I hesitate to bring this up, because I'm sure it'll start a debate, but I'm curious what you all think about a crazy idea that I've been kicking around.

I live in southern Michigan which is a "shotguns only" zone for deer hunting. We'll be having an early doe season in mid September to thin out our booming deer herd. We had a similar season last year, and it was like picking fruit--deer everywhere, completely unschooled about hunters, and perfectly willing to volunteer for the freezer.

This year, I'm kicking around the idea of taking two guns to the stand with me: my scoped Remington 870 12 gauge and my Savage 99 takedown with .410 barrel. My thought is that I'd use the 99 if (and ONLY if) the following conditions are met: 1) Distance under 25 yards 2) broadside shot allowing a double lung hit 3) dry weather allowing good tracking conditions if needed.

I am aware of the limitations of the .410 round (and the 44-40, .357, and other marginal rounds). I'm an experienced hunter, and have taken around 75 deer with rifle, shotgun, muzzleloader and archery gear in the last 35+ years. While I know that the .410 isn't an ideal round, I'm tempted to try it under the conditions I've outlined.

Has anybody here ever used the 99 .410 on deer? Is this idea crazy--or challenging?

Rod

I guess it would work if all the conditions were perfect,not my first choice. Don

If you stay within your self defined paramters I believe you will make some venison. You don't sound like one to take foolish chances.

You're probably overgunned. Heck, these savage guys kill tigers with .22 hi powers.....

Not a choice I would make, but if you feel confident....... Has anyone ever run a slug through one of those setups? Do they have any degree of accuracy? I can't imagine minute-of-deer accuracy at 25 yards would be too tough to achieve......

Sight'er in and go.

The 410 lug will do it.

As you have noted, range is limited.

BMT

sounds like fun. leave the 870 home. you wont need it.
bring us back some pictures!

Id try some slugs on some targets first, see what they shoot like I never shot a slug thru the one I had, keep things in Bow range should be fine! good luck!
John

Should work under those conditions. Probably similar to taking a deer with a 41 mag. pistol. Not like that has never been done before.

Heck, worst case scenario you fire the 410, an if things aren't going the way you want them to: You put the Savage down, pick up the 870 and blow that critter straight to H, E, double hockey sticks.

Randy

Aren't they 2 1/2" guns only? Where do you get slugs?

Yeah, the barrels are chambered for 2 1/2" shells. The shells aren't hard to find. I picked up a couple boxes of Winchester Super X today. I'm told that Remington and federal also make 2 1/2" loads.

Rod

As far as I'm concerned the main problem with using .410 slugs for deer at the kind of ranges you normally get from a tree stand is the lack of sights on many of the .410s that used to be so employed. A .410 Foster-type slug is at least as potent at very close range as a .44WCF factory load or many .357s, especially .357s from a revolver. I've killed one deer with a .410 slug ( a little Columbian blacktail at about 35 yds), three with a .44-40 (one blacktail, one whitetail, one muley, none of them big--one was with a handgun), and three with a .357 revolver (all whitetails). None of these shots was over 50 yards.

The main thing is to sight the slug barrel in carefully. I have no experience with a 99 Savage .410, but my Model 24's .410 barrel shoots nice neat minute-of-deer groups up to about 50 yards. It has a Redfield 2 3/4X on it.

You sound experienced enough to try this experiment.

One of my friends, shortly after open heart surgery, killed 2 deer that season with a 410, 2 1/2" slugs. 1 shot each. My 3 kids started out with a H&R single shot 410. 3 deer fell to that gun. It was pie plate accurate out to about 50 yards. About 45 yards was the furthest deer taken. You should be fine with the peramaters you've set, if it's accurate enough I wouldn't be afraid to stretch it further.

Take a Bowie knife instead of the 870. This could be fun.
I killed my first two WT's w/a Win. 1892 carbine in 38-40.

Without trying to sound too preachy, I think we owe it to our quarry to shoot something that insures a quick kill. I personally think compared to the .357Mag, the .410 slug is a popgun.

I prefer to not do stunts when hunting game.

JMHO, YMMV.

mcknight--

I certainly agree with you about owing the game we hunt a quick and humane death. And to that end, as hunters we equip ourselves with weapons that can accomplish this given our skill levels and other factors. We could all hunt with scope-sighted .300 magnums, thus insuring a quick dispatch of deer at anything less than 300 yards (if we can shoot straight).

But sometimes, we accept the limitations of shorter range weapons: the iron-sighted 99, the side-hammer muzzleloader, the longbow. Hunting with these tools is not a stunt. It's an acceptance of some limitations on the way game can be taken. What I'm asking with this thread is whether or not the .410 round out of a 99 will fit into the limitations I'm outlining.

Rod

Rod...I know this is apples and oranges, but my boy popped two pheasant last season with a .410 pump much to the shagrin of the other hunters and bloggers who said I was crazy to let him try. Single shot clean drops on both at quite a distance! Not the same as a deer, but our statewide hunting/fishing rag publishes photos each season of the deer taken during the early youth hunting season, and there happened to be more than one picture last year of deer taken with .410 slugs by "inexperienced" youth hunters. Given your skill set and parameters, I think you will do fine.

Looking forward to photos Rod!

410 Slug Will do splendid. If Legal in your State go for it.
Illegal in ours because of the distance she can carry.
I have done a couple of bears up at our place in Canada with a 410 slug at 60 Yds. Bang Flop down, Up again, bang Flop down for good.
Steve

The problem is the light for caliber slug - 1/5 or 1/4 oz (88 or 109 grains???). You have no penetration with that (especially when the thin, soft lead expands). I don't think you would get a "double lung" shot on a typical white tail - wouldn't penetrate to the off side lung.

I don't think there is any way you can compare it to a 240 grain cast 44 WCF or a 158 grain 357 or a 45 cal or larger round ball muzzle loader. It just won't penetrate enough.

Can it be done? Sure. You can also drop white tails with a 22 LR or 20 gauge loaded with #6 shot.

Don't get me wrong - I hunt with flintlocks and BPCR rifles. I don't think you need a 300 mag for a white tail, but...

What about respect for the deer? You have an obligation to shoot any animal with enough of a weapon to over come the possibility of the hunters poor aim and bullet placement to produce as clean a kill as possible. 410 slug is not that weapon and the idea should be dropped. IMHO

Rod:

Opened a can of worms didn't ya?

From what I have seen of your posts here...I'd judge you to be an experienced and ethical hunter.

You know what you can do and what you can't do. Use your own judgment.

Randy

I would say if you can stick a deer with surgical accuracy at 25-30 yds. you could probably pull it off. I also think it would be chancy. If in a survival situation I wouldn't hesitate, but if just for bragging rights maybe not. It boils down to the really poor projectile characteristics as mentioned earlier. I think you'll find that it's about like shooting a .38 Special (or a bit less)- a far cry from a .357 or .38/40.

The guys I goose hunt with pulled a stunt with.410's last season. We decided to each of us shoot at least one Canada Goose with every gauge shotgun. The 10, 12, 16 and 20 gauge kills were average kills. The ones we shot with 28's and .410's died hard. I felt pretty bad for a couple of them. We agreed that we proved the point that pretty much any gun will kill anything but we also agreed to keep the sub gauges out of our goose pits. (I normally shoot 12ga. handloads of 1 1/8- 1 3/8 oz. of Nice Shot- non tox that weighs close to lead. The .410's were 5/8oz. of #2's, 11/16oz. of #4's- Bismuth. All we could squeeze into the tiny hulls.)

I must confess to being curious about how you make out.

Rod:

Pretty bored tonight so did a little quick research on the federal website for ya.

.410 1/4 oz slugs delivers 574ft/lbs of energy at 25 yards.

357 magnum 140 grain Barnes bullet delivers 546ft/lbs at 25 yards.

41 mags deliver in the low 600's at 25 yards and 44 mags in the low 700's

Take it for what it is worth.

Honestly, don't think I would want to get hit with any of them.

Randy

http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/
This link might help.

Thanks for the info Randy and Polecat. I'm headed to my cabin for the weekend and I'm planning to do some shooting, including some slug testing with the 99 takedown. I fitted it with a Lyman tang sight this evening; this should give me all the accuracy the barrel is capable of.

I haven't decided yet whether to use this on deer or not, but if I do, rest assured that it will be a close range proposition. I hunted with longbows and recurves for many years and I'm used to letting deer beyond 25 yards walk.

Rod

I have an M6 in 410-22 Hornet that I have tested pretty extensively. The 1/5 oz slugs from Win and Rem are very frangible. The 1/4 oz Federal is not great but does better. It also shoots well from a full choke. None of these penetrate really well on wet newsprint but the Federal is the best by a fair margin. Not only are they really light for caliber but the darn things are soft and expand.

I have seen tests of a Brenneke slug which is much tougher and penetrates better than these Forster slugs.

I am not a huge fan as I would choose the 22 Hornet on deer over the .410 barrel. In a survivalo situation I'd do it but not otherwise.

Many of the people voicing their opnion have never used a 410 and are just guessing as to the performance of the slug. my brother and I have taken many bucks and other deer with a 410 and never had a single problem. we also took Quail, Phesants ,grouse, rabbits, squirrel, and a couple turkeys.

I have taken deer with my Pa 45 cal muzzle loader with round ball softlead at 80 to 100 yds with no problems.never had a chance to take a Bear but would if it was legal and I came upon one.

PS: you can get Brenneck slugs for it. also 2 1/2 inch work fine..

I'm no ballistics or hunting expert but IIRC the ballistics on the 410 are very similar to the .45 cal pistol. Your parameters sound very ethical to me.

Except for the weight, construction and sectional density of the bullet. The 17 rem has even better ballistics but the same problem - penetration. But some folks report spectacular results on deer with the 17 so...

My personal minimum is for deer a 20 gauge... not that it can't be done otherwise, just my personal opinion.

All this talk has made me even more curious. I'm headed to the bench this weekend with the 99 and three brands of slugs I picked up (Winchester, Remington, and Federal). I hope the Federals will group, as they are a tad bit heavier (1/4 oz vs 1/5 oz). I'll report the results when I get back next week.

Rod

All this talk has made me thirsty!

Friday night...quitn' time!

Randy

I say go for it if it is legal in your state and you stay within your parameters. In Nebraska only 20 ga. slugs and larger are legal for hunting big game. Of courese most deer hunting here is done with rifles rather than shotguns but that might change in the eastern half of the state in the near future. Looking forward to seeing pictures.