So, Enoch Tue engraved rifles for Savage from 1900 through 1916. Anybody have any idea what serial number range his rifles started at?

The lowest engraved 1899 serial in my data is in the 113xx range. Pictures of the engraved 1899's don't appear till the 1900 catalog. But I have no idea at what serial range Tue started. I would think Tue would have created his own patterns but I might be wrong.

Well, I haven't seen that many engraved 1895's to compare to.


Just curious, since I've got one at 11.5xx. But mine wasn't released from the factory until June 1901, so I'm sure there were quite a few before it.

Jed, that's awesome stuff!

I'll scan in some info I got from Doug regarding engraved rifles. It lists 100 of the engraved rifles from 1900 to 1916, but the lowest serial is 1902 or 1903. Made me wonder what the earliest engraved 1899's were.

It also says that Tue did the engraving from 1900 until 1916, but there wasn't much engraving after 1916 until Goff started the K-type engraving.

IIRC that D engraved 250-3000 I owned,was manufactured in 1920-21
Directory shows Enoch's bride as a widow in 1927

The first gun engraved by Tue was serial #10,000 grade not

known.

Second was serial #10.785 with "D" grade pattern.

Third was serial #11.3xx this was a special order "G" grade

with shotgun butt and "special carving" this was the highest

grade of engraving offered at that time.The factory records

show it was shiped to Roberts Hardware,Utica,NY. Mr. Roberts

was also a director and stockholder of Savage Arms Co.

This gun was shiped on April 14,1900

Rory,

1) Tue did not engrave the 1895's.
2) Might have started working for Savage as early as 1899(?).
3) It is common to find engraved rifles with lower serial numbers than when the rifle was produced. Speculate that receivers were pulled and stored or started and completed later.
4) Murray's numbers can not be used for the early years.
5) From my data I would say that engraved rifles was heaviest in the 1903-1915. Some engraving in the early post WWI period but dropped off fast.

In the list that Jed supplied (great info!)it shows Gough in 1930 and Tue dead in 1927. The K's started in 1926/27...were they all Gough engraved? The "K" pattern is a lesser version of the "A". Lots of unanswered questions, as always.

I Googled Enoch Tue...this posting came up.

Gough came to Savage when Savage bought Fox but he had done
1899-99s when he had his own shop. Guns were shiped in the
white so the factory records say.

Great info! Man, I would LOVE to see that first 1899. Someday it'll probably pop up, can't believe it's gone forever.

I knew he didn't do the 1895's, the Marlin guy did them I believe (can't remember name). I also knew the engraving was more common early on, but didn't know that it tapered off that sharply after WWI.

Wonder if Tue's son did the early K's before Gough, since they were basically a style that had been around for 20 years?


So.. by serial number my rifle is the 4th earliest that's known? That's cool! Now, if only it had lettered..

Conrad Ulrich is the name...it's worthy of remembering

Yes it is.. knew it when I saw it.

Gonna scribble it into my Murray's when I get home.

...no, just from my data. My data is just a sampling of the Savage production. I have info on about 60 engraved rifles. That is a higher percentage than on unengraved rifles but still only about 3%. The engraved guns get cataloged more often.

Doug, I have data on a 99-G with C engraving that was produced 8/1926, 283xxx, 9/8/2002 RIA catalog. That might have been Gough's work. It would be interesting to compare that rifle to an earlier Tue rifle.

I have a big blank from that rifle back to the early 20's. I could use more data if you get your data base running.

I've seen several engraved savages [3 or 4]that did not state engraving in letter, but were obviously factory engraved.Acouple were verified by several established collectors and a couple by what was written in the letter from Callihan. Doug
My opinion is there may be more than a thousand engraved savages including the [K'S]; who knows.

The statement about the 1000 engraved 1899/99 is in the Blue Book and probably others. There have been quit a few Tue engraved rifles that do not show in the log books. Was it just not logged or was it done at home as piece work?

If you just looked through the pre-WWI logs that would be about 4000 log pages. Not a job most people would want.

The pamphlet that Jed posted mentions 300 engraved rifles by Tue prior to WWI -- that was 204 months. Would 1.5 rifles a month be a bad estimate? It obviously depends on the amount of engraving..

Another question on this line is how many rifle could one person engrave in a year? Did Tue only engrave or did he do other work in the slack times? If between 1902 and 1916 (15 years) he engraved one a week that would be about 750 units. Add the slower post war years and you get about 1000. Is that realistic? Could he do two a week or three...I don't know.

Not all engraving was special order. Many were on the books for years. Probably samples for display in the plant or at shows. Some were logged to two or three distributors before they were sold. Might have required some refinish work along the way.

The engraved/special rifles have to be studied as a whole different group having their own questions and problems from the standard production run. What is a given for one may not hold true for the other.

Tue was transient.
You see all his address's?
I'm thinking he did piece work at home.
My understanding was that W.I. King was also a Savage transient,working for SAC in the winter months.

Some where i remember it being stated that other members of Tue's family did engraving at savage also, no to find where i saw it, Great information !!! Don

Writeup on the Tue work from page 2 of the Allen Mabe flyer. Wonder what he means by the term "300 qualified model 99 engraved rifles."?

Don, it does say here that he was helped occasionally by his son.

And that style on the Monarch is totally different than any I've seen before. What an artist!

And.. "Tue hand engraved all model numbers into his rifles"??

Anybody know what this means? Sorry that I'm so ignorant, but there's not a lot of study material out there for engraved Savage 99's.

Rory, that's a hell of a find! Pegging the number at 300 sounds much more plausible to me.

Don, if you check the list that Jed posted there is a Harry Tue that is listed as an engraver. He might be the son of Enoch.

Allen Mabe had 100 engraved rifles by Tue from 1900 through 1916. Considering that he managed to do that, is it reasonable that there are only 300?

1.5 engraved rifles a month sounds reasonable based on the little I've heard from other engravers.. but??

A quick glimpse at one that just sold on auction.

Grade B engraving, SN 38.8xx, November 1903. Can you imagine cranking something like this out in a coupl of weeks with tools from 105 years ago?

Whoops.. Don't forget a pistol for Buffalo Bill. 300 rifles and 1 pistol? :Grin:

http://www.icollector.com/item.aspx?lid=343820

Who had the most engrave Savages at one time?
Who still has all the info on that collection?

Leroy's is where we saw the rifle w/the brass plug in the chamber.
IIRC it had all Marlin motif's engraved on the reciever...and a Colt buttplate.
Rick should have a picture it.

Doug, the Allen Mabe collection is the largest collection I've heard of with engraved rifles. Was there one bigger?

Yes

FUG, A man of few words!!! Don

Okay Rick, Jed, Jeff, etc.. who had the largest collection?

The Dodge Collection (Texas?)is ringing a bell here.
I know Fug has quite a smathering of engraved rifles.

Is the question "who had" or "who has"? Most that have been named and some not named have been sold.

Who had the most engraved savages at any one time, he bought

the Allen Mabe collection and added to it with guns of his own

if I remenber correctly.

Hmm.. I built a background from some pictures of a collection that Jed posted a while back. They wouldn't/couldn't give out the owner of the collection, which was fine... everybody has a right to privacy. I'll repost my collage.

Jed, if I shouldn't post these let me know and I'll remove it asap..

Are these part of that collection?

Wow! Those are absolutely beautiful rifles. Whomever owns that collection is lucky indeed.

Thanks for making up the collage and sharing it,
Mike

Post some more...I don't tire of looking at them pics...and now wish we had taken many more.

and ponder me this...why would Savage put a brass plug in the chamber?
( I suspect it was done after it left the factory)

George Adams had a large group of engraved rifles at one time.

As I recall, George did some writing on Savage engraved rifles in gun magazines etc. and he made reference to a book he intended to publish about same. Last time I talked to him out in Tulsa he indicated an unexpected divorce etc. caused him to change plans and many of his rifles were necessarily disposed of. Damn shame! George is a colorful and interesting Texas kind of guy. Wish we had more like him around.

Doug, you got me. I don't know. Kind of interesting following the trail of these rifles.

Jan 1988 Guns magazine had an article "Refined Savages" by George Adams. It features photos of a cased engraved 1899 that was made for Horace Dodge of the Dodge Corporation. Adams indicated that this gun had features of both a Monarch and Rival.
It mentions that he was planning to write a book, what a pity it never came to be.
BillR

Rory
First time I am seeing those pictures.WOW!What a collection.Whouldnt mind owning some of those.Thanks for posting.Jed thanks for sharing those and the info.


Mike

Calhoun,
That certainly is a nice Grade B.
As you may know I do know a little about the art. What you may find interesting is how long it takes some to engrave. I have a record of the Boss Gun Company in England in which is a letter to their engraving company in which they want a matched pair of doubles engraved in the best quality work and that the customer needed them completed for Christmas. The date on the letter is Dec 21st. Oh yes they also needed to case harden the actions and blue the remaining parts. That is an engraving job!

LRF, if I remember correctly, you have done some engraving. How long would you expect it to take a full time engraver to do a rifle like Rory's ("B" = Leader grade)?

I don't know exactly but there is a way to do a calculation.
Take the price Savage received for a Grade B gun, take 50 to 66% of the cost (this is what the engravers was paid) and then divide it by what an honest hours wage was in the early 20th century. I don't know what that was but a little research on the web could reviel that number. This would give you an estimate as good as any I could offer.
One difference between a 99 and say a Boss double is number of pieces. The more pieces the more people can be working on the gun at one time. For the 99 it is basically just one piece and only one person can work on it at a time. Many firms had numerous engravers in various stages of skill. I do not know about Mr. Tue but I suspect he had assistants from time to time and I would also guess that gun engraving was just part of his engraving business.

Good idea! Savage would not be doing the engraving at a loss. We know the additional cost of the different engraving patterns and I think there is some labor costs stated in the Perris letters.

In 1904 a skilled toolmaker received $3.75/day. So, if Tue was paid $4 to $5/day and "B" grade engraving cost $10 extra, we are looking at around two days labor.

15 years (1901-1916) x 300 days (6 day week?)/ 2 days per unit average = 2250 units. That is a very ruff calculation but in his total time at Savage I think the 1000 units published would have been very possible. Probably more.

Comments????

Going from Mabe's flyer.. 204 months == 4080 work days == 2000 units if 2 days per. Close to your number.

But I agree with dropping it down to 1000'ish also, you have to presume that he did other stuff and wasn't 100% busy every day.


2 days to do B engraving.. wow. In today's terms, that'd be $50 - $75/hour for a total of $800 to $1200?

Rick, To the best of my knowledge I believe there were also about 200 factory engraved Savage pistols produced between 1907 and 1928. Not sure if or how much of a role Tue may have played.

The 1000 guns were only 1899-99. This did not take in what was done out side the factory.

Rick & Calhoun,
Nice math. 10 hour days, 2 days seems very right to me. The Grade B engraving is not complicated and the patterns were very standard.

The $75 maybe a bit light for today but the calculations are very reasonable and $1200 to $1600 is not out of the question. I think you have it.

Mr Tue was probably a busy person and as I said most likely not all he engraved was guns. Engraving names on jewelry and other articles could have easily consummed a good share of his time. We will never know since that stuff was never recorded.

It is an interesting subject for this group of collectors to ponder. Very nice subject and I hope I have added some value.

LRF, don't how much he would have done on the side. As I understand it he was a Savage employee up through the 1920's. Though it sounds as though he may have done some engraving on Savages before he went to work for them.

Ok, thanks

The factory records showed TUE bought guns that later showed up

as some of the most engraved 1899's ever done.

Jed do you have a picture of the "Lion's Head" rear sight?

John, as Tue is reported to be the only engraver the pistols would be his work also.

There are also engraved 1903's and 1914's (.22's) and probably other models as well.

Good thought Rick. I plumb forgot about 22's etc. I have seen a couple of 22's that were outstanding.

Does anyone have a factory letter on an engraved gun that they could share with us. George Adams indicated in a 1988 article that these engraved rifles might simply be marked as "special order" in the records.
He also indicated that the work orders from which the engraver worked are thought to have been destroyed.
Perhaps we will never know how many engraved 1899s existed at one time.
BillR

Heres a ledger page...70152 was Kings rifle.
No mention of the engraving...

Heres a family write up on King...

Jed, have we seen a picture of the King rifle? Not sure which one it is.

BillR, I have a Tue engraved rifle where the letter from Callahan shows no mention of the engraving. So even if most rifle entries do mention engraving, there are others that aren't mentioned and we'll never be able to count them from the records.

Callahan mentioned at the Fest that it's normal for engraved rifles to be noted in the records, but it's not unheard of to have no mention.

King rifle...

Wow! That's beautiful engraving and stock work. What's the story behind the "king rifle"?

Thanks for sharing,
Mike

What story ya lookin for?
How I sweated for weeks waiting for the rifle to arrive from AZ?
Calhoun,
Leroy told me on one rifle that was entered in the Savage records that reads "sell to Tue for good price".

Is it posssible that some guns were sold to dealers, shipped to the dealer and then the dealer returned them to Mr Tue directly, for engraving when a customer decided to upgrade the rifle? And it was never recorded in the records because it never when thru Savage. My 2 cents

IMHO- Somestimes they just did not record the details,depending on who was doing records that day,week or year.It was not in there mindset that someday people would collect these rifles and want detailed info.remember this was way back when...
I have an engraved savage in rival grade,yet it does not mention it in the letter.However it does say in Callahans letter "note to engrave butt". It also goes on to say that the original consignee is F. Peters, who was Frederick Peters,a savage export dealer with offices in Athens, Greece and Hamburg, Germany.
I am certain it is factory engraved and has 3x wood with flame checkering.Buttplate is not engraved andall serial numbers match. I'm sure he used it as a salesman's sample to show to potential customers.
As I said earlier,I think there are more than a few factory engraved rifles that are factory, but not mentioned in a letter.I myself have had 3 or 4 that were not specifically mentioned in letters. I'm sure others that have had egraved rifles also have noticed this. Doug

That 32-40 1/2 Octagon that I sold to Rick a few years back was also shown in the ledger as going to W.I. King.
Would surprise me none if King took the 32-40 for services rendered to SAC.

On vintage Marlin rifles, it was common for factory engraving not to be mentioned in the factory ledgers also. Even more so than Savage. I wonder if for the same reason or reasons (whatever the reasons really were)??

nice to know