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Posted By: LFC TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
I got curious so I asked this question on Apex facebook page.

This is from their facebook page.


My question to

Apex Ammunition on their Facebook site.


"I hear all the claims....lets hear the facts. What's the actual weight of a TSS size 9 or 10 pellet ?"


Apex Ammunition's reply to me...Quote

"9's weigh 1.2grs. 9.5's weigh 1gr.

9's are the perfect TSS pellet size. More energy than lead 4's and equal energy to hevi shot 5's".


My reply to Apex...

"A lead #4 pellet weighs 3.30 grains....a lead #7 shot weighs 1.50 grains....both substantially more weight than the smaller TSS pellet. Energy is figured by computing weight and velocity. There is no way a #9 TSS pellet weighing a third of a #4 lead can have more energy than a lead #4 shot moving at the same velocity.....fact is a lead #7 has more energy than a TSS #9 size shot moving at equal velocity".

I was quickly shown the door.....

Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
A projectile carries energy based on weight and velocity...a #4 carries way more energy than a smaller lighter weight TSS pellet.

TSS can't be pushed to the velocity lead can because of pressures caused because it doesn't give any.

There's a thing called energy transfer...

The TSS depends not on energy transfer but on the hope that it will poke a bunch of small holes in something vital.

Most any choke will shoot a bunch of small pellets. Usually not so with the bigger shot unless it's coming out of a Winchester Longbeard.

Federal ammo and all the others ammo companies are sucking hind teet with the bigger shot loads coming from Winchester...that's why they're pushing the small shot...pretty easy to see if you've been watching.

The shot lock technology in Winchester Longbeards makes most any choke/gun combination look pretty good.

My question to you, have you tried TSS #9? In either a 12 or 20? I have, in a 20, for the first time last year. The performance is undeniable. The range, the penetration, the patterns, the stuff works. Doesn't mean nothing else works, just means there's another tool available. And held in hand, no scale, a 3" 20 gauge 1-1/2oz #9 TSS is noticeably heavier than a 3" 20 gauge 1-1/4oz #5 Winchester LongbeardXR. More than the 1/4oz difference in payload. I know that's not scientific, just an observation. The performance of TSS in a 20 gauge has kept my 10 and 12 gauges in the safe when I go out.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
I shot the hevi shot mixed load for a couple years I don't want to pick small pellets out of my turkey meat.
The 2 toms I shot last year had zero pellets in any of the meat areas. Both at +/- 40 yards. Their heads and necks were a completely different story. Not saying that can't happen, just didn't on the 2 last year. This year could be a different story. I too listed to, and read, guys accounts of TSS shot. Sounded like guys and their 6.5CM's. But I finally tried it and was very impressed by it. You still have to do what you have to do to kill a turkey, that doesn't change.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
I've never tried heavy shot nor TSS. Winchester XX #5 has always worked well for me. I shot the last of my XX and ended up buying several boxes of Longbeard XR in 3" and 3.5". The stuff patterns exceptionally well. So far I've patterned it in my Winchester SX4 with a XF choke, Browning A5 with a Kicks turkey choke, and my Browning Maxus II with a full choke. I'm getting super dense patterns at 30 yards and very good kill patterns to 50. As well as XX has performed, and as promising as XR looks, I have no desire to try TSS. The cost alone is something like 3 to 5Xs the cost of Longbread XR, which is already expensive enough. $50-80 for 5 TSS 3.5" #7 shells (depending on the source) versus $27 for 10 XR 3.5" #5 shells. That's insane.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
I have shot turkeys with lead #5, Hevi #6, Hevi 7's and TSS #9. All will kill turkeys, pick what you like and rock on.
Posted By: roverboy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
The price of TSS is freaking insane. I shoot Longbeards in #4 and #5 and have killed birds at 40+ several times. I used to get on a turkey hunting forum that acted like it was a mortal sin to kill birds at more than 40 yards. But, most of the pricks on there loved TSS. WTF! I posted on there that I can kill birds at 40 yards easy with Longbeards. Why do I need TSS. Nobody responded at all to my post. I really wanted them to.
You're nuts roverboy! Lol! Like talkin about crossbows in an archery forum! My opinion has always been, use whatever you want and can afford. Up to you whether it works or not.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Steel is less dense than lead, so it is a given steel pellets need to be larger for the same effect..
TSS is more dense than lead, so conversely TSS pellets can be smaller for the same effect.

And before you were shown the door...I'm sure they mentioned density.

ABOUT TUNGSTEN
Lead has a density of 11.34g/cc giving it more inertia and energy at impact than steel shot which comes in at 7.86g/cc. ... Alternative non-toxic alloys have been created with densities as high as 13-15 g/cc. None, however, have ever come close to our TSS, which has the ultimate density of 18.1 g/cc.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?

Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge


Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67


Contemplating these numbers will lead you down all sorts of paths regarding the relative merits of TSS. You can make of these what you'd like, but here is one take:

Individual #9 TSS and #4 chilled lead pellets are as above @ 60 yards in terms of lethality. The density of TSS allows you to have 267% more pellets per shot charge, or to shoot lighter/faster charges (increasing energy), or both, or duplexing with steel loads, or, or or ...






Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
This might be a good time to add this:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Interesting. That chart has "Steel 4" through a Full or Extra Full choke. Most choke tube makers explicitly warn not to shoot steel through a full choke or tighter tube.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Originally Posted by RickBin
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?

Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge


Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67


Contemplating these numbers will lead you down all sorts of paths regarding the relative merits of TSS. You can make of these what you'd like, but here is one take:

Individual #9 TSS and #4 chilled lead pellets are as above @ 60 yards in terms of lethality. The density of TSS allows you to have 267% more pellets per shot charge, or to shoot lighter/faster charges (increasing energy), or both, or duplexing with steel loads, or, or or ...




What I take is you get almost the same penetration with a 9 TSS (1.67) vs a lead 4 (1.72) and you most likely get more hits on target due to the increased number of shot in the TSS. The cumulative effect being you hit the target with more energy. Reason being the increased density of TSS.

Compare TSS 9's to lead 5's or 6's and the advantage becomes greater. TSS 9's and Lead 4's seem to be equal pellet vs pellet. However TSS 9's are superior to lead 5's and 6's...pellet to pellet.
Posted By: Teal Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Originally Posted by battue
Originally Posted by RickBin
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?

Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge


Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67


Contemplating these numbers will lead you down all sorts of paths regarding the relative merits of TSS. You can make of these what you'd like, but here is one take:

Individual #9 TSS and #4 chilled lead pellets are as above @ 60 yards in terms of lethality. The density of TSS allows you to have 267% more pellets per shot charge, or to shoot lighter/faster charges (increasing energy), or both, or duplexing with steel loads, or, or or ...




What I take is you get almost the same penetration with a 9 TSS (1.67) vs a lead 4 (1.72) and you most likely get more hits on target due to the increased number of shot in the TSS. The cumulative effect being you hit the target with more energy. Reason being the increased density of TSS.

Compare TSS 9's to lead 5's or 6's and the advantage becomes greater. TSS 9's and Lead 4's seem to be equal pellet vs pellet. However TSS 9's are superior to lead 5's and 6's...pellet to pellet.



Like getting run over by 5 cars instead of a single pickup...
Posted By: Rickshaw Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Originally Posted by RickBin
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?

Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge


Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67


Contemplating these numbers will lead you down all sorts of paths regarding the relative merits of TSS. You can make of these what you'd like, but here is one take:

Individual #9 TSS and #4 chilled lead pellets are as above @ 60 yards in terms of lethality. The density of TSS allows you to have 267% more pellets per shot charge, or to shoot lighter/faster charges (increasing energy), or both, or duplexing with steel loads, or, or or ...








I like 267% more pellets. More pellets = more dead.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
I don't claim to know all the math and Rick did a fine job explaining it but I know TSS works. That is not to say that lead, Hevi shot, Heavy weight or whatever else will not work, but to say TSS will not kill a turkey cleanly and quickly is just wrong.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Originally Posted by Teal

Like getting run over by 5 cars instead of a single pickup...


Excellent analogy....Well done...
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
I'd like to try it, and probably will eventually, even given its extraordinarily high price, and given the fact that I now have enough XR to last me several seasons.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I'd like to try it, and probably will eventually, even given its extraordinarily high price, and given the fact that I now have enough XR to last me several seasons.


Apex 9’s in a 28 gauge stone Pheasants. Although the same can be said for Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 5’s and a center point.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Originally Posted by battue
Originally Posted by Teal

Like getting run over by 5 cars instead of a single pickup...


Excellent analogy....Well done...


Getting run over by a big MAC pulling a load of pulp wood versus getting tagged by 5 soccer moms driving sub compacts is a better analogy
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/03/22
Originally Posted by RickBin
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?

Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge


Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67


Contemplating these numbers will lead you down all sorts of paths regarding the relative merits of TSS. You can make of these what you'd like, but here is one take:

Individual #9 TSS and #4 chilled lead pellets are as above @ 60 yards in terms of lethality. The density of TSS allows you to have 267% more pellets per shot charge, or to shoot lighter/faster charges (increasing energy), or both, or duplexing with steel loads, or, or or ..



As you stated foot pounds of energy with a lead #4 pellet is alot greater...not sure how they came up.with "energy density" ?

If it comes down to one pellet killing the turkey my money is riding on a #4 copper plated lesd

One thing TSS offers for sure is alot more shot to pick out of the meat should your aim get off....

Some guys claim total penetration with TSS....guys with cracked teeth will argue differently.

Ps...I'm shooting a 2 oz load of #4s.



Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by battue
Steel is less dense than lead, so it is a given steel pellets need to be larger for the same effect..
TSS is more dense than lead, so conversely TSS pellets can be smaller for the same effect.

And before you were shown the door...I'm sure they mentioned density.

ABOUT TUNGSTEN
Lead has a density of 11.34g/cc giving it more inertia and energy at impact than steel shot which comes in at 7.86g/cc. ... Alternative non-toxic alloys have been created with densities as high as 13-15 g/cc. None, however, have ever come close to our TSS, which has the ultimate density of 18.1 g/cc.


Density is a lot like BC....neither mean much with a shotgun pellet.
Posted By: Andy3 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I've killed about a dozen turkeys with TSS #9s, and watched buddies shoot about that many more. Ranges from 15 to over 60 yards....all birds dropped at the shot, none ran off. A few things, other than the density, help the federal loads.

The flight control wad doesn't separate from the shot, until about the 20-25 yard mark. Out to that point, it is basically a slug....or, as my hunting buddy says, "it's like you have a 25 yard barrel, on your gun". This helps to account for those insanely dense 40 yard patterns, along with the enormous pellet count. Also, a good argument for a double barrel gun.....one barrel with TSS and one with a more open choke and nickel #5s, for closer shots. It's too easy to miss those head shots, when the shot is still in the wad!

The other thing is the small diameter of the pellets. Less resistance while in flight, and when going through the bird. I have not seen any feather draw, while cleaning the birds, and most pellets, in the body, exit. The crop and the neck will catch them, due to the "rubber like" material. But, they typically exit through the body, even at extended ranges. Plus the hardness of tungsten keeps the shot from deforming.....results in better patterns, more broken bones, along with more exit holes.

The only drawback, that I've found, is the few pellets that stay in the meat are a real danger to your teeth!

Andy3
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by battue
Steel is less dense than lead, so it is a given steel pellets need to be larger for the same effect..
TSS is more dense than lead, so conversely TSS pellets can be smaller for the same effect.

And before you were shown the door...I'm sure they mentioned density.

ABOUT TUNGSTEN
Lead has a density of 11.34g/cc giving it more inertia and energy at impact than steel shot which comes in at 7.86g/cc. ... Alternative non-toxic alloys have been created with densities as high as 13-15 g/cc. None, however, have ever come close to our TSS, which has the ultimate density of 18.1 g/cc.


Density is a lot like BC....neither mean much with a shotgun pellet.


Right—-penetration means nothing with a shotgun pellet. 🤣
And increased pellets on target are a waste.
Hilarious!!!!!
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
After a certain point....

Ps...if you're going to argue a point don't just copy and paste from the TSS gospel handbook.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by Andy3
I've killed about a dozen turkeys with TSS #9s, and watched buddies shoot about that many more. Ranges from 15 to over 60 yards....all birds dropped at the shot, none ran off. A few things, other than the density, help the federal loads.

The flight control wad doesn't separate from the shot, until about the 20-25 yard mark. Out to that point, it is basically a slug....or, as my hunting buddy says, "it's like you have a 25 yard barrel, on your gun". This helps to account for those insanely dense 40 yard patterns, along with the enormous pellet count. Also, a good argument for a double barrel gun.....one barrel with TSS and one with a more open choke and nickel #5s, for closer shots. It's too easy to miss those head shots, when the shot is still in the wad!

The other thing is the small diameter of the pellets. Less resistance while in flight, and when going through the bird. I have not seen any feather draw, while cleaning the birds, and most pellets, in the body, exit. The crop and the neck will catch them, due to the "rubber like" material. But, they typically exit through the body, even at extended ranges. Plus the hardness of tungsten keeps the shot from deforming.....results in better patterns, more broken bones, along with more exit holes.

The only drawback, that I've found, is the few pellets that stay in the meat are a real danger to your teeth!

Andy3


What about the pellets you miss and swallow...

We've all all heard the saying "he's got lead in his azz" what do you call the guy with TSS in his azz ?

My experience patterning the Federal shells with the fight control wad is they patterned good but they sometimes steer the pattern off target.

The "enormous pellet count" of tss is thanks to the enourmos amount of number #9 pellets in the shell....

#9 pellets are so small they're probably putting holes in the paper that the human eye cant see.

I tried to look at a number 9 pellet once and I had to put on my readers just to see it.

I googled "energy density" and I'm wondering what super duper shotgun physicist tied that term to a shot pellet.


Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by battue
Originally Posted by Teal

Like getting run over by 5 cars instead of a single pickup...


Excellent analogy....Well done...


Getting run over by a big MAC pulling a load of pulp wood versus getting tagged by 5 soccer moms driving sub compacts is a better analogy


Well, we all have our preferences, so let's follow this logic. Prefer 167-ish pellets in the pattern with lots of energy? Fine. Take a look:


Chilled lead #4 1 1/4 oz (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72 inches



TSS #7.5 7/8 oz (187 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 696
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.20
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 310.2
Gel Penetration: 2.67 inches

OR (1.67in. at 96 YARDS)


There's your MAC truck load, except you extended the lethal range from 60 to 96 yards, picked up 11% more pellets, you have much less recoil, and you might notice, you can do this out of a 20 or even a 28 gauge now smile


Posted By: Rickshaw Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
What do you call the guy with tss in his ass? Probably ded.

TSS isn’t the only thing dense around here.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
After a certain point....

Ps...if you're going to argue a point don't just copy and paste from the TSs gospel.



Weak…

PS: Especially when the quote was facts accepted by the industry. And verifiable on the periodic table. Laughing again…😂
I don't know many turkeys killed with #4 lead shot out of a 410 at 40 yards or so but I know of several birds killed with TSS #9s and #9.5s. I think that is where the TSS really come into play. With a 3.5" 12ga you can kill a turkey at 40 yards with about any choke and any shot size. What TSS shot have done is extended the range of 20 gauges and made 28ga and 410s a viable turkey gun. I watched 6 gobblers from 8 yards to 42 yards last year taken with 410s you better be spot on close up because its super tight.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
"96 yards"...if a feller shoots turkeys that far he needs his head examined.
Sad thing is someone will read that and believe they can shoot turkeys that far.

Rick I'd still like to know the mathematical equation for figuring energy density ?
.
Originally Posted by RickBin
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by battue
Originally Posted by Teal

Like getting run over by 5 cars instead of a single pickup...


Excellent analogy....Well done...


Getting run over by a big MAC pulling a load of pulp wood versus getting tagged by 5 soccer moms driving sub compacts is a better analogy


Well, we all have our preferences, so let's follow this logic. Prefer 167-ish pellets in the pattern with lots of energy? Fine. Take a look:


Chilled lead #4 1 1/4 oz (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72 inches



TSS #7.5 7/8 oz (187 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 696
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.20
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 310.2
Gel Penetration: 2.67 inches

OR (1.67in. at 96 YARDS)


There's your MAC truck load, except you extended the lethal range from 60 to 96 yards, picked up 11% more pellets, you have much less recoil, and you might notice, you can do this out of a 20 or even a 28 gauge now smile




And there you go! I was handloading TSS long before I was buying it in factory ammo. Turkeys, ducks, geese - it doesn’t matter, the results speak for themselves. Once you make the switch, you’ll never go back.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Give it up… you were showed the door for a second time…😂
I can’t explain the mathematical equation. Several years ago a buddy was at the house. He came over to pattern his gun. We got into the debate of my 20 gauge load of TSS vs his 12 gauge Long Beard load. To be fair, he was shooting 6’s and I was shooting 8.5’s. We put up a piece of barn tin. I can’t remember if it was 40, 50 or 60 yards. His Long Beard dented the metal and about 50% of my TSS 8.5’s penetrated the metal.

Another reason I think the TSS kills more effectively is the density of the pattern. Even at 30 yards, #4’s leave some gaps in a target the size of a turkey head. #9 TSS covers the target in a spectacular fashion.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by RickBin
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?

Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge


Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67


Contemplating these numbers will lead you down all sorts of paths regarding the relative merits of TSS. You can make of these what you'd like, but here is one take:

Individual #9 TSS and #4 chilled lead pellets are as above @ 60 yards in terms of lethality. The density of TSS allows you to have 267% more pellets per shot charge, or to shoot lighter/faster charges (increasing energy), or both, or duplexing with steel loads, or, or or ..



As you stated foot pounds of energy with a lead #4 pellet is alot greater...not sure how they came up.with "energy density" ?

If it comes down to one pellet killing the turkey my money is riding on a #4 copper plated lesd

One thing TSS offers for sure is alot more shot to pick out of the meat should your aim get off....

Some guys claim total penetration with TSS....guys with cracked teeth will argue differently.

Ps...I'm shooting a 2 oz load of #4s.








1] OK, let's roll with that "foot pounds of energy is a lot greater" POV and leave aside the counterarguments for now. In comparing lead to TSS as a basis for turkey hunting (not my application but ...), there are lots of other sizes of TSS. See above analysis with a #7.5 TSS load that walks all over the #4 lead load from an exterior ballistics POV.

2] I am not a turkey hunter, but the scenarios I have seen where turkeys are headshot with a shotgun leads me to believe those situations where "one pellet" makes "the" difference is pretty minimal (I am more than willing to be shown differently), and of course, can further be reduced by using a TSS shot charge with LOTS more pellets per charge weight.

3] Actually, in my experience, this is not true (again, I don't hunt turkeys). I find that TSS is typically a pass-through. Where I find pellets is in birds I shoot with steel/TSS duplex loads, and they are predictably steel pellets. Either way, pellets on teeth is not good no matter what material it is, and steel, and the various heavys are very hard.

4] Please don't make me show you what kind of a load I could make with a 2-oz charge of TSS!

4A]

2 oz of plated #4 lead shot ~ 273 pellets.

2 oz of #7.5 TSS ~ 427 pellets.

Or if you wanted ~ 270 pellets / charge you could shoot 1 1/4 oz of #7.5 TSS (267 pellets) instead of 2 oz #4 lead.

Even if we kept the fps equal at 1000 fps, the #4 load will penetrate gel to 2 inches to 36.7 yards, and the #7.5 TSS will do the same ... at 59.6 yards. SO already the TSS load is waxing the lead, even before I step that 1 1/4 TSS load to 1309 fps, and yes, I have the proofed load data for that load right in front of me ....

.... which kicks up the range to 74.6 yards. smile
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by battue
Steel is less dense than lead, so it is a given steel pellets need to be larger for the same effect..
TSS is more dense than lead, so conversely TSS pellets can be smaller for the same effect.

And before you were shown the door...I'm sure they mentioned density.

ABOUT TUNGSTEN
Lead has a density of 11.34g/cc giving it more inertia and energy at impact than steel shot which comes in at 7.86g/cc. ... Alternative non-toxic alloys have been created with densities as high as 13-15 g/cc. None, however, have ever come close to our TSS, which has the ultimate density of 18.1 g/cc.


Density is a lot like BC....neither mean much with a shotgun pellet.


No disrespect, but this couldn't be further from the truth. Density is exactly why steel<bismuth<lead<HW13<HW15<TSS, or why at 100 fps you'd much prefer to be hit by a ping pong ball than a golf ball.

Density lets you pack more/smaller or same#/heavier pellets into the same (or smaller) volume, and is why I can drop gauges and gun weight and have more lethality than a standard 12 shooting lead.
...
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
After a certain point....

Ps...if you're going to argue a point don't just copy and paste from the TSs gospel.


KPY is a shotshell ballistics program that calculates ballistics for 16 different types of shotgun pellet materials in 24 sizes.

It just incorporates the physics (density, sizes, weights, etc.) of TSS and most other shot types into its calculations.

You are free to doubt its accuracy, of course.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
"96 yards"...if a feller shoots turkeys that far he needs his head examined.
Sad thing is someone will read that and believe they can shoot turkeys that far.

Rick I'd still like to know the mathematical equation for figuring energy density ?
.


And now you see why I posted Tom Roster's chart.

This is way down the road and really not worth the time going through if you remain convinced that TSS is all smoke and mirrors, but JIC and/or for others that may be reading :

Yes, 96 yards is a ridiculous range. You will likely be pattern-limited well before that. Roster's data is good (It's mainly all we have, too) but it is waterfowl/steel-oriented. Still it is a good guide of the pattern densities we'd like to see to get multiple hits on species of known sizes to assure quick and sure lethality and avoid cripples. And dabbling in these waters will require you to pattern YOUR gun, which is anything but inexpensive with TSS!

That said, TSS tends to pattern tight ... and jaw-dropping shots are to be expected when your previous frame of reference is lead-shot performance, not to speak of steel. This comment is mine alone and draws upon 2 hunting seasons (one in progress) of steady use on flying birds ... with a 20 and 28 ga.

Seems to me turkey hunting would lend itself to some pretty unreal opportunities to make longer shots ... each situation limited by shooter skill and/or PROVEN ballistic performance at the patterning board.

Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I've heard the ping pong golf ball comparison many times....you'd think the tss guys could come up with a better comparison.
A golf ball and an ice pick would be closer

Judging from what you've said I take it you're a waterfowl hunter.?

Duck are ducks and turkeys are turkeys.

Turkeys...I've killed turkeys with 4x5x7 Hevi shot. Ducks and turkeys with Bismuth #4s.

Lead #4s, #5s, and #6s out of a 12 ga. 4# shot out of a 20.and a 12 ga. and #4 Bismuth and lead shot out of 2 vintage 10 gauges.

A turkey is harder to kill than a duck. You break a turkeys wing and he might run off at 35 mph. You knock him down with small shot and he might get up and run or fly off.

Chop a turkeys head off with an axe and he'll run around a while..

I talk with alot of guys all over the country most won't post their horror stories with TSS on the internet....they run the gambit "I knocked him down twice, three times and he got away"....to "my pattern was so small I blew a hole in him and had to chase him down and shoot him again".

Contrary to popular belief it doesn't take a zillion pellets to kill a turkey.

Until Winchester came out with the Shot Lock Technology we never had ammo that shot #4 pellets very good.

Then the turkey hunting stunt men came on the scene that think they're cool because they shot a turkey with a small guage like a .410....everybody doesn't think they are cool or that they're some super duper turkey hunter.

Hopefully the Game and Fish will come around and outlaw some of the crazy nonsense that is spoiling our sport...
Like gobbler decoys, hunting out of enclosed blinds and hunting turkeys with children's guns

Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by battue
Give it up… you were showed the door for a second time…😂

That was a matter of speach....the guy at Apex pm'd me and offered to load me some bigger shot but I declined.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
I've heard the ping pong golf ball comparison many times....you'd think the tss guys could come up with a better comparison.
A golf ball and an ice pick would be closer

Judging from what you've said I take it you're a waterfowl hunter.?

Duck are ducks and turkeys are turkeys.

Turkeys...I've killed turkeys with 4x5x7 Hevi shot. Ducks and turkeys with Bismuth #4s.

Lead #4s, #5s, and #6s out of a 12 ga. 4# shot out of a 20.and a 12 ga. and #4 Bismuth and lead shot out of 2 vintage 10 gauges.

A turkey is harder to kill than a duck. You break a turkeys wing and he might run off at 35 mph. You knock him down with small shot and he might get up and run or fly off.

Chop a turkeys head off with an axe and he'll run around a while..

I talk with alot of guys all over the country most won't post their horror stories with TSS on the internet....they run the gambit "I knocked him down twice, three times and he got away"....to "my pattern was so small I blew a hole in him and had to chase him down and shoot him again".

Contrary to popular belief it doesn't take a zillion pellets to kill a turkey.

Until Winchester came out with the Shot Lock Technology we never had ammo that shot #4 pellets very good.

Then the turkey hunting stunt men came on the scene that think they're cool because they shot a turkey with a small guage like a .410....everybody doesn't think they are cool or that they're some super duper turkey hunter.

Hopefully the Game and Fish will come around and outlaw some of the crazy nonsense that is spoiling our sport...
Like gobbler decoys, hunting out of enclosed blinds and hunting turkeys with children's guns



1] Maybe you have heard the comparison many times because it is appropriate and illustrative. Same size objects? Hit me with the lighter (less dense). Same weight objects? Hit me with the larger (less dense). EVERY TIME.

Nobody shoots icepick-shaped projectiles anyway.

2] I am an upland hunter, primarily. Lots of pheasant and quail. My state mandates non-toxic for all hunting, so I had to leave my tried-and-true longtime lead loads behind for in-state hunting. Thus my foray into TSS and duplex loads.

3] "A turkey is harder to kill than a duck.”. Perfect. Now keep that mindset for the following.

#4 TSS shot is orders of magnitude more lethal than #4 lead shot. Cut and dried. Head-to-head, lead and TSS simply do not compare in terms of lethality.

That is why we compare widely different shot sizes for the same applications, because the difference in lethality is so stark head-to-head, that it opens up options.

In fact, there is SO much latitude here, that you can draw the line wherever YOU want. Don't like 7.5 TSS because they are "too small, or yada yada?" Fine. Try 7's. Or 6's. Or 5's. Find your sweet spot. But be clear, at virtually no point can you design a load with lead shot that cannot be significantly and most often dramatically improved upon with TSS. And yes, often in a smaller gauge.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by battue
Give it up… you were showed the door for a second time…😂

That was a matter of speach....the guy at Apex pm'd me and offered to load me some bigger shot but I declined.


I know, but only now did you bring that up. What, you were saving it?

Just like your anonymous acquaintances who won’t go on the internet..not a one of them. Only you are brave enough to stand up to the TSS internet bullies.

“I know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows the real truth. However he won’t come out and say….”

Don’t quit know, keep it coming, what you lack in fact you make up in humor and BS..😂




Monty Python is going through my head. "Is this going to be a 2 minute argument, or a 5 minute argument"! (In my best British accent. Lol!)

Since using TSS for the first time last year, I'm sold on it. Look at all the charts and tables you want, whatever, and then use it. If there were only 10 and 12 gauge shotguns, maybe not, but TSS has incredibly upped the game using sub-bores. And if you don't want to use it, don't. But don't discount the merits of something you've never used.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC

Then the turkey hunting stunt men came on the scene that think they're cool because they shot a turkey with a small guage like a .410....everybody doesn't think they are cool or that they're some super duper turkey hunter.



I dunno. I just got done putting 10 rounds of 3.5" 00 buck and 10 rounds of 3.5" #5 through two of my guns a few days ago. At 15 rounds I was hurting so bad I had to force myself to pattern the last 5. I'm nursing a visible six inch butt pad shaped bruise on my shoulder right now. A sub-guage is sounding pretty damned good right about now.

Seriously, though. 2 oz turkey loads are about the heaviest recoiling shotshells one can fire. (My 10 gauge didn't kick like my 12 g 3.5 inchers.) A gun firing an effective load that doesn't crush one's shoulder has a helluva lot of merit.

Listen, TSS shot is not new. It's proven. Arguing its effectiveness at this point just seems silly. It works. My main problems is cost: TSS shotshells are immenely expensive. Up to $10 a shot and over. But that aside, they do work, and very well. But spending $50 to $100 to properly pattern a single gun with 5 to 10 rounds of TSS is a little off-putting.
---

So, a question about chokes: what constrictions are TSS shooters using? Just the same chokes you were using for lead? Most choke makers recommend a tighter constriction as shot size gets smaller and #9 is pretty small, but it would seem that TSS might impose the same cautions of tight chokes that steel does. I don't know because I've only ever shot lead.
I shoot a little more open choke with TSS. I don’t go tighter with constriction. When I started playing with TSS in a 20 gauge, I assumed something close to .555 was perfect. It wasn’t….now I’m shooting .575 mostly. I still have a .562 that patterns great, but I just like what I see from the .575 for normal turkey ranges.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I'm shooting a .680 in my A5. It's a little more open, optimized for 3.5" #5.
I think Browning and Winchester’s prefer a choke with a more open constriction anyway. That 680 should be perfect!
I’ve done a bunch of patterning with several chokes in 2 different guns with shells from virtually all the TSS manufacturers. (All 20ga). I’ve not found any discernible trend. For better or worse you just need to shoot some different combinations to see what works best in your gun. And don’t forget to try the factory full choke

The good news is that getting 250+ hits in a 10” circle at 40 yards is relatively easy. At that point the question become how much denser do you want your patterns to be and what does that mean at 15 yards? My best combination puts 365 in the 10” at a lasered 40 yards. I’m planning to shoot it at 15 and 60 yards to see what it looks like before hunting it. Fwiw I don’t shoot past 45-50 yards

I’ve had great success in terms of the effectiveness of TSS but don’t try shots I wouldn’t have tried when I shot a 12 with LBs. I do find some pellets when dressing them but not as many as with lead. I’ve found a couple in cooked meat but fortunately haven’t chomped down on one yet
PS - the 20ga is a dream to carry. And with TSS is infinitely more effective than even the best patterning 12s with lead
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I can tell you, I have shot barn roofing tin at 40 yards with both lead #6 and TSS #9 shot. The lead #6 poked about 3 holes in the tin and dented it. The TSS #9 poked about 50 or 60 holes in it and made much bigger dents.
The fact remains that 1) you have way more hits per square inch with #9 TSS than you do with lead #4, 5 or 6 shot, and you can do this with less oz. of shot.
I pattern my guns and know what I can do and what the pattern looks like at 50 yards. Do I shoot birds that far, no I don't, I do not shoot a bird any further out than I would with any other type of shell. I like them in around 20 yards or so if I had to pick a yardage to shoot them at.
Why do I shoot TSS, because of 2 reasons, 1) IT WORKS very well and with more hits per square inch than lead (due to the pellet count) it gives super clean quick kills. You do not have to jump up and run stand on the birds head like you do with lead or some other less effective shot type. 2) I can reduce the shot load which reduces recoil. This is kind of a big deal to me as I have had 2 shoulder surgeries and don't want a 3rd one.

LFC, you have brought this subject up before and beat this horse. You have been told the truth about TSS and yet you still stir the pot about it not killing birds. So be it, that is your right but at the same time you admitted before that you have never shot TSS. You sure seem to know a lot about what it will and will not do for someone that has never even shot it. All I can say about your buddies that will not come on the innerweb and have had to shoot birds 2 or more times with TSS and still had them run off, they did not shoot them where they should have. Maybe they did not pattern their gun or yanked the trigger or ?

After calling in a bird for my friend that I hunt with on his farm and watching him miss a big tom at less than 25 yards 3 shots with lead shells, I made him pattern his gun, it shot way off and he no longer hunts with that gun. He would have missed that bird with whatever shell he had been using.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Okay, forgive me, I've never really studied TSS shot since my Winchester rounds have always worked well for me. But I'm intrigued now, and intrigue tends to make me spend money. So I'm interested in the following:

So, for a given shell, in my case, a 3" or 3.5" 12g shell loaded with #5 lead shot. The same shell loaded with #7 or #9 TSS will have significantly more pellets - a no-brainer. That's an advantage if penetration is at least the same, and if at least the same percentage of the shotload hits the target, which both appear to be the case. But since I've found my lead loads perfectly adequate for turkeys, I'm less interested in the amount of shot hitting the target, than the potential recoil reduction by moving down a gauge.

There must be a point where a 20 gauge 3" TSS shell is putting at least as many pellets on target as a 12 gauge 3" lead shell loaded with #5. In other words, there must be a smaller gauge TSS equivalet to a larger gauge lead round. If I can get as many pellets of #7 TSS out of a 20 gauge on target as I can with a 12 gauge 3 or 3.5" lead round, with a corresponding reduction in recoil (and a lower price 20 g TSS shell versus a 12 g TSS shgell), then both the economics, performance and comfort become more attractive.

That's what I find intriguing about TSS. Getting my current 12g lead performance out of a 20g. Where's the point of equivallency?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
10Glocks
I went from a 12 ga to a 20 ga. I was shooting 1 7/8 oz lead shells out of the 12 ga and using #5 shot. I went to a 20 ga. and went down to a 1 1/2 oz TSS shell. I have been loading and shooting TSS for a long time. Back when I started loading, that was the only way to get TSS shells was to load your own. Recoil is less, hits in the "magic 10" circle at 40 yards" have almost tripled and birds are dead right there.
Any type of shot (lead, Hevi, Heavy Weight, etc.) will kill a bird, no question. I want to do it as quickly as humanely as possible. In my mind the more hits I can have in the brain and neck is the way to do that.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by ShortMagFan
PS - the 20ga is a dream to carry. And with TSS is infinitely more effective than even the best patterning 12s with lead

You know what they say about opinions....
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by pullit
10Glocks
I went from a 12 ga to a 20 ga. I was shooting 1 7/8 oz lead shells out of the 12 ga and using #5 shot. I went to a 20 ga. and went down to a 1 1/2 oz TSS shell. I have been loading and shooting TSS for a long time. Back when I started loading, that was the only way to get TSS shells was to load your own. Recoil is less, hits in the "magic 10" circle at 40 yards" have almost tripled and birds are dead right there.
Any type of shot (lead, Hevi, Heavy Weight, etc.) will kill a bird, no question. I want to do it as quickly as humanely as possible. In my mind the more hits I can have in the brain and neck is the way to do that.


The magic 10" circle.....


For years I was a 10" circle pellet counter....

Then one day I just woke up from this long nightmare of drawing circles and counting pellet holes in paper and figured am I not smart enough on my own to just look at a target and know it will kill a turkey.

Now I refer to them as circle jerkers and I'm free at last...
Posted By: Teal Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by ShortMagFan
PS - the 20ga is a dream to carry. And with TSS is infinitely more effective than even the best patterning 12s with lead

You know what they say about opinions....



Oh the irony...
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Rick take a #4 pellet in one hand and a #9 TSs in the other.

Open both hands and tell me if you see a golf ball in one hand and a ping pong ball in the other ?
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Density becomes you....odd that you don't get the TSS correlation.

Then again, trolls are trolls and as long as they are trolling life is fine... In your case you chum a little also...A chumming trol....:D
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by LFC

Then the turkey hunting stunt men came on the scene that think they're cool because they shot a turkey with a small guage like a .410....everybody doesn't think they are cool or that they're some super duper turkey hunter.



I dunno. I just got done putting 10 rounds of 3.5" 00 buck and 10 rounds of 3.5" #5 through two of my guns a few days ago. At 15 rounds I was hurting so bad I had to force myself to pattern the last 5. I'm nursing a visible six inch butt pad shaped bruise on my shoulder right now. A sub-guage is sounding pretty damned good right about now.

Seriously, though. 2 oz turkey loads are about the heaviest recoiling shotshells one can fire. (My 10 gauge didn't kick like my 12 g 3.5 inchers.) A gun firing an effective load that doesn't crush one's shoulder has a helluva lot of merit.

Listen, TSS shot is not new. It's proven. Arguing its effectiveness at this point just seems silly. It works. My main problems is cost: TSS shotshells are immenely expensive. Up to $10 a shot and over. But that aside, they do work, and very well. But spending $50 to $100 to properly pattern a single gun with 5 to 10 rounds of TSS is a little off-putting.
---

So, a question about chokes: what constrictions are TSS shooters using? Just the same chokes you were using for lead? Most choke makers recommend a tighter constriction as shot size gets smaller and #9 is pretty small, but it would seem that TSS might impose the same cautions of tight chokes that steel does. I don't know because I've only ever shot lead.


There are ways around recoil....

I been using a P.a.s.t. recoil sheild for years shooting high powdered rifles on a bench rest.

With a big gun if you dont have a P.a.s.t. I have draped my Boyt gun case over my shoulder.

In a hunting situation you never feel the recoil.....I like getting the chit kicked out of me.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by battue
Density becomes you....odd that you don't get the TSS correlation.

Then again, trolls are trolls and as long as they are trolling life is fine... laugh


So now you call me a troll because I dont agree with you ?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I no longer count holes either, but I did at one time and what I found was Quantitative data that shows I get almost 3 times the hit in the circle.
The shooting of roofing tin is a "rednecks ballistic gel" to prove penetration.
I did not believe all the hype at first either, I had a friend give me a few shells to try and they sat on my shelf for a couple of years as I could not wrap my head around #9 shot (I shot skeet for many many years and I know what lead #9 will and will not do).
TSS is not lead and after my second shoulder surgery I finally broke down to give them a try, I have not looked back.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC

So now you call me a troll because I dont agree with you ?


Defilnitely no......
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Yep.plain as day....you called me a dense troll.

Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by battue
Density becomes you....odd that you don't get the TSS correlation.

Then again, trolls are trolls and as long as they are trolling life is fine... laugh


So now you call me a troll because I dont agree with you ?


First you call me dense then you call me a troll....do you even turkey hunt ?
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Quote
First you call me dense then you call me a troll....do you even turkey hunt ?


Occasionally, Turkey's are mainly targets of opportunity in my hunting...However, that fact has no bearing on the first two...

Nor is it necessary to Turkey hunt to understand the hunting benefits of TSS..Like Rick who uses TSS on Ducks-and politely handed you your ass, although if you read between the lines, the politeness was barely covered, I use TSS on Pheasants for the most part if the barrel steel is compatible.

Actually it may be too good for Pheasants as far as a dense pattern at the ranges they are normally shot...So may only use them for a needed second shot...


Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by battue
Like Rick who uses TSS on Ducks-and politely handed you your ass, although if you read between the lines, the politeness was barely covered.



Originally Posted by RickBin

I am an upland hunter, primarily. Lots of pheasant and quail. My state mandates non-toxic for all hunting, so I had to leave my tried-and-true longtime lead loads behind for in-state hunting. Thus my foray into TSS and duplex loads.


Better study up I thought Rick said he used it for upland hunting in a state that doesn't allow lead shot or even lead boolites....myself I would use Bismuth shot.

Originally Posted by battue

Occasionally, Turkey's are mainly targets of opportunity in my hunting...However, that fact has no bearing on the first two...


Turkeys are "targets of opportunity" a turkey hunter has more respect than to say that about a turkey....

Kinda what I figured....so would it be fair to say you are just trolling the turkey hunting section looking for a "target of opportunity" ?
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by pullit
I no longer count holes either, but I did at one time and what I found was data that shows I get almost 3 times the hit in the circle.


What does "Quantitative data" mean....I'm all for learning big words.
Posted By: roverboy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
You're nuts roverboy! Lol! Like talkin about crossbows in an archery forum! My opinion has always been, use whatever you want and can afford. Up to you whether it works or not.

I agree , use whatever you can afford or want to use. Me pesonally, why would I want to use TSS when what I've been using for the last 7 or 8 years has worked, with great sucess. In the smaller gauge shotguns, it's awesome and has put them in the game. When I started turkey hunting in the mid '90's, nobody used a .410, and not many used a 20 gauge. But, in a 12, which is what I use, I don't think you need it.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
That big 12 is heavy to tote and it kicks like hell....it kill on both ends. (Not a good choice for girly men).

I shoot a big heavy 12 gauge and wouldn't have it any other way.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by battue

Occasionally, Turkey's are mainly targets of opportunity in my hunting...However, that fact has no bearing on the first two...

Better study up I thought Rick said he used it for upland hunting.

Turkeys are "targets of opportunity" a turkey hunter has more respect than to say that about a turkey....

Kinda what I figured....so would it be fair to say you are just trolling the turkey hunting section looking for a "target of opportunity" ?



Squirrels, Rabbits, Grouse, an occasional Wood Duck and even Turkeys are often targets of opportunity..Which again has nothing to do with respect for any game..Except in the eyes of those who are dense...

So it not only wouldn't be fair... it would be wrong..You can't win for trying, but it most definitely is fun to watch laugh
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
One hard putt and you stuck your head up...

Fast on the quote you missed my edit....
Posted By: roverboy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
I've heard the ping pong golf ball comparison many times....you'd think the tss guys could come up with a better comparison.
A golf ball and an ice pick would be closer

Judging from what you've said I take it you're a waterfowl hunter.?

Duck are ducks and turkeys are turkeys.

Turkeys...I've killed turkeys with 4x5x7 Hevi shot. Ducks and turkeys with Bismuth #4s.

Lead #4s, #5s, and #6s out of a 12 ga. 4# shot out of a 20.and a 12 ga. and #4 Bismuth and lead shot out of 2 vintage 10 gauges.

A turkey is harder to kill than a duck. You break a turkeys wing and he might run off at 35 mph. You knock him down with small shot and he might get up and run or fly off.

Chop a turkeys head off with an axe and he'll run around a while..

I talk with alot of guys all over the country most won't post their horror stories with TSS on the internet....they run the gambit "I knocked him down twice, three times and he got away"....to "my pattern was so small I blew a hole in him and had to chase him down and shoot him again".

Contrary to popular belief it doesn't take a zillion pellets to kill a turkey.

Until Winchester came out with the Shot Lock Technology we never had ammo that shot #4 pellets very good.

Then the turkey hunting stunt men came on the scene that think they're cool because they shot a turkey with a small guage like a .410....everybody doesn't think they are cool or that they're some super duper turkey hunter.

Hopefully the Game and Fish will come around and outlaw some of the crazy nonsense that is spoiling our sport...
Like gobbler decoys, hunting out of enclosed blinds and hunting turkeys with children's guns

I agree, you brought up some interesting points.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by pullit
I no longer count holes either, but I did at one time and what I found was data that shows I get almost 3 times the hit in the circle.


What does "Quantitative data" mean....I'm all for learning big words.



Quantitative data deals with numbers and things you can measure objectively: dimensions such as height, width, and length. Temperature and humidity. Prices. Area and volume.

Bless your heart, try and keep up
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
To be fair, many of the turkeys I've killed in my lifetime were "targets of opportunity." Usually when deer and fall turkey seasons overlapped. I've killed as many turkeys with buckshot and, on occassion, rifled slugs, as I have during spring season.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by pullit
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by pullit
I no longer count holes either, but I did at one time and what I found was data that shows I get almost 3 times the hit in the circle.


What does "Quantitative data" mean....I'm all for learning big words.



Quantitative data deals with numbers and things you can measure objectively: dimensions such as height, width, and length. Temperature and humidity. Prices. Area and volume.

Bless your heart, try and keep up


You get that off the internet ?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
No, I am from the south, we say Bless your heart all the time
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22


Originally Posted by LFC
One hard putt and you stuck your head up...

Fast on the quote you missed my edit....


Your attempt at humor, is equally as dismal as your understanding the facts vs fiction...You are on a roll. laugh

(Actually just returned from the Dogs at the Vets and missed two edits...makes little difference.)
roverboy, mid 90's? Welcome to turkey hunting! Lol! I used to give Dwain Bland info for his books. Not really, but a good BS thread needs some good BS! My days of running around with a Remington SP-10 are over, the hills somehow have gotten steeper and longer. But I totally agree, TSS is what brings out the magic in a sub-bore. But as said, you still have to do what you have to do to kill a turkey.

I never used roof tin, used to use steel soup cans to test for energy.
.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I only said you were dense and a troll...

The "bless your heart" line is the one that cut deep....
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by pullit
No, I am from the south, we say Bless your heart all the time


I meant the definition of "Quantitative data".

Bless your heart.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I know what you meant...bless your heart
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
I used to give Dwain Bland info for his books.


Didn't you contribute to Michael Hanback, as well?


Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
My days of running around with a Remington SP-10 are over, the hills somehow have gotten steeper and longer.


The best patterning, softest shooting, turkey gun I ever had. I had a matte blued and walnut version with a 26" barrel and XX full choke. Always hunted with a Realtree Advantage stretchy gun sock over it. I alway had heard 10 g pounded you, but that 11lb gun put my Browning BPS 3.5" 12g to shame. It patterned better and was far soft shooting. I foolishly sold it and wish I never had. I've been contemplating a Browning Gold 10g, but it's just not the same.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Never shot a turkey with a 10 ga but have owned 3 or 4 of them. I duck hunted with them and always said I would rather shoot a 10 ga than a 12 ga 3.5" mag. any day. These days, I don't shoot a 10 or a 12 ga 3.5 mag.
Posted By: Cheesy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by RickBin
Familiar with KPY shotgun ballistics program?
Real quick:
1300 fps
1 1/4 oz shot charge

Chilled lead #4 (167 pellets)
@ 60 yards:
Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72


TSS #9 (447 pellets)
@ 60 yards:
Final Vel: 577
Energy (ft/lbs): 0.90
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 179.6
Gel Penetration: 1.67

Originally Posted by LFC
Rick I'd still like to know the mathematical equation for figuring energy density ?[s][/s]
.


I'm guessing "energy density" is energy (given in foot/lbs) divided by cross sectional area (given in square inches). So Energy Density=Energ/cross sectional area which makes sense because the units given are ft/lbs/sq in. A way of quantifying that the diameter of the pellet has an effect on penetration, just as much as the weight and velocity.

difference in sizing standards? rounding? I don't know, but in same ballpark.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The redneck ballistics test mentioned above by others shooting at barn tin goes hand in hand with this.

As does the 100 lb lady in stiletto heels standing on your foot versus the 200 lb guy standing on your foot wearing wide heeled work boots.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
FWIW.....20 Gauge at 40

Hanback is too young, taught Dick Kirby how to turkey hunt...

I had all 3 barrels that were available for the SP-10 and used the rifle sight Rem-Choke barrel for turkey hunting. It was the wood stocked matte finished metal model. I tried a 12 gauge 3-1/2" Browning BPS when they came out. Crap! That thing just about loosened the teeth in my head! Wasn't a fan of the Ithaca Mag-10 and when the SP-10 came out I picked one up. I'd shoot a SP-10 any day of the week over the BPS. Made the mistake of getting a Benelli Nova back when Galyan's was blowing them out for real cheap, forget how much, but it was cheap. Fired 1 3-1/2" 2-1/4oz turkey load from the Benelli and gave it to a guy I didn't like.

Anyway, getting off topic! TSS is a game changer, fact! I now use a Rem 870 youth 20ga I tricked out for turkey hunting. Small, lightweight and acts just like a big gun on the turkeys with the TSS shot.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I've never tested my shotgun on barn tin....all my testing has been on dead turkeys.

Ps...I knew Dick Kirby, Dwain Bland and his buddy Lennis Rose pretty good.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
The 20 gauge Winchester Long Beard sucks because it's loaded at a slow velocity and light shot charge.

So whats your point.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Federal TSS 20 gauge is "only" 100 fps faster and a 1/4 oz heavier than Longbeard XR. 20g TSS is slower than XX than 85-100 fps while being 3/16 oz heavier.

---

Dean, I had one barrel for my SP-10, but used it with a full choke for 00 buck and modified choke for rifled slugs. It was a little too heavy to still hunt with, but it was an incredible stand gun for deer.

And I agree with you regarding the Benelli. I have a Super Nova and 3.5" literally gives me a headache. One of the reasons I moved to smi-autos for 3.5". Oh, and the Super Nova shoots high for some reason.
I used steel soup cans when I was in my muzzleloading turkey hunting phase. Wanted to make sure what I was using would do the job. My 10 bore, with the nickle plated #5's, had no trouble punching through the cans at turkey yardages. I enjoyed trying all the different fiber wads, cardboard wads, wonder wads, bore buttons...

Then I got into loading my own blackpowder shells and using a couple different 12 bore sxs hammer guns, now I'm back to a modern shotgun with modern shells.
I too discredited TSS when I first started hearing about it. How could #9 shot out of a 20ga do what people claimed it did? I shoot skeet and was using that logic. Then I tried it and now it's what I use. And thankfully, I don't have to buy any at today's prices.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I strolled down the modern 10 gauge road several times.

I had a BPS 10 that didn't shoot very good with a variety of chokes that were available at the time. A big modern matte finished 10 ga. SxS it shot like hell I can't recall the maker....I too had a Remington SP 10 it shot okay great gun for duck hunting it's weight was hard to stop in full swing. I toted it turkey hunting one time and later sold it.
I made enough money to pay for it buying and selling SP 10 ga. bolt buffers.

When it first came out I hunted a year or so with a Mossberg 835....couldn't wait to unload that rattle trap of a beast.

I later bought a Tom Choke full custom 3.5" BPS 12. ga. one of the first ones on a 10 ga, BPS frame.
I bought it from a guy that had a custom Bansner 10 ga, BPS....He thought his Bansner 10 was "the gun".....after I got the 12 from him and we patterned both of them the 12 smoked the Bansner 10 ga. both shooting with Federal Premium turkey loads...he didn't even want to look at the targets....back in the day Federal was the turkey ammo.

My list of turkeys guns is really long just like my spur chain.....I've never shot a 10 gauge that would out pattern my SBE of going on 22 years.
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by LFC
The 20 gauge Winchester Long Beard sucks because it's loaded at a slow velocity and light shot charge.

So whats your point.



Are you really that dense? It's worse than I thought...Questions are not really your best game...
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I've been looking for a reason to buy another Winchester SX4. I love it in 12 g. I can see a cantilever turkey version in my future for TSS shot.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Okay, forgive me, I've never really studied TSS shot since my Winchester rounds have always worked well for me. But I'm intrigued now, and intrigue tends to make me spend money. So I'm interested in the following:

So, for a given shell, in my case, a 3" or 3.5" 12g shell loaded with #5 lead shot. The same shell loaded with #7 or #9 TSS will have significantly more pellets - a no-brainer. That's an advantage if penetration is at least the same, and if at least the same percentage of the shotload hits the target, which both appear to be the case. But since I've found my lead loads perfectly adequate for turkeys, I'm less interested in the amount of shot hitting the target, than the potential recoil reduction by moving down a gauge.

There must be a point where a 20 gauge 3" TSS shell is putting at least as many pellets on target as a 12 gauge 3" lead shell loaded with #5. In other words, there must be a smaller gauge TSS equivalet to a larger gauge lead round. If I can get as many pellets of #7 TSS out of a 20 gauge on target as I can with a 12 gauge 3 or 3.5" lead round, with a corresponding reduction in recoil (and a lower price 20 g TSS shell versus a 12 g TSS shgell), then both the economics, performance and comfort become more attractive.

That's what I find intriguing about TSS. Getting my current 12g lead performance out of a 20g. Where's the point of equivallency?


Great question, in part because there are so many ways to go with loading TSS that setting parameters makes it easier to focus. So, you want to maintain pellet count, lethality and reduce recoil, maybe drop a gauge or two? (Remember, a heavier gun will absorb more recoil, but ...)

The first thing is to find what sized shot is most similar to your #5 lead benchmark load. I see some Longbeard as follows:


12 ga, 3.5 inches, 2 oz lead, 1200 fps. The KPY numbers on that load based on 2-inches of penetration, are as follows:



Chilled lead #5 2 oz (340 pellets)

@ 2 inches gel penetration

Final Vel: 710
Distance: 35.5 yards
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.86
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 253.3

@ 8 pound gun weight

Recoil velocity: 21.45
Recoil Energy (ft/lbs): 57.13


Right off the bat, let's try



TSS #9 1 oz (357 pellets)

@ 2 inches gel penetration

Final Vel: 662
Distance: 43.9 yards
Energy (ft/lbs): 1.19
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 236.4

@ 8 pound gun weight

Recoil velocity: 12.06
Recoil Energy (ft/lbs): 18.08


So, you cut recoil to 1/3 of your 2 oz lead load, increased range by 25%, and you can do this out of a 28 ga now, although the lighter gun will increase felt recoil, of course.


Ballistic Products load data (Load 180716-10088) claims 1290 fps for 1 0z TSS out of a 2 3/4-inch 28 ga hull. smile
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
So, if the above 28g round is roughly equivalent to the 12g round I'm using, a 20g would likely be better.
I went to a 20ga because of TSS shot...
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
So, if the above 28g round is roughly equivalent to the 12g round I'm using, a 20g would likely be better.


Why would a 20 be "better?"

I look at it in terms of shot charge. Shot string length aside, 1 oz of shot at XXXX fps is what it is. The turkey will not care if the 1 oz is shot from a 12, 16, 20, or 28.

Are you wanting a more lethal load than your 12 ga lead using TSS? Well, then probably. A 20 ga hull has more internal capacity than a 28 ga hull, and you can probably use that to stuff in more TSS goodies. It will cost you in recoil of course, which is why we developed a load to pretty much equal your 12 ga load and reduce recoil as much as possible in the first place. You gotta pick your poison.

"Better" can include a lot of things and may be different for different people. If your primary goal is to reduce recoil and maintain lethality, it might be best to keep the 12. In my case, I chase quail up and down the foothills and have to carry a shotgun, so a light and quick-handling gun is "better" for me - a huge benefit of TSS. Another is fit/shootability. If you have a gun that fits you like a glove, then that's the one. How different gun patterns the load you want might make one "better."

It's all about priorities at that point.
Posted By: Andy3 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I believe what really makes the TSS work so well, is the density to frontal area ratio, of the pellet. #5 is .120" diameter and #9 is .080" diameter.

In flight (smaller = less air resistance), and upon impact (smaller = less surface area to punch through). The density does the rest.

TSS #2s are being used to kill deer and hogs, out to 100 yards.....and coyotes well beyond. Nearly all the pellets exit, on broadside hits, according to the reviews I've read.

On a much smaller scale, it reminds me of those 30mm depleted uranium rounds, from an A-10 warthog, going through an armored tank body.

The higher the density, the better the penetration......the smaller the shot, the higher the pellet count. They work together....just as the opposite works against you.

TSS (18.1 g/cc) is to lead (11.29 g/cc), what lead (11.29 g/cc) is to steel (7.85 g/cc).......waterfowl hunters understand it!

Andy3
Posted By: Teal Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I've been looking for a reason to buy another Winchester SX4. I love it in 12 g. I can see a cantilever turkey version in my future for TSS shot.


The Win Super X line of shotguns, especially at their price point are vastly underrated. I've been beyond impressed with my SX2. And let's be honest, outside of the M12 and 21 - Winchester isn't a name easily associated with shotgunning.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by RickBin
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
So, if the above 28g round is roughly equivalent to the 12g round I'm using, a 20g would likely be better.


Why would a 20 be "better?"

I look at it in terms of shot charge. Shot string length aside, 1 oz of shot at XXXX fps is what it is. The turkey will not care if the 1 oz is shot from a 12, 16, 20, or 28.

Are you wanting a more lethal load than your 12 ga lead using TSS? Well, then probably. A 20 ga hull has more internal capacity than a 28 ga hull, and you can probably use that to stuff in more TSS goodies. It will cost you in recoil of course, which is why we developed a load to pretty much equal your 12 ga load and reduce recoil as much as possible in the first place. You gotta pick your poison.

"Better" can include a lot of things and may be different for different people. If your primary goal is to reduce recoil and maintain lethality, it might be best to keep the 12. In my case, I chase quail up and down the foothills and have to carry a shotgun, so a light and quick-handling gun is "better" for me - a huge benefit of TSS. Another is fit/shootability. If you have a gun that fits you like a glove, then that's the one. How different gun patterns the load you want might make one "better."

It's all about priorities at that point.



It's more of a question than a statement. "Better," for the purposes of my question, is with respect to shot quantity, penetration and recoil. All else being equal.

Given your demonstration, you can approximate the performance of a 3.5" #5 shot shell with a 28g #9 TSS sheel, with signifcantly less recoil. Extrapolation suggests that you can, then, better the performance of the 12g 3.5" shell with a 20g 3" shell with #9 TSS shot with more recoli that the 28g but still less than the 12g.

Yes, I understand that there are variation in gun weights, patterning, etc. But again, right now, I'm thining in terms of all else being equal.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by Teal
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I've been looking for a reason to buy another Winchester SX4. I love it in 12 g. I can see a cantilever turkey version in my future for TSS shot.


The Win Super X line of shotguns, especially at their price point are vastly underrated. I've been beyond impressed with my SX2. And let's be honest, outside of the M12 and 21 - Winchester isn't a name easily associated with shotgunning.


Indeed, they are. I have a Maxus II and a SX4. Both are Browning-made in the same factory. Both operate substantially the same way. Both are short stroke gas guns. The Maxus has a little more refinement, with some parts being metal versus plastic on the SX4. The Maxus has a magazine cutoff and a quick load feature the SX4 doesn't have. But I scarcely ever use those features. In terms of performance, they are equals. The SX4 gives up nothing to the Maxus II except a little refinement and a few parts that are materially different. Otherwise, you get very comparable guns and identical performance with about $700-$800 less for the SX4. I used my SX4 quite a bit this season with 00 buck. It takes a big bite out of 3.5" shell recoil versus, say, my A5 or Benelli Super Nova.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by RickBin
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
So, if the above 28g round is roughly equivalent to the 12g round I'm using, a 20g would likely be better.


Why would a 20 be "better?"

I look at it in terms of shot charge. Shot string length aside, 1 oz of shot at XXXX fps is what it is. The turkey will not care if the 1 oz is shot from a 12, 16, 20, or 28.

Are you wanting a more lethal load than your 12 ga lead using TSS? Well, then probably. A 20 ga hull has more internal capacity than a 28 ga hull, and you can probably use that to stuff in more TSS goodies. It will cost you in recoil of course, which is why we developed a load to pretty much equal your 12 ga load and reduce recoil as much as possible in the first place. You gotta pick your poison.

"Better" can include a lot of things and may be different for different people. If your primary goal is to reduce recoil and maintain lethality, it might be best to keep the 12. In my case, I chase quail up and down the foothills and have to carry a shotgun, so a light and quick-handling gun is "better" for me - a huge benefit of TSS. Another is fit/shootability. If you have a gun that fits you like a glove, then that's the one. How different gun patterns the load you want might make one "better."

It's all about priorities at that point.



It's more of a question than a statement. "Better," for the purposes of my question, is with respect to shot quantity, penetration and recoil. All else being equal.

Given your demonstration, you can approximate the performance of a 3.5" #5 shot shell with a 28g #9 TSS sheel, with signifcantly less recoil. Extrapolation suggests that you can, then, better the performance of the 12g 3.5" shell with a 20g 3" shell with #9 TSS shot with more recoli that the 28g but still less than the 12g.

Yes, I understand that there are variation in gun weights, patterning, etc. But again, right now, I'm thining in terms of all else being equal.


Absolutely.

BP 181211-10741 has 1 5/8 TSS at 1100 fps out of a 2 3/4 20 gauge.



TSS #9 1 5/8 oz (581 pellets)
(maxxes out pellet count of ~equal lethality)

@ 2 inches gel penetration

Final Vel: 663
Distance: 40.5 yards
Energy (ft/lbs): 1.19
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 236.7

@ 8 pound gun weight

Recoil velocity: 16.80
Recoil Energy (ft/lbs): 35.07


Kick it up to TSS #7.5 (347 pellets)
(maxxes out lethality of ~equal pellet count)

Final Vel: 558
Distance: 65.9 yards
Energy (ft/lbs): 1.41
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 199.3



Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
I know a guy that had his retina detached shooting a Beneili super nova off a bench rest...


My signature line disappeared....I guess it offended someone in high places.
Posted By: 44mc Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
LFC from Tennessee sounds like steelhead to me .just a little bitch of a piss ant punk . rick will figger it out
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/04/22
Why you guys that shoot little balls so nasty....
Posted By: gitem_12 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Why you guys that shoot little balls so nasty....


Slummy sais you make lots of little balls shoot....into your mouth
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
10Glock
I went 20 ga years ago because the only shells with TSS were the ones you loaded yourself. TSS data was black magic back then and you had to know someone to get the recipe.
12 and 20 ga data was all there was. Fast forward a couple of years and people were loading 28 ga and a year or so later 410 came along.
I have a 28 ga semi auto and a 410 O/U but no desire to turkey hunt with either so never tried TSS in them.
The 28 and 410 as a general statement makes a light carry guns and that is why some like it for turkey hunting.
For me the 20 is fine, it is lighter than the 12's I hunted with before, less shot change means less recoil (the way mine are loaded, not trying to go max on fps). Better pattern density is also a plus, as is the better penetration. For me and what I am looking for the 20 is as far as I want to look.
If I had tons of land to hunt and was having to walk my butt off ( the main farm I hunt is only about 150 acres so fairly easy to cover) I might look at a super light 28 ga, but for now I am good.
I bought up a life time supply of TSS years ago and still have about 30 lbs of it.
Posted By: GuideGun Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
I've killed turkeys way further than I care to admit with T9s...never once have I lost a bird that I cleanly hit with shot. I shoot the Apex GT-20 1-5/8oz load in my little single shot 20 gauge turkey rig. With a .555" Indian Creek choke I get around 350 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards. Dense, but even pattern. I'm setting up a 12 gauge SX4 this spring for birds. I ordered a .665" Indian Creek to start, and likely shoot T8s in the big 3.5" hull.

TSS you just gotta see to believe. 7 gobblers have fallen to my little 20 gauge. Not one has moved after being shot.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by GuideGun


Not one has moved after being shot.


That is one thing I have noticed as well, they typically don't flop or move after the shot.
I guess there is so much trauma to the brain and neck is the reason, not sure
Posted By: Ackleyfan Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Tss #9's are a game changer for my grandson, his 410 has gotten a good workout this year, is it expensive.... yes and worth every penny to me,

His first tom..
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
First canadian honker..
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Beautiful pictures!!
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Rick why would you not use Bismuth for upland game ?
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Rick why would you not use Bismuth for upland game ?


Answer #1: I do. Out of older shotguns that cannot shoot steel.

Answer #2: Because TSS is better.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
I can't really see where it could be better especially for upland birds.

I'll say first off I want a choke and a pellet size that will kill what I shoot with minimal meat damage....that puts me off to shooting a high number of pellets like small TSS shot at something I intend to eat.

Bismuth shot....

I've squirrel hunted on duck refuges that required environmentally safe shot and consistently killed squirrels tree top high with 2&3/4" Bismuth #6 shot In a modern 12 gauge...

Try it with steel shot and you better keep shooting till the squirrel hits the ground dead.

I've shot ducks in Arkansas and Missouri with 1&5/8 oz of Bismuth #4 shot ahread of 130 grains of black powder and also a low pressure smokeless load that chronographed over 1200 fps in a 32" barreled 1879 10 ga W.C. Scott Premeir grade hammer gun and also with an 1881 10 ga. Purdy hammer gun both guns rocked their world...none dove or swam off when they hit the water like they do with steel shot.

My buddy is an outfitter in Missouri that duck hunts every day of the duck season he switched to Boss Bismuth after I turned him on to Bismuth shot...said he would never shoot another duck with anything else.

I've shot turkeys with a modern 12 ga. with a 3" factory Bismuth #4s on the same duck refuges I squirrel hunted...never noticed it being any less effective than lead on turkeys.

I've hunted quail with an 1871 W.C.Scott hammer gun (built before choke) loaded with 2.5" 12 gauge with black powder and #7.5 lead shot with cylinder bore one of the most effective quail guns I ever shot.

I never noticed any of them lacking in killing power.

How dead is dead.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by GuideGun
I've killed turkeys way further than I care to admit with T9s...never once have I lost a bird that I cleanly hit with shot. I shoot the Apex GT-20 1-5/8oz load in my little single shot 20 gauge turkey rig. With a .555" Indian Creek choke I get around 350 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards. Dense, but even pattern. I'm setting up a 12 gauge SX4 this spring for birds. I ordered a .665" Indian Creek to start, and likely shoot T8s in the big 3.5" hull.

TSS you just gotta see to believe. 7 gobblers have fallen to my little 20 gauge. Not one has moved after being shot.


I've only killed a few spring turkey in fields, clear cuts, actually. I've killed most in swamp bottomlands. Doubt I've ever killed a bird much past 35 yards, and the closest about 10 yards. #5 and #6 has always killed them just as dead. I've never lost a bird. One of the benefits of Winchester XX is that you get a bit of a spread closer in. That's an advantage when you bring them in close.
Posted By: killerv Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by GuideGun
I've killed turkeys way further than I care to admit with T9s...never once have I lost a bird that I cleanly hit with shot. I shoot the Apex GT-20 1-5/8oz load in my little single shot 20 gauge turkey rig. With a .555" Indian Creek choke I get around 350 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards. Dense, but even pattern. I'm setting up a 12 gauge SX4 this spring for birds. I ordered a .665" Indian Creek to start, and likely shoot T8s in the big 3.5" hull.

TSS you just gotta see to believe. 7 gobblers have fallen to my little 20 gauge. Not one has moved after being shot.


I shot a bird last day of the season a couple years back with the 7 1/2 tss. Open field, I figured it was about 60 yards. It ended up being a bit further than that. Bird just disappeared in the grass, no flop, nothing....dead. I dont like those shots but I had the bead on him and felt good about it. Buddy sitting with me was impressed. It's some bad stuff, I dont care what it costs. I can only shoot a couple birds in Ga anyway, whats 50 bucks for a 5pack of tss when I'm spending all this money on plots, gas, etc.

I know this guy that shot clean through 3/4in plywood @40 with his 410 and no9 tss when patterning.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Any one remember the Winchester Extended Range ammo ?...every shell I shoot i cut open and check out

They had silver pellets in them that I believe were a Bismuth mix....a silver #4 weighed a tad less than a copper plated #4....the hammer test when smacked with a big hammer they crush into a powdery substance like Bismuth.

Any how I was hunting this big field one afternoon. A big gobbler came out on the edge of the field looked my way them went back in the woods...later he came back out a lot closer too me...went erect turned his back to me and lightly shuffled/checked his wings on his back and I let him have it.....I walked it off 3 times once to him and then back to where I was sitting to pick up my gear....then again back to the turkey....
72 long steps.

I've shot a few more maybe even furthur....some that I didn't pace off because I just didn't want to know.

Not something I was proud of or that was I amazed by....actually I felt ashamed even though I had killed the turkey.

I figured he was closer turkeys look awful big in fields....he might would have came closer you never know.

For me just the opposit is true in the woods....I've passed shots in the woods that after the fact were within 35 to 40 yards.

For a while now I been having to hunt big field turkeys....I don't use blinds or decoys.

I only had one get away that I shot too far....

I used to carry a small pair of binoculars now days I carry a small Lieca range finder....first thing I do when I get to a spot is read something on the ground that I can use for a 50 yard reference. It could be a clump of grass a weed just something I can remember.

50 yards is my personal max "known distance" if I know its further than 50 yards I'm likely not shooting. I came up with this number from years of killing turkeys and then everything needs to be just right.

I let one walk last year that came up on a pasture terrace turned his rear to me and I ranged his azz hole...40 yards full strut. (Only Turkey I've ever ranged)

Could I have gotten him out of full strut and killed him ?
I didn't feel confident enough in the situation.

He strutted back off the terrace and lived to fight me unsuccessfully another day.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
I can't even imagine shooting a turkey that far away except with maybe a rifle, which I have done (the rifle part, not the distance). I won't take a rear shot or a quartering away shot. Toms always seem to be pivoting and unless I have a clear line of sight to the head/neck, I don't pull. Exception was a few fall turkeys in my youth that I took with buckshot during deer season. I don't hunt with any optics or red dots. I hunt over fiber optic "rifle" sights mounted on my rib or down a rib with a HiViz sight. Much past 40 yards and it feels like I'm just shooting in that general direction. I know how my guns pattern and won't shoot beyond its reasonable capability. I also hunt cypress and tupelo bottomlands and getting a clear shot at much over 35 yards is rare.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Go sit on an 800 yard crop field and it won't be so hard for you to imagine....I shot that 72 yard gobbled with brass bead sights.

I used a scope years back and went back to bead sights....the pollen and age is catching up to me so this year I'll have my scope back on....the big reasom was because of a 15 foot miss on an 800 yards crop field.

In the back shot is one of the best shot to take on a turkey.

Just like everything else there's always an if....

"If" the head and body is fully erect....his entire spine is more exposed.....

A gobblers vitals are more protected when a gobbler is facing you or broad side.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
I hunt mainly timber land with huge clear cuts, replanted pines, hardwoods, and cypress/tupelo bottoms and plenty of water, with lots of culitvated fields nearby. I've seen plenty of toms out in the open. I just won't take a shot where I don't think I have a much better than even chance of a clean kill. I've never lost a bird to date and don't want to. 40 or so yards is my self imposed limit.

Now, if someone can come up with some TSS buck shot that will let me reliably reach out to 50-60 yards on dear and won't damage my barrel or choke, that's be great. I hunt a few buckshot-only areas and it's tough seeing a buck out of buckshot range that I could have easily taken with a slug.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Why I am considering going to a smaller gauge. I'm a week out and I still feel like I've been beaten with a baseball bat.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22


Were you shooting prone
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Nope. It's a vertical bruise when I put my arm down.
My very good friend and hunting companion for years shoots a Mossberg 835. One time he shot a turkey that was on a ridge almost behind him. The way he ended up twisting, to take the shot, put the butt of the shotgun on his right bicep instead of his shoulder. He shot, and killed, that bird and the bruise the 12ga 3-1/2" 2-1/4oz turkey shell gave him was incredible! His entire arm, from just below the elbow, up into the shoulder, was the most beautiful shade of purple and yellow.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
It's starting to yellow now. It's been a lovely shade of purple and blue for saeveral days. That's from 20 shots of 3 1/2" (10 00 buck, 10 #5 turkey)
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Why I am considering going to a smaller gauge. I'm a week out and I still feel like I've been beaten with a baseball bat.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Dang, that did leave a mark. I don't think I am that pissed off at anything to go thru that
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
My very good friend and hunting companion for years shoots a Mossberg 835. One time he shot a turkey that was on a ridge almost behind him. The way he ended up twisting, to take the shot, put the butt of the shotgun on his right bicep instead of his shoulder. He shot, and killed, that bird and the bruise the 12ga 3-1/2" 2-1/4oz turkey shell gave him was incredible! His entire arm, from just below the elbow, up into the shoulder, was the most beautiful shade of purple and yellow.



Those 835's are noted for killing on one end and crippling on the other.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
Originally Posted by pullit

Those 835's are noted for killing on one end and crippling on the other.


The Browning A5 isn't much better. They're a semi auto, but it's inertia and it doesn't do much to soak up recoil. On top of that its light. My gas guns are way more comfortable to shoot with heavies than the A5.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/05/22
I had a Mossberg 935 that was not bad. It had the overbored barrel like the 835 but was a gas automatic. Patterned great a recoil was not bad.
I sold it when I quit using a 12 ga to turkey hunt with
Posted By: Hogeye Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I hunt mainly timber land with huge clear cuts, replanted pines, hardwoods, and cypress/tupelo bottoms and plenty of water, with lots of culitvated fields nearby. I've seen plenty of toms out in the open. I just won't take a shot where I don't think I have a much better than even chance of a clean kill. I've never lost a bird to date and don't want to. 40 or so yards is my self imposed limit.

Now, if someone can come up with some TSS buck shot that will let me reliably reach out to 50-60 yards on dear and won't damage my barrel or choke, that's be great. I hunt a few buckshot-only areas and it's tough seeing a buck out of buckshot range that I could have easily taken with a slug.

You might like the Dixie Tri Ball. Developed by James Gates, it is a 3" 12 ga. hull with three .60 caliber round lead balls. I haven't tried it (not legal where I live) but others say they group tight through turkey chokes and kill at 70 yards.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
Originally Posted by LFC
I can't really see where it could be better especially for upland birds.

I'll say first off I want a choke and a pellet size that will kill what I shoot with minimal meat damage....that puts me off to shooting a high number of pellets like small TSS shot at something I intend to eat.



Well, there are options and realities you apparently are not contemplating ...

Consider: TSS is DENSER than lead. That means there are FEWER pellets in a given weight of a given shot size in TSS than in lead. The TSS pellets will also be much more lethal and much more likely to pass through.



1 oz. #4 Lead (134 pellets) @ 1200 fps penetrates gel 2" to 45.4 yards. Your preferred shot size, I believe.

1 oz. #4 TSS (83 pellets) @ 1200 fps penetrates gel 2" to 139.1 yards. Too sparse for my taste, but you might like the pellet count.

1 oz. #6 TSS (137 pellets) @ 1200 fps penetrates gel 2" to 98 yards.
Now tell me whether this load is going to damage meat more or less, not to speak of leave more or fewer pellets in your 40 yard turkey? I am seeing equal pellet count, smaller holes, and complete pass-throughs (and DOUBLE the range). In all likelihood, you are looking at complete pass-through to whatever range your skillset/patterns take you.


It's not even close. At identical muzzle velocities, #6 TSS will outdo your lead #4s to double the range, if you were so inclined and properly choked/patterned.
Notice, we have not even set out the smaller/high-count pellet scenario here, even though it is very attractive to most, because YOU do not prefer it. And that's fine. There are lots of ways to go with this.



As an aside, and as stated before not really worth getting into at this point, I use steel/TSS duplex loads out of a 20 ga (incredible performance!) for quail and very light (5/8 oz) TSS-only loads out of the 28, and I am still experimenting.
Posted By: roverboy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
I have killed 2 long range turkeys. One was 60 and the other 66 yards. I didn't know either was that far. When I'm sitting down for some reason, I can't estimate range good at all.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
Originally Posted by roverboy
I have killed 2 long range turkeys. One was 60 and the other 66 yards. I didn't know either was that far. When I'm sitting down for some reason, I can't estimate range good at all.


Be interested in the load info. Those are some serious pokes!
Posted By: roverboy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
3" Win. Longbeards #4 shot. I know a couple other guys that have killed a little further.
Posted By: RickBin Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
Nice.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
Rick I'll go out on an limb and say that a handloader or another Ammo manufacturer can not load a 12 gauge 3" shotgun shell with 1&3/4 ozs of #6 TSS shot that can out pattern a 12 gauge 3" Winchester Long Beard shell with 1 &3/4 oz. of #6 copper plated lead shot...velocity or pattern wise.

I shoot 12 ga. 3.5" shell with 2 oz of #4 because I like the higher velosity and all the testing I've done has shown me the #4s shoot the best for me. I've killed a lot of Turkeys in the fall and several in the spring with the 3" 1&3/4 oz shells...#4 and #5s...myself I've shot #6s and I don't care for #6s for turkey.

You'll get a few more pellets in your target with 5s and 6s and they also offer a lower velocity 12 gauge 2oz, 3" shell and 2&1/4oz. 3.5" 12 gauge load for the guy that needs to see more pellets on paper..

I'm guessing about now you're thinking I'm wrong, I'm crazy or and don't know what I'm talking about...just bare with me.

Get your hands on a Winchester Long Beard shell take your knife and cut the very end of the shell off.

The shot will not come out....

You can bang it on your work bench or throw it on the floor or against the wall the shot ain't coming out ...2 or 3 pellets might fall out but you will have to pick the rest of the shot out of the shell a pellet or two at a time with a pick.

Winchester calls this "Shot Lock Technology".

Here's my take on it....

It appears to me to be some kind of epoxy that has to be put in the shell along with the shot in a liquid form and then it hardens around the shot.
..the pellets are literally "locked in the wad". This is the biggest improvement in Turkey loads since the plastic shot cup/wad

When Winchester came out with "Shot Lock Tecnology" is when Federal went to scrambling and started loading the little TSS pellets....along with their advertising plan.

Why because they couldn't make a shotgun shell that could hold a candle to the new Winchester shell with standard sized shot.

Plane as day if you were watching.

Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
That resin encasing the shot breaks into powder when the round is fired becoming a fine buffer material.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
LFC
I have seen what I think you are talking about. I have seen everything the same from shell to choke to gun being the same except for shot size and #4 may pattern better than #5 or #6 and or vis-versa. When it comes to turkey guns and shooting tight patterns, I think shotguns are no different than rifles, each one is different and they like what they like.

If I had to go back to shooting lead, the Long Breads are going to be tuff to beat in the testing I have done. I don't know first hand but have heard some bad stuff about them not doing well if they are older. Buddy had some that were about 2 or maybe 3 years old and said that his "glue' (or whatever they use to hold the shot together) had turned to powder and when he shot the shell, the shot did not stay together and the pattern went to crap. I have heard this form a few guys that I trust but once again, I don't know first hand. Maybe they got a bad batch or something, who knows.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
It is true some shells had a slight rattle...I sorted through mine several years back. And got close to 10 shells that rattled out of 8 or 10 boxes...contacted Wincherster and they replaced them.

If I buy any I open the box in the store before I buy them and shake each shell....found a few but not many. Guy at the gun counter is going to think you're nuts....

I've never saw the buffer "go to powder"....I'm betting he's meaning the slight rattle.

I have 8 or 10 boxes of 3.5" 2oz #4s on hand
...I figured when I first saw one with a rattle that it would affect the pattern. So I shot them just to get rid of them and I couldn't see a difference in how they shot.

There is a problem with the shell that bares watching.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
I've got 3 boxes of new Longbeard XR 3" 1 3/4 oz sitting in front of me right now. Open one box, and 4 of them sound like they have a single loose pellet that rattles. I'm unconcerned. The instant that shell fires, that resin begins to particalize and turns into a fine dust buffer. It's not intended to come out of the muzzle as a single resin/pellet unit.

Here's a picture from another website.

http://www.talkhuntin.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39325.0;attach=49407;image

Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
Originally Posted by LFC
It is true some shells had a slight rattle...I sorted through mine several years back. And got close to 10 shells that rattled out of 8 or 10 boxes...contacted Winchester and they replaced them.

If I buy any I open the box in the store before I buy them and shake each shell....found a few but not many. Guy at the gun counter is going to think you're nuts....

I've never saw the buffer "go to powder"....I'm betting he's meaning the slight rattle.

I have 8 or 10 boxes of 3.5" 2oz #4s on hand
...I figured when I first saw one with a rattle that it would affect the pattern. So I shot them just to get rid of them and I couldn't see a difference in how they shot.

There is a problem with the shell that bares watching.


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's the problem...some might not know that the Winchester Long beard is roll crimped. They use a plastic segmented over shot card.
Theory being that upon ignition the card will fragment and not effect the pattern. When I'm hunting I just pull my chamber and let the shells in the magazine ride.

Last year I found this shell just like you see it in my magazine tube after hunting season....it had been riding in the magazine tube through several kills.

A year or two back I shot a turkey at less than 10 yards though a hog wire fence....he was moving when he came by me. Boom knocked him down for a second...must've just raked his head with a pellet. He got up and toddled off...I stepped up to the fence boom missed him. Gun jammed up tighter than Dicks hat band. Tried to force the bolt closed on the fence post....no luck tired to force it open. Extractor came over the rim....pulled the barrel cut an ash stick and tried to knock the shell out....no luck.

I look back down the fence and the turkey is standing there next to a tree....I threw the gun down and jumped the fence. As I'm approaching him I'm thinking boy I don't want to wrestle a big gobbler standing up....I pick up what looks to be a stout piece of an old fence post. The closer I get I think he's going to run and I'm going to loose this turkey.

I get up on him and he's just standing there in kind of a half strut with his head draw down....he sees me and kid of wiggled his head. I come down towards his head and smack him with the stick...dang stick breaks and he's still standing there now I have about a foot long piece of wood. I smack him again and knock him down now the fight is on....I finally get a foot on one leg and another on his head.

Game over...nothing like a good turkey fight. Got my gobbler went back and gathered up the pieces of my gun put the barrel back on the bolt in my pocket and back to the truck we go.

It took some pounding (with a short 30 cal. Dewey cleaning rod I keep in the truck) to get the shell out of the gun destroyed the shell dumped shot and buffer into my action. A little cleaning and I was back in business. Destroyed the shell so I can only guess what happened.....shell was 3 deep in my magazine and had rode there for several kills. I'm guessing it was caused by a situation just like pictured above.


Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
The turned to powder was his words so who know.
Back to the point, I do think the Long Breads are a hard shell to beat in 12 ga. I have not seen or know anybody that has used them in a 20 ga.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
I bought some 20 ga. Longbeards when they first came out....they patterned okay.

Like I said earlier I wouldn't shoot them because I want at least 1200 fps. in a turkey load.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
By the way, never heard of wrestling a turkey before, but glad you got the bird.
Just try some TSS 7.5s, 8s, or 9s at 1200fps or under, and you can save the sticks for beating yourself about the head.

I can’t count the turkeys I’ve killed, long before TSS came along…..and #5 lead was as big as I ever saw a need for. Usually #6s and even some HV 7.5s to keep density up after green out. Then again, I wasn’t body shooting them, or trying to kill them past 40yds, so maybe #4s was the way to go with that style.


….but since TSS has come along with the pattern density and mass it provides, I have trouble comprehending ‘wanting’ to use anything else. Even an ‘ice pick’ in the CNS will kill them faster than a buckshot elsewhere. I’ve never chased one a step with TSS in sub gauges, and I’ve never had to use a 3.5” shell to compensate for lack of sense or other endowment.
Last year, the 2 toms I shot with the 20 gauge 3" 1-1/2 oz #9 TSS were both bang flop at +/- 40 yards. Not even a twitch or tremor. I'd like to say it was the same with my nickle plated lead #5's in the 10 or 12, but it isn't. The 5's have still killed more than a few decades of toms, but kinda liking this smaller 20ga that acts like a bigger shotgun.
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
My very good friend and hunting companion for years shoots a Mossberg 835. One time he shot a turkey that was on a ridge almost behind him. The way he ended up twisting, to take the shot, put the butt of the shotgun on his right bicep instead of his shoulder. He shot, and killed, that bird and the bruise the 12ga 3-1/2" 2-1/4oz turkey shell gave him was incredible! His entire arm, from just below the elbow, up into the shoulder, was the most beautiful shade of purple and yellow.



I had both the 835 and Benelli Nova that I had to get rid of due to the recoil. My VersaMax does a much better job of handling the bigger loads without pounding my shoulder.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/06/22
You like your little balls I like my big balls.....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
There's lots of things I tend to worry about turkey hunting. Like, what the hell was that noise I just made with my diaphram call? Or when my mask rides up my nose into my bottom eyelids when I'm trying to look down the rib. There's lots of worries. Not once have I worried about my Winchester XX #5 or #6 not working as it should.

If I try TSS, it will be for the purposes of moving down to a 20 gauge. That's it. I appreciate the denisty, range, penetration examples. But my lead ammo has never failed me. The only thing it tends to do is beat me up a little. But a few shots to pattern before season, and a shot or two during season, even that's truly a non-issue.
Posted By: blairvt Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
There's lots of things I tend to worry about turkey hunting. Like, what the hell was that noise I just made with my diaphram call? Or when my mask rides up my nose into my bottom eyelids when I'm trying to look down the rib. There's lots of worries. Not once have I worried about my Winchester XX #5 or #6 not working as it should.

If I try TSS, it will be for the purposes of moving down to a 20 gauge. That's it. I appreciate the denisty, range, penetration examples. But my lead ammo has never failed me. The only thing it tends to do is beat me up a little. But a few shots to pattern before season, and a shot or two during season, even that's truly a non-issue.

Exactly. I switched to a Winchester 37 because I got tired of carrying a Browning A5 around. Been using the same box of Winchester XX 5's for years. seems to work very well, but then I wouldn't shoot a turkey at 60 yards even if I could. Difference between hunting and shooting I guess
For the record, I’ve never even tried a TSS load in anything larger than a 20ga…..for ANYTHING, much less turkeys. I do have some of the old Remington tungsten 00 buck in 12ga that I keep for armored hog use ;)….but never tried it.
Some further premises:

—Harder shot deforms less, patterns better, and handles velocity better.

—Denser material resists external factors FAR more than less dense material.

—Lead is subject to deformation (especially above 1250fps), no matter what it’s plated with…..the epoxy binder in longbeards overcomes this somewhat, but it still doesn’t pattern as well as harder, denser shot.

—Pellet size is irrelevant to a CNS strike on a turkey, so long as there’s sufficient penetration.

—If load vs yardage penetration is sufficient, then pattern density is the primary factor with a turkey load.

—TSS #8s are likely the most versatile TSS size, and equals or outperforms #4/#5 lead loads. Pattern density is no comparison. Blows lead out of the water

—TSS #9 & #10 equal or outperform lead #6 loads.

—#7-10 TSS enable sub gauges to equal or exceed the lethality of lead 10 and 12ga loads.

The only logical argument I see against TSS is cost vs benefit, and for a turkey hunter, bitching about shell costs vs volume of shooting is idiotic. I’ve got more $ in single calls than a couple of boxes of TSS loads, and you can roll your own with next to no special equipment, at 1/3 the cost.
Nobody is saying you need or have to have TSS to kill a turkey, but it’s a better mousetrap. Some had rather use a longbow over a rifle for deer, too. Go nuts. There’s just zero reason for me to carry a 12ga as a dedicated turkey gun any longer, though I have plenty of them. I can dedicate a smaller, lighter sub gauge gun for turkeys, that’s easier to pack, carry, and shoot. Shot string doesn’t matter. I can wing shoot other stuff with the 12s, where it might matter, and the volume of shooting is 1000x higher. What’s not to like about a 5-6# gun that stones turkeys to 40+, and that you can let the kid/lady next to you get their first bird with and not bust their nose?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
I think that TSS will work fine in a 12 ga but in my book the smaller ga's is where it really shines. With factory shells you are limited when it comes to the smaller ga. guns.
Sure lead will work and has worked for many many years but TSS has shown its worth to me in the 20 ga. I have never used it in any thing else. I know some use it to try and make long shots, but I went to it for the reduced recoil due to shoulder issues.
It took me a long long time before I would try it just because like others I could not wrap my head around the smaller shot size. I have a very good friend that I trust a lot and he finally talked me into it. That and I called in a bird for him and saw it first hand what what it did to the birds head and neck made me to try it. I have never looked back and I sold all my 12 ga turkey guns after that as well.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
Just try some TSS 7.5s, 8s, or 9s at 1200fps or under, and you can save the sticks for beating yourself about the head.

I can’t count the turkeys I’ve killed, long before TSS came along…..and #5 lead was as big as I ever saw a need for. Usually #6s and even some HV 7.5s to keep density up after green out. Then again, I wasn’t body shooting them, or trying to kill them past 40yds, so maybe #4s was the way to go with that style.


….but since TSS has come along with the pattern density and mass it provides, I have trouble comprehending ‘wanting’ to use anything else. Even an ‘ice pick’ in the CNS will kill them faster than a buckshot elsewhere. I’ve never chased one a step with TSS in sub gauges, and I’ve never had to use a 3.5” shell to compensate for lack of sense or other endowment.



Don't you just love it....ain't no body here "body shooting" turkeys.....sounds like your shooting brush shots at turkeys....after "green up " you change shot sizes to "keep density up".

Say WHOooooo.....

"I can't count the numbers of turkeys I've killed long before TSS came along"....

Hard to believe ain't it....

I never knew you guys shot TSs because you were so well "endowed" and had such great "sense"....

(fact is I thought it was the other way around).

Here's you a tip go get you a hick'rey stick about a 1/2" thick.....(dont get one no bigger because you don't want to crack open that dense head of yours)

Lighly whip yourself over the head every morning and come to your senses.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
The other thing I never worried about is how heavy my 12 gauge was. My A5 is just over 7 lbs unloaded, with a 26" barrel and Kicks choke. My Remington 870 SPS wasn't any bigger than a 20g version. Yeah, back in the day my Remington SP10 was a bear to carry. But I used that not out of necessity, but just becasue I wanted to. Gun weight with modern alloy receivered guns is, IMO, a non-issue for the vast majority of hunters.

As far as having "more money in some calls than a few boxes of TSS loads," just understand you don't blow through calls each season like you do ammo. I've still got my very first Lynch box call from the late 70s, and still use it. I don't still have the very first round I ever killed a turkey with. Call cost versus ammo cost: it's a false dichotomy.

TSS shows some ballistic advantages. No question. I agree with that. But TSS will never help me scout better, set up better, or call better. If I do those things well, I don't need more range or more lethality. Lead is perfectly adequate if you can bring a turkey in to a reasonable range. If you can't, maybe TSS is compensation for a differnt deficiency.




Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by hh4whiskey
Just try some TSS 7.5s, 8s, or 9s at 1200fps or under, and you can save the sticks for beating yourself about the head.

I can’t count the turkeys I’ve killed, long before TSS came along…..and #5 lead was as big as I ever saw a need for. Usually #6s and even some HV 7.5s to keep density up after green out. Then again, I wasn’t body shooting them, or trying to kill them past 40yds, so maybe #4s was the way to go with that style.


….but since TSS has come along with the pattern density and mass it provides, I have trouble comprehending ‘wanting’ to use anything else. Even an ‘ice pick’ in the CNS will kill them faster than a buckshot elsewhere. I’ve never chased one a step with TSS in sub gauges, and I’ve never had to use a 3.5” shell to compensate for lack of sense or other endowment.



Don't you just love it....ain't no body here "body shooting" turkeys.....sounds like your shooting brush shots at turkeys....after "green up " you change shot sizes to "keep density up".

Say WHOooooo.....

"I can't count the numbers of turkeys I've killed long before TSS came along"....

Hard to believe ain't it....

I never knew you guys shot TSs because you were so well "endowed" and had such great "sense"....

(fact is I thought it was the other way around).

Here's you a tip go get you a hick'rey stick about a 1/2" thick.....(dont get one no bigger because you don't want to crack open that dense head of yours)

Lighly whip yourself over the head every morning and come to your senses.




You’re just too stupid to quit digging. I’d offer you a bigger shovel, but you’d stick with a spoon, just for spite. You’re a rare kind of genius, that nobody else has ever heard of.

I’d tell you to get a 3rd grade physics tutor, but getting your teeth fixed is likely a higher priority.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
Better get that hick'rey switch and tap yer hard head this morning Mr. Physics boy.....
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
The other thing I never worried about is how heavy my 12 gauge was. My A5 is just over 7 lbs unloaded, with a 26" barrel and Kicks choke. My Remington 870 SPS wasn't any bigger than a 20g version. Yeah, back in the day my Remington SP10 was a bear to carry. But I used that not out of necessity, but just because I wanted to. Gun weight with modern alloy receivered guns is, IMO, a non-issue for the vast majority of hunters.


Girly men like little girly guns....

Originally Posted by 10Glocks

TSS shows some ballistic advantages. No question. I agree with that. But TSS will never help me scout better, set up better, or call better. If I do those things well, I don't need more range or more lethality. Lead is perfectly adequate if you can bring a turkey in to a reasonable range. If you can't, maybe TSS is compensation for a different deficiency.


From the dawn on shot gunnery it's always been about stretching the distance....

The TSS guys used to brag all over the internet about their magical long range kills when it became unpopular they changed their tune to it has "more lethality".

I don't agree with TSS having a Ballistic advantage or having more lethality....why because at 40 to 60 yards I don't believe ballistics play any part with a shotgun pellet....their assessment comes straight from the TSS Internet Handbook.

Bottom line TSS from the start was about shooting turkeys at longer ranges....if they didn't believe it kills turkeys further they wouldn't spend the money it.

I just chuckle when I see the TSS guy claiming "I kill all my turkeys at close range and I shoot TSS"....

Makes no sense to me if I claimed to shoot all my turkeys at 20 to 25 yards I would be shooting a dove load.

I just keep this going to see if you’ll up your level of stupid from your last post.

I keep thinking: there’s gotta be a ceiling to stupid.

You keep proving me wrong.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
I guess common sense flies right over your head...
Comedy gold
Posted By: roverboy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/07/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
The other thing I never worried about is how heavy my 12 gauge was. My A5 is just over 7 lbs unloaded, with a 26" barrel and Kicks choke. My Remington 870 SPS wasn't any bigger than a 20g version. Yeah, back in the day my Remington SP10 was a bear to carry. But I used that not out of necessity, but just because I wanted to. Gun weight with modern alloy receivered guns is, IMO, a non-issue for the vast majority of hunters.


Girly men like little girly guns....

Originally Posted by 10Glocks

TSS shows some ballistic advantages. No question. I agree with that. But TSS will never help me scout better, set up better, or call better. If I do those things well, I don't need more range or more lethality. Lead is perfectly adequate if you can bring a turkey in to a reasonable range. If you can't, maybe TSS is compensation for a different deficiency.


From the dawn on shot gunnery it's always been about stretching the distance....

The TSS guys used to brag all over the internet about their magical long range kills when it became unpopular they changed their tune to it has "more lethality".

I don't agree with TSS having a Ballistic advantage or having more lethality....why because at 40 to 60 yards I don't believe ballistics play any part with a shotgun pellet....their assessment comes straight from the TSS Internet Handbook.

Bottom line TSS from the start was about shooting turkeys at longer ranges....if they didn't believe it kills turkeys further they wouldn't spend the money it.

I just chuckle when I see the TSS guy claiming "I kill all my turkeys at close range and I shoot TSS"....

Makes no sense to me if I claimed to shoot all my turkeys at 20 to 25 yards I would be shooting a dove load.


I agree. Like I said before I personally don't need TSS in my 12 gauge 3" ammo. I don't have a problem at all with guys that want to use it. Most of the birds I've killed have been 40 yards and under.
Posted By: Hogeye Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/08/22
As far as shot size goes, some pretty good turkey hunters were loading a couple of ounces of #9 lead in 3" shells for really good pattern density before there was any TSS or any 12 ga. 3.5" shells. Nothing new under the sun
Just because I haven't looked in a long time, I looked up what 20ga. TSS turkey shells are going for now. WOW! Glad I have what I have and don't need any. I've always said ammo is the cheapest part of any hunt, but glad I'm not looking for any...
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/09/22
TSS ammo price is insane. $10+ PER SHELL for 12 gauge.
I hear the material to make TSS shot only comes from China? Never looked into that, but maybe that's a reason right now, if a reason needs to be given anymore...
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/09/22
I've read that, too. The China/Tungsten connection. Quick google search.

https://www.miningnewsnorth.com/sto...nation-makes-tungsten-critical/5772.html

https://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Tungsten_Super_Shot.html
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/09/22
It will be a cold day in hell before I shoot an American Wild turkey with Chinese made shot.....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/09/22
Then you may be shooting them with Chinese lead. It's my undertstanding that hardly any, if any at all, ammo companies in the US makes their own lead shot anymore. China imports lead shot like they do tungsten.
The TSS shot isn't Chinese made, it's made here from Chinese components. But I hear you, it's near impossible to avoid what doesn't have a Chinese influence.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/10/22
between government regulation, and corporate greed hard to find much that doesn't have some part or whole made in China
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/10/22
We're screwed....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/10/22
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
The TSS shot isn't Chinese made, it's made here from Chinese components. But I hear you, it's near impossible to avoid what doesn't have a Chinese influence.


I think we're talking about the shot itself. The shot does appear to be chinese-made. I can't imagine making shot here from chinese tungsten when finished shot is so available from china.

Quote
TSS (Tungsten Super Shot) is another nontoxic tungsten-composite type coming from China.


https://shootingsportsman.com/tss-shotshells/

Not that it matters much. Something on or with you on your turkey hunt is from, China.
Finally found where TSS shot is made and you're correct 10Glocks, it's in China. At least the loaded shells are still made here!
Posted By: battue Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/10/22
Many are complaining they can't get Russian primers....and Russia and China are buds....
Posted By: roverboy Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/11/22
Originally Posted by LFC
We're screwed....

Yep, in so many damn ways too.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/11/22
if y'all are just figuring this out y'all are a couple of years late to the party.
As far as I know lead shot is no longer made in the US. At least that was the word 3 years ago at the Grand American Trap Shoot
Posted By: gaswamp Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/18/22
Originally Posted by ShortMagFan
PS - the 20ga is a dream to carry. And with TSS is infinitely more effective than even the best patterning 12s with lead


there are 12ga that are a dream to carry. I would not say infinitely either. Wiinchester long beards lead is is pretty effective
Posted By: gaswamp Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/18/22
Originally Posted by pullit
The turned to powder was his words so who know.
Back to the point, I do think the Long Breads are a hard shell to beat in 12 ga. I have not seen or know anybody that has used them in a 20 ga.


they work fine if you keep your shots under 40 yds
Posted By: keith Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/18/22
TSS shot is unbelievable in how it patterns and kills way out there. Of course you have to play with chokes as Mod or Imp Mod is about as tight as you go.

Another application is TSS for coyotes, and if you live in open areas where shots are at 60-80 yards, this is where you see TSS make some remarkable kills, time after time.

For close range Turkey, 12ga, why in the heck would anyone want to spend the money on TSS? TSS is a special application, and if you want to see turkeys fold up on the fly, TSS will get the job done where lead will just not penetrate....this is where I use most of my TSS on turkey's.
Posted By: humdinger Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
Not to add fuel to the fire...

I was reading my NWTF mag last night and there is a federal ad showing turkey shells and the boxes say... Assembled in America.

I'm fine with that because I always heard where Tungsten shot came from.

It doesn't surprise me on lead shot being made elsewhere after watching water gremlin and its issues.

We live in a global economy and I work for international companies and the china product makes things affordable.

At least federal assembles the shells in my home state.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
I really on the verge of pulling the trigger on a 20 gauge Browning BPS. I don't have a 20 gauge but put 3 boxes of Federal TSS shotshells in my basket yesterday, then took them out. Probably need the gun first. But then again, if I buy the shells, I'll have to buy the gun.
Posted By: humdinger Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I really on the verge of pulling the trigger on a 20 gauge Browning BPS. I don't have a 20 gauge but put 3 boxes of Federal TSS shotshells in my basket yesterday, then took them out. Probably need the gun first. But then again, if I buy the shells, I'll have to buy the gun.



I have a 20 gauge BPS upland that would make a nice turkey gun and I recall it patterns well. Plus I bought a meadowcreek red dot mount I want to see if it fits the rib.

If you like the BPS... buy it. I think they went out of production.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I really on the verge of pulling the trigger on a 20 gauge Browning BPS. I don't have a 20 gauge but put 3 boxes of Federal TSS shotshells in my basket yesterday, then took them out. Probably need the gun first. But then again, if I buy the shells, I'll have to buy the gun.


The way things are now, if you find the shells and are thinking about the gun, you better buy the shells.
Last year I know turkey shells were almost impossible to find. I gave a couple of boxes of 20's to a buddy so he could carry his grandkids hunting.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
BPSs are still in production. I like them a lot. I've owned a couple but foolishly sold them years ago. Both were 12 gauge. One was an early 3 1/2" version with the slightly extended magazine and engraved received. I've been wanting another and a 20 gauge would be great.

I've been watching Ithaca's website to see if they get any Model 37s in stock but they've been out of stock for months now. They do have their 20 gauge Turkey Slayer in stock.
I've had every configuration of the BPS they've evered offered, very nice shotguns. My least favorite to shoot ones were the 12ga 3-1/2" models! The one I regret selling the most was the "Game Gun" model, rifle sights, choke tube barrel, came with the long extended rifled choke tube and a turkey choke tube, engraved receiver with deer and turkey. Had a matching pair of the upland models, a 12 and a 20, both with the engraved receivers. Wouldn't hesitate to get another one if I was so inclined...
Posted By: MOGC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
I really like the BPS but they are a pig. A BPS 20 gauge with a 26" barrel weighs 7 lbs. That is 12 gauge territory and about 1/2 - 3/4 pound too heavy for a 20 gauge hunting gun.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
I like the BPSs. Very well made shotguns. So I found a new one on GunBroker and bought it. I probably pissed some people off becasue there were 14 bids on it and I selected the buy now option. It's the field grade with the walnut stock. 28" barrel.

I also ordered 2 boxes of Federal 20 gauge 3" #9 TSS and a couple of boxes of my old standby Winchester XX #5 3" 20 gauge. I also bought a Carlson's extra full choke tube for shooting lead.

Should be fun.

Edit: Carlsons choke tube for shooting TSS, not lead.
Congrats and enjoy!
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/21/22
Well, Dean, I and my shoulder thank you. My wallet doesn't. But I do.
Posted By: Hogeye Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
I had a 6# 20 gauge and couldn't shoot it worth a darn. Seven pounds is better, for me, especially for a turkey gun. A gun should kill at only one end.

Some people don't like my heavy guns (the lightest is 6.5#). They probably don't like my size 13 boots either. As the postman said, "To each his zone."
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
I am using Indian Creek chokes on my 2 turkey guns. They pattern great with TSS
I'd like to try one of those. I currently have a Tru-Glo and a Carlson's TSS for the 20. I've heard/read good things about the Indian Creek.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
]I have tried a drawer full of others but it's always been the one that comes out on top
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
I'd like to try one of those. I currently have a Tru-Glo and a Carlson's TSS for the 20. I've heard/read good things about the Indian Creek.



Oops, I see I wroite "lead." I got the Carlsons for shooting TSS, not lead.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
Originally Posted by pullit
I am using Indian Creek chokes on my 2 turkey guns. They pattern great with TSS


Years back Indian Creek chokes were splitting barrels.
Posted By: humdinger Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
I like the BPSs. Very well made shotguns. So I found a new one on GunBroker and bought it. I probably pissed some people off becasue there were 14 bids on it and I selected the buy now option. It's the field grade with the walnut stock. 28" barrel.

I also ordered 2 boxes of Federal 20 gauge 3" #9 TSS and a couple of boxes of my old standby Winchester XX #5 3" 20 gauge. I also bought a Carlson's extra full choke tube for shooting lead.

Should be fun.

Edit: Carlsons choke tube for shooting TSS, not lead.



Congrats on the new shotgun. What configuration is it?
Posted By: humdinger Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
Originally Posted by pullit
]I have tried a drawer full of others but it's always been the one that comes out on top


Can you tell me what indian creek 20 gauge was you the best.

My carlson tubes work but Meh...

I'm running a benelli beretta tube btw.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
Originally Posted by humdinger

Congrats on the new shotgun. What configuration is it?



Just a basic Browning BPS Field, blued with walnut stock, Invector + chokes. It's a 28" vent rib barrel. I would have preferred 26" but it is what it is. I prefer 26" or less for a dedicated turkey gun but I'll be using this for more than just turkeys so 28" will be fine.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by pullit
I am using Indian Creek chokes on my 2 turkey guns. They pattern great with TSS


Years back Indian Creek chokes were splitting barrels.


Never had an issue, been using them for over 20 years
Years ago, IC did have an issue with some of the vents on their chokes cracking, but I think they traced it to a bad heat treat batch.
Never heard about any issues with barrels
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/22/22
Originally Posted by humdinger
Originally Posted by pullit
]I have tried a drawer full of others but it's always been the one that comes out on top


Can you tell me what indian creek 20 gauge was you the best.

My carlson tubes work but Meh...

I'm running a benelli beretta tube btw.



What shot and size are you using?
I just picked up the Indian Creek Black Diamond Strike 20 gauge .555" to try out. There's a couple more open ones, but this is the one I kept finding as recommended when using the smaller TSS shot. We'll see how it goes...
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/23/22
Dean, how does your CarlsonTSS pattern #9? I've read good reviews.
Posted By: humdinger Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/23/22
Originally Posted by pullit
Originally Posted by humdinger
Originally Posted by pullit
]I have tried a drawer full of others but it's always been the one that comes out on top


Can you tell me what indian creek 20 gauge was you the best.

My carlson tubes work but Meh...

I'm running a benelli beretta tube btw.



What shot and size are you using?


Federal tss loads #9. 3 inch/ 1 5/8 ounce I think.

I noticed an odd thing though.. I bought these shells at two different times and didnt notice the first batch were 1000 fps where the second batch are 1200 FPS. I'll have to go look at them to see if the slow ones are sold as low recoil aor thfederal is plating with the powder charge due to pressure issues.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/23/22
I too ( like Dean) found that a .555 works great for me with #9 TSS. Some found that a .562 works well for them. I like a "hot core" to my pattern so I went with the .555.
Posted By: Judman Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/24/22
Sounds to me like tss is the bidness!!
The TRUGLO TG187X .565" gave some really good results and is the choke tube I spent the most time with. It was the first one I picked up and tried out. Only a couple through the Carlson's Heavyweight TSS .555" which were a little better. Also wanted to see if I could tell any difference between these 2 choke tubes, as the TRUGLO is ported and the Carlson's is not. I couldn't tell any difference, but I don't have a chrony anymore either, so couldn't test that. I have another TRUGLO, a TG177X that's also .565", but haven't shot it yet. Other than the cost of TSS shells to do all this "testing", I rather enjoy it. I also picked up some of the "shoot and see" targets and plan on finally taking some pictures of them to post. The Indian Creek tube should be here this week and then it's up to the weather when I'll be out trying it. Borrowed a buddy's chrony too, with the promise that if I shoot it, I've bought it! Lol!
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/24/22
I do know that you can over choke TSS and blow the pattern but have using it for a long time now, I am happy with my gun/shell/choke combo and I have not bought a new choke in several years. I load my own TSS due to 1) issues I saw with Hevi Turkey shells back in the day. You would find a shell that patterned great and the next box (different lot#) would not. They changed the wads or hull or whatever and your great pattern would go to crap. The second reason was back when I started shooting TSS, the only way you got a shell was to roll your own as their was nobody loading them commercially. I got tired of not knowing what was in my shell and how it would pattern, so I started loading my own.
I started back before TSS and was buying bags of Hevi Shot. You talk about inconsistent shot size and shapes, it was awful. I then went to using Federal Heavy weight shot and it was much better as far as shot goes in shape and size. You could not buy the shot in bags and I would wait till the season was over and everybody was blowing their stock out for cheap. I would buy 20 or 30 boxes and rob the shot out of the shells (I think I still have a few lbs of that left over) Then TSS showed up and I bought enough hulls/wads/and shot to do me for the rest of my turkey hunting days.
I usually load 20 shells at a time and that will do me 3 or 4 sometimes 5 years before I have to load again. I shoot a shot or two and make sure my gun is still on and everything is good to go. Depending on if I hunt out of state and how well my season in TN goes, I may shoot 3 to 8 shells a year. I have about 2 or 3 shells leftover from last year so I will have to load some more for this year.
I also put a new red dot on my turkey gun this year so I will need a few shells to get that dialed in as well.
I used to go nuts on all the different "turkey ranger" supplies from Ballistic Products up in MN. All their publications too. Slitting the wads in different length slits, 8 point crimp, 6 point crimp, roll crimp with plastic or cardboard overshot cards... on and on... I enjoyed it all. With my 10 bore ML, as many different wad materials I could get, fiber, cardboard, lubed wonder wads, but never plastic as it made such a mess in the barrels with black powder! Fast forward to today, I don't even have any of my MEC shotshell presses anymore, committed to factory loadings, for better or for worse. I'll definitely mess around with the choke tubes and may even get some of the other IC just because. In any event, I've drawn IL and WI tags again for this spring, so my field testing will thankfully continue!
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/24/22
Originally Posted by pullit
I too ( like Dean) found that a .555 works great for me with #9 TSS. Some found that a .562 works well for them. I like a "hot core" to my pattern so I went with the .555.


The Carlsons TSS choke I ordered for my 20 g BPS is .565 Of course, it's the backbored Invector Plus choke system. Looking forward to trying it.

For 12 g, all my guns are either Invector Plus or Ithaca Plus (Ithaca + = Invector +). I have a Browning extended extra full in my Winchester SX4 that seems to be .685. I have a Kicks Gobblin' Thunder in my A5 that is .680. I have a Briley extended in my Ithaca M37 that is .675. Using #5 lead the Ithaca patterns best. There is no detectable difference between the Winchester and A5. The Ithaca is also the only one I have that shoots exactly where I aim it. I'd like to try TSS in my Ithaca but thinkl I might need to back off to the standard full choke.

So what constructions are you using for 12 g TSS? I'm
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/24/22
Originally Posted by LFC
A projectile carries energy based on weight and velocity...a #4 carries way more energy than a smaller lighter weight TSS pellet.

TSS can't be pushed to the velocity lead can because of pressures caused because it doesn't give any.

There's a thing called energy transfer...

The TSS depends not on energy transfer but on the hope that it will poke a bunch of small holes in something vital.

Most any choke will shoot a bunch of small pellets. Usually not so with the bigger shot unless it's coming out of a Winchester Longbeard.

Federal ammo and all the others ammo companies are sucking hind teet with the bigger shot loads coming from Winchester...that's why they're pushing the small shot...pretty easy to see if you've been watching.

The shot lock technology in Winchester Longbeards makes most any choke/gun combination look pretty good.



Keep this in mind while you drool over your fAiry dust sized shot.....
Just like in the movies, fairy dust is some pretty good stuff! Lol!
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/24/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by pullit
I too ( like Dean) found that a .555 works great for me with #9 TSS. Some found that a .562 works well for them. I like a "hot core" to my pattern so I went with the .555.


The Carlsons TSS choke I ordered for my 20 g BPS is .565 Of course, it's the backbored Invector Plus choke system. Looking forward to trying it.

For 12 g, all my guns are either Invector Plus or Ithaca Plus (Ithaca + = Invector +). I have a Browning extended extra full in my Winchester SX4 that seems to be .685. I have a Kicks Gobblin' Thunder in my A5 that is .680. I have a Briley extended in my Ithaca M37 that is .675. Using #5 lead the Ithaca patterns best. There is no detectable difference between the Winchester and A5. The Ithaca is also the only one I have that shoots exactly where I aim it. I'd like to try TSS in my Ithaca but thinkl I might need to back off to the standard full choke.

So what constructions are you using for 12 g TSS? I'm




Never used TSS in a 12 ga but I know several guys that do. Most are using in the .670-.690 range chokes depending on gun/shell/choke combo to get them what they want.
Posted By: Andy3 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/24/22
In my 12 gauge browning cynergy, I'm using .650", with 3" 1.75oz. #9 TSS. I did quite a bit of patterning with that shell, starting with factory full choke and going tighter from there. Each pattern got better and better, as the chokes got tighter.

That shot is so small and hard, I don't think you can "over choke" it. It's a gobbler hammer, for sure!

Andy3
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/25/22
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

You sure you fellers need a 12 gauge stuffed with the magic dust....this little feller swears by the foe tin.
As with most all hunting products , they do exactly what they are intended to do ! and that is separate the sportsman from his hard earned cash buy suggesting he is incapable or inferior unless he spends to have these magical products . Buy all means buy these types of products if that is what it takes to prop up your ability / confidence . I laugh as my friends slays gobblers with hi-brass 2 3/4 #6 out of a full choke.
You still use a flintlock? Or better yet, just pick up a stone from the ground and throw it? You mention friends "slayins" turkeys, have you? Another one chimes in that feels the need to prop themselves up.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
I just got my 20 gauge ammo. It's been 20+ years since I've messed around with a 20 gauge. That shell seems so tiny since all I've handled since then are 12 gauge. My first thought when it came out of the box was "geez, is that even enough?" Oh well, the evidence I've seen is enough to give it a whirl. At the very least, I'll have a nice 20 gauge for small game. I still don't have my gun. It's due to be delivered to my FFL tomorrow and I likely won't pick it up till Friday. And I won't have my Carlsons TSS choke till monday.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
You still use a flintlock? Or better yet, just pick up a stone from the ground and throw it? You mention friends "slayins" turkeys, have you? Another one chimes in that feels the need to prop themselves up.
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
You still use a flintlock? Or better yet, just pick up a stone from the ground and throw it? You mention friends "slayins" turkeys, have you? Another one chimes in that feels the need to prop themselves up.

The shotgun like the turkey call and rifle are no better than the man behind it. I have killed a few and a 1 7/8 load of lead #5's (nitro mag's) from a x-full choke is my preferred load. At the end of the day don't fall prey by jumping on board to buy a unnessary product that some ass in a corporate board is hopeing you buy as much as possible so he gets richer while you get broke,
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
Some of us actually enjoy trying new things. If I was a sustenance hunter, I'd find the cheapest way that works and stick with it. But the vast majority of my turkeys come from the grocery store. The ones I've hunted I didn't hunt out of necessity. I enjoy interacting with nature and owning guns and trying new things. Is there no merit to that? You're posting on a board that is really nothing but that.
Originally Posted by leadfeather
Originally Posted by DeanAnderson
You still use a flintlock? Or better yet, just pick up a stone from the ground and throw it? You mention friends "slayins" turkeys, have you? Another one chimes in that feels the need to prop themselves up.

The shotgun like the turkey call and rifle are no better than the man behind it. I have killed a few and a 1 7/8 load of lead #5's (nitro mag's) from a x-full choke is my preferred load. At the end of the day don't fall prey by jumping on board to buy a unnessary product that some ass in a corporate board is hopeing you buy as much as possible so he gets richer while you get broke,


That's your opinion, and you're more than welcome to it. And yes, your set-up will, and does work, no doubt. As stated, some of us like to try new stuff and mess around with it. I made a living as an electrician. I worked on voltages up to 15,000 volts. I appreciate new and improved tools. Nothing rises your situational awareness like working in 3,000 amp 480 volt live switchgear. Can it still be done with the old tools? Absolutely. But there's a place for the new tools too...
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
When I first started spring turkey hunting I used a New Haven Model 600 (A Montgomery Wards branded Mossberg 500) with a 28 inch plain barrel and a poly choke. I used #4 or #6 high brass lead field loads. That's all I had at the time. I used my Lynch World Champion box call and wore Army BDUs. I used that wax face camo stick the Army used to use that was light grean on one end and dark green on the other and that you had to heat with a lighter to put on, and scrub like hell to get off. I even had a couple of successful hunts. It worked. Glad I'm graduated from that, though.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
It really boils down to this, Use what you like and be happy". I could care less if you use TSS, Hevi Shot, Heavy Shot, lead, bow and arrow, or rock and a sling shot. I found what works for me and make me happy. The good Lord has blessed me and allowed me to kill turkey and put them in the freezer to feed me and my family and friends.
Hunt with whatever gets you results that you are happy with. If you want to try something new, great try it, if not so be it.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
If anyonbe is looking, MidwayUSA has 20 gauge Federal TSS #9 available and Natchez has 20 gauge Federal TSS #7 available. I ordered 2 boxes of #7 from Natchez. I also picked up some 20 gauge Winchester XX 3" #5. Will be interesting to see how they pattern.
It's -11° here this morning, just need a little bit better weather! Lol!
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
That's a little nipply. It's 36° here.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
At 10:04 the temp is 19 degrees here
Posted By: Hogeye Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/26/22
A couple of thousand turkeys are killed in Missouri with arrows every October. Some archery deer hunters buy turkey licenses in case one happens by while they are deer hunting. My wife's cousin arrowed a coyote that way once; the coyote was trailing a doe with a late season fawn and he did them a favor. Good times, if you like being in the woods in October (I do).

In Spring, though, turkey hunting is a shotgun sport.
Posted By: MOGC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/28/22
In Missouri the archery deer/turkey permit is all one unit that gives two deer and two turkey permits at a $19 cost for residents. Additional antlerless deer permits are unlimited and cost $7 each. The fall bowhunter can kill two turkeys of either sex. The shotgun fall turkey season runs the entire month of October and a fall shotgunner can kill two birds of either sex. Again, $19 permit for residents. In the spring season a bowhunter may use a bow to kill spring gobblers, no problem there. The spring gobbler turkey season runs about three weeks, two gobblers may be taken and a $19 permit for residents is required. All permits are over the counter, no draw. Missouri's seasons and methods are pretty simple and inexpensive overall.

With that said, our turkey flock population has tanked and birds are becoming scarce and much harder to come by. Wet nesting seasons, nest raiding predators, increased wild hogs, timber management... it hasn't been good hunting for years now. I'm old enough to remember the late 80's-through the early 2000's when it was no big deal to go to public ground and hear a dozen gobblers sound off within walking distance and with little hunting pressure to deal with. Our hunting hasn't been like that for at least a decade and seems to be steadily worsening.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/28/22
Here in Virginia, turkeys can be harvested with just about anything, except in sping. In spring, shotguns must be loaded with shot no larger than #2. But a hunter can still use other weapons if county ordinances allow it. In Virginia, turkeys are "big game" and a few counties are "no rifles for big game" counties. Others are "no rifles for deer" counties. And still others are "no rifles larger than .22 caliber for hunting" counties. All the counties I hunt, rifles and archery are perfectly legal for spring turkey. So are airguns.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/29/22
It came early.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/29/22
man you are set to go, get you some big paper and let it eat
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
At $10 bucks or more a bite......eating might get pretty slim.
The Indian Creek .555" is ready to go, just need a little better weather than what we've been having. For those 100 yard shots with the magic #9 fairy dust, I had a flat spot milled on the receiver to mount the Burris FastFire3, keeps it low and rock solid. I didn't like the Burris mount that goes between the receiver and stock.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
If anyone is interested, MidwayUSA has 3" 12G #7/#9 Federal TSS available. 1 box limit.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019776962?pid=564285#read-reviews

Midway also has 20G TSS available.

Mack's Prairie Wings has 20G Apex and Federal TSS available now.

https://www.mackspw.com/shooting/shotgun-ammunition/20-gauge

Natchex has Federal TSS 20G, too.

Macks has the best prices.

Spring is almost here.

Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Boy that's a heck of a deal....

Dean what happens when you battery dies on that toy site.
Always keep a fresh one along. And the front bead is co-witnessed with the sight! Lol! I do have an aversion to anything with a battery while hunting. Has to do with that Murphy's law thing...
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Originally Posted by LFC
I got curious so I asked this question on Apex facebook page.

This is from their facebook page.


My question to

Apex Ammunition on their Facebook site.


"I hear all the claims....lets hear the facts. What's the actual weight of a TSS size 9 or 10 pellet ?"


Apex Ammunition's reply to me...Quote

"9's weigh 1.2grs. 9.5's weigh 1gr.

9's are the perfect TSS pellet size. More energy than lead 4's and equal energy to hevi shot 5's".


My reply to Apex...

"A lead #4 pellet weighs 3.30 grains....a lead #7 shot weighs 1.50 grains....both substantially more weight than the smaller TSS pellet. Energy is figured by computing weight and velocity. There is no way a #9 TSS pellet weighing a third of a #4 lead can have more energy than a lead #4 shot moving at the same velocity.....fact is a lead #7 has more energy than a TSS #9 size shot moving at equal velocity".

I was quickly shown the door.....


This thread is about the fallacies of TSs....
In all seriousness, using a piece of electronics hunting does have its concerns. What if it goes out, stops working? At least with the Burris, the battery compartment is on top, don't have to remove it from the gun to change it out. Not all of them are like that. And I do practice shooting it without it turned on in case there is a failure. And just because, I am going to set up a 100 yard target and see what happens on paper
No, this thread is supposed to be about facts vs fiction. Not expressed opinions...
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Why stop at 100 yards....

I laid out factual pellet weights.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
fact is TSS works, if people believe it or not, is their issue
First hand experience with about 30 birds give or take, and witnessed another dozen or so.
Not opinion, first hand knowledge, lead works to, first hand experience as well, so does Hevi13, and Heavyweight all first hand experience
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Originally Posted by LFC
A projectile carries energy based on weight and velocity...a #4 carries way more energy than a smaller lighter weight TSS pellet.

TSS can't be pushed to the velocity lead can because of pressures caused because it doesn't give any.

There's a thing called energy transfer...

The TSS depends not on energy transfer but on the hope that it will poke a bunch of small holes in something vital.

Most any choke will shoot a bunch of small pellets. Usually not so with the bigger shot unless it's coming out of a Winchester Longbeard.

Federal ammo and all the others ammo companies are sucking hind teet with the bigger shot loads coming from Winchester...that's why they're pushing the small shot...pretty easy to see if you've been watching.

The shot lock technology in Winchester Longbeards makes most any choke/gun combination look pretty good.



Tell me what I posted that is not fact.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
I think one thing you are missing is the fact that TSS does not deform like lead on impact. It is much like steel shot vs lead when it comes to duck hunting. Steel shot blows thru a duck like TSS does a turkey head. Lead tends to flatten out giving it a bigger frontal area.
I can lay TSS on a steel table and hit it with a hammer and it is still round, try that with lead
100 is a nice round number, no need for further... until I see results, if any. All the different pellet weights have been posted, by you and others, there's no dispute there. TSS shot has its limits same as lead shot. Only argument I'll make for TSS shot, is that it makes the sub-bores a viable option, still up to the user to know what they're doing with whatever they choose to use. No matter what, people are people. There's some you're glad they do what they do and there's some you'd wish would do something else...
Posted By: Andy3 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
This spells it out pretty clearly......penetration energy, per pellet. Steel vs lead vs hevishot vs tss......based on density. Then multiply the effect by higher pellet count.

https://www.super18tungstenshot.com/blogs/education/what-makes-tss-so-effective

Andy3
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Originally Posted by pullit
I think one thing you are missing is the fact that TSS does not deform like lead on impact. It is much like steel shot vs lead when it comes to duck hunting. Steel shot blows thru a duck like TSS does a turkey head. Lead tends to flatten out giving it a bigger frontal area.
I can lay TSS on a steel table and hit it with a hammer and it is still round, try that with lead


Maybe you're starting to get it.....Lead transfers more of it's carried energy to the target.

Killing is not all about penetration if it was there would be no need for soft point or hollow point ammo.

When a bullet (in this case a pellet) zips right through something and isn't capable of changing shape it takes it carries a lot of its energy out with it....

That's the reason we don't hunt with steel jacket or solid rifle ammo....true placed in the right spot a solid will kill.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
oh I got it, but a bullet ( or shot) thru the brain vs one that stops in the brain, has no real difference
The fact that due to pattern density, means that more than likely you are not going to put just one pellet thru the brain
Good read Andy3. Unless you're just dead set against using TSS.... which is fine.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Typical TSS propaganda....

True TSS is another option where environmentally safe shot is required if you can afford it....the term "environmentally safe" is the only reason TSS exists.

I believe the term "environmental safe" is just more liberal crap similar to global warming....remember 30 plus years ago the same environmentalist claimed that we would be in an Ice Age by now ?
Lol!
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
good read
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Is there such a thing as too much pattern density ?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
that is why you can play with your choke, get the pattern density that makes you happy.
Much like choosing the type shot that makes you happy.

Saying TSS does not work is not fact but is fiction and is in fact a state of denial
Posted By: Andy3 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
[quote=pullit]that is why you can play with your choke, get the pattern density that makes you happy.
Much like choosing the type shot that makes you happy.

Saying TSS does not work is not fact but is fiction and is in fact a state of denial[/quote

And that would make you, a .......

L ost
F ucking
C ause

grin

Andy3
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22

I look at you guys as a lost cause.

Originally Posted by pullit
that is why you can play with your choke, get the pattern density that makes you happy.
Much like choosing the type shot that makes you happy.

Saying TSS does not work is not fact but is fiction and is in fact a state of denial


I don't recall saying TSS would "not work"....a #7 lead pellet "that weighs more than a TSS #9" will also work.

All any one wants to talk about is pellet density, density, density.
No lost causes, only overly enthusiastic open debate! Lol!
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by LFC
A projectile carries energy based on weight and velocity...a #4 carries way more energy than a smaller lighter weight TSS pellet.

TSS can't be pushed to the velocity lead can because of pressures caused because it doesn't give any.

There's a thing called energy transfer...

The TSS depends not on energy transfer but on the hope that it will poke a bunch of small holes in something vital.

Most any choke will shoot a bunch of small pellets. Usually not so with the bigger shot unless it's coming out of a Winchester Longbeard.

Federal ammo and all the others ammo companies are sucking hind teet with the bigger shot loads coming from Winchester...that's why they're pushing the small shot...pretty easy to see if you've been watching.

The shot lock technology in Winchester Longbeards makes most any choke/gun combination look pretty good.



Tell me what I posted that is not fact.


Your very first statement is factually incorrect. Kinetic energy is based on mass and velocity. Weight is not mass, it's only part of mass. Mass a function of weight and volume.

A small denser object can have the same mass as a larger less dense object. A smaller denser object can also have more mass than a larger less dense object.

So if the very first assertion is factually incorrect, why go on reading the rest of your "facts?"


Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Originally Posted by LFC

I look at you guys as a lost cause


Don't see us guys as a lost cause, unless the cause is to go back to lead. I guess you care more about what I hunt with than I care about what you hunt with.

Most if not all on here have first hand experience with TSS. You on the other hand have never shot it and have no first hand experience with it. (your own words from another of your TSS threads)
I really don't care what you shoot. but this is the third thread you have started about how TSS is not good or does not do what it claims.
The guy I hunt with is/was a lead shooter up till 2 years ago. After seeing over and over me not only killing my birds dead right there but seeing me kill 2 birds that he wounded with lead. 2 years ago with no encourage from me, he up and switched to TSS.
i, same goes for you, do/did not care what he hunted with. He saw first hand what TSS would do and switched. He was the last person I would have thought would have swapped as he is very old school and commented several time on how his lead shell worked.

Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Just got my 20G Federal TSS #7 delievered today. Thanks FedEx, for working on Sundays. Yay for me.
Nice. Please share pattern results.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
let's see the patterns
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/30/22
Haven't shot it yet. My club's outdoor range was closed yesterday due to snow and I couldn't go today. But as soon as I do, I'll post it. I got some Winchester XX 20G 3" #5, too. I want to pattern the TSS #9 and #7 and XX #5 at 40 yards out of the same choke. Likely next weekend if weather permits.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/31/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by LFC
A projectile carries energy based on weight and velocity...a #4 carries way more energy than a smaller lighter weight TSS pellet.

TSS can't be pushed to the velocity lead can because of pressures caused because it doesn't give any.

There's a thing called energy transfer...

The TSS depends not on energy transfer but on the hope that it will poke a bunch of small holes in something vital.

Most any choke will shoot a bunch of small pellets. Usually not so with the bigger shot unless it's coming out of a Winchester Longbeard.

Federal ammo and all the others ammo companies are sucking hind teet with the bigger shot loads coming from Winchester...that's why they're pushing the small shot...pretty easy to see if you've been watching.

The shot lock technology in Winchester Longbeards makes most any choke/gun combination look pretty good.



Tell me what I posted that is not fact.


Your very first statement is factually incorrect. Kinetic energy is based on mass and velocity. Weight is not mass, it's only part of mass. Mass a function of weight and volume.

A small denser object can have the same mass as a larger less dense object. A smaller denser object can also have more mass than a larger less dense object.

So if the very first assertion is factually incorrect, why go on reading the rest of your "facts?"




One minute you're down on the guy claiming deer kills with #4 TSS now it seems you're saying #9 TSS is like a black hole....hard to defend both pieces of a rotten pie.

Here's a definition of Kenetic energy I Googled up quote:

"Kinetic energy is a form of energy that an object or a particle has by reason of its motion. If work, which transfers energy, is done on an object by applying a net force, the object speeds up and thereby gains kinetic energy."

Fact....once TSS exits the muzzle it ain't getting any faster.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/31/22
Given the same muzzle velocity and resistance, a smaller but denser pellet is not slowing as quickly as a larger pellet with less density, either.

"One minute you're down on the guy claiming deer kills with #4 TSS now it seems you're saying #9 TSS is like a black hole....hard to defend both pieces of a rotten pie."

Didn't say that anywhere. Physics is physics and as far as I know neither lead nor TSS defy the laws of such.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/31/22
Well I will agree with you one thing, TSS does not speed up once it leaves the barrel, but then again neither does lead.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/31/22
But the heavier projectile retains velocity longer and retains more energy.

Case in point it takes 3+ #9 tss pellets to weigh as much as 1 copper lead #4.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/31/22
So why are you using copper plated #4, why not use plain old lead #4, I will bet it is to increase penetration. Once again, redneck ballistic gel of roofing tin, shoot it with lead #4 and TSS #9 and tell me what happens. I have told you what happens but I guess you don't believe me. Try it for yourself and see first hand what the outcome is.
Don't read it, don't do the "I think," I feel" crap see it for yourself first hand.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/31/22
I don't hunt turkeys wearing roofing tin jackets....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 01/31/22
Originally Posted by LFC
But the heavier projectile retains velocity longer and retains more energy.



Not necessarily. There's other factors at play other than weight. Mass and velocity is key. Since we're talking spheres, projectile shape is moot. When it comes to spheres, and given the same initial velocity, and the same resistances, the sphere with more mass will retain it's momentum longer.

Again, weight is only part of mass. Mass is a function of weight and volume.

All this is beside the point. Pullit is right. It's a long decided issue. If you don't want to believe it, don't. But people that use TSS confirm what physics tells us.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/01/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by LFC
But the heavier projectile retains velocity longer and retains more energy.



Not necessarily. There's other factors at play other than weight. Mass and velocity is key. Since we're talking spheres, projectile shape is moot. When it comes to spheres, and given the same initial velocity, and the same resistances, the sphere with more mass will retain it's momentum longer.

Again, weight is only part of mass. Mass is a function of weight and volume.

All this is beside the point. Pullit is right. It's a long decided issue. If you don't want to believe it, don't. But people that use TSS confirm what physics tells us.


Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Those little pellets are still subject to the laws of physics.


I recall this from your last physics lesson....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/01/22
Write it down since you don't seem to be remembering it.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/01/22

Food for thought....

Ever notice how guys the that shoot TSS all the sudden become Rocket Scientist and Physic prOfessors ?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/01/22
I don't know about the rest of the guys but I am a Rocket Surgeon.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/01/22
My degree is in common sense that's why I don't shoot fAiry dust sized shot a turkeys
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
This has been a useful thread. Despite his best effort and flawed physics theories, LFC gave precisely zero sound reason not to try TSS. On the contrary, Dean and Pullit supplied reasoned, sound data and first hand accounts. I've now accumulated 4 boxes of 20g TSS #9 shells and 2 boxes of TSS #7 shells. Weather permitting, I'll try them out of Tinkerbell this weekend.
If you can, please post results. I'm waiting for better weather to shoot through the Indian Creek I just picked up and for the first time, will be shooting at reactive targets, not my old job blueprints. Also received notification that I drew my area for spring turkey in Wisconsin.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
I will post results.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
I have my shotgun that I have hunted with for years and already have the choke and shell recipe for it but I put a new red dot on it and need to sight it in. When I do, I will try and post some pictures of it as well.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
This has been a useful thread. Despite his best effort and flawed physics theories, LFC gave precisely zero sound reason not to try TSS. On the contrary, Dean and Pullit supplied reasoned, sound data and first hand accounts. I've now accumulated 4 boxes of 20g TSS #9 shells and 2 boxes of TSS #7 shells. Weather permitting, I'll try them out of Tinkerbell this weekend.


The way you're sounding on that diaphragm caller I can see why you feel the need to stretch the shooting distance

You should try some #4 TSS on deer too....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Gotta love LFC. He's the cool guy that literally claims to be an expert, criticizes everyone, but hasn't posted a single video of himself doing what he criticizes me for, or pointed to a single article he's written, or a book, or any company he owns or with whom he's on staff. 7 birds a year, many while on crutches. You'd think with that kind of skill he'd be well known. But nothing. Just baseless criticizm. He just brags and criticizes. That's really his only contribution. He's like the annoyingly bragadocious and baffoonish brother in law no one in the family really likes but tolerates because somehow he scammed a nice sister into marrying him. He's the kind that shows up at the family event and everyone rolls their eyes but smiles at him while thinking that they wish that dick didn't come. The kind of guy who is really annoying and whose wife has a secret boyfriend, and everyone kind of knows it but won't tell him or condemn her because, you know, she's martied to a guy like LFC and they all undertstand. So they just let it roll.

LFC is like the Campfire's Cartman from South Park. He thinks he's cool no matter what.

LOL. I'm just fuqkin' with you, LFC. You cool. You cool. We all know you cool. Yer still the cool kid.







Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
This has been a useful thread. Despite his best effort and flawed physics theories, LFC gave precisely zero sound reason not to try TSS. On the contrary, Dean and Pullit supplied reasoned, sound data and first hand accounts. I've now accumulated 4 boxes of 20g TSS #9 shells and 2 boxes of TSS #7 shells. Weather permitting, I'll try them out of Tinkerbell this weekend.


The way you're sounding on that diaphragm caller I can see why you feel the need to stretch the shooting distance

You should try some #4 TSS on deer too....


I didn't know I was going to hurt your wittle feewings
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Gotta love LFC. He's the cool guy that literally claims to be an expert, criticizes everyone, but hasn't posted a single video of himself doing what he criticizes me for, or pointed to a single article he's written, or a book, or any company he owns or with whom he's on staff. 7 birds a year, many while on crutches. You'd think with that kind of skill he'd be well known. But nothing. Just baseless criticizm. He just brags and criticizes. That's really his only contribution. He's like the annoyingly bragadocious and baffoonish brother in law no one in the family really likes but tolerates because somehow he scammed a nice sister into marrying him. He's the kind that shows up at the family event and everyone rolls their eyes but smiles at him while thinking that they wish that dick didn't come. The kind of guy who is really annoying and whose wife has a secret boyfriend, and everyone kind of knows it but won't tell him or condemn her because, you know, she's martied to a guy like LFC and they all undertstand. So they just let it roll.



I guess every family has one of those....lol
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
And I think we just met two of them.

You the know the two dumb sum beeitchs that think they know it all and really know nothing about nothing.

One thing I have noticed is guys that shoot TSS get pretty nasty when you kid them about their wittle bitty ballz.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
LOL. Like I said, you're cool, LFC. We ALL have nothing but the highest respect for you. You've earned it. We all know you know it all.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
At least i know something... .it's pretty evident you don't know Jack chit.
Posted By: TD5427 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Again, weight is only part of mass. Mass is a function of weight and volume.

All this is beside the point. Pullit is right. It's a long decided issue. If you don't want to believe it, don't. But people that use TSS confirm what physics tells us.


Call me crazy for jumping into this thread for my first post, but in all fairness, I don’t think LFC’s physics theories are as flawed as you claimed several posts back. In fact, your comment “Again, weight is only part of mass. Mass is a function of weight and volume” couldn’t be more incorrect. Mass is a function of how much matter of a given density is in an object of some volume. Weight is simply the effect of gravity on mass. One pellet of #4 lead does weigh more than one pellet of #9 TSS because, despite the higher density of the TSS, the volume of the #9 pellet is just not enough to result in it weighing more than the less dense but larger #4. Like LFC, I too don’t believe there is any way a #9 TSS has more energy than a #4 lead if the two pellets are travelling at the same velocity. That is the point he tried to make in the first post before this thread evolved. So if you’re talking one pellet vs. one pellet, I’m going to side with LFC but that’s just my opinion and I know what everyone says about opinions.

On the flip side, I won’t disagree with what others have said regarding the penetration of the lighter #9 pellet because it does require less energy for it to penetrate a surface than the larger pellet because of the difference in diameters/surface areas. How many #9s does it take to impart the same energy on a turkey’s head as one #4? I don’t know but at some point it can be accomplished with pattern density which seems to be a large part of the TSS argument. As a turkey hunter it's the long range shooting part of defending TSS that makes me cringe. I used to shoot Hevi-shot and Nitro Ray’s shells but don’t anymore. Some of what I heard about the pressures generated by the Nitros, whether true or not, scared me enough I quit shooting them and went back to lead.

At the end of the day I personally don’t care what anyone else shoots but I am waiting to hear LFC’s response about when he thinks he might feel the need to go to work for someone as a prostaffer to build some turkey hunting/calling/call making credibility to help sell one or two of his calls.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Originally Posted by TD5427
Like LFC, I too don’t believe there is any way a #9 TSS has more energy than a #4 lead if the two pellets are travelling at the same velocity.


They don't, at the same velocity. There's plenty of online calculators out there that show this is correct. For instance at 1100 fps, a #9 will have 4.5 joules of energy, a #7 TSS will have 7.31 joules of energy, and a #4 lead will have 9.4 joules. All at 1100 fps. But there's more TSS shot for given weight, and TSS, according to published data, indicates it retains its velocity and energy better than lead.

So, at the muzzle, pellet to pellet, LFC is right. 30, 40, 50 yards out, they aren't traveling at the same velocity anymore.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
There goes Professor Joule'en again.....talking out his azz.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
This has been a useful thread. Despite his best effort and flawed physics theories, LFC gave precisely zero sound reason not to try TSS. On the contrary, Dean and Pullit supplied reasoned, sound data and first hand accounts. I've now accumulated 4 boxes of 20g TSS #9 shells and 2 boxes of TSS #7 shells. Weather permitting, I'll try them out of Tinkerbell this weekend.


The way you're sounding on that diaphragm caller I can see why you feel the need to stretch the shooting distance

You should try some #4 TSS on deer too....


Heck you might ought to get you a 10 Guage and stuff it with TSS....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/02/22
Originally Posted by LFC
There goes Professor Joule'en again.....talking out his azz.


Got anything to suggest otherwise? It's interesting that you've concluded TSS doesn't work yet admit you've never tried it.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
I never said that it didnt work actually i praised it......

QUOTE:

"TSS is not covered by the laws of physics....

Once TSS leaves the muzzle it defies gravity......it's more aerodynamic in it's 40 yard journey than a fatter lead pellet.....TSS some how gains energy as it slows down.....TSS has heat seeking powers that no other pellet posses if your aim is off a little it doesn't matter once on it's mission it can't be stopped......TSS is able to leap over and around tall trees in a single blast.....so powerfull is TSS it can shoot clean through big oaks and kill the turkey.....

I know a feller that carries a small bag of TSS dust in his pocket and if the turkey gets in close enough he sprinkles a little in the palm of his hand hand gives a stout blow had just the sight of it will kill a turkey.

That's how TSS got the name "Magic Fairy Dust".....

Only thing more potent on a gobbler than TSS is the copper plated #4 Kryptonite I shoot out of my SBE."
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
I stand corrected.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
Originally Posted by LFC
[b]

Only thing more potent on a gobbler than TSS is the copper plated #4 Kryptonite I shoot out of my SBE."


Got it, if you use it, then it is the best.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
Same could be said for you.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
Originally Posted by LFC
Same could be said for you.


Not really, I like what I like and could care less if you like it or what you or anyone else uses. Show me one place that I said you have to use TSS or you can't kill turkey.
I know first hand that lead, Hevi, Heavy Weight, and TSS kills. I have used them all, I just like TSS for my hunting
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
For a such a carefree guy you sure spent a lot of time trying to argue with the facts I posted.....

Do you by chance use decoys and shoot turkeys out of enclosed blinds ?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
You are the one talking about (this is the 3rd thread you started on the subject) something that you know nothing about except what you hear and read. Go get some first hand experience and lets talk then.
I like what I like and you like what you like it is easy as that.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
I started two threads one about facts the other about showing patterns try and pay attention
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/03/22
Originally Posted by LFC
I started two threads one about facts the other about showing patterns try and pay attention


My mistake, you did not start the other thread, I am sorry and I recant my statement.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/04/22
You and your side kick need to pay attention.....
Posted By: JRS3 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/12/22
I just got Apex 3” 12ga # 8s that I’m going to pattern soon. I wanted #9s but they were sold out. I’m eager to see how these shoot. I will report back.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Back in the day I kilt a train load of woolly Mammouth in Mississippi with a single pellet of #9 TSs magic fAiry dust out of a blowgun...had to stop shooting it because it was shooting clean through one Mammoth and busting the tuskis on another one 100 yards behind it....
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by LFC

The way you're sounding on that diaphragm caller I can see why you feel the need to stretch the shooting distance

You should try some #4 TSS on deer too....



Wait, wait, wait. I just saw this. And you are criticizing my calling? I find it terribly ironic that you "make" calls and can't play the calls you make. You know, when you yelp on a turkey call, it's supposed to sound like a hen turkey yelping, not sound like a dog being whipped.



Holy effing hell.
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by LFC

The way you're sounding on that diaphragm caller I can see why you feel the need to stretch the shooting distance

You should try some #4 TSS on deer too....



Wait, wait, wait. I just saw this. And you are criticizing my calling? I find it terribly ironic that you "make" calls and can't play the calls you make. You know, when you yelp on a turkey call, it's supposed to sound like a hen turkey yelping, not sound like a dog being whipped.



Holy effing hell.





OUCH................... !!!

grin grin grin
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
"Ain't heard a gobble all damn season." With calling like that, no wonder. The turkeys are over the ridge saying to one another, "Listen to that poor dog. Must be getting whipped again." I agree, your calling has "gone sour."

[video:youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/9rO6xNMvh4E[/video]

I guess not hearing gobbles and calling like an injured dog is the trick to racking up 30 birds a year.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
LFCs calls need to come with a can of WD40.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Ha...ha...haaa
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
You do make some pretty calls, though.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Here's a riddle for you yOder.....

What do you call a guy that claims he's been paid by the turkey hunting and choke tube industries for two decades won't tell who paid him and hides behind a bogus user name on the internet ?
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
"Ain't heard a gobble all damn season." With calling like that, no wonder. The turkeys are over the ridge saying to one another, "Listen to that poor dog. Must be getting whipped again." I agree, you calling has "gone sour."

[video:youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/9rO6xNMvh4E[/video]

I guess not hearing gobbles and calling like an injured dog is the trick to racking up 30 birds a year.


grin grin grin grin

You on a ROLL, this morning, Glocks !!!!!
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Here's a riddle for you yOder.....

What do you call a guy that claims he's been paid by the turkey hunting and choke tube industries for two decades won't tell who paid him and hides behind a bogus user name on the internet ?

Just answer the riddle yoderbOy
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
A bigger riddle is how someone can call themselves a turkey call maker and not be able to call better than that.

LFC, I know you said you "ain't no Grand National caller," and I wholeheartedly agree. But how many of your calls, and which ones, have been used by people that actually can call to win a catergory in the Grand Nationals, or any other calling contest? I know, I know, you said the Grand Nationals are stupid. But a big time mean turkey call maker like yourself who bags 30 birds a year despite atrocious calling and "not hearing a gobble all season" must have some claim to make about their calls.
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
A bigger riddle is how someone can call themselves a turkey call maker and not be able to call better than that.


You pose a VERY good question.

Originally Posted by 10Glocks
LFC, I know you said you "ain't no Grand National caller," and I wholeheartedly agree.


Quite possibly winning the internet for the understatement of the day. grin
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
"All season" was only two days in....that video was made as a joke to my buddies wife.

A trumpet call I made called the Green Hornet was used to win the NWTF Champion of Champions contest by people like Preston Pittman, Walter Parrott, Chris Parrish and a few others.

After hearing your video it's understandable that you wouldn't know what a turkey call should sound like....

You should stick to friction style calls because you're tone deaf.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
30 turkeys a year and "ain't heard a gobble all season." So, what's in the big bag slung over your back? I'll take 3 guesses: 1) a blind and some decoys, 2) a morning supply of Depends, 3) corn (for those birds that won't respond to your catterwalling and won't gobble "all season."

You know I'm just messing with you. You can't be the "meanest turkey call maker on earth" and dish it out and not be able to take it.

And again, come on down to Powhatan. You know some people there and there's some pretty decent public land. I'll call for you and you can shoot. wink And then we'll cruise to Goochland and have some beer https://www.lickingholecreek.com/

Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
One thing about me I'm not a dam phoney like yer running mate Yoder409.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
You aren't a phony. I'm just teasing you. Yoder isn't either. But if he was, who cares. He just doesn't respond to harrassment or challenges. He is UppyurAZ and in your head. Why do you care so much? Let it go. Why not just relax, make a home at this forum, and don't get crazy like you have on other forums that got you banned. Just relax. Share your knowledge and help guys like me that are still learning. Make is so people actually want you here. Make it so people wonder where you are when you don't post, not breathe a sigh of relief.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
He is the guy that made the claim that he has "been paid by the turkey hunting and choke tube industry for two decades".

I see it one of two ways....he's ashamed of it.....or he was just flat out lying.

He needs to come clean.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
He doesn't "need" to do anything. Relax and let it go.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
I detest a phony trust me in 30 years of NWTF'n I met more than my share.

I ain't letting it go.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Suit yourself. You got to much good stuff to share to eat up this forum with challenges to Yoder.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
All he needs to do is tell us what two companies in the "turkey hunting and choke tube industries have been paying him for over two decades"....

I'm ready to eat some crow
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
LFC
I agree with the above 10Glocks post, but look at it this way. If you were right and Yoder was lying, what difference would it make? Don't see him being ashamed or he would not have mentioned it to start with. There is another option you may not have thought about and that is, that he feels no reason to prove himself to you or anyone else.
I did not have to show you a picture of my TSS after you called BS on me, but I did. No big deal if you believed me or not but I decided to post a picture. Did I have to, no but I did.
As 10Glocks said, let it go and be a part of the forum where people want to learn.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by LFC
All he needs to do is tell us what two companies in the "turkey hunting and choke tube industries have been paying him for over two decades"....

I'm ready to eat some crow


He's not proving it to just me.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Here are a few I rolled up this morning. I have a new red dot and figure I will burn 3 or 4 getting it sighted in.

Here is my drill press and the vise for my pixie dust loads

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Some in process of being roll crimped

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

And all ready to go sprinkle their magic on turkey heads near and far....(as long as far is about 40 yards, not 70 yards like some claim)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Good stuff !!!!

#9 shot ??
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Yes #9 "pixie dust"
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
10-4

Have you chronographed them ?? Just for curiosity's sake ??
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Nice drill press - look like old school quality machinery.
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
A bigger riddle is how someone can call themselves a turkey call maker and not be able to call better than that.

LFC, I know you said you "ain't no Grand National caller," and I wholeheartedly agree. But how many of your calls, and which ones, have been used by people that actually can call to win a catergory in the Grand Nationals, or any other calling contest? I know, I know, you said the Grand Nationals are stupid. But a big time mean turkey call maker like yourself who bags 30 birds a year despite atrocious calling and "not hearing a gobble all season" must have some claim to make about their calls.
The Amish here make some damn good turkey calls. They sure as hell ain't on the internet beating their chests about it. I don't even think they advertise the fact and only sell them locally.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by Yoder409
10-4

Have you chronographed them ?? Just for curiosity's sake ??


No but a buddy did (same load different gun) it was 1275 best as I remember. Been using the same load for several years.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Nice drill press - look like old school quality machinery.


Thanks, it's old like me....lol
Originally Posted by pullit
Here are a few I rolled up this morning. I have a new red dot and figure I will burn 3 or 4 getting it sighted in.

Here is my drill press and the vise for my pixie dust loads

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Some in process of being roll crimped

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

And all ready to go sprinkle their magic on turkey heads near and far....(as long as far is about 40 yards, not 70 yards like some claim)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Why would anybody load that rediculously expensive TSS just to shoot turkeys at 40 yards when lead works just fine at that range ?
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
because I can
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by pullit
Originally Posted by Yoder409
10-4

Have you chronographed them ?? Just for curiosity's sake ??


No but a buddy did (same load different gun) it was 1275 best as I remember. Been using the same load for several years.


If that's a 1 1/2 oz load, that is rolling right along !!! With 18 gram shot, you have yourself one HAMMER of a load !!!
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by pullit
because I can


Well played !!!!! grin
Posted By: Teal Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by pullit
because I can


Perfect...
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Those crimps look better than Federal's
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Those crimps look better than Federal's


No joke !!!!

Those are some FINE looking finished rounds !!
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Thinking about taking my 1911 .45 ACP loaded with TSS turkey hunting. Thoughts? That's enough capacity, ain't it?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Thinking about taking my 1911 .45 ACP loaded with TSS turkey hunting. Thoughts? That's enough capacity, ain't it?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]





I'd say if you keep your shots inside 50 yards................. grin
Originally Posted by pullit
because I can
Whoopy doo. Wasting of money and time for no practical gain.. Good plan.
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by pullit
because I can
Whoopy doo. Wasting of money and time for no practical gain.. Good plan.


Just curious.............

Do you own anything more than a .22LR, a 12 gauge and a .30-'06 ?? Pretty much, anything beyond THAT is a waste of time and money for no practical gain............except that you can.

P.S. Hope your vehicle tops out at 75 mph, too. Waste of time and money............you know.

wink grin
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/15/22
Originally Posted by Yoder409
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Those crimps look better than Federal's


No joke !!!!

Those are some FINE looking finished rounds !!


I use a Geap roll crimp
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Yoder409
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by pullit
because I can
Whoopy doo. Wasting of money and time for no practical gain.. Good plan.


Just curious.............

Do you own anything more than a .22LR, a 12 gauge and a .30-'06 ?? Pretty much, anything beyond THAT is a waste of time and money for no practical gain............except that you can.

P.S. Hope your vehicle tops out at 75 mph, too. Waste of time and money............you know.

wink grin


Does anyone know what this bozo is talking about ?
Originally Posted by Yoder409
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by pullit
because I can
Whoopy doo. Wasting of money and time for no practical gain.. Good plan.


Just curious.............

Do you own anything more than a .22LR, a 12 gauge and a .30-'06 ?? Pretty much, anything beyond THAT is a waste of time and money for no practical gain............except that you can.

P.S. Hope your vehicle tops out at 75 mph, too. Waste of time and money............you know.

wink grin
I wouldn't handload a 5.00 tungsten bullet in my .30-06 to shoot deer at 40 yards either. That would be a big waste of time and money for no practical gain when a plain old cup-n-core will do..
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by Yoder409
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by pullit
because I can
Whoopy doo. Wasting of money and time for no practical gain.. Good plan.


Just curious.............

Do you own anything more than a .22LR, a 12 gauge and a .30-'06 ?? Pretty much, anything beyond THAT is a waste of time and money for no practical gain............except that you can.

P.S. Hope your vehicle tops out at 75 mph, too. Waste of time and money............you know.

wink grin
I wouldn't handload a 5.00 tungsten bullet in my .30-06 to shoot deer at 40 yards either. That would be a big waste of time and money for no practical gain when a plain old cup-n-core will do.


I totally get it.

Just pointing out that it's nice to have the choices that we do...........if that's the way we choose to roll.
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
I load TSS because I like the way it preforms, plane and simple. I have killed turkeys with lead and it works to. I shoot them with what I like to use, and hope everyone else will make a choice that suits them as well.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Blackheart
The Amish here make some damn good turkey calls. They sure as hell ain't on the internet beating their chests about it. I don't even think they advertise the fact and only sell them locally.


The Amish also make calls for people that other people think are turkey call makers...so what's your point ?
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by Blackheart
The Amish here make some damn good turkey calls. They sure as hell ain't on the internet beating their chests about it. I don't even think they advertise the fact and only sell them locally.


The Amish also make calls for people that other people think are turkey call makers...so what's your point ?
Like whoopy shyt you make turkey calls. Wow, that's impressive.
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by Blackheart
The Amish here make some damn good turkey calls. They sure as hell ain't on the internet beating their chests about it. I don't even think they advertise the fact and only sell them locally.


The Amish also make calls for people that other people think are turkey call makers...so what's your point ?
Like whoopy shyt you make turkey calls. Wow, that's impressive.


grin grin grin

Be MORE impressive it he could run one and make it SOUND like a turkey.................

grin grin grin
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
His calls are impressive. Maybe you aren't familiar with them. They are works of art and highly sought after. As much grief as we give LFC, there's no denying his street-cred building calls.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by Blackheart
The Amish here make some damn good turkey calls. They sure as hell ain't on the internet beating their chests about it. I don't even think they advertise the fact and only sell them locally.


The Amish also make calls for people that other people think are turkey call makers...so what's your point ?
Like whoopy shyt you make turkey calls. Wow, that's impressive.


Same thought I had whoopy shyt.....
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Here's a riddle for you yOder.....

What do you call a guy that claims he's been paid by the turkey hunting and choke tube industries for two decades won't tell who paid him and hides behind a bogus user name on the internet ?

I think they call that a phoney.....
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
His calls are impressive. Maybe you aren't familiar with them. They are works of art and highly sought after. As much grief as we give LFC, there's no denying his street-cred building calls.
The Amish turkey calls are damn nice too. I made guns and knives for years. Forgive me if I ain't all that impressed just because somebody can make a nice turkey call.
Originally Posted by Yoder409
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by LFC
Originally Posted by Blackheart
The Amish here make some damn good turkey calls. They sure as hell ain't on the internet beating their chests about it. I don't even think they advertise the fact and only sell them locally.


The Amish also make calls for people that other people think are turkey call makers...so what's your point ?
Like whoopy shyt you make turkey calls. Wow, that's impressive.


grin grin grin

Be MORE impressive it he could run one and make it SOUND like a turkey.................

grin grin grin

No kidding.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Do you really think I care what you and phOny yOderboy think.....
Originally Posted by LFC
Do you really think I care what you and phOny yOderboy think.....
LOL. I don't really care if you care what I think.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Thinking about taking my 1911 .45 ACP loaded with TSS turkey hunting. Thoughts? That's enough capacity, ain't it?


That's where TSS belongs it would make good rat and snake killer....I suspect your 1911 will become a smooth bore after a few rounds.
Posted By: 10Glocks Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Blackheart
The Amish turkey calls are damn nice too.


If they make calls like they make furniture, I bet they are. I have a house full of Ohio Amish made furniture and it's the best made stuff I could find.
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by LFC
Do you really think I care what you and phOny yOderboy think.....
LOL. I don't really care if you care what I think.



LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!

Kinda funny, in that the ignore function doesn't weed out the B.S. from the substance in multi-quotes. So I do get to enjoy a bit of cheap entertainment from time to time.

Apparently, you DO care what we think..........or you wouldn't be so obsessed. You ARE a nice guy in one respect. You're letting me live in your head 24/7 and not even charging me rent. It's kinda small in there. But comfy, nonetheless.

Let it go, Luther. You'll have more time for constructive things.

https://youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU
Originally Posted by 10Glocks
Originally Posted by Blackheart
The Amish turkey calls are damn nice too.


If they make calls like they make furniture, I bet they are. I have a house full of Ohio Amish made furniture and it's the best made stuff I could find.
I've bought a bunch of the Amish turkey calls as gifts. I kept a couple for myself too.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Time for the riddle yoderbOy

What do you call a guy that claims he's been paid by the turkey hunting and choke tube industries for two decades won't tell who paid him and hides behind a bogus user name on the internet ?

I think they call that a phoney.....
Posted By: wagner Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by Yoder409
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by LFC
Do you really think I care what you and phOny yOderboy think.....
LOL. I don't really care if you care what I think.



LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!

Kinda funny, in that the ignore function doesn't weed out the B.S. from the substance in multi-quotes. So I do get to enjoy a bit of cheap entertainment from time to time.

Apparently, you DO care what we think..........or you wouldn't be so obsessed. You ARE a nice guy in one respect. You're letting me live in your head 24/7 and not even charging me rent. It's kinda small in there. But comfy, nonetheless.

Let it go, Luther. You'll have more time for constructive things.

https://youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU


Lol!!! Once the legendary LFC videos surfaced, he was taken off ignore!! Truly the gift that keeps on giving..
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by wagner
Originally Posted by Yoder409
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by LFC
Do you really think I care what you and phOny yOderboy think.....
LOL. I don't really care if you care what I think.



LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!

Kinda funny, in that the ignore function doesn't weed out the B.S. from the substance in multi-quotes. So I do get to enjoy a bit of cheap entertainment from time to time.

Apparently, you DO care what we think..........or you wouldn't be so obsessed. You ARE a nice guy in one respect. You're letting me live in your head 24/7 and not even charging me rent. It's kinda small in there. But comfy, nonetheless.

Let it go, Luther. You'll have more time for constructive things.

https://youtu.be/L0MK7qz13bU


Lol!!! Once the legendary LFC videos surfaced, he was taken off ignore!! Truly the gift that keeps on giving..



They DO kinda put a whole new perspective on a bunch of his claims......do they not ??
Posted By: 450Fuller Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
All of this is interesting, but...
I have a few valuable 1920s ancient but effective American doubles.
One is a 1925 AH Fox SuperFox 3in 12 and a LC Smith Waterfowl 1924 3 in 12 GA. The Smith
accounted for a large turkey at about 48 yds with the new tungsten X Hevi-Shot Envirometal. No 4 shot.

TSS might be gentler on the bores of these valuable shotguns-or not.. It also is important as
to the shot cup that does/does not shield the bore until exit.

With the Fox, might limit to Winchester Long Beard.

Then there is a 1917 Fox XE Grade in 2 3/4 12 GA. Probably lead with this 104 yr old classic. (Turkeys come in closer to see the engraving).

Thoughts on tungsten alloy shot in valuable bores?? Thanks in advance...

Warum nicht...
Posted By: Yoder409 Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Originally Posted by 450Fuller
All of this is interesting, but...
I have a few valuable 1920s ancient but effective American doubles.
One is a 1925 AH Fox SuperFox 3in 12 and a LC Smith Waterfowl 1924 3 in 12 GA. The Smith
accounted for a large turkey at about 48 yds with the new tungsten X Hevi-Shot Envirometal. No 4 shot.

TSS might be gentler on the bores of these valuable shotguns-or not.. It also is important as
to the shot cup that does/does not shield the bore until exit.

With the Fox, might limit to Winchester Long Beard.

Then there is a 1917 Fox XE Grade in 2 3/4 12 GA. Probably lead with this 104 yr old classic. (Turkeys come in closer to see the engraving).

Thoughts on tungsten alloy shot in valuable bores?? Thanks in advance...

Warum nicht...


I'd be leary of the harder shots in vintage guns.

I have a pair of aging Winchester Model 21's. The strength of the 21 is unrivaled among SxS shotguns. But I'm still sticking with lead only. Maybe I'm just a chicken......
Posted By: pullit Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
Tungsten will not be kind to the bore if it makes it past the shot cup. For that matter even the Heavyweight stuff that Federal put out might not be nice either. If they were mine, I think I would look at Bismuth shotgun shells.
I was curious about this too and did a little "looking around" using the search phrase "is TSS shot safe to use in old shotguns?". What I found is what type of tungsten shot is it? Tungsten matrix is a blend of tungsten powder and a polymer binding agent. This shot, according to H&H in the UK, is safe in their old guns. Sintered tungsten, like what Federal uses, is made/formed by using heat and compression. This shouldn't be used in old shotguns. This was just some quick looking around.
Posted By: LFC Re: TSS facts verses fiction - 02/16/22
I wouldn't try it if I valued my gun....when TSS first hit the market they only recommended using it in guns with replaceable barrels a short time later they resended this recommendation I suspect because it hurt sales.
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