Originally posted by Rick on "Gene's 1920/26 Project Thread" :

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13508332/4

Definitely a rich resource! Thanks again Gene and other contributors.

" Sales records for 1920 shows 4426 (or serial 5426 if produced in numerical order. Don't know how many were actually shipped).

I have the following production dates from lettered rifles:

178x - 5/13/1920
188x - 3/24/1920
428x - 5/25/1920
5575, 5742 and 5747 were shipped to RC Andrews late 1920. Note that 5648 in .300 was not shipped till 1/19/1922. (wonder if it was sent back and re-barreled?)
690x - 7/16/1920

802X – 09/22/1923

905x - 4/3/1924
1058x - 5/28/1925

Lowest serial # .300 394x seen (per 260Remguy) Also the lowest serial # .300 I have in my data.

This is the sales info projected as a serial:

year - sales - serial
1000
1920 - 4426 - 5426
1921 - 462 - 5888
1922 - 1203 - 7091
1923 - 1182 - 8273
1924 - 941 - 9214
1925 - 687 - 9901
1926 ? ?
1927 ? ?
1928 ? ? not in the 1928 catalogue
1929 ? 13016"

I added 802X another 250-3000 to the list. My latest is the very well used 103XX action with a matching stock and butt plate numbered 1100X.

If anyone could add other lettered 1920 / 26 rifles to the list our collective data would continue to grow.

Thanks in advance.

We saw with the 250-3000 that Savage gave a few early test guns to gunwriters/etc for testing before they released it publicly.

So that serial number 5648 rifle might very well have been in 300 Savage, and given to RC Andrews in order to get a big name to use for advertising when they released it publicly. I don't recall seeing Andrews give a big endorsement to the 300 Savage cartridge, so that's just a theory...

Somewhere in my mess of stuff i have a autographed photo of Stewart Edward White the author and big game hunter with a savage model 1920.

I'd be happy to send you an autographed photo of me holding my Savage Model 1920.

Have we confirmed 13006 as the last serial number of a M1926?

The Cody Museum has listed what they have available for Savage and Stevens and show the 1920 numbers from 1-13549

SerialNumberRanges_SavMarIthFoxSmi

Are you interested in non lettered 1920's?

Sure, if you have anything to offer to the conversation. The seller of my latest acquisition is trying to get me the background on the beater I bought.

I'm on a Model 20 fixation right now! (thinking of offering a 32-40 and an 1895 in trade for good ones up here in Canada)

I have a few, I'll get them out and get you the s/n's.

These are the ones I have.

1920. s/n 964x 250-3000
1920 s/n 600x. 250-3000
1920. s/n 300x. 250-3000

Marked M 20 s/n 1099x. 300 Sav/ bolt peep sight

I have 1058X with letter. Rick has it in his info in this thread. I also have 1269X (Genes project rifle as seen elsewhere in this thread.) No letter.
And lastly, 11907. No letter.

Mine is 4551 but no letter.

Joe

Why not take all the “non lettered” serial numbers and sending them off as a batch to Savage to have their dates of manufacture determined? That should be a reasonable task for a company historian to accomplish.

That could be fun! The real holes currently in the data are post #1058X. But it would be nice to fill the other gaps.

You starting the "Go -Fund-Me" page to pay Cody because I don't think Savage has the actual records anymore.

So did Savage dump their records? I have no idea. And does Cody charge an arm and a leg for their services? If so then that's ridiculous as checking a list of numbers is pretty much a sophomoric exercise.

#11495 here, .250-3000, Lyman 54, schnabel fore arm, swept back bolt handle. No letter.

Is there a feel for when they switched to the 20/26 "body style", serial # and date?

11320 for me, .300, Lyman 54 and schnabel forearm too - and with a swept back bolt handle. Don't know date of manufature but I'm pretty certain its a 20/26

Answer: Yes (to Cody) and Yes (arm and a leg, or one "short arm").

Hopefully not to drive us off the road into the weeds, but I felt those Savage records could've been handled much the same way Springfield Research Service handles M1903 Springfield production records. A researcher(s) dug (and continues to dig) through the National Archives gleaning serial numbers from the extinct Springfield and Rock Island arsenals, what the guns were (in terms of sub-models), date of production, and initial recipient (civilian or military). An astonishing compilation has been created and the info is available to subscribers to The Service, or, as in my case, via thumb drive with all the info on it- which wasn't cheap but was less than $100.

To bring this full circle, why couldn't Cody task a couple interns or the like to transfer the basic info from the old ledgers onto a digital format, and sell the info to collectors via thumb drives (or whatever newer technology is taking their place- I don't know, I'm a Luddite), to pay for the effort. Do it in stages so the kids don't burn out- 1st year's thumb drive= M1895's and 1899's up to #90,000. Second "edition" the following year, M1899 from #90,000 to 1920 year. And on and on in a like manner until all the numbers extant are on thumb drives. I bet if they charged between $50-100 for each thumb drive, they would sell a heckuva lot of them right here.

Last question: Are the M1920's to be found in the ledgers?

Here is some information for your project.

#01111 is the long action prototype military rifle in 30-06.

#10170 is the long action prototype sporting rifle that is short chambered in 256 Newton, listed in the R&D log as being chambered in 30-06. I don't know who owns this rifle today, but it was once part of Bruce Jennings Newton collection and sold to settle his estate.

There are at least two other long action 1920 military prototypes, a rifle similar to #01111 chambered in 7x57, and a hybrid 1920-SMLE #1 MK3 chambered in .303 British.

The following are some that I've owned:

#1602 - in 250-3000, accepted on 03/12/20 and shipped on 03/15/20 to Smith-Winchester Company.

#2718 - in 250-3000, accepted on 04/17/20 and shipped on 04/20/20 to Weed And Company in Savannah.

#3949 - in 250-3000, accepted on 06/15/22 and shipped on 06/19/22 to Missoula Mercantile Company.

#4217 - in 250-3000, accepted on 05/19/20 and shipped on 05/20/20 to Colonel E.G. Delafield on a consignment account, whatever that was. Colonel Delafield returned it to Savage on 09/05/24 and it was subsequently logged as an "office sample" on 10/08/28. This rifle is listed in the R&D log as being a Model 1916, but is an early 1920.

#4633 - in 250-3000, accepted on 05/27/20 and shipped on 07/10/20 to E.K. Tryon Company in Philadelphia.

#10594 - in 250-3000, accepted on 06/17/26 and shipped on 06/17/26 to Harry Harrison.

#10659 - in 300 Savage, accepted on 06/28/26 and shipped on 06/30/26 to Simmons Hardware Company in St. Louis.

#10821 - in 250-3000, accepted on 08/17/26 and shipped on 09/25/26 to Albany Hardware And Iron Company.

#11427 in 300 Savage, shipped on 09/28/28 to Lou J. Eppinger.

#11920 in 300 Savage, shipped on 10/12/27 to John E. Larrabee Company.

#11926 in 300 Savage, shipped on 07/30/27 to Gere Woodrings And Company.

#12273 - in 300 Savage was consigned to the R&D collection on 10/02/29.

Cody could take an intern, sit them down at a big desk in front of the books and probably have all the numbers ran that this forum would want in an afternoon. This sort of work is right up my alley and if they charge a princely sum then they are price gouging. Now as a museum I don't mind making a donation. Museums serve an important function and they should be supported by the public

I have a letter from Mr. Clark with that information, but I can't find it in my 1920 binder. I've posted the information on this site previously, maybe somebody with better search skills than me can find those posts. IIRC, the change was made in June 1926 around SN 10500. My #10594 was accepted 06/17/26, the same week as the change over. Mr. Clark's letter on 10594 is dated 03/24/93.

You're a wealth of information Jeff. Many thanks!

My beat up 1920 #1032X action, with Lyman #54 came in 1926 style solid stock and matching butt plate both #1100X.

A fun rabbit hole to follow down...

Got ya covered.


From your data above, 10,500 would be around June 15, 1926.

Cody has the ledgers, and once you are a member getting a serial number lookup isn't that expensive. Quite a bit cheaper than it ever has been before. Even a $150 membership lets you buy a pack of 50 serial number lookups at $5/each for $250 total.

Even counting in the $150 membership, that's under $8/lookup - much cheaper than was possible ever since Roe had the records. You don't get a letter for each one, but you do get all the info. I'm waiting on my first set of info.

If you don't want 50, just want 5? The $150 membership gets you 5 searches as part of the membership, so that's $30/apiece. Not much more than Callahan was doing, and most of the $150 is tax deductible.

Want just 1? Well.. that's where it sucks. $75 letter for non-member.

Here are a few more without letters:

2097 - 250-30000

3949 - 300 Savage, the lowest SN 1920 in 300 Savage that I've owned

7427 - 300 Savage

10659 - 300 Savage

11404 - 250-3000, from Australia with British? proof marks on the barrel and stamped "Not British Made"

12504 - 300 Savage, an odd configuration, as the tail block is not d&t for a Lyman #54 and there is a King open rear sight in a barrel dovetail. The absence of the factory d&t holes in the tail block suggests that it didn't come with a Lyman #54 and was manufactured with the open rear sight in the barrel dovetail. This is the only 20/26 that I've seen in this configuration.

I'm going to have limited ambulatory status for about 6 weeks following knee surgery on 03/29. I managed to tear the meniscus off the bone in my left knee and the repair requires no weight bearing in order to properly heal for about 6 weeks. I'll have time to sort through the dozen or so boxes of Savage and Savage-related print ads that I've accumulated over the years and hope to find letters from Mr. Clark on some of the other 1920s and 20/26s that I've owned. I've owned close to 100 of them in total, but have less than half still around.

PS - a comment on 10821 that I listed in a previous post in this thread, this rifle has a curved, rifle-style, Savage butt-plate that the seller claimed was ordered that way by his grandfather. The story goes that his grandfather was only around 5'8", so he needed a shorter LOP and preferred the curved rifle-style butt-plate. It is a correct Savage rifle-style butt-plate and perfectly installed, so if it wasn't done by Savage, whoever did it, did an extra nice job. This rifle came out of Driggs, Idaho, just west of GTNP and about 30 miles south of YSNP, so maybe somebody's mountain elk rifle nearly 100 years ago.

OT - I feel you Jeff.

Sheared the meniscus off the weight bearing portion of my left femoral condyle. Seeing the sports medicine surgeon this coming Tuesday.

I'm getting tired of hobbling about like a fat old man.

Let me know if you want to start taking contributions as a sort of "group purchase." I'd be happy to chip in and I would have no problem with you or any other member of the forum becoming the holder of the membership on behalf of us all. A group effort like this could end up being a new way for the forum to get information from an established archive that otherwise would be speculative or piecemeal.

FWIW, here's my list:.

3478 model 1920 250/3000
8053 model 1920 250/3000
10005 model 1920 250/3000
12991 model 20/26 250/3000 Lyman 54

no letters

Forgot to mention that mine hasn’t been housebroken. It has no papers.

Can't breed it with other ones then either, if you want top dollar for the offspring.

It sounds like we've got the same injury.

The surgeon told me that I'd need a knee replacement within eight years if I didn't have this surgery. The MRI shows that the cartilage in my other knee is almost gone, so I'll almost certainly have to have an artificial knee on the right side sometime before 2030.

Most likely sheared it off (according to the former sports doctor of the Hamilton Tiger Cats, Canadian Football - CFL) with a single slip, twist and fall while out salmon fishing on my buddy's boat six months back. Now I'm rethinking all my future plans regarding upland bird hunting.

Knee microfracture surgery?? Friends ( husband and wife) went to Germany for knee and hip replacements with 3D printed joints that were laser measured to fit. This allows for the replacement of half the joint and a shorter recovery time, if I understood correctly. I should have planned better financially...

Looking at this well worn 1926 rifle with a busted stock at the wrist, half sanded off checkering with a barrel devoid of bluing and the capped muzzle of this 95 year old Savage, and I'm beginning to think I can relate a little at 61.

Worked hard / played hard!

It'd be good for getting a bunch of individual information.. but the problem with trying to work from single rifle entries is that so many went out late. Look at any ledger pages and you'll find many that went out 2 or 8 months late, for no special reason. So the info is good.. but can be confusing. So I'm not sure how much specific good would be gotten from getting info on 500 specific guns if all you're getting is info on that one, single gun.

I'm not saying I don't have ideas.. or that info on individual rifles isn't useful (FAR better than nothing!).. but we'll see.

I guess I have to ask what data specifically are you looking for? I've never requested factory letters but it seems like they are good for identifying the dates that guns were shipped in and out of the factory warehouse and where they were shipped to. I would guess Cody has pretty much the same info. Couldn't this data be used to establish a chronology for production? Even if it had issues as you mentioned it still would be something worthy of putting together. Then again maybe I'm not fully understanding the problem here.

Suppose I get a factory letter for rifle 11.5xx, and it gives me an accepted from factory date of September, 1901.

Does that establish fall of 1901 as the general date for 11.5xx serial numbed rifles? Nope... it establishes fall of 1901 as the date for THAT rifle. The general date for 11.5xx is probably summer of 1899. The rifle in question was just accepted 2 years later than it's serial number would indicate. Why? No idea..

This is, by the way, is a real example.

Every ledger page would provide a shotgun pattern of dates, with many falling into an early zone but with others that are 2, 3, 6, 24 months later. They provide meaning if you get enough data for a group, but just getting one or two dates for a group of rifles might get ones that are later and skew your data.

Thanks and wow, that’s a serious error factor for determining dates of production. I had no idea the dates given in factory letters were that sloppy. And frankly I’ve always found little use for factory letters and this just reinforces that thought. So what types of data are the letters good for?

I think that factory letter are very useful for collectible firearms that are in excellent original condition or in unusual configurations.

My 1899 250-3000 in 22 HP is a rifle that doesn't exist as a cataloged configuration, but the factory letter proves that it was factory built on special order.

I paid Mr. Clark over $1K before I could really afford to do so, but I felt that having factory letters would make the rifles more valuable to collectors when it come time to sell them. Time will tell if it was money well spent, but it is only money and the mints print more of it every day.

Thanks and I can see what you mean with collectible 99s. For mine, however, a letter might tell me who a gun went to and at a seemingly unreliable date. I really don’t own any top shelf collectible 99s but I do see what you mean.

Like 260 said, rifles in unusual configurations. My 1912 H 22HP was advertised as barn find condition with no name vintage scope. When I got it, under better light, I could see Malcolm. Got a JTC letter and it states the date it came into the warehouse, and it shipped out later that day to, The Malcolm Rifle Telescope Co. My high condition 250-3000 V2 that I got from Randy. The butt stock is off a little from the receiver and forearm. He got two letters and the receiver number had the usual info. The stock number said, "no rifle with that number left the factory". The consensus was that confirmed the butt stock was original to the rifle. I'd like a letter for my K, butt not $70 worth of "like".

I might have misread what Rory and others said, but, I don't think your ship date on the rifle is unreliable, it's just out of sequence. Maybe old Fred grabbed an action and stuck it in his locker, or on a shelf, to build his own gun. Then old Fred croaked, and no one found it for 2 years, who knows?

That's right. As far as anybody knows, the accepted/ship dates are reliable. It's just that guns weren't finished in serial number order. It might be that mine that shipped 2 years late went around to expositions and a world fair - it was B engraved and fancy walnut. But nothing recorded about expositions, and no entry for the engraving/other options.

You get what you get. More factory letters AND bringing the data here does help to refine dates. Don't get me wrong.. they do help. But it takes a number of them, and lettering "regular" guns is the most useful since special order guns are the most likely to ship late.

To confuse things even more, the later ledgers from 40's and on only record ship dates. Which means if they had a large backlog, the dates reported include the lag time before shipping. I always prefer the "Accepted from factory" date, because that's the actual "manufacture date".

Regarding the out of sequence serial numbers that pop from time to time, I have long wondered that, since 99s were assembled by hand, if the guy doing the assembly pick a receiver out of a box or bucket that wasn't quite "right", he'd put it into a box or bucket under his workstation and get to it when he got to it. Sometimes those boxes or buckets would get forgotten and when found, reworked, assembled, and "accepted".

That's my thought also. Or the rifle maybe failed quality assurance for some relatively minor reason, but it would take twice as much time to fix the fault on that rifle than it would to work a new gun. So management had them put on problem racks because total output was important to meet orders. Maybe had a few skilled guys that would work the "problem" racks as piecework for overtime or something.

Or bins, buckets, boxes of receivers went into storage after completion and pulled randomly to fill orders, as SOP, instead flowing straight into the production line. We assume that Savage production was linear when in fact I'll bet it wasn't.

Possible, but the pictures I've seen of the manufacturing/assembly shows racks of guns being moved as groups, not as a wall of racked parts or what not. Might have been different before the receivers got paired with stocks..

I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Components being made in batches and shuffled into the warehouse to be drawn to fill requests from the assembly dept. At that point manufacturing started flowing linearly once receivers were mated to barrels and stocks. Again just a guess.

One thing that's obvious to me is that Savage never heard of FIFO (first in first out) in terms of parts storage and finished product warehousing. Heck, we didn't adopt that until around 1980 where I worked.

That's right. As far as anybody knows, the accepted/ship dates are reliable. It's just that guns weren't finished in serial number order.[/quote]

And that’s the part I was referring to as unreliable. However it is assumed that guns were assembled from bins of parts then maybe it’s really a date of assembly that’s most important.

Yep. Using that 1920 ledger page from Cody:

If you randomly lettered a rifle on that page, you'd get an accepted date somewhere between July 2nd, 1920 and August 31, 1920 - an 8 week range in which they produced 3,600 rifles total in reality.

The same rifle on that page would fall into a shipping date range of July 21, 1920 to November 8, 1922 - a 120 week range.


The 8 week accepted by date range isn't bad - unless you're trying to identify the end of year. Being off by potentially 3,000 rifles is a chunk.


But having ANY data is far better than having none. Murray's early years before 1917 are off by a LOT, and we've found even the American Rifleman dates can be improved. So the more we get, the better date ranges we get.

I found that true while collecting data on the 99-H. The second version of the barrel band H started at around 340000 (1932). So far I have found 9 with receivers serialed between 187xxx and 235xxx that were assembled as this later version around 10 years later.