun. Whatever, they depicted, I found them confusing because none of them told me about the relationship to the bore or sighting plain to the butt. Also, the results were dependent on the length of the barrels. Joel Shafer helped me figure out this method, which seems clearer in my mind.

What I am trying to say in the post is the toe dimension, to the middle of the trigger, is shorter than the heel dimension, to the middle of the trigger. The numbers don't matter because they would change with the LOP. What does matter is the angle. Here is how I measure the angle

Pull the bolt out of the gun. Wrap some tape around a long rod, so it is tight in whatever bore you have. I used a brass tube because it is rigid, not subject to warping like a dowel. Run the wrapped rod into the bore from the breech end. Get a protractor. Place it flat along the butt plate, top to bottom. Now adjust the angle of the protractor so it aligns with the line of the tube. If the angle is 90 degrees the pitch is neutral. If < than 90, negative, and > 90 positive.

If you need more, PM your phone number to me and we can chat.

The pitch controls the muzzle rise/fall. i.e. whether the recoil come straight back or causes the muzzle to rise/fall.

Your pics Wheelerdan.

A new 400 Whelen is Born_Skeleton Grip and Butt Plate

Along with the dream about the ovate barrel, skeleton butt plates and grip caps just scream classic to me. The late Oscar Gaddy, lived near me and shared his love for Damascus steel with me. So, this rifle just had to have a skeleton butt plate and grip cap, made out of Damascus steel.

The sequence of this build is important. Satterlee had rough carved the good-wood out of an exhibition piece of black walnut and returned same to me. Before I could begin final shaping the stock, the butt and grip caps had to be installed. These parts define the final dimensions and the wood-to-metal fit in these critical areas.

I had only seen pictures of one example of a Damascus skeleton butt plate and not grip caps. Efforts to get parts from that source did not pan out. What to do?

I obtained sketches of a regular skeleton grip/butt from a favorite catalog. Eventually I found a Damascus producer who agreed to cut the profiles for me. This Good Samaritan was Lacey Smith from Alabama Damascus Steel. The price was very reasonable and the wait was very long. The wait was caused by the plasma cutter, not the steel. The steel is produced daily. I am indebted to Lacey for making this possible.

BTW, the steel was delivered to me flat. I had to make a form to bend the radius for “beak” of the butt plate.

[email protected]

I was always put off by the price professional stockmakers charge to install skeleton parts on a stock. The butt can cost $1000 and the grip $350, not including the metal parts.

I was wrong! I am put off no more.

I have at least 10-12 hours in the grip and conservatively 40 hours inletting the butt. Granted, this is my first attempt, so I am very slow. The job came out very well. I only have 1 inletting “ouch” to fix. Even if the pros only charge a modest $25/hr, they are not making a loving inletting skeleton parts. The job is a certifiable PIA.

Grip cap – This is straight forward. I used a small stone in my Sears drill press to cut a 5 degree draft on the inside of bottom of the grip cap and butt plates. The draft allows the work to tighten as it goes into the wood. I used a SHARP pencil to scribe the line, and chisels to insize the first cuts. In the end, a Dremel with a depth gauge proved the most efficient method to remove bulk wood. Candle soot was used to ID where small amounts of material need to be removed. https://imgur.com/hnCIXQf

Butt plate – The basic process was the same as the grip, but the obstacles much more complex I could not get my head around how to inlet the radius and beak (inlet down) while also inletting for the butt-skeleton (forward). First, I make a cardboard of the inside of the butt plate. The cardboard doll helped locate the inletting for the nose. https://imgur.com/TL915bC

I had a piece of wood cut from the original buttstock, so I inlet the butt part of the plate into it. This got me the “inside-wood” of the skeleton. https://imgur.com/rZXFEZn https://imgur.com/ZYlFhRs

I cut this piece to about ½” thick, glued it onto the butt of the stock. From this point forward, I only had to inlet the radius and nose-over deep enough to cover the seam where the wood was glued to the butt. In affect, the skeleton butt plate lies on top of the butt and is located vertically by the skeleton inlet. This was a trial and error exercise using chisels, the Dremel, and candle soot.

A secret I learned somewhere was to tap the holes for any standard sized machine screw. This provides a method to remove the metal from the wood, without introducing any unwanted pry marks into the walnut. The final mounting screw heads will cover the thread the tap has cut, but are small enough to pass into the wood. https://imgur.com/TvVvQCh

There is some final finish work to complete to make the fit even more perfect. But the job is good enough that I can final shape the stock.

As of now, my story is caught up to the work. I have to final shape the stock before the next installment can be posted.

Tom Jackson is nearly done with mine. I went with an M70 and the barrel profile he cuts from Douglas blanks. I believe he calls it a Duke of Marlborough. 410 bore, Petrov dimension chamber. Im using a factory Win laminated stock that came with the rifle (Classic 25-06). Slightly regret not using a 1903, but the M70 just made more sense. I should have the gun back by the end of the month, I'll be going with CH4D dies like Mart, same dies Tom uses and they woek great with his personal 400 with the same reamer

Thinking of a 375 or 400 for my next. My current is a 35 AI on a SC M70 Featherweight. Looking forward to more updates.

So you wanted muzzle rise instead of straight back...correct?

No, sir. I want the recoil to come straight back. A rising muzzle causes the comb to nail my cheek. 3.5 degrees negative directs the recoil straight back .

Now I understand. I was thinking the slope of the recoil pad would cause it to rise up the shoulder and let the muzzle rise, but now that I think about it, it puts more of the butt plate in contact with the shoulder, eliminating the muzzle rise.

A new 400 Whelen is Born_Shaped stock

The delay in posting this installment is caused by actual work finalizing the stock.

These pix show the stock in it finished form. I took a couple of shots of the skeleton butt and pistol grips and the action installed sans the bolt and floor plate. The first coat of sealer made the grain really pop.

https://imgur.com/4Sv8QxM
https://imgur.com/7DBmhKk

The details of the stock design are in an earlier post.

https://imgur.com/nMzfSBm


Then next pix are taken during the actual finishing. The grain is raised beginning with 220 paper, through 400. At 400 Permelyn sealer is slopped on the stock as much as the stock will absorb. After each coat the sealer is sanded back to the original wood, but not into the wood. After the sealing, Permelyn is again with Rottenstone. It is applied in a slurry to fill the pores which still need it. This stock has very open pores, so it took three coats. Each time the Permelyn/rottenstone is sanded back to the wood using progressively finer paper. Now we are at 600 grit. The stock is getting more “polished” than sanded. The final finish is to be 100% pure Tung oil. The oil is applied with a t-shirt with some cotton balled inside. The pix shows the look after the 1st coat. Not sure how many coats will be required.

The above process seals the wood from moisture pretty well, makes a hard surface to support fine checkering, and concludes with a real hand rubbed oil finish.

https://imgur.com/UtZpVnB
https://imgur.com/wjRtxua
https://imgur.com/4YQxXjc
https://imgur.com/bBCJF4M


Last, here are some pix of the stocking/checkering cradle I use. It was designed and produced by Joel Shafer, the master checkering guru. It is handy because the stock can be turned in any direction. The use of a Winton Power Arm allows the rail to be positioned at any angle and or reversed. I suspend the work between the centers by affixing scrap pieces through the stock screw holes. Each stock requires a little bit different mounting. The cradle is the best means I have found to work on a stock without and y fear of scuffing, finger prints, tool marks, etc. I highly recommend it.

https://imgur.com/2rm47Ss
https://imgur.com/74lG4ni
https://imgur.com/bCZhcpH

That's a beautiful piece of wood!!


Mike

Since I just about have the 400 Whelen done, I just posted my 35 Whelen in the classified. Also posted a very neat M94 saddle ring carbine and a BSA bolt rifle. All very nice pieces.

So, if I read this correctly Dan, with the bore flat or level to the ground, the top of the recoil pad is closer to the muzzle than the bottom?

No, the other way around.
Picture a right angle, 90 degrees between the bore of the rifle and the flat of the butt plate. Now reduce the angle to 86.5 degrees (inside the angle). The toe-to-trigger is shorter than the heel-to-trigger. This little adjustment dramatically helps with recoil.

A new 400 Whelen is born_fit -function test

I have decided to make this the last entry for this post, as the construction, function-test phase of the rifle is complete. There are still things to do, but I will post them separately.

As for status, the stock and the metal are married together. The stock is shaped, and is finished with 100% Tung oil. 100% Tung oil is a decidedly different product than some of the alleged “Tung oil” products sold at big box stores. Those have very little TO in them. I bought this TO at a Woodcraft store. I like how Tung oil displays the grain. Also it hardens in a way Linseed does not. It dries hard (eventually), with an understated satiny finish.

The metal is polished to a 320 grit. It is currently a bit dirty from the stock construction and will need some tweaking before bluing.

Nest steps will be to engrave the metal and to checker the stock and rust blue the metal. Not sure if I will checker the stock or have it done. I definitely will have somebody else do the engraving because I have seen my work. I do my own rust bluing just because I love watching the process happen before my eyes.

https://imgur.com/Jeu4CKq
https://imgur.com/QYaqcau
https://imgur.com/Ms2il4Q
https://imgur.com/ukbRtRL

To close out this post, I final fit the metal to the wood. This required some minor fitting of the floor plate, regulating the screws, and so forth. I loaded up some ammo and took her to the range. I will do a separate complete post on ammo for the 400, but for the basic function test, this is what happened.

I shot cast bullets which were made from an LBT mold, made for this rifle. They weigh 325 grains, are of spire point design with a gas check. They are sized .412 and are tight fit in the throat. I loaded them so the ogive engages the rifling, but with mild loads, so as not to worry about pressure. I took two different loads to the range.

The first load contained 20 grains of Trail Boss. This fills the case just short of the base of the bullet. The second load was 45 grains of IMR 3031 with a tuft of Dacron on top. The tests were done with the 3X Big Bore Leupold scope mounted. When I got to the range, I pulled the scope out of the box and mounted it on the receiver bridges.

The Trail boss loads chronographed 1275, 1278, 1276 fps. Very consistent for speed, but they grouped into about 3,” high and right of the center hold. There was no recoil. My impression was these loads were not as accurate as I expected, but I also have a hunch the shooter was not shooting well. I will try the Trail Boss again. The rifle has a 1:18 twist. That might be a factor @ 1300 FPS. We’ll see in the next evolution.

The second load was nothing short of exceptional. After the TB results, I deliberately concentrated on shooting my best. 45 grains of 3031 chronographed 1861, 1874, 1875 fps, respectively. Recoil was mild, but more than the TB loads. Most importantly, the first three shots went into a cloveleaf 1” from the center hold. I could just cover them with a nickel. I stopped after the first 3 shots in case more shooting ruined the group by pilot error. This was enough to prove out the function of the rifle.

https://imgur.com/LW2zWmd
https://imgur.com/Jpd1AoN


It is worth noting that these respective loads are about ½ and 2/3 of full speed loads. Full power with this bullet is 2500 FPS+-. And, yes, this bullet can be driven at 2500 FPS without leading. But slow is a lot more fun for practice, more cost effective, is extremely accurate, and is quite potent.

It is important to emphasize that I took the rifle to the range, mounted the quick detachable scope at the range, and shot the group in the picture with load #2. This says something about the action, barrel, and mold makers craftsmanship. I have not tried these loads with the cocking piece sight. I will report on those results in the ammo post.

Thank you for following this project. I appreciate the many comments I have received. Please look for the posts on ammo for the 400 Whelen, and rust bluing of the rifle.

I would love to have some info on your load development with the CFE223 powder in the 400 Whelen. I just pick on up and am looking into the loadings for it. Would love to see what the new powders will do in it.

The rifle is off being engraved. When it returns, the next project is load development. I will document here.

Sweet, thanks. Gonna go watch paint dry now.

Where are you all finding dies for the 400 Whelen? Did a quick look and didn't find anything right off the bat. Anybody know where there is any in stock?

Damn 35, glad you sent me a PM, I never saw your post, you're on the way to GTG now.

CH4D has dies Big Buddy.

Quality Cartridge has brass, if you build, be dang sure and use the Petrov reamer.

Got it! Thanks Gunner!

I believe I may send some guns off....

Yo welcome Neighbor, 400gr Woodleigh Weldcores at 2255 are HAMMERS!

Gunner, what are you using for cases?

Quality Cartridge 400 basic brass, neck down to slight crush fit on closing, then trim to length, I hunted Africa with my fireform loads.

It's in stock at Quality Cartridge right now, better hurry.

Gunner, you post that load data anywhere? I'm getting close to ordering bullets and get going on mine.

Your velocity makes me curious, 2255/400gr is trucking a bit faster than I've seen from other data. Granted its a wildcat so not exactly any set standards. I'm curious because I've been thinking about having a 2nd 400 built but with a shorter barrel. If you're getting speed like that, a similar load in a 20-21" barrel might still come close to that magical 2100+ mark.

Tag. I’m interested in data as well.

Ch- 4D has them on the shelf. However, be very careful to specify the chamber dims you are using. I got a set which would not set my should back correctly. This is not a complaint. There are a lot of versions out there. Dave listened to my problem, measured my fire formed brass and sent me the correct set. Everything works as expected.

What the guys said. However, and just to cover all the options. I have made some out of 30/06 brass. This is a last resort and a PIA. The brass will end up a bit short, but it doesn't matter. It works and 30/06 brass is everywhere.

Better yet, I found out the Bufallo Arms people have tooling to convert 35 Whelento cylindrical. At the time this was happening all brass was scarce. I came across a bunch of new 35 Whelen brass and the BA people agreed to convert it for me at a very reasonable price. The converted brass is exactly like any other 30/06 cylindrical/basic brass I have seen.

I also bought some from Quality Cartridge specifically because they custom headstamp the caliber. Some countries require this, I am told.

I now have 300 cases +-. Since I shoot cast a lot, the first 50 might last me forever, but I am hoping 300 are enough for this lifetime.

Thanks for the post, I am quite interested but only in the Petrov chamber. He did so much for the 400 clan. I emailed him with a few questions but his articles were to cover most of my questions about details but history as well. The 400 has to be a hammer. His death was truly a loss. Be Well. Packy

I recently had a 400 Whelen made off of a mod 700 ADL. The barrel is a 28 in stainless Pac-Nor barrel. I just received my dies from Hornady. Ben did an outstanding job. I'm pushing a 300gr Hornady at 2484 behind a charge of 61gr H4895. The Hornady 400gr behind a charge of 55gr H4895 is traveling 2100fps. My first dies were customized 41 mag dies. My crimper was a 44cal RCBS bullet puller. I'm looking forward to hunting elk with this rifle.

Well i finally got to shoot my pair of 400's this weekend. Didn't have any 4895 or cfe 223, so looking at a burn rate chart, went with TAC. Loaded 57grs with a 400gr Hornady and a Remington 9 1/2 primer. Using 35 Whelen brass " thanks Muledeer", passed through the 400 die, then through a 44mag belling die to make a faulse shoulder, and back through the 400 die. My pard and I put 10 rounds through each rifle, mostly for function check. It's going to be a fun cartridge. It's been a long time in the making. Thanks Gunner500 and Mart, for the advice and all the leg work

Keenan

I've not had good luck with TAC in my 41 O&M wildcat, which is the same power level as the 400 whelen. It doesnt do well from a short 20" barrel and is too slow burning of a powder.

With a 350 grain A-Frame, I was seeing 2310 fps with 58 grains of Alliant 10x with low recoil. TAC gave more recoil and less velocity.
Here's my last string with TAC with the same 350 grain A-Frame:
55 grains: 1993 fps
56 grains: 2103 fps
57 grains: 2080 fps
58 grains: 2109 fps
59 grains: 2129 fps
60 grains: 2171 fps
61 grains: 2189 fps
62 grains: 2225 fps
63 grains: 2218 fps
64 grains: 2233 fps. Full case/slight powder compression.

Dang, MileHighShooter, I never saw this post, if you haven't developed loads yet, by all means, you and pabucktails shoot me a PM, will be back this evening, another crazy busy day is already well underway.

Yo welcome muzzleblast, enjoy one of the most efficient and pound for pound heavy punchers out there in the world of cartridges.

Ha! I missed THIS post as well! I still haven't gotten around, 2020 being the way it is but I'm going to this week or next, pm incoming