Winchester Model 70

On a Winchester Shotgun Reciever

MP Stamp on Colt 1905 Pistols

If ya need to see more, Buy "Arms & Accoutremonts of the Mounted Police" by Phillips and Klancher Les

the model 70 makes me smile. wonder how many have to come out of there stock? and the big question how does the size of the stamp compare???

Willing to bet it is the same stamp size on all but the shotgun reciver. But it is very distinctive. Les

Educate yourself.Read the book.Ample pictures for those unable to read.

Can someone explain to me why the MP stamp would be put UNDER the stockline. Versus all other "acceptance" stamps being above stock line for ease of viewing.

Also, IIRC, the agreement of the group was that the Savage rifles viewed were stamped BEFORE the barrels were blued.

There are too many Savage rifles to have been stamped at RCMP facilities. Were all vendors trying to meet RCMP standards in anticipation of large orders in 1927, and thus had in-house inspectors accept (stamp) their products? Was there something else going on in the firearms industry that required the MP stamp?

We have a historian with access to weapons that were likely produced in 1927 ('cept for the M70, but how tough is it to reproduce the MP stamp?) Does the historian have official RCMP documentation that explains the MP stamp?

Yes they do, thats where he got it for the book, the Force armorers did the stamping. Get the book....................I did and it opened my eyes quite a bit, and I have even talked to Don Klancher on this, matter of fact it was about 2 years ago, most was thru email. He isn't that hard to find. That was not a Stamp the factories kept on hand. Les

Well..Maybe the inspector visited the factory...liked what he saw...got wined and dined for a few days...left a stamper for the factory to stamp them...just seems to be a lot of them around..

that stamp on the colt frame is much larger than those found on the 99! hard to tell about the model 70 from the picts ho big is is not sure how big the filler screw is. and again ALL of these are exposed for all to see why should only a savage have the stamping hidden.

Les,

I don't want to buy the book.

We have at least two frequent contributors with the book that could properly credit references from the book to help us with this small research project. I can't imagine that the entire book is dedicated to the "MP" stamp, rather a page or two.

Your pictures posted above raise more questions than provide answers. The Model 70 was released in 1935 or so. Given the huge number of individual samples, why are all the Savage guns stamped only in 1927? The Model 70 MP stamp is not the same as any other MP that I have seen. Font is different; mid-point of "M" comes all the way down to same level as "legs". The "M" and "P" look like the letters were stamped individually, with "P" last. Fake, or difference due to period and change of stamp? Given the serial number of the Colt, when was that Colt made? Why is Colt stamped twice? Is above stock-line or below stock-line the more common stamping location? Lots o' questions...

May we have a concise synopsis of what specific claim is made by Klancher, and the evidence he provides? Please? What we have from you and Jed is vague. I'm not trying to pull Klancher down; he has done something admirable that I could not and would not likely do myself. I want to review facts, not review Klancher as a historian.


(p.s., did I leave enough smilies? And I apologize for not trying to lookup the Colt serial number. I don't know Colt websites.)

Actually the stmap is onoe stamp, look closely at them, the are connected, and that is referenced thruout the book. Phillips and Klancher call it a fused MP. They only bought that one year as a tryout. This came from a Letter dated 1973 from Savage Arms. That is in the foot notes in the book, but, that fused MP is stamped on more than just firearms, it was stamped on saddles, and other tack items and also the calvary sabers that the RCMP used. When you see something that predominate in a major Force, you tend to believe that is what it was used for. But hey, I'm not gonna sit and argue about it. I got it from the RCMP historical site, and somehow I don't believe they are gonna authorize false info out like that. Les

Les,

I have looked very closely at the "MP" stamp on the M70 you posted, enlarging it and playing with the lighting. To my eye, it looks like two strikes, with the "P" clearly displacing the metal where the "M" should be. Some on this forum with more experience with stamps and stamping can say better. Without a doubt, it is different than any MP stamp sample I currently have, or any other MP picture ever posted in this forum.

Thank you for the additional info. Can you elaborate on the "Letter dated 1973 from Savage Arms"?

Again, I'm not going to attack the researcher or organization. I will not accept that we can not question "expert testimony", either. (I'd be driving a hybrid Prius, otherwise.) I'm trying to see all the info, including that which was not available to the expert.

They don't elaborate on it in the book, all they did was mark it as a foot note. Les

My latest records on the "MP" stamp consists of 39 MP stamped guns in the serial range of 284388 - 307153 which is a range of 22765 guns. I have only been able to find 3 99s in that range that are not stamped "MP".

Handbook of Identification Marks on Canadian Arms
R. Barrie Manarey
Century Press, Edmonton, Alberta
Page 68, lists MP stamp (separate M and P as well as joined M and P) as being used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police c1935 -19____

Need to get Klancher

Note: 12 of 39 MP stamped guns were known to be 99 H 30-30 carbines.



Caliber Summary: Model Summary:
303 11 A 1
30-30 17 E 2
300 5 F 4
22HP 1 H 18
Unknown 5 K 3 G 5
Unknown 6

Help solve the puzzle, we need more data on 99s in the range of 280,000 to 310,000 as to MP stamped on barrel or not, send to my private emails if you wish.

My big concern is the 3 MP stamped Ks. Mine was shipped on Feb. 27, 1929 to Allcock, Laight and Westwood, Toronto. This ia about 6 years before Manarey says the RCMP used the MP stamp.

BillR

Copy paste threw columns out of whack.

caliber: (39 guns MP stamped)
303 11
30-30 17
300 5
22HP 1
Unknown caliber 5

model: (39 guns MP stamped)
A 1
E 2
F 4
H 18
K 3
G 5
Unknown model 6

BillR, i havent checked any 99H carbines in that serial range, PITA getting the band off without scratching the barrels! Don

Go nice and easy or if you have a hard time using them big mitts of yours on small parts get the wife to do it.


Bwahahahaha!!!!

Right about now she'll burn the forearms off! Don

It's the pre bbl band carbines that will be marked.

I suspect that the barrel band carbines are all above the serial range of the MP mark. I haven't ever taken a forearm off one of mine as they are much higher in number ie 375 - 385 range.
BillR

I remembered that after a bit i think my earliest barrel band with the band is 344xxx! i have a few rifles in the 300xxx range that aren't marked MP. Don

Would love to know model, caliber, serial range to eg 3334XX of those not marked MP.
Those without MP are equally as important in solving the puzzle.
Bill

Bill,

Here's a little research on the Model 20 side of things. Maybe we can add to the list:



OK, so only 5 guns and only 1 with 'MP'. However, smallest and largest serial numbers bound the time when these rifles were stamped. All 'shipped' dates are from Roe Clark or JC letters. The letters have only one date, and do not have a 'received from factory' date as pre-1926 rifles do. I don't have a letter for rifle 11499 with the 'MP' stamp. The 1148? rifle comes from old notes, and was lettered. So, top and bottom are 500 numbers from the stamped rifle, and the middle rifle with the letter date is only 10 or 20 away.

Regarding the barrel address type, it never dawned on me that all stamps on version M20/1926 rifles are for M99 features. They were too cheap to make a M20 stamp when they moved from Featherweight to Lightweight barrels in June of 1926.

Thanks to Brutha' olgrouser for reminding me that the later rifles have Type 6 bbl addresses (Murrays), and not '4' as I posted earlier. I dusted off my Murray's. Page 6-2 notes that the Type 6 patent dates are for M99 features.

FWIW, the shotgun in the picture above is not a Winchester M24, (made 1939-'58, only 116,000 made). Shotgun is an Ithaca, Flues model, made in 1924, by serial number reference. IIRC, the serial number to the Colt pistol was displayed a year or so ago, but I can't find the post. Is the Colt ser# available, anyone? Maybe we should all pony-up, and letter that Fluzie?

Randy, if you want, I can email you a list of the Colt serial numbers tonite. Les

PM or post the numbers, & I'll look them up, if I can. Thks.

I'll PM them to you. Les

Shop around in that book,and you'll find a few Savage pistols that were also stamped MP.

Yes, but the odd thing is, everything else pretty much lists the Serial numbers by model...............all but the savages..of any sort. That kind of frustrated me. Les