(Wrote this out a couple days ago.. and the browser crashed just as I was about to hit Post. I'll try it again)

My wife and I went on a vacation to Yellowstone a couple weeks ago that we'd planned on last year - which we postponed due to COVID. With having received my final drafts of the pocketbook reference right before we left, I asked the Cody archivist who'd been doing my serial number searches if I could drop a couple copies off for them. David Royal was also kind enough to call his contact.

And so, I got to visit with the Cody archivists. Now I'll share with y'all everything I learned. Much of this we knew.. but I'll repeat. First, the general stuff about their jobs and what they do and what they have for Savage ledgers.

1) They haven't digitized any Savage Arms stuff yet. They got the Ithaca factory paperwork before they got the Savage ledgers, and they are still working on getting Ithaca scanned. They're working on it, but they are a museum and they don't have a huge staff. Savage ledgers will come next.

2) They received no instructions on the Savage ledgers when they were dropped off. Since then they've talked to the person at Savage who was doing letters, and have picked up some stuff on their own. I think they are at least as far along as the Savage folks were, and probably better. The Cody folks are used to looking at Winchester and Marlin ledgers, so it's just a question of learning the Savage quirks for them.

3) They have book ledgers from 1895's through 1946, including up to serial number 436,558 for Savage 99's. Also Fox ledgers, 1907 ledgers, 1903/1909's, 1904's, 1919's, etc. They now know the 1895's have serial number under 10,000 - they were expecting them to be in a different ledger.

4) They have microfiche from Savage, which they were told is mostly 1960's data. But they haven't gotten set up to access it, that will happen after the Ithaca stuff has been digitized. I think this will actually turn out to be late 40's data through the.. 60's? Callahan had that information,it had to go somewhere.

5) As archivists, their job really isn't to know the guns at all. It's just to report on what's in the ledger. They are interested in the guns, and they've realized that some of the ledger entries require knowing about the guns. Such as an 'A2 Special' entry is a model, 'A2 engr' is A2 engraving, and 'A2 chkd' is A2 checkering. But they will interpret very, very little.. they'll report what's recorded in the ledger.

6) Because they'll report just what's in the ledger, they'll almost never mention the model of an 1899 (or 1895). Savage Arms never assigned 1899's a model name, much less recorded it - so it's just not in the ledger. They'll report what's written in the entry and we'll have to interpret. Any exception would be for a named grade.

6a) They seemed shocked to hear that Savage never assigned model names to 1899's.. they thought they had and that Savage just didn't log them. I told them about Douglas Murray coining those model names in the 70's based on telegraph codes, and they just shook their heads.

7) 99's do have models recorded from late 1921 on.. usually. There are some records during WW2 where no model was recorded, and the most they can give is a ship date. I don't have a specific breakdown for that, I'd guess 1941-1942 you are more likely to get a model, and 1943-1946 almost will never get one? I have no idea what's on the microfiche after WW2, and neither do they yet.

8) Very, very nice folks. They asked for referrals to any collector groups or online sites to send folks who wanted more information, and I gave them links to the this forum and to the Savage 99 Facebook group.

They were also nice enough to lead me through the bowels of the museum into the vaults to see the ledgers. And VERY nice and offered a few minutes to look up any "big" questions that I could think of.

Naturally my mind went blank.. but I thought up a few.

A) 1921 switch from 1899's to 99's : We took a quick glance and saw model letters recorded on some ledger entries in October, 1921. Not on all entries though - it looked like the folks recording the ledgers continued the 1899 style entries for a while longer on some entries. We just looked thru 236,xxx entries.. so maybe they recorded some earlier as well, I can't rule that out.

B) 1921 rifles are a mess, with rifles accepted WAY out of order. Rifles in the ranges of 234,xxx through the 237,xxx? were being produced all intermixed from May, 1921 up to April, 1922. Heck, I saw a number of 236,xxx rifles that were finished as 99H's in 1931. So I don't think it will ever be possible to put a serial number cutoff on the 1899 to 99 switch. Maybe a date can be found for when the first model is recorded.. Sept. or Oct. 1921 probably. But any date you pick will have a number of 234,xxx - 236,xxx rifles made before that date, and a number made after that date. I'll leave it at 236,000 in the book - seems to be as accurate as any other serial number.

C) 1899's made in 1898 - pretty much didn't happen. We quick scanned up through July, 1899 and only saw 3 rifles recorded as accepted in 1898 - Proctor's rifle that is mentioned in the newspaper article as being presented to him, and 2 early 10.0xx rifles I think that went to a retailer. I think the 300 rifles mentioned as being made in 1898 is actually 300 rifles SOLD in 1898, which would include a few hundred 1895's that they still had in inventory (and there is documentation not at Cody showing that Savage Arms had that many 1895's still in inventory). Mass acceptance of 1899's to the factory started in January, 1899.

D) 1895's low serial numbers did start at 3156 - but there are 4 lower numbers jotted in above that on the page. Random numbers, not anything memorable like '1000'. On the 4 entries, only one had an accepted date, no ship dates or names or entries for barrel length or cartridge or anything at all. And no.. I don't recall the date that was written, or the serial numbers. Were they Colt prototypes? Marlin prototypes? Savage Arms prototypes in 1898? Some other model they jotted down in this book? Interesting mystery.

E) The last consecutive entry below 90.000 recorded in the ledger is 84.709, with 4 non-consecutive 84.7xx rifles higher than that. But then it jumps to 90.000. I think that's the only gap I didn't have a firm start and end for.

F) When looking to see if any 10.xxx rifles were made in 1898 we did glance at the high end of the 1895 range, but I didn't make any mental notes of it. Callahan told us about high serial number 1895's at one point, so it wasn't a hot button for me to spend precious moments looking at.


And that's about it.. As I said, great folks with a tough job. There were a couple late 1921 entries that we were starting at trying to decipher a handwritten entry.. and it was just indecipherable. I thought that it was a cursive "FTD" for F - TakeDown (or possibly it was even the older style FWT for "FeatherWeighT meaning 1899H but with a really weird written W). She thought it was an H.. but HTD makes no sense at all, so we were stumped. Some of those ledger pages and the handwriting are just tortuous to try to read.

Thanks for the post.

WoW, Great details Rory!! And it sounds like You came up with perfect "big questions" for Your short opportunity to view the original ledgers! Well Done!

Are any of these scanned records becoming public access? or just archival for Cody Museum?

Were I seventeen today, my goal would be to work at the Cody museum !

What a great place.

Will we ever reach the day that with a push of buttons they will be able to verify the number of 25-35, 32-40 and 38-55 that were produced?

They've had Winchester and Marlin records for a long time, so I think it's safe to say Savage will be like those and not be public record. Whether folks might be able to get research access to the ledgers once they are scanned and backed up is another question, and I didn't ask it.


Interesting question. I know they scan them, but I don't think they are using any OCR software to convert the handwriting into characters. I think they just scan the ledgers in as high quality pictures. Based off of the ledgers I've seen, converting through OCR would be a software nightmare given the cursive handwriting, water damaged pages, odd abbreviations used and the inconsistent spacing and positioning of the words. Though my OCR experience is pretty out of date. Wonder what the successful read rate would be? Hmm.

But for the near future, I'd say it's probably a definite no.

PS: OCR software is "Optical Character Recognition" - software that can read words that is in a picture.

My sense is that public access to the scanned records is very unlikely, fees for memberships and factory letters are a very important source of revenue for the museum.

That was my sense also. When talking about photocopies of ledger pages that are out in the public's hands now from Callahan and Roe, they said that has never been the practice at Cody and isn't allowed. If the entry is too hard to read, they may share a single line for the entry with the person requesting a letter. But never an entire page.

Sounds like a most interesting Day at the Museum (as opposed to "Night at the Museum").

I guess we should be thankful that these records, along with the records of other gun companies, ended up there. In today's world with its throw away attitude so much industrial history has been lost forever.

To resolve the chronology once and for all in my pea brain - did Callahan own the ledgers outright or was he merely the "designated custodian" of them, conferred upon by Savage Arms? If he did own them outright, why did he transfer possession of them back to Savage when he got out of the game and not pass the torch, so to speak, to a well heeled/responsible individual or consortium who would've been happy to not interrupt the flow of informational letters to collectors? If he didn't own them outright then I can understand why the ledgers were returned to Savage where they were certain to disappear into a mind-numbing world of red tape and indifference to interpretation of their contents (to wit: "we're archivists who just report what we see and have no interest in actually learning about the guns so we can more fully interpret the information for inquisitive collectors").

Institutional guardianship has its benefits in terms of archival preservation, which again we should be thankful for. But what's lost forever now is the personal touch that Callahan provided - his going the extra mile to interpret what he read in the ledgers based on his history with Savage Arms and an abiding interest in the guns themselves. Or am I wrong?

From what I gather, Callahan probably technically owned the ledgers. I can't speak to his reasons for giving them back to Savage, as opposed to another individual or even straight to Cody. Not sure anybody knows except Callahan.

You had a great visit. I'm looking forward to going there this fall. I am glad you found the 1895 data for them.

They'd already resolved that themselves, once they found out Savage 1899's started at serial number 10.000. I can't take credit for that. Their confusion just goes back to the fact that 1895's and 1899's don't have models recorded, and that they got no instructions when the ledgers were delivered.

I may have told her about the 1895's in one of my conversations with Jessi.

Great info, Rory. Thank you for sharing!

Awesome report. Thank you 👍

Seeing the Ledgers probably better then elk or grizzlies in Yellowstone!
Glad you had the opportunity.

I hope that at least when they generate letters and online search emails, they are keying the information into a database and then generating those letters and email from there. At least that way they would be capturing data on a go-forward basis.

From what i remember hearing JTC saved those ledgers from the dumpster when savage was doing a house cleaning!!!! i'm sure that the savage managment was greatful that they were saved after new people were in control at Savage arms.

Winchester burned hundreds of hoppers filled with factory records in the 1950’s to free up space and fuel the factory’s furnaces.

They do have a system where info from letters is saved, but I know very little about it. I'm not sure a search of lettered rifles would be representative of the larger set of rifles, since it's the more interesting rifles that tend to be lettered. Maybe I can trade some consulting time for research time after they get things digitized.

I'm a bit surprised that Vista Outdoors took the ledgers back. And as soon as it went private the ledgers went out the door to Cody. So.. i don't know what's up with Savage nowadays.

I'm just glad that they ended up at Cody and have finely been digitized.

Will be digitized.. they aren't yet.

Going to the Cody Museum the end of this month if anyone has something they want me to check on….

You may have to spend a month there with this offer.....😁

Elwood, they’ve moved almost all the Savage guns to an area downstairs in the firearm museum with red slide out vertical drawers. No longer in a window display. And the lighting is poor. Look for the drawers marked S.

You''re probably right...scratch that.

Thank you...

I'm sorry to hear that. I think Savages deserve better.

Sounds like the current Savage owners did sumpin to piss 'em off?

David, I hope you can get some insight on that based on your interaction with them.

A shame to be relegated to a drawer...

I will definitely ask them. The curators in 2015 when I was there were trying to get me to donate some of my Savages. I sure as hell won't donate any if they are going in a dark drawer. The NRA can get some good out of selling them for money to fight the gun control politicians.

Many here think that the Savage records going to Cody is a great thing their was some better

place that they could have gone Cody was built as a home for Winchester all others

are just stuff for income not so much for history

They reorganized the firearms museum a couple years ago, and it’s very nice. But.. it does have more of a Winchester centric feel to it now.

Didn’t Savage donate some of their old machines to them? Gone off display, but Winchester equipment is on display.

It has been is now and will always be the home of WINCHESTER many great guns

will never get the light shown on them that they should that's too bad as is the

case with Savage collectors when asked what you collect and you say Savage

the other person asking will many times say o you collect them as they look

down their nose at you

I wish that I had something to add. But I do not The books should have stayed amongst us or at least you guys. I will say this. When we lost JTC and the legers ended up where they are, I lost any desire to request a letter. Not that that matters.

Fug is right.. Cody wouldn’t be much of anything if Winchester hadn’t donated their collection. Winchester made them. And there are far more Winchester fans than most any other type.

I’d rather the Savage ledgers stayed in private hands... and there’d have been risks in that as well. Many are already water damaged, so fire/water/storage/handling accidents, even inheritance would be eventual concerns there. But I think it’s better they are at Cody than at Savage. Just my opinion.

At least a lot of history is being saved

The Cody museum is on the bucket list.

My folks have been a couple times.

Think that’s where my dad shot the Gatling gun. 😁

There’s a good podcast out from the the curators of the museum. Danny amd Ashley.

“History Unloaded”. Great way to kill time in the road.

There's actually a company in Cody which has a gatling gun you can fire, as well as other firearms. Prices weren't too bad. Stopped by to look, but didn't shoot.

Gatling guns are really cool to shoot.

Here it is.

https://codyfirearmsexperience.com/

Calhoun, very interesting post thank you.

I am interested in Savage production during 1940/44, At one point an order was place by Britain for .22 Automatic Rifles. In the end this order was cancelled. I believe these may have been Model 6 rifles. Would the records for these be in a separate ledger and did you notice if Cody has the records for any Savage .22 rifles during the period 1940/44. Finally, did the rimfire rifles have their own serial number range compared to center fire rifles. Many thanks.

Regards

Alan

Alan, There are no known records of 22 caliber rifle production after about 1933 and the Model 6's were not serial numbered. Here is a link to what models and serial numbers are available - centerofthewest.org/SerialNumberRanges_Sav

I've come to the conclusion that the Savage Model 6 and many other models were made at the Steven's plant and few records from that plant seem to exist. Some Savage 22's had serial numbers and I think these are the models that were made at the Savage plant and the ones without serial numbers were made at the Stevens plant. Stevens did not serial number their lower priced rimfire rifles even before Savage acquired the company. The Savage Model 29-A's were serial numbered until the move of all production to the Steven's plant, the last 29-A's & all 29-B's are not serial numbered. I don't know the reason for this, it might just have been the different management or possibly some state requirement for guns made in New York.

Yeah... what he said.

We actually discussed World War 2 production a bit while I was there, and most of what they have for the war years are just shipping invoices. So even if there is a ledger for models with serial numbers, they don't have who a gun was sold to or where it was shipped. Just a ship date.

Thanks Guys

This helps clarify things for me.

Regards

AlanD

The Savage auto was #6 (tube feed) and #7 (box mag...clip)
The Steven's auto was #87 (tube feed) and #58 (box mag...clip)

Not many of the #7's made and even fewer #58's.

You might Google the Steven's Springfield 87M. It was military in looks but I'm not sure if it was within your dates.

Never say never on whether there may be sales numbers out there for 22 models.

Just.. don't rule it out.

I’m at the museum this morning. Went through the firearms part yesterday…doing the Wm. F. Cody and Western Art parts today.
I’ll have to say that I was a bit disappointed in the firearms part…they have plenty of nice and interesting guns to see but there’s not much rhyme or reason to how they have them displayed…they’re just there. But…worth seeing, just could be presented better. And, yes, the Savages are in the basement but there’s also several scattered out on the main floor. Glad I went…but except for seeing guns owned by famous people…I’ve seen more and better guns at a big gun show.

We took a paid tour, and there is a logic to the layout if you follow a specific route through the displays.. but it wasn't obvious to me as I just walked through. Even after taking the tour, I'd get turned around inside of the maze when walking through by myself. They need to print a map, or put up better signs.

I agree that I think it's worthwhile. Just not what it could be, imho. If you are a Winchester fan, your opinion of it will be better.

I visited Cody and the museum last November, great town and museum!

I had a trip to Cody and the McCracken center a few years ago to look at the Winchester archive in connection with my research into small arms and ammunition supplied by US company's to the United Kingdom in the two World Wars. Since my visit the Ithaca and Savage shipping ledgers have arrived at Cody, so I will need to go back and look into these shipments.

My visit was prior to the refurbishment of the museum but I was impressed by the way they had as many guns available downstairs in the custom made rack or draws system. So many museums have 90% of their gun collection unavailable for viewing.

The highlight of the trip for me, other than spending 3 days in the McCracken center was staying in the Irma Hotel and enjoying the $2 a beer happy hour and talking guns with Cody locals. Also the trip I made in a rental car to Cook City in Montana where I enjoyed a sloppy Joe and fries. On my return to Cody i just avoided colliding with a White Tail deer who wanted to use the bridge I was about to drive over, luckily the deer had quicker reactions than me.

Regards

Alan

thanks Calhoun for all the info,, I dearly wish i had gotten letters years ago.

norm