I truly want to build a 404 on a standard m98 action! Tell me who can build the magazine and alter the action with out raking me over the coals! I got the action and want someone with experience in this task!

Dennis Olson - Plains, MT

Duane Wiebe or Jim Kobe would be at the top of my list.

I had a local smith open one up for me for the 404. It works fine if done right. I had Dennis Olsen rebarrel/convert to magnum a Mod 700 for me one time. he was very professional, great to talk with, I can recommend him too. I have also used Gary Stiles, but not sure he is still in business. Love the idea ( never got to use it ongame) of the 404. Recoils like a ,375 H&h, and they say it "hits" like a ,458!

Gary passed away a few years ago.

It's more than just opening the bolt face. The mag is a major deal as the .404 round is fatter than what the Mauser was designed for.

I've seen pictures of Mausers with the sides of the box gone, the rounds running against the sides of the stock inlet, only the rear of the box still there.

Feeding can be an issue. I built a .404J on a M-70 RUM action. Because of the fat RUM cases, the main thing with that one was opening the bolt face.

Jkob would be the one I would PM.

He's worked on Mausers for me in the past, knows his stuff, is a Fire contributor and a good guy.

DF

Thanks DF

Otis, I see in your bio you are also a gunsmith, so I'll give you a few tips.

First, open the BACK of the magazine well up so as to come close to the spring boss of the original trigger. In doing that you leave a lot more of the lower locking abutment when you re-shape the feed ramp for the larger Cartridge. When the action is opened up you can then make (of have someone make) the bottom metal, because at that point you have the dimensions and points to measure from.

If you want to make the action lock for absolute maximum strength, anneal the locking abutments and lap the bolt back so all 3 lugs are contacting, then heat-treat of case harden the action ,and you end up with a 3 lug system. The solid lug of a standard Mauser is the one that locks in the 6:00 position, and that is the weaker of the 2 front abutments. The split lug (left lug) locks to the stronger abutment at 12:00. But the 3rd "safety lug" is solid and locks into an abutment that is as solid as the top ring abutment so in making a Mauser 98 lock on all 3 lugs it more then doubles the total locking strength of the action.
You take an old barrel or simply a 1.1" piece of steel that you thread to fit the action and drill the "chamber" to take a 3/4" coil spring. make a plunger to fit into the bolt face and install the plunger and spring into the hole so it is thrusting back again the bolt with heavy spring pressure. Put 120 grit lapping compound in the locking sockets and on the bolt luge and work the bolt up and down so the lugs lap their way back until the rear lug is in solid contact with the receiver abutment. Then re-heat treat.

If you are going to TIG a scope mount on the gun do that before you lap the bolt back so any slight warping you might get is not going harm a thing because the lapping will true things up fine afterwords. I did not weld any scope bases on my own 404 but I have done it on other rifles. I was not making a show piece so I just used a screw on base for myself.

Original Kynoch loads for the 404 were made to duplicate the 450/400 round. They fired a 400 grain bullet at 2150 FPS and if you load your ammo within those specs there is not any need to lap back the bolt and make a 3 lug system out of the action. However if you want to beat the modern 416s and load to 2400 or even 2500 it is wise to lap the bolt back and make the action super strong. (I personally think it's waiser to not load that hot, but that's just me)

The German RWS loads I used in the 70s were a 400 grain bullet at 2350 FPS (Same is the old 416 Rigby) so modern German specs for the loads are more powerful then the 1910 era English specs. I used both Kynock and RWS ammo and the old ammo seemed to work just fine, so hot loading the round doesn't seem to give any added killing effects. I load all my ammo at 2250 because my rifle shoot that load with excellent accuracy, but I see no reason to want anything faster. I am half-way between the old English load and the new German load.


Back to the smithing:
Leave the feed lips alone until you get the new bottom metal made.
And I have found it's best to load dummy cartridges (or use live ammo but remove the firing pin from the bolt) and work on the left side of the action first, to get the feed lips working and then the right side. You actually have to open up the "gullets" of the action on both sides before you work on the lips because if you don't do that first you'll change the feed geometry. My 404 holds 4 in the mag. You must get a perfect "stack" with all cartridges laying in full contact with each other before you start to try to make them feed. For some reason I have found that working the left side and then the right side seems to be easier then working the right side and then the left side.

Leave the military safety in place until your stock is made. It's easy to know when your bolt handle is 100% locked as you inlet it in the new stock or relieve a cut in the tang to clear it, by using the original safety. It won't lock the bolt until it's fully closed.

I do the bolt face and extractor first.
Next the scope bases if desired.
Then I do the lapping (if needed)
Next I barrel and chamber the rifle.
Next I make and weld on the new bolt handle, being sure the handle will let the bolt fully lock by using the original safety.
Then do the magazine work as I outlined above.
Then adjust the trigger to you liking.

If you build this way, everything has to be fit one piece at a time, but I never found that to be a big deal.
The magazine drops below the old stock line, so a hand made stock is needed and even if you could find a semi-inlet Mauser stock for a drop-mag, the ones I made were a bit different then those that were factory made because I do about 80% of my extending to the rear and only about 20% to the front. That could make the magazine not fit a semi-inlet stock unless the panagrapher were to pad up his stylus to a point to leave about .100" extra wood in the mag well. So I have not tried to find a panagraper to do such work. If anyone here knows of any that understand this kind of work, please chime in and tell the rest of us. If you don't find such a man it's not a big deal. Making a hand made stock for a Mauser is not all that hard to do.

Once you have the stock made and inlet, add tip and cap as well as a butt pad.
Add your sights after the stock is made so you can get a perfect fit and shape the stock so the rifle drops the sights into line with your eye and still clears the scope base if you have one.

If you are going to use a barrel band, be sure to add it before you install the front sight.

I zero the rifle in the white and with the stock "raw" and full of file marks. In that way I get the loads worked up and the sights all zeroed and never mark the gun later from use before I have it finished. A few adjustments and bumps at this point make no difference because all the finish work and checkering are yet to come.

Now do all your stock finishing. Checker it after the final finish is done and then add some checkering finish at the very last stage of the stock work.

Last, do your metal finish and add any engraving you'd like.
Assemble for the last time and the rifle is done.

I think I would just go with a Dakota, M70 or Montana action unless it was going to be traditional Jeffrey all the way.

Thank you Szihn, will study your method and work towards the end result, seem easy enough! Maybe I should just have you do it? Ha!

Pictures are appreciated!!!


Mike

I am honored, but I can't accept any new work for a while. I have a 3 to 3-1/2 year back-log, and I am getting too old to be comfortable with anything longer. But thanks for the offer.

I am always willing to give advice if you'd find it helpful.

It's a lot of hand work, bit for someone with skills it's not all that hard to do. If you'd like to talk let me know and maybe I can help you as you go with some tips.
Here are 2 pics of the one I made for myself (before checkering)
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by .com/photos/156296479@N08/]Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by .com/photos/156296479@N08/]Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

Duane Wiebe has produced a book for $24 I think which details conversion of mausers to magnum carts.

Got this on the internet. This is what I'm talking about, the 98 box cut away except the rear wall. The rounds run against the stock inlet. I'm thinking the inlet width would have to be perfect and I'd probably epoxy sheet metal on the sides of the inlet to form the sides, probably the front, of the wider box. I would think that could be tricky if one didn't know the exact dimensions the finished product needed to be. And, that doesn't address feeding issues, follower, etc.

For a slick feeding 404J on a 98 action, you'll need a real pro to tackle this type project, IMO.

As noted, I built a .404J on a Classic NH M-70 RUM donor. But, IMO, a .404J on a std 98 is another matter. I wouldn't tackle it.

DF

Beautiful!!

Mike

That was how Jeffery commissioned it done from 1905 until 1910. What is difficult to see , unless blow up the photo, is the steel plate inlet in the stock at the front of the magazine box.

The stock inlet becomes the mag box.

What about the sides, where there steel plates on the sides of the mag inlet, or just in front?

That was the best photo I could find on line. Not the best, but shows how they did it.

That lets me know I wouldn't want to try to adapt a 98 Mauser for .404J. Seemed to work for those guys.

But, they knew what they were doing.

DF


Edited to add, on closer examination of the stock, there seems to be a "U" shaped metal lining of the mag inlet, in essence forming a new metal box mag for oversized .404J rounds. The metal lining on three sides completes the box mag with dimensions to accommodate those big rounds. I would think this required considerable altering of the feed ramps. The wider box may require a different follower. I've never examined one of these up close.

szihn...Striking looking rifle. A form from otherwhen, I could see it on a rack, right above a Lee Speed. A lovely way to get a proper magazine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ap8x2bNxc
Was watching this and he states the RUM conversion is not the correct bolt face measurement sounds like he knows what he talking about! Any opinions would be nice!

Beautiful is that enfield bottom metal?

Correct on bolt face, has to be opened.

The box mag is pretty close, feed ramps may need opening some.

RUM about the easiest donor to convert.

DF

Dennis Olson in Plains, MT is one to ask about this. So far as the stock being the mag box I should think a nice thin epoxy around the sides would help protect the wood as well as the small bit of steel epoxied into the front.

I think they had a metal lining front and sides on that mag. Looks like a “U” shaped piece of steel from what I can see. One would need to take care with how wide the box ended up. The follower would need to be crafted to function in that application. I think it would take a master craftsman to make that work.

DF

MY .404 Jeffery, built on a Zastava Interarms Mk X action, has an all-steel magazine with a hinged floor plate. Looks to me like the original magazine, but enlarged, so I dug out the build sheet with prices from my gunsmith. All that I found was a cryptic line that said "Enlarge magazine $40." I have not been curious enough to take it out of the stock, but fit and finish are like new.

"Enlarge magazine, $40" is amazing. He must have some slick and easy way of doing it. I would have thought that would be a lot more than a forty dollar job...

DF

He is a fan of the .404 Jeffery and Mauser actions, and he has been building one or two of them each year, for the last 20 years or so.

Amazing.

DF

He was a fine fellow in my opinion. Back in early 90's, he did my very first rebarrel job/trigger work on a Mod 70 FWT (PF). Killed my first cow elk with it. Later on, he fixed a feeding problem in a Mod 70 .375 Express for me. He rechambered my first 35 Whelen AI in mid 90's. He sure did excellent work! I am fast approaching "that age" were I "knew more people"(passed on) than I do now (alive), ha. King David called it when he said "Now I go the way of all the earth". Now is the time to shoot/hunt fellows!

Good point.

I understand your philosophical statement, so true.

DF

I"m sure he would not mind the plug from you. Who is this masked man? Can you provide some pics? It would be instructive for the rest of us.

Unfortunately, he has retired. Since I quit photo bucket, I have been unable to post photos here on the campfire using any of the suggested photo hosting sites.

Here is a link to pictures that I posted here a while back: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11427814/all/My_Sort_of_New_Toy

Very nice!!

Mike