Well, isn't this interesting....



Oh, the "nice, unfooled with" rifle has had it's side panels totally sanded off. Goodman's has seen plenty of 1899's, no excuse for missing that.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...er-230xxx-made-1920.cfm?gun_id=101556136

PS: No idea what a P on the ledger would mean for 1920. Wonder if it's not actually an R, for (R)ound barrel? Seems a but superfluous in July, 1920 when they'd discontinued non-round barrels though.

Good to know the Savage records will be available soon if not already.
And Center of the West looks like it has a pretty good online process to follow including whether or not a serial number is even available.

Center of the West - Savage records

I looked just last week and they didn't have Savage up on their letter page. Brand new.

As a side note...

* Notice the rifle was accepted from the factory on July 2, 1920 when it was an 1899A.
* Shipped October 22, 1922 when somebody ordered a 99A.

Would it be right to call this an 1899A, or a 99A?

This is the example Cody posted.
Appears to be 1899/99, 303 & 30-30, round, ~1920's
The left column must be a description of some sort. Savage shorthand.
It contains that "P" in numbers of entries. Maybe just means "same as above". ??

Appears to be the same page for the Goodman gun on gunsinternational, you can see Oct. 17, 1922 to Sears at the bottom.

Can't be a "ditto", too many consecutive entries with P at the top for SR's (22SGB == 22" shotgun buttplate). They wouldn't have done P22SGB 4 times in a row if it meant "same as line above". Good thought tho.

Built as 1899A. Could ship whenever, still a 1899A.

Even if the box it came in said it was a 99A?

Is this a trick question? I would like to think it is both since the rifles didn't change with the name change. But then again it was an 1899 when it was manufactured. Another Savage enigma? I like it.

That's actually my take. Since 1899 to 99 was only a marketing name change, it doesn't matter which one it's called. One, or the other, or both.. they're all the same guns. If I had to choose, I'd probably go with 1899A since that can be guessed at by the serial number. We'd be wrong in this case, but we'd be consistent.

with Savage never say...

There are 6 on that page with two accepted dates. One from 1920, and then an overstamp of an accepted date in 1922. Including the two Sears Roebuck rifles, presumably one being the Goodman 1899A.

Wonder if they had to redo something.. and what it might be? Combination of 1899A's and 1899A SR's in 303/30-30 have the double accepted stamps. Interesting...

What about barrel length? 99A is 24".

Was still 26" in 1922. The 24" barrel didn't happen until the ramp front sight happened.

Maybe... "P" for rifles that were proof fired? Would there have been any rifles that didn't get the "SP" stamp in 1920?

Well that's confusing. So an 1899A from 1922 is 26" with dovetailed front sight, but it could be a 99A, which is also the designation for the later integrated ramp 24"?

True for all the 99 models in the early 20's. Except for what cartridges were available for them, nothing really changed until SN 300,000'ish besides the name.

Works for me!
1899A & 1899B 2nd variation = 26"
99A & 99B = 24"
Seems logical, new model introduction and helps draw a line between models via a difference in features/barrel length.
The only way to make it happen is to write my own book.

And all you have to do is ignore years of 1920's catalogs, price lists and ads that call it a 99A before it switched to a 24" barrel.

Do you mean like ignoring the fact that my 1899B (1920) was advertised, built and letters as a 1899B? Got it.

They made no octagon barreled 1899's in 1920, so you can't have an 1899B from 1920.. can you?

And right here is a ledger page from 1920. It does NOT have any model letters. Anything on a 1920 factory letter stating a model is the Savage historian interpreting what's in the ledger, probably in accordance with Murray's dates. Which we know are seriously off in many cases. He did great.. but we've had 30 years to find out more detailed info.

.to further muddy the waters, They should be 99A and 99B from about 1921/22 with 26" rifle weight barrels until about 1926. Then the early medium weight barrels had a pinch front sight base similar to the late lightweight barrel rifles. I have seen G's and K's with this sight in the 29xxxx range to 30xxxx. I haven't seen an A or B in this range but they must have the medium weight barrel with the pinched front sight. The earliest 99A, 3209xx I've seen and a 99K, 3094xx have the integral ramp.

Now if you actually mean the fact that in 1921/1922 Savage still used the term 1899 in it's pricelists along with the new model names.. then you have a point. But that would be 1921/1922, not 1920. The 1921 pricelist has model letters, the 1920 pricelist doesn't. The reason we all collectively agree to call rifles from 1921/1922 by the name 99's is to avoid the confusion of things like "Do you mean an octagon barrel 1899B, or a 26" round barrel with crescent buttplate and takedown 1899B?".

That's not me that did that.. collectors were doing that for years before I got into 99's.

You fellas keep it up, some of it might sink in my thick skull yet.

I didn't say it was octagonal. I said 1899B (1920), which is a round barrel, T/D,...we've covered this before.
This is a model advertised as 1899B that was years after the 1899B octagonal. Blame Savage.

The reason this one sticks in my craw is that I brought it to the forum to identify model designation years ago and was schooled by a member that "the only thing that matters is what the factory letter states".
So I requested and received a factory letter from JTC that indicated my rifle was indeed a 1899B (not to be confused with the earlier octagonal 1899B).
I reported this information to the forum and was schooled again that "the factory letter was wrong". wha wha what?

Anyway, JTC and I know what I have.
I struggle with the "confusion factor". You mean the 99F or the 99F?? You mean the 99A or the 99A? 99E or 99E? ..... Savage models = confusion. It's unavoidable.

David covered this area in his book and explained it well.
I still have a mint 1899B, 2215xx, 1920 and a factory letter to prove it!!

Show me an advertisement, catalog or price list from 1920 that mentions an 1899B. I've never found one. Nobody has ever shown me one. It must exist if an 1899B 26" takedown is correct in 1920. Because those things exist for 1921.

Your letter does tell you what you have. But just as Callahan didn't have the most up to date data when he interpreted the ledger data and wrote 1899B, the dates he gives in the letter you allows you to use the better data we have now to know exactly what you have. Doug Murray was an extremely bright man. Callahan is an extremely bright man. But we know more now than when Murray wrote his book. Just as folks will know more in 30 years than we know now.

You have an 1899A with takedown option, listed in the December 1920 Price List applying to Catalog No. 61 under "Model 1899 Take-Down Rifles 22" barrel, shotgun butt, and 26" barrel, rifle butt." Cost was $53. I'm 99% sure Callahan never saw a copy of that price list.

Not trying to pose as any kind of a Savage expert here but speaking for myself personally I can say that all this overthinking of micro minutea that we seem to be spending more and more discussion time on is providing less and less pleasure and satisfaction for me personally as a longtime collector. I sense that egos are slowly but surely getting involved under the guise of trying to be THE expert on all things Savage. Instead of focusing on the very finest points of description and trying to be a human algorithm Im suggesting we spend more time sharing the things we all agree onand enjoy Just my two cents worth.

Thank you!

Yeah, the "transition rifles" battles have been going on for what.. 15 years? 25 years? Callahan helped a lot of folks by translating ledger entries into best guesses for models, which Roe Clark almost never did. We're back to the Roe Clark letter style from now on, so it'll be interesting as we go forward.

Hopefully nobody gets too wound up in this.. it's just my opinion.

Less talk more photos!

LOL

Are you referring to egos or an ego?

Getting so nobody can say anything anymore without the minutia cop whipping out his badge and picking apart every sentence for every false capitalized letter and comma.

Been there...

Would you mind posting some pictures please? I see very few high condition examples of 1899s. Thanks.

The SP mark was not added till around 1927.

Here ya go.... looks better in hand.
Had a hang tag when I got it.
Not bad for a 100 yr. old rifle.

Wooo dawgy that's a pretty rifle. Quintessential Savage lever gun right there.

Is as getting dazed and confused till “Southern_WI_Savage” posted that rifle now i am just dazed.
Beautiful rifle there!

Rick R likes quizzes so I'll use his rifle for one, This is a "guess when it was made" pole. I don't know the serial so use approximate cut off 's and have a reason for our guess.

BTT

Beautiful rifle.

Wow, looks like it was in a time capsule.

Indeed one of a very few that truly makes my heart sing.


But I gotta ask after finally opening and reading this thread--- who's on first base?! I don't know.

(Could be my normally addled brain is overly addled, courtesy of hospital opiates. 😁 )

Opiates are our friend.

Neat seeing an original page of the ledger. Interesting how things were tracked 100 years ago.

Looking at the first column if “P22SGB” is 22” ShotGun Buttplate might a lone “P” in that column be for “Pad” such as the thin and thick black ones?

Just a guess. Doesn’t explain the three blanks in this column nor the “P” in front of 22SGB.

The entries seem hurried and there looks to be some edits by different hands. Might be the blanks were just neglected.

Another thought, may be the “P” indicates “packed” and the additional “22SGB” is added to denote a special feature having no other column to include this option. The 3 blanks might then be explained if a customer or employee obtained the rifle at the plant and packing wasn’t necessary.

Another curious observation, the location of the “P” in the box varies. Some are left, middle and right. Done by chance or did placement have meaning?

I may just take a shot on my thing-a-ma-bob barrel band Model H in 250-3000....finally. No clue as to the origin of it. Whoever did it sure knew what they were doing. I had posted pictures of it long ago but who knows what happened to them by now.

We have found that the "P" was also in some of the pre-WWI pages and I think (like you) that it might indicate "packed", also

The 22'SGB was the standard entry for the Short barreled rifle with a shot gun butt plate. Not all the early ones had the shot gun plate (SGB). Some used the standard rifle plate.

The double blank just mean that that serial number never made it to the ware house...scrapped or vanished...and so it was not shipped.[b][/b]

So if a copy of the ledger page comes with the letter it becomes much more interesting.

POLE

Okay Rick (Southern_WI_Savage) what is the correct answer? I say the third one.

Things to look for:

Rear sight location
Cross bolt in rear of forearm
Receiver ring marking...Model 1899 Savage or blank

2215xx

"Packed" does make sense.. Except "The Haynes & Chalmers Co." listing in this ledger apparently was a company in Bangor, ME and it doesn't have a P recorded in the ledger. It's a long ways from Utica to Bangor. Two other entries without "P"'s are for Piper & Taft Inc, which appears to have been a Seattle business.

Still thinking that "Proofing" shouldn't be ruled out just because they weren't stamping the barrel in a way we recognize. Could they have been doing random test firing of barrels? Just a possibility.

Course... "P" could just mean it was Paid for up front.

In regards to possible "proof"ing - I pulled out my 1920 1899A Short Rifle with takedown (SN 228,7xx, no SAVAGE 1899 MODEL receiver stamp), and it has:
1) an S on the forearm after the serial number
2) a small X on the buttstock under serial number
3) and a lever boss stamp of L.
No "P" or SP stamps to be seen anywhere obvious, and the barrel (Murray's Style 4 barrel address except top/bottom lines are same length) has nothing but the OFF and arrows. But maybe they didn't proof it, so a sample of one doesn't mean much.

It also has what appears to be a New York drivers license number or similar scratched onto the bottom of the buttplate. Have to remember to try to look that up.

Not being that familiar with 1899's I dated Rick's rifle to 1919 at the earliest based on the rear sight elevator, assuming it was the original. I also had to assume when Rick said it was 100 years old that it actually was, so it couldn't be newer than 1920. The elevator with the fine adjusting screw was part of patent US1464615 filed for Jan 20, 1920 for a sight set - rear sight, elevator and a front sight. The rear sight mark includes "PAT-PEND." which can be used before a patent is actually filed for (or even after). Since a patent can only be filed for within a year of the design becoming public the very earliest the elevator could have been used would have been Jan 30, 1919, if earlier than that it could never be patented. This sight & elevator are first shown in catalog #61 from about 1920, they are not in #60 but it was from several years earlier, about 1916.

If the rear sight is of folded sheet metal construction for the dovetail, like all the examples I've seen, it would probably be closer to mid-1920. I've only seen that sight stamped with "PAT-PEND." included; just Savage arms info and nothing about patents; or nothing stamped at all; never with 'patent applied for' or a patent date. That rear sight construction was covered by a Stevens patent which Savage would have gotten when they acquired Stevens sometime in 1920.Other Savage sights constructed with sheet metal parts that were made through this period have a different construction early and then used the folded design later with the assumption being the changes took place in 1920

uspto.gov/01464615
uspto.gov/00847953

The rifle shipped from Savage Arms Utica, NY to Pritzlaff Hardware in Milwaukee, WI. on March 31, 1920.

Incredible is the history of these guns, totally a step back to when a gun was really sold and used as a gun.

Brief breakdown of this ledger page. With only 1 shipped in 1921, I think this might show how bad that 1 year depression was?

* There are 40 entries that are fully legible, 1 partial. All were accepted in 1920.
* All entries have accepted from factory dates ranging from July 2, 1920 to Oct. 6, 1920 (most in July/Aug, only 1 later)
*** This is actually a very tight date range for accepted dates on a ledger page based on others seen

* 31 were shipped in 1920 from late July to October.
* 1 was shipped in 1921 in September.
* 8 were shipped in 1922 from Jan to Nov.

* 15 were in 30/30
* 26 were in 303
* None in 22HP or 250-3000

* 23 were 1899A 26" rifles
* 18 were 1899A SR 22" rifles
* No 1899H or 250-3000 rifles

* None were rebarreled to 300 Savage for 1921/1922 sale

* One has a job # from 1922 for a gun shipped in 1920, probably indicating a repair or maybe factory sight replacement
* One has a second ship date after the rifle was returned

* Anything shipped after Jan, 1922 (6 from May-Nov) has another accepted from factory date stamped over the original
* 34 of the 41 entries that can be seen have a P in the first column in 3 distinct positions

This has been an informative and interesting thread. Enjoyed all of the '99' Detective Squad's informative posts. Almost like having another chapter of David Royals book. See that the original gun posted from GI, the 1899/99A is still unsold. Interesting post ref the Savage shipment page. Odd some of the shipping dates are written in, others stamped. Guess how Savage kept their records back then was "normal" for the day, be pretty sloppy/unprofessional for any manufacturer today or not to many years ago. Be interesting to see more of these style posts.

When lettering a gun with Cody one can also request a photocopy of the specific gun’s entry in the ledger. In the past there was no additional charge for this service.

Even single lines would help show what's recorded in the ledger for different years.

There’s usually at least one other gun/line above and below the specific ledger entry shown on the photocopy.

Maybe a revision to my first book can happen after I finish the engraving book. The publisher wanted a revision when they did the second printing to include more engraving and they wanted me to do it in a month. One month would have been impossible obviously. The engraving book is shaping up to be much larger than the first book.