I watched this listing on GB. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/971170023

It certainly seems to be a Style 1 Spiegel EG. Rory's book lists the Style 1 being in the serial number range 359000 - 377500 (1937-1938). It also lists 1936 production as starting with 351001 and continuing through 359800. I asked the seller for the serial number of this rifle, and he says it is 352310. Unless this receiver was finished late, this would indicate an earlier start to Spiegel production of about 9 months. I'm curious if any of you who keep data have information on other Spiegels that appear to have been made in 1936?

I was hoping to buy that.. went for more than I wanted to spend on an unstamped Spiegel with refinished stocks. Was going to letter it, dang it.

Pointed out a few other Style 1's here in the last year. SN 376607, SN 376914, and a 30-30 listed as 1936 but no serial number given.

Lots of guns in the 30's were finished late, the few ledger pages I've seen have had guns scattered over a couple years. So with a sample of one, I'd hate to presume to move the date back. Glad to see somebody else is spotting them now!

Rory the one I sent you the link on at auction down here sold on Saturday for $1,800.00 AUD about $1,400.00 USD it was a very clean rifle

Johno

Yeah, the ones with a roll stamp should go for more. I've seen prices up here that were higher also, tho wouldn't say the standard prices is higher.

359663, no checkering or roll stamp, but appears to have the right swivels. Also, I believe Gene had posted a 1936 Fall and Winter spiegel catalog that showed the unstamped, uncheckered with swivels sling and scope.

Monkey wrench alert!

I've mentioned this rifle previously.
99EG, .303 with serial number in the Spiegel range.
It appears that Spiegel rifles could ordered with any or all known options.
Has anyone actually seem an order form?
For now, I'll call this rifle Savage Spiegel 99EG style 0.
Thoughts?

The Spiegel catalogs always showed them with studs.

But that doesn't mean that Savage didn't sell similar EG's off to other retailers without the studs. Or that your holes weren't added later, the screws have been messed with so it may have once worn target blocks.

I do not think every option could be ordered, only what Spiegel had listed in the catalogs which would only be what the rifles they had in inventory would accept. That's why all were drilled & tapped for scope blocks to take Mossberg's scopes so if they sold a scope, it could be mounted to any of the rifles they had.

Here' the 1936 catalog page, the artist drawings are not 100% correct, the front mount on the scope is too far forward and the bottom picture of the H is not very close at all! This catalog has Marlin scopes, starting in 1937 they only offered Mossberg scopes's of a special design just for them.


I think now that there is better data on the Spiegel rifles from actual catalogs showing what Spiegel offered the old 'rumor' that the holes were for a Belding & Mull scope mount has pretty much been dispelled. The few pictures I've found of actual mounts look like like they require a different hole pattern.

Absent a letter showing that it was shipped to Spiegel, I have to agree with Rory. It's just an EG that a previous owner D&T for scope blocks. I once owned a 1933 99 B (pre-Spiegel) that had holes just like the ones on the rifle shown.

I have a 1935 99R that has the holes.. and we've seen other 99R's, and even a couple 99H's with them. My 99R doesn't have the studs. It might have come from the same place as Rick's EG, but the ledger entry was blank.

So then my rifle is a 99EG style 1. Simple enough.

The add above states, sling, snaps and swivels included.
It also states all are D&T'd.

So somewhere along the line someone D&T'd my rifle just like the Spiegels we've seen though none of them has a scope or mounts/blocks attached other than the made up ones we've seen. B&M or otherwise. ??

I'm beginning to think some factory workers used Savage fixturing to D&T their own personal rifles. Still doesn't explain why we haven't seen one all together.

I probably missed it but do we have a rifle(s) that factory letters as being shipped to Spiegels?

Here' the 1936 catalog page, the artist drawings are not 100% correct, the front mount on the scope is too far forward and the bottom picture of the H is not very close at all! This catalog has Marlin scopes, starting in 1937 they only offered Mossberg scopes's of a special design just for them.


I've seen this add before and the first thing that slaps me in the face every time I see it, is the way that man is holding his head to look through the scope of that 99. I could never get used to that.

The gun he is sighting doesn't have a scope, they show the trigger, so if it had a scope the eyepiece would also be showing in the picture.

The scope in the rifle picture comes back to a point before the end of the tang, I don't see the tang in the guy shooting picture, so I'm not so sure that can be determined.

If it doesn't have a scope on it why in the world would he be looking several inches over the line of sight of the bore?

It's a small point really not worth arguing.

My point is anybody that has ever shot more that 10 rounds out of a rifle barrel can see that is a very unnatural position for a rifleman.

36853x was reported to me as an EG with only the D&T and #7 swivels...lettered as shipped to Speigel.

Thanks Rick.
Do we have any idea if the D&T and swivels occurred at Savage or at Spiegels?
I would guess Savage did the work rather than a mail order company such as Spiegels. ??

We think it was at Savage. Spiegel handled lots of guns and could have done it, but it’s more likely it was done during production.

Savage makes sense particularly for quality type reasons.
If so, that could explain other rifles mentioned above that have the same style D&T. Factory guys may have D&T'd their own rifles.

Note; My 99EG w/D&T is located exactly like a regular roll stamped Spiegel I have. Compared to some side mounts for instance where the hole placement varies and were almost certainly after market.

"Note; My 99EG w/D&T is located exactly like a regular roll stamped Spiegel I have. "

Good info. I have not seen one D&T'd in that pattern that I have question if it was factory or not.

Same with swivels/studs in the butt stock. If it is not close to 2 1/2" from the toe it is probably not factory. But, that is not a guarantee that it is factory.

Are there any other 99 models that had D&T for barrel mounting blocks (under the rear sight)? That seems like the tell-tale sure sign that it is a Spiegle 99

Yes.
Rory and Jaaack both mention some above plus the 99EG I have. But those rifles don't have the other Spiegel characteristics such as swivels. Therefore technically not Spiegel.
That's why I theorize that those D&T'd rifles w/o swivels were done at Savage by workers for their own rifles.

That's the difficulty. The Spiegel EG's aren't catalogued, and we are the ones finding out what they are through research. They used to often be called Salesmen Samples..

It's quite possible they aren't all Spiegel EG's. That it's just the Spiegel catalogs that we've found, but that they made up the same exact features on EG's for other retailers.

I have a barrel band H in 303 that has the holes and the correct swivels.

Im sure Rory and Rick have mine documented.

Yep. We've seen another couple of H's with the holes, but I don't think with the swivels. A couple of R's with holes, but no swivels.

So at the moment, yours is a one-off, I believe.

Great!! Now i can list it as SUPER RARE and only one made. Lol. 😉

The scope blocks that fit these holes are listed by Lyman, if someone had some Lyman catalogs the time frame for them could be established and compared with Spiegel's. I have a 1932 catalog but it's missing the application pages which were an large folded sheet attached to the rear cover, at least in some later catalogs I have, so I don't know if any of those scope block's were offered in then. In 1932 you could send your rifle to Lyman and have any of there products mounted by them, or you could order rifles from them with sights or scopes mounted and sighted. They had scopes that mounted using blocks at this time, so some guns with those holes could have came through Lyman. There were at least 4 different height blocks for the rear holes offered by Lyman and two different for the front. I've seen a lot of ones for the rear, but I can't find any for the front. With as many of those blocks that seem to be around, it's hard to think they were only intended to be used by Spiegel.

Spiegel first started listing scopes and rifles drilled & tapped for scope blocks in 1936, I just have the Fall & Winter so I do not know if any were in the Spring & Summer, but scopes were not listed in the 1935 Fall & Winter.

My 303H has the swivels and is D/T and it just lettered as being shipped to Spiegels.

Also no roll stamp.

What is the serial number?

3606xx

Thanks.
Good to know a rifle actually shipped to Spiegel had d&t, swivels but no stamp.

I am glad to hear that. I always was skeptacle about non roll engraved Spiegels. That info will go in the revision.

The H model like Joe's, with no engraving, is pictured in one of the earlier Spiegel catalogs that GeneB posted. I have four in my Model-H data (357xxx to 360xxx range) that are D&T'd. Joe's is the only one that has been lettered.

But in the Spiegel catalog I remember, the 99H didn't have studs and I thought it said it couldn't have a scope added. Like above.

So those 4 might be from a very, very small early run. 357,xxx to 360,xxx would be mid-1936 to mid-1937 (slow sales, guns shipped out of order).

Joe, when did yours letter as shipping?

Feb 23 1937

Thank you! Might be useful to find the ship dates of the ones that letter.

Makes you wonder how many might slip by unnoticed, not having a roll stamp and hard to see holes on top.