I just finished the section of the new book on Brent Giestweidt's 99PE's. He has eight varying from serial number 1,084,1xx to 1,172,4xx. I reviewed his and Dave Trauth's PE's. Dave has seven with serial numbers varying from 1,084,4xx to 1,142,7xx. The variation in the engraving is incredible, not only between early and late rifles but also rifles with serial numbers that are close together. It's obvious that there were several engravers working on the PE's at any one time. The lower serial numbers are the better executed engraving.
Addressing the conifer versus deciduous tree thing. Some of the trees have the limbs turned up and others are turned down on the left side of the receiver. There is nothing there to indicate whether they are supposed to be conifer or deciduous. They all look like stylized conifers to me. Any input from the members here would be greatly appreciated.

#11724xx

DE in the title, PE's in the content. I assume you meant PE.

I'm thinking this one needs to rebarreled by Chris to a big bore, stainless 22" fluted barrel.

Are the PE examples you describe all hand engraved? vs. acid etched? How do you tell?

Others observations, the words of a fellow who dealt with Kirchner the German engraver and your observations pretty much confirm the PE engraving of the time was farmed out to a number of engravers who had different hands/styles and variations would seem to be par for the course.

Having something to look at would would help.
How's about a few examples?

Yes, it was supposed to be titled PE. Old age is a bummer but it beats the alternative.
All of them look like hand engraving to me. I think etching gives kind of fuzzy edges. The edges on all of them look sharp. But the animals are better on the earlier rifles.
Roy, I can include your PE if you can get some pics with less reflection on the engraving. It's best to send me a thumb drive from the camera. The publisher says don't use email attachments. The resolution isn't clear enough.

Looks identical in details and finish to serials 1157016 and 1173826 in the earlier PE thread, and a couple of Fug's later PE's. Though the subdued lighting on yours makes comparing the finish difficult, but easy to see the details. Believe this is the last "version", though multiple engravers may have made their own slight changes to the pattern. It seems pretty regular though.

I thought the conifer vs deciduous was on the DE not the PE.

Beginning in 1967 Valmet model 200 & 300 shotguns were OEM'd for Savage as Models 330 & 333. Valmet employed acid etched "engraving" during that time.

Previous comments by myself and others lead us to believe that during the 60's Savage was using some German engravers for product (99's) and due to supply issues may have utilized "Japan acid etched "engraving".

I assumed that meant possibly some 99's were acid etched, but that may not be true. Has anyone ever seen an acid etched 99?

Or do you think probable that 99's were treated as high end product with hand engraving exclusively vs. a lower end product that was acid etched.

Truthfully I've never heard about the 99DE/99PE being "acid etched" except by a couple of people. The catalogs explicitly state "The skill and artistry of a master engraver is called upon for the lifelike game scenes".

Short of some evidence popping up, I can't see them being considered anything but engraved.

If the engravers did use some acid etching, it'd be interesting to know about. They could have used acid etching to do some parts. I don't know how a guy could tell, especially if they worked on it afterwards. But without a reference to something, it seems to just be one of those "rumors".

A 99DL in 1969 was MSRP $150. A 99PE was MSRP $360. It definitely wasn't a lower end product.

Hmmm. No expert here, but engravers engrave and etchers etch.
Never heard of mixed, but,..In general, with engraving you get quality and cost. With etching you get less quality and less cost. Pro's and con's.

Do 99PE's have other engraved parts other than the rec'r? barrel? trigger guard?

I didn't think they could be combined either, until I did a bit of reading over lunch and found a couple engravers that did use both. Mostly it's one or the other though.

And yeah, the lever had some simple engraving on it. Based on what LRF did, I don't think this adds up to much time tho. Definitely didn't spend as much time on it as Enoch Tue did on his engraving, from the looks of it.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...rade-308-winchester.cfm?gun_id=101386943

I talked to John Allen today. He told me that the engraving around the deer on the bottom of the DE's receiver is where some have deciduous and some conifers. Unfortunately I didn't photograph the bottoms of many of the bottoms of the receivers of the DE's. I'll look at what I have tomorrow hopefully. The bottom of my DE pictured on page 97 of my book appears to have deciduous trees. It's a 284 and I think John said he thought the 284's had deciduous and 243 and 308's had conifers.

Yea this is all interesting at a certain level and maybe some day it'll be more clear and whether or not it's even important.

For now, it appears there are differences between the engraving on 99DE's and 99PE's by design.
And there are differences within 99DE's and 99PE's attributed to supplier/engraver of which there were several.
'zat sound right?

I'm not sure anybody knows if the differences are by design, or simply due to a different engraver.

On the 99PE's and the significant number of changes, I'd be very surprised if that wasn't different engravers implementing a basic design differently.

Very possibly the same thing on the 99DE's.

I could never warm up to either of those models,and i could have bought some cheap 20 years ago. The tang safety and the engraving style compared to tues didn't make it for me. Every time i would look at one ,i would scurry back to a engraved utica rifle.

Use a good magnifying glass. Look at the bottom of the engraving valley/cut. It will show steps or variable depths of the cut, if it was made using a hammer. It is not smooth.

Using a good magnifying glass on engraving can give good clues to determine if engraving is factory or aftermarket. If you see oxidation /pits IN the engraving, it is "factory.". If you see engraving cuts THROUGH pits, it means the pits were there first, then engraving occurred LATER ( NOT factory original). This is just one clue to input into the decision ( others include: bluing condition, washed out/thin stamped letters and numbers, drilled/tapped holes. These indicate " tinkering" , and if one thing is messed with likely other things are "not right"- to be polite.) It is not absolute. I used to run the firearms division at James D. Julia auction house. I learned this " magnifier/pit/groove evaluation technique from one of our firearms consultants (Frank Sellers, who wrote a great book on Sharps Rifles: https://www.amazon.com/Sharps-Firearms-Frank-M-Sellers/dp/0960812202.), to know how to spot fake " factory engraving," and other clues for being "altered."

So if it is smooth it's acid etched?
Darn good info. I wish I had known this before I went on my trips to photograph 99's for the book I'm working on. I saw a few rifles that I wondered whether or not they were factory engraved.
There is no end to the useful knowledge available here.