So I've never had a heavy(ish) barreled target/varmint rig. Always wanted one. I live pretty close to Bugholes/Southern Precision and been back and forth with Greg a bit and thought I'd get a few qualified opinions here. It'd be mostly a giggle gun. Just joined a new range that includes a 1,000 yard rifle range (humbling with an AR). There's starting to be a bit more competitive shooting in my region, and that's a game I've always wanted to try. Probably a deer or yote or two just because.

I get that it'll be heavy and long, but I've got a half dozen "packable" deer rifles. The two most accurate and easy to shoot rifles I've every fooled with have been .223 varmint rigs (one Tikka and one Remington), so I like the concept of the A.I. with heavies. Not to mention zero recoil and very little noise (I'll have my 9" SAS suppressor on the end of it).

Build details would be a Bighorn Origin, Tacticool knob, .223 bolt face, 24" 1:7 Muller Works barrel, Rem Varmint (or something close) contour. Trigger Tech Special trigger w/flat blade (have a flat blade Geisselle on my AR and love it). Drop the works in a KRG Bravo Chassis.

Have a Burris 5-25 XTR II mil/mil with a set of Burris Sig rings waiting in the safe to put on top of it. Grabbed it on a deal a year or so a go.

Probably try Starline Brass, if I don't like it for whatever reason, I can put it back for the AR and roll Lapua, probably fireform with 75 HPBT's and go to 88 ELD's with formed cases. Have plenty of 400's and 205M's on hand. Have Lever, RL-15, and TAC on hand. Thinking Redding dies.

If I ever feel "undergunned", the Bighorn has switchaloo bolt heads. Shouldered/nutted switchaloo barrels would be easy to come by. 700 compatibility would likely lead to an extra stock or two for different applications. Rail makes it easy to swap scopes.

No real specific questions. Just looking for any input from those who have fooled with such a rig.

Thanks!!!

Sounds like a solid plan to me. The .224’s are too much danged fun!

Sounds good. The "Remage" barrel nut could be a good option. I typically leave a rifle set up once I have it shooting, but others really utilize the switch barrel option so good to have that option. You could do a series of barrels in X 47 or go to the Creedmoor case for the larger bores.

You give any thought to chambering a .22-250 with the 7" twist?

That would be my huckle berry. Cheers NC

Might consider a 6BR while you're at it......

Seriously thought about the .22 Creed (friggin awesome round from what I’ve read), .22 BR, and 6 Br, but kept on coming back to the .223ai (remember, this is for a FIRST barrel) due to what should be extremely mild manners and very long barrel life (here’s to hoping I get to wear it out).

You could always go with the standard 223 and get essentially the same performance but without the benefit of getting to buy special dies, of course. GD

...and without the benefit of getting to trim your brass all the time

Absolutely nothing wrong with that build Potsy. Use good brass and the FF'ing for the AI is a mute argument as a couple hundred pcs should last you the life of that barrel if you take care of it. The gain in performance and decrease in trimming as Jordan eluded to far outweighs the other.

Make sure you let Bighorn know it’s gonna be a .223AI as they’ve had feed issues and will give you a push feed bolt face that fixes the issue.

25 fps, reduced frequency of trimming, and crappy feeding are what you gain with the 223 Ackley.
A regular 223 will feed better, a WFT takes care of the trimming, and an extra inch of barrel length will make up for the velocity.

This^^^^^

I didn't really have much to add so I wasn't going to but it seems like there's a bit of negativity over the AI idea. To be complete, I'll say I haven't done .223 AI specifically, but I've owned a .22-250AI, a 6mm Rem AI, and a .280AI, plus a 6mmX.284 which is even fatter than an AI. I don't think you have anything to worry about. For me, the velocity gain appeared to be 75-100 fps .. since I didn't first chamber the std cartridge, then have the same barrel rechambered, it is not possible to make a specific claim and back it up with anything but talk. Likewise, unless a person has done that, they can't claim it failed with anything but talk.

One of the issues may be magazine length limiting COL if you're going with a fast twist for heavy bullets. You can get around it with a single shot follower or possibly with an aftermarket magazine setup depending on the action you've chosen.

Juggling all the limiting factors can be a substantial portion of the fun of designing such a project. Sounds like you know that, though.

Best of luck!!

Tom

Nah, the 4 to 1 rule makes it easy to figure out the increase in velocity or lack thereof.

I sure am glad this isn't one of those awful threads with pictures of.....never mind.

6BR is a tough one to beat for what the OP is describing.

I appreciate the replies. I also appreciate the fact that we've made it through nearly a page without the thread descending into pics of scantily clad women of questionable moral fiber (not that I have anything against that, I'm just hoping we can make it through a couple pages first, as a matter of fact, the more questionable the fiber, the better!)

I've been pouring over cartridge selection for this one for years. There is a lot of good componentry and case designs out there, and I do not believe there is a single "wrong" idea on this page. Fact is, I've considered all of them plus several others.

I seriously considered both the 6br, the .22br, and the Dasher versions of both. I considered the .224 Valkyrie, .224 Grendel, .220 Thunderbolt, the .22 Creed, the 6 and 6.5 Creed.

At the end of the day, the .223a.i. works in the performance window I want to be in. The br case would add 200 fps to any given bullet weight, which wouldn't suck, but it would make a difference at the butt plate, granted, adding 200fps to an 8lb. .30-06 is gonna be way more noticeable than adding 200fps to a 15lb .223a.i., but it's still gonna be there. Same story for all the larger cases. The .22 Creed seems incredible, but an 88 at 3200 is gonna recoil a whole lot more like a .243 than a .223. For some reason, I just like the idea of an 88 at 2,750fps, and the rifle not even moving when I pull the trigger. I will admit that if I were limited to one barrel (and barrels ain't cheap, don't get me wrong), I'd likely roll something with a bit more oomph.

The Valkyrie doesn't offer anything over the .223 in a longer-than-AR-mag. The Grendel, and Thunderbolt cases would work well, if it weren't for sketchy A.I. pattern mag feeding and availability for bolt actions.

It's also the cheapest to shoot in terms of brass, bullets, and powder. Which of course means absolute dick nothing when your talking about a rifle that will cost more than my truck by the time I'm done, but it still played into my thought process.

I'd believe that longer mags and deeper throats allowing more case capacity along with loading to higher pressures in longer barrels contributes way more to the magic of the .223 Ackley Improved than the slight capacity gain of fireformed brass, but I still don't see the downside. I'm gonna roll an Ackley if for no other friggin' reason than the cases look really cool with long bullets sticking out of them! There, I said it. But I've also noticed that anyone who's ACTUALLY OWNED a .223a.i. was in love with it, and that speaks volumes.

Higbean, I appreciate the heads up on the push feed bolt head. Greg told me about that today. Apparently, the controlled feed head didn't play very well with .223 cases, Ackleyfied or not.

I've owned four 223 Ackleys.
I'll not own another.

That is the route I would go.

Had you said that you had married the same woman four times in order to figure out you didn't like her, I would suspect that she had at least some positive qualities/talents.

I have three barrels for my TL3 all with loctited nuts and flats at the muzzle.

22" 6 Dasher, 21" .22BR Shilens and a 22" .20 Practical Criterion.

Love the cartridges, love the rifle but changing stuff around is a pain in the ass and I wish I'd have just stuck with the 6 Dasher.

People learn and grow.

If you didn't want advice from those with experience, why did you post the thread to begin with?

I guess that might have sounded a shade snippy. I prolly shouldn’t post when tired.

Put another way, what made you change your mind on the fifth go round?

I’m not real likely to go SAAMI, but I am curious.

223 brass is so cheap, and common the argument of trimming is dumb...

Prolly... JFC.

Well, I have a 22-250 Remington Varmint that was my most accurate rifle and my favorite for small furry animals up and including Rock chucks, yotes, etc... until I built my 223AI. The Velocity gain was more than I was expecting, but with the 26" barrel it is fairly smoking along. But the fun part is the tiny little groups is has shot from day one.... and it has substantially less recoil than the 22-250 and less muzzle blast.

I wouldn't have a problem with a SAAMI .223, but this AI version has just been way too much fun to give up on. Just wish it had a faster twist so I could play with some heavier bullets....

Bob

dave

...well.....If you don't reload it is.... If you're just going to shoot factory ammo or only load "new" brass then the .223 is the way to go. If you're going to reload then the AI certainly reduces trimming.

PG does mention the biggest issue with the AI and that's feeding. The 100% cure on that is to go detachable mag but it can be "massaged" to feed in most formats.

Certainly nothing wrong with standard .223 twisted fast with adequate mag box length if a person goes that route...and certainly no reason to go the AI route if you're not going to reload.

I have .223s, .22-250s and .223ai. The AI definitely provides a velocity gain and the lack of trimming is a plus. It's the easiest to load for since there is little to no case stretch; It's as simple as a Lee collet and prime/charge/seat. I however, do not like having to fireform first before taking advantage of the case. My .22-250 provides me with about a 200 fps gain and an extra 7 gr of powder over the .22-250. It has to be one of the most inefficient cartridges in the stable. I won't have another .22-250. If the AI tickles your fancy, go for it. Greg has built a rig for me....It's a lazer.

Mags will be detachable. From everything I've read (here and elsewhere), MDT 10 rounders and Accurate Mag 5 rounders are the way to go. Guys have been filing the front to the plastic insert out to get OAL to about 2.550", IIRC. Feed issues (SAAMI or Ackley Improved) have been pretty non-extant.

I just look at it like I'll have a really nice .223 for a few hundred rounds, even if they are a tick slower for whatever bullet/weight, and then a slightly faster .223A.I. afterwards. Only thing I'm out is another set of dies, and I've been wanting an excuse to buy and try a set of Reddings anyway.

22-204.........

I have chambered both the standard round and the AI in the same barrel. I have dealt with the AI feeding issues. I have fired both cartridges to see how much they grew with firing (zero, in both chamberings), neck sizing ( near zero) and fl sizing (edge to the AI with the amount dependent upon the chamber/die dimensions).
In comparing the two chamberings for velocity, I had to rely on case head expansion to gauge max pressure since that was all I had. I couldn't be sure what the pressure was but I could damn sure tell when it was too hot. I load until I got .0005" on the second firing of the case and called that absolute max. Velocity difference was about .5%.
Fun fact: A tight-chambered AI may actually have less powder capacity than a slightly sloppy factory rifle in the standard 223 chambering.
I have the AI reamer because I had clients who wanted it and it was their money (at least it was theirs until they got the bill!). The chance that I will use that reamer for one of my own rifles is exactly zero. GD

222 mag......

my heavy 223AI is built on a Savage target action......28" 9 twist Pac Nor

Bushy 4-30x50 Tact......Choate varminter stock.........18# on the table

p/dog killin' SOB.........53 V max & 55 Nozler BTs work best on dogs

Wrong.......

221 Fireball - 222 Rem - 223 Rem - 223 AI - 222 Rem Mag - 22-204 - 22-204 w/80 VLD - 22 Dasher - 22x47 Lapua

I fully understand why, but I can't remember the last time I heard the poor .220 swift mentioned.

The inline mags will help a bunch with feeding, both in regular 223 and Ackley versions.

As far as the 223 Ackleys I owned, two were used barrels I traded into (one fairly light barrel and one chunk). In the third case, I was really interested in the rifle, and would've been happier with a SAAMI 223. I had the 4th one built. Eventually came to my senses regarding Ackley chamberings, it just took me a few years.

FWIW, I'd agree with these other guys, and go with a 6 BR or BR derivative for the rifle setup you're laid out.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

the 222 rem mag necked down to 20 cal is now a 204 ruger

Wrong.

https://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_204_ruger

You are correct Tikkadude, but I think what prairie_goat is getting at is that the .204 is not simply a necked down .222 Rem Mag. Its shoulder was also moved forward and shoulder angle increased to (I think) 30 degrees.

Correct.......

The 222 mag case is the parent of the 204 Ruger, but the shoulder is moved forward .075" and given a 30 degree shoulder.

Both have a 1.850" case length.

My picture shows that plain as day.......

parent case...........thx for clarification TinCock.......

for my current hod rod 20 cal...its a 20 Practical.......

actually a tad faster than my previous 204R.....in the same barrel

had the 204R rechambered to the 20 PT......

but thats cutting hairs.......same as the 223AI vs the 222 mag

a dead p/dog is a dead p/dog

While the .22-204 looks really appealing, brass availability/variety look a bit sketchy. It does look like it would have as much more capacity over the .223a.i. as the a.i. has over the standard .223.

Another tidbit I ran up on; in a lot of comps, there is a .308 and .223 only class. A.I.'s have to compete in the open class with everyone else.

Also looked some more at the .22BR. Really interesting little cartridge...............

Had my heart set on a .223 A.I., but, dangit, the more I read, the more I waffle.

The decision between the 223 and 223 AI should not be that difficult. Build it as a standard 223 and shoot it for a while, if you are unhappy with the performance then open it up to 223 AI.

drover

The 22-204's capacity has, at most, a hair more than the 223AI. The beauty lies in no fireforming, just neck up and go.

The easy button would be a plain 'ol 223 7 twist in a 28" or 30" for max velocity, as weight & portability is not a concern.

Just go with the .223AI. The brass is cheap and plentiful, FF'ing is simply shooting the rifle with 100 fps less velocity, trimming is non-existent, and if you want to compete get yourself a bolt head and a barrel chambered in something more competitive, like 6 BR, 6 Creedmoor, etc.

.....Yeap.....

223AI is ok for pigs.

I'd do vanilla .223 which is what I've come back to after the other offerings....

No fuss whatsoever. Dial a couple clicks more than what's been mentioned this far....

Jeez Butch, that thing looks like some of the groundhogs that got in front of my .25-06.

What load?

Actually shot by a friend on his ranch. He has a huge amount of them. He hunts them with a conventional bow. I'll send him an email.

Makes a purty good squirrel gun with 75 AMaxes.....

I have an idea that if I like a 17lb. .223A.I., I'd also like a 7lb .223A.I..............Just sayin'............

Oh, it's a magical round....

Yep. Magical in its velocity gains, seemingly in violation of the laws of physics (or maybe guys are just loading the 223 Ackley to higher pressures ).

Is the 6 Dasher magic too?

TONS of competent reloaders pushing that cartridge to .243 speeds (long bbls, I know) and yet the .223AI is the magic one I guess.

As a reloader, I look for sticky bolt lift and primer pocket longevity as that's all I've got to go on.

.223AI formed brass, 75 ELD and 8208 will bump 3,100 fps in a 21" bbl with long brass life.

Hodgdon states 2,800 in a 24" bbl with a 75 JLK fwiw.

So if I back down to 3,000 fps is it still magic?

I’ll never understand the hatred toward a chambering AI or otherwise?

There has got to be a reasonable middle ground somewhere.

Maybe we can find it on the next .223AI thread?

I understand, I was once a member of the redline club, too. A hot day, oil in the chamber, etc, can turn a borderline load into an over the top load. A locked up gun can ruin a hunt, and a face full of gas from a pierced primer isn't a good time.

It's fine to load hot, until it's not. But it's your face behind the bolt, load as hot as you want.

So, is 3,000 fps hot in a .223AI with a 75 ELD?

“Magical”.... too [bleep] funny...

Pass me some safety glasses and a 6BRA....

I'm not one to push the edge on speed. For my uses, the standard 223 will work just fine on performance. The reason I love the AI version so much is because I hate trimming brass so much...

+1

A WFT goes a long way towards solving that issue, as does buying 223 brass in bulk for 50 or 60 bucks a thousand, and throwing it away once it needs trimming.

A benefit of cheap brass is that it's no big deal if cases are lost down a prairie dog hole or ejected into a snowbank. Of course, that applies to regular 223 or the Ackley.

Appreciate the pic & info, aalf --interesting as always.

for me, fwiw--AI jobs do reduce trimming which is often a PITA. They can bump you up a notch in velocity in a given case when that "space" between cartridges exists --e.g. particularly in cartridges of the shooter's interest that are held to low SAAMI pressure for some legacy reason.

Those are both two good enough reasons for me as a handloader.

That said, more velocity is a product of more pressure or added capacity. A few grains additional capacity ain't gonna net substantial...but pressure sure can make a difference...:)

I think one reason I'm drawn to the whole A.I. concept is that what would be a warm load in a standard case should be more than reasonable in the A.I. case.
In the .223, right now I'm running 75HPBT's in a 16" AR at around 2700fps at what I'm (admittedly) guessing is somewhere just under 60kpsi. Add 8" of barrel, less bullet in the case (deeper throat, more mag length), bullets with less bearing surface (ELD-M vs. HPBT), it seems to me that adding 300fps would be entirely reasonable without being hot. The A.I. chamber should run at even less pressure.

In other words, while everyone wrings their hands over loading the AI hot, running what would be higher performance loads in a .223 should be running at lower pressures in the improved version.

Funny, you never hear anyone complain about trimming Crapmore brass with it's 30* shoulder.

Yet a 22-204 has a 30* shoulder..........

Trimming is trimming....

Nothing “magical” about the WFTs either. Great tool, but still it’s a step I try to avoid if I can.

Did you run Bean’s load in QL yet?

All the THOUSANDS of guys shooting 22-204’s and I haven’t once heard a complaint about trimming brass.

I trim every chance I get.

Unused case capacity will lower pressure w/same powder in any cartridge--determining pressure for a true comparison is the real challenge. Consider that differences in velocity exist between "identical" barrels.

The "warm" load dropped down a grain in the standard cartridge implementing the longer barrel may prove a better round than the AI with the same warm load in your example. It is guesswork, but it is your dime and experimentation is more rewarding than flattening our asses on the internet.

Potsy,

The flaw in your thinking is that when you run standard .223 loads in the AI case you lose some velocity--the inevitable byproduct of lower pressures in the SLIGHTLY larger capacity AI case.

Here's the deal on the .223 AI: Years ago somebody with a strain-gauge reported that the .223 AI came close to matching .22-250 velocities at the same pressure, apparently due to the magic 40-degree AI shoulder.

Unfortunately, strain-gauge pressures can be inaccurate, for several reasons. Which is why companies that use them check the accuracy of the results with that's called "reference ammo," ammunition provided by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) that's been cross-checked by several pressure set-ups (including the more precise piezo-electronic system preferred by major powder companies). But there is no reference ammo for non-standard cartridges, so there's no realistic way to check whether .223 AI pressures shown by a strain-gauge are accurate.

Of course, many people claim the .223 such great velocities due to the 40-degree shoulder allowing powder to burn "better" or "more efficiently." But I contacted several piezo labs when working on an article about pressure a few years ago, and NONE had ever seen smaller cases produce the same velocity as larger cases at the SAME pressure, regardless of shoulder and case shape The myth of magic shoulder angles and other case dimensions resulting in "free" velocity is just that, a myth.

Still, this .223 AI "info" got out, and one major rifle company was on the verge of introducing the .223 AI as a factory round--until they had it piezo tested, which proved the strain-gauge info was erroneous.

Yes, the .223 can gain SOME velocity over the standard AI, but the amount of extra powder room is so minimal that it makes very little difference. Instead, the higher velocity mostly occurs because of loading .223 AI ammo to higher pressure--which works because the standard commercial .223's maximum average pressure is inly 55,000 PSI. When the .223 AI is loaded to pressures more like the 5.56 NATO's 62,000 PSI, the .223 AI naturally gains some velocity--but only when powder charges are increased. In pressure, there is no free lunch.

Most .223 AI fans report high velocities because they load according to "pressure signs" such as brass and primer appearance, or stiff bolt lift. The trouble with these is they often don't appear until around 70,000 PSI, which is 5000 PSI higher than any SAAMI commercial cartridge, and high enough to result in problems in hot weather, or in a hot barrel--or due to any other little thing that might increase pressure. Which is why no SAAMI commercial cartridge has a maximum average pressure over 65,000 PSI: It provides a pretty good safety margin.

I've owned a .223 AI, partly to experiment with. But I've also "worked up" loads in the standard .223 that came within 50 fps of .223 AI loads with no "signs" of excess pressure. No doubt the .223 loads were far over 55,000, 62,000 or 65,000 PSI, but they did not show any "pressure signs."

The biggest virtue of the .223 AI is less case-stretching when full-length resized in a die that's set up right.This is standard among AI rounds--but also many newer commercial rounds with sharper shoulders. But the AI only results in significantly more velocity than the standard .223 when loaded to much higher pressure.

If there was 55k data out for the .223AI guys would ignore it just the same as the SAAMI data on the .223

A cure, though unlikely, is a factory 223AI round at higher pressures-- ala Nosler with the 280AI at modern pressure accompanied by published lab data.

May take a bit but over a few decades the figures will take a set in the collective mind...:)

I have been shooting the 223 AI on Rem 700's as a single shot since the late 80's, perhaps a dozen barrels or more. Some barrels are on their third set back that are used on colony varmints. You should see a long barrel 223 ai in action on colony varmints.

N133 with 50g is 3800 out of a 26" barrel

N135 with 55g is 3650

H335 with 50g is 3700+

Benchmark with 50g is 3650+

aa2015 with 50g is 3800

aa2015 and N133 with 40g is 4150

all of the stated velocities is at the accuracy node.

I have been shooting the same IMI brand of brass since 1989 which I believe was made by Lapua.

For a repeater, make life easy, go 22/204

For colony varmints, H335 seals the deal on barrel life with extremes in accuracy with speed, and a 50g V max will make you stand up and shout!

all of the above loads and velocities are standard with may guys that I shoot with...no great surprise in 12-14T barrels with zero freebore.

I think you're near it, but a problem with a standardized 223AI is that the 223 itself has trouble working well with increasingly more common (and personally, interesting) high BC bullets in actions built for it's SAAMI specified OAL. You could make the AI version longer and fit it in a standard short action just like many a 223rem, but that short action would be better utilized with a 22-250/AI/22 creedmoor. So what's the point of the 223 AI then? My thought would be to standardize a cartridge that does about what the 223 rem/ai does but in a normal sized micro-length action...so 22 grendel.

223 ai in detachable mags is not hard to figure out.

When choosing actions, think about 6 barrels down the road, metal fatigue is a reality.

All my 22-204's are set up as factory BDL's. I take spacer out the 223 mag box, and narrow up a 308 machined follower enough to slide freely in the 223 box. Voila, I can load as long as I want.

My loads with the 80 grain Berger VLD's in the lands a hair, are at 2.585" OAL, plus I can get 6 down and one in the chamber.

Well I did say "unlikely"...the 22-204 is looking interesting, though--none of these threads are particularly helpful for a guy wanting to keep the stable thinned...:)

I've ran 8 222 Mags for several years now and am very happy with all of them. Data is getting better, but 223 AI data (The new Sierra manual being a good one) runs up to NATO pressures and is right where I run the Mag Deuces, since they are for all intents the same in regards to powder capacity. Some claim longer necks like the 222 Mag make throats wear a little longer, I don't know or care.

Just remember, all cases should be fireformed; its not a bad thing regarding safety, reliability and precison. Fireforming isn't a bane, regardless of cartridge. I don't consider anything serious before doing so.

Like the 22-204, brass isn't difficult to come by as is it gets repeated and if running through a bolt gun, most aren't running military hulls in 223's, but cases of known precision.

A cartridge that seems to get little mention these days is the 22 PPC, despite having a bit more capacity than just about all the 222 class cartridges, excepting maybe the 5.6 x 50 Magnum.
It's going to get that extra 100 fps. or so without so much as sneezing versus comparing what has been arguing over the same/similar powder capacity cartridges with no real velocity advantages over each other, despite the usual semantics.
Just another one to consider.

Just an update......

Got my Bighorn Origin ordered a couple weeks ago. Also sent Bighorn a Trigger Tech Diamond (flat bow) to time to it.

I think I'll tell them to pitch in a .473" bolt head, I'll use it eventually, even if I don't waffle on the .223AI.

Now I just get to wait...........

aalf,

I do the same with a BDL 223ai. It works really slick with four rounds down but any more than that and it gets a little jacked up. Did you have to tweak the mag box at all to make it work? It seems the wider channel on the 308 follower doesnt allow the rounds to stagger as they should, beyond the four rounds that work consistently.

Thanks

my 223AI today in dog town.......

my second barrel.........9500 rds outta the first.....

28" 9 twist Pac Nor.....Salvage target action

tikka,

What bullet/velocity did you shoot on the first tube that lasted 9,500 rounds?

I've not had to tweak the mag box on any of mine. Could be the slightly wider shoulder diameter on the Ackley is the culprit. I just tried three of mine, and all hold 6 down, albeit one is a little too snug for my liking for working the bolt. For calling, I generally only keep four down & one in the spout anyway.

Thanks, aalf.

I'm also fine with 4+1 under most circumstances. It feeds so well with four down that I'd rather not mess with it. If I need more than five I'm either on the best stand of my life or I suck at shooting. I can live with that.


Thanks again.