The data i've seen for the 303 seems primarily to be 30-30 data reduced by 5%. The 303 has slightly more case capacity than the 30-30 and is chambered in a stronger action. Why is the 303 loaded to lower pressures? Thanks for any answers you may have.

My Lyman #44 lists the min/max charges as almost identical for equal weight bullets. I don't think many of the newer manuals list the .303 Savage and I have heard comments about subbing .30-30 data less 5%. The .303 data usually includes a loading for a heavier bullet than for the .30-30. I'm not sure how the pressure is affected.

Ballistically, the .303 Savage is similar, but slightly superior to the .30/30 Winchester cartridge. In fact, according to my old reloading manual, the .303 Savage uses .308-inch JACKETED bullets just like most .30 caliber U.S. cartridges and indicates that SOME .303 Savage rifles might use .311 CAST bullets, but that no JACKETED bullet larger than .308 should be used in any .303 Savage rifle. If in doubt, you should have your individual rifle�s bore size checked by a competent gunsmith.

My old Reloading Handbook (circa 1970) indicates the .303 Savage will put out a 150 grain bullet in the 2400-2450 feet/per/second velocity range yielding a muzzle energy of approximately 2,000 ft/lbs.

A big advantage the Model 99 Savage has over most other lever-action rifles is it's rotary magazine which allows you to use spitzer (pointed) bullet rather than the blunt nosed bullets that most lever action rifles must use. These ballistically-superior pointed bullets are aerodynamically superior compared to blunt-nosed bullets and retain their downrange velocity much better thus increasing the downrange striking power of your .303 Savage Rifle.

Rick99 will probably be able to give you more statistics on the rifle, itself... but your .303 Savage cartridge is still an excellent deer cartridge.

Below, I�ve listed some loads for the .303 Savage cartridge. NOTE: THE MAXIMUM LOADS MAY BE DANGEROUS IN YOUR RIFLE, APPROACH THEM WITH CAUTION.


Firearm used: Savage Model 99, 26-inch barrel
.308 inch Groove Diameter
Twist: 1-12
Remington Cases
Rem.9� primers, large rifle primer
Bullet diameter, jacketed or cast = .308 inches
Maximum Case Length = 2.015�
Maximum Overall Length (with bullet) = 2.520�



150 GRAIN JACKETED BULLET

IMR 3031 - Starting load = 30.0 grains, Muzzle Velocity = 2169 fps
Maximum load 33.0 gr. = 33.0 grains, MV = 2392 fps

IMR4895 - Starting load = 33.0 grains, MV = 2202 fps
Max. load 36.0* grains, MV = 2392 fps

IMR4064 - Starting load = 32.0 grains, MV = 2123 fps
Max. load 36.0* grains, MV = 2403 fps

IMR4320 � Starting load =32.0 grains, MV = 2105 fps
Max. load 36.0* grains, MV = 2444 fps

* indicates a compressed load

ACCURACY LOAD � IMR4895, 33.0 grains = 2202 fps




170 GRAIN JACKETED BULLET

IMR3031 � Starting load = 28.0 grains, MV = 1949 fps
Max. load 31.0 grains, MV = 2173

IMR4895 � Starting load = 30.0 grains, MV = 1949 fps
Max. load 33.0* grains, MV = 2136 fps

IMR4064 � Starting load = 30.0 grains, MV = 1930 fps
Max. load 33.0* grains, MV = 2132 fps

IMR4320 � Starting load = 30.0 grains, MV = 1886 fps
Max. load 33.0 grains, MV = 2105 fps

* indicates compressed load

ACCURACY LOAD � IMR3031, 28.0 grains, MV = 1949 fps.



190 JACKETED BULLET

IMR4895- Starting load = 30.0 grains, MV = 1870 fps
Maximum load = 33.0 grains, MV = 2005 fps

IMR3031- Starting load = 28.0 grains, MV = 1835 fps
Max. load = 31.0 grains, MV = 1980 fps

IMR4064- Starting load = 30.0 grains, MV = 1855 fps
Max. load = 32.0 grains, MV = 2025 fps

IMR4320- Starting load = 32.0 grains, MV = 1875 fps
Max. load = 36.0 grains, MV = 2145 fps


I recommend using the 150 grain, .308-inch Nosler Ballistic Tip or Partition bullet in front of your choice of rifle powder for deer hunting.

Good Hunting... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Strength & Honor�

Ron T.

Hi.I reload for the 303. and use 308 jacketed bullets, the savage & stevens arms collector edition,by Jay Kimmel, on page 232 says that all 303 barrels were made with 308 bores,and I am inclined to believe that, I use lead bullets in that and other rifles,and pistols and as every one knows you must use an 2 to 3 thousand over size bullet for max, accurcy when using lead bullets, and I beleive that is where the myth of 311 bullets began,as there was lead bullets loaded for the 303. as Ron T says cast bullets not jacketed. if any one finds a rifle with a larger bore than 308,I and most everyone on this forum would probly like to know. Hubert <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I owned a 303 before but gave it to one of my kids. I was getting poor velocity and accuracy. I had the barrel slugged and it measured .3105. I then used 180 gr. Speer bullets in .311 and had good results. My Lee loading dies had load information as did a Winchester loading manual which list bullet diameter as .311. Is it possible that Savage produced rifles in .311 for at least a short period of time? Thanks for the great loading data,those are the numbers that I thought should be produced.

Do you know the serial range of your .303?

Hi,

Have read an article in regards to the 303 Savage and its bullets.

Apparently, the following factory loadings showed the following bullet dia. (1948):

Western - .3088"
Winchester - .3085"
USCo. - .3085"
Peters - .3084" (prior to the Inner-Belted)
Remington - .3110"

Also, I have acquired a few boxes of 190Gr KKSP bullets made by CIL that are listed as a .311 bullet but actually are .310" bullets. They are supposedto be for the 303 Savage, and look identical to the old Imperial / CIL bullets in the factory loads.

I will be pulling a few bullets from some old ammo and will be posting my findings.

I will be also scanning the article I have and will compile a pdf file to share with the group.

The article goes on to say that the 303 Sav. is a .308" barrrel but was loaded with larger bullets to increase pressure and velocity.

Would like to see the data that someone mentioned using the 311" bullets.

Chris

i'm with kyle..my 303 is .310". and it's at the back of the safe, so i don't want to dig it out to tell the serial number. the older loading books lists the 303 savage as using .311 bullets too. so i tried to use .308".....wouldn't hit the barn wall! switched to 180 .311" and 2" 100yd groups common.......
so tell like you want to....but as for mine, it takes .311" bullets at better than 30-30 velocity's too!

Chris,

What is the artical that listed Remington using .311 bullets and does it say what year(s) it was done?

Rick,

The article is from Handloader May/June 1985.

The list of 303 Bullets from factory loads was apparently compiled in 1948. The factory loads had to be pre-1949. The article makes reference to Philip Sharp's "Complete Guide To Handloading" for this data.

On a side note, I have not slugged the barrels of my 303 Savages, but they both shoot .308 bullets just fine. About 2"-3" groups at 100 yards with a peep sight.

I believe the 303 Savages were made with .308 barrels but oversized bullets were loaded to increase pressures and velocities.

I suspect guns with a lot of these oversized bullets thru them are now showing signs of larger dia barrels.

I am working on getting this article scanned at a decent size for distribution. My bullet puller will be here tomorrow and I will be gathering data for factory loads of the following bullets:

Remington 180Gr - (two different boxes of different years)
Dominion / CIL / Imperial - 190 Gr. (three differnet boxes of different years)
Winchester / Western - 190 Gr. (two different boxes of different years)

Chris

Kyle,

Could you share the Winchester and Lee Load data for .311 bullets if you still have it?

Chris

The only listing in the Winchester manual is for a 170 gr. bullet. Itis 33.5 W748 at 2090 fps, at 32,000 C.U.P. The 30 30 load is at 36,000 C.U.P. The Lee listings are quite extensive. My e-mail is [email][email protected].[/email] E-mail me your address and I'll mail you a copy.

I called my son and he said the seial # is 200973. He said the first # is badly worn and be a 1.

Looks like 1910 or 1920's range. I think Chris might be correct in that wear might be the case for the larger bores.

JMO

Chris,

I'm very interested in seeing what you find. Please post the headstamp and the box pattern of the rounds you measure.

Rick, I have several 303's ser# from 1044x to 336xxx in C's,B's,A's,an F,H,and a couple of G's and one of my C's has 310 bore, ser#92xxx. It doesn't shoot that great with 308 pills. But up here in Maine we don't shoot'em much over fifty yards away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



just a little more info for Ya Plab

See the results of my bullet pulling of 303 factory ammo here:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/c_wereley/303s.htm

Chris

Nice work Chris. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyone know of a study of the effects of shooting over sized bullets in relation to barrel wear?

I have an old 1899 sn 14xxx in 303. Loaded a few rounds with 33grn IMR4895 behind some hornady 308 150grn rn in new norma cases, uncrimped. 8 of 10 primers show signs of excess pressure (protruding, slight bulging). My bore isn't the greatest looking thing but I don't see what could be causing the pressures. What should I be looking for?

An interesting note, the RCBS dies I bought for this round had a 311 dia neck sizer.

That is a minimum load for 4895. Doesn't sound like a pressure problem. Maybe soft primers? Does the die size down for the .308 bullet? If you are only using these cases in this rifle I would use a .308 neck expander and neck size only.

There are more experianced loader here than me. May be we will get some more in put.

2004 posting...you been doing some back reading! Welcome to the group.

Kyle, I have a Savage 99H Carbine in .303. I bought it for very little on an auction because it has been completely refinished both wood and metal and drilled & tapped for a scope. It's no collector. But I bought it to shoot. It's a neat little rifle and it was made in 1928. I could never get it to shoot and it does have a .308" bore. I got this load form an old Lyman manual and the first time out it shot like a champ.

Load "1" - 6-23-10 Labeled "Hunting Load"
Caliber: .303 Savage
Powder: IMR 3031 29.5 Gr. 0.5 Gr. Below Max.
Bullet: Sierra 150 gr. FP (.30-30 Bullet)
Primer: WLR
OAL: ???? Crimped in cannelure.
Source: Old Lyman Manual.
Remarks: Says */- 2,300 FPS.

It eats up the .30-30 flat point bullets and puts them in small groups. It never shot at all with the spitzer bullets. It shoots 1" groups at 100 yards and that's plenty good for me, and old rifle and a cheap azz Tasco throw away 4x scope. Not much difference in the thutty-thutty.

I think I've eliminated the primers as a problem. Just tried my 300 savage 99 with WLR primers (same as 303), 39.3 grn IMR 4895, Win cases, same 150 grn rn 308 bullets. No problems.

When I go looking for information I dig deep.

I've had protruding primers on some starting loads, not from overly high pressure but rather from not enough pressure to push the brass back firmly enough to flatten the primer.

If you have a chrony, try checking the velocity. Symptom might disappear as you increase the charge.

I don't have my reloading manuals with me, so I'm trusting your statement that the stated load is actually a starting load.

Could it be a head-space problem?? I have done this in the past- cut two or three discs of notebook paper(aprox. .003" thick)and slip a full length sized case into the chamber. If you can put three of the discs on the bolt face and close the action, then take it to a gunsmith.

That's the identical load I use in my .303 with 150 grain round nose core lokts. It is a minimum load so you could go up to 36.0. I also use the old Lyman manual.

I've not had those problems with a .303 so don't know how to advise.

Does the action lock up tight?

locks up tight

Kyle, the .303 Savage and the 30-30 (in a Winchester 94) can be loaded to about 40,000 to 41,000 psi. The 5% reduced load data you refer to does not necessarily mean that pressures aren't equal. The cases are different and different case capacities with the same load can give different pressures. In reality, the two are for all practical purposes, equivalent.

The comparison of load data that I've done indicates no real difference. Some loads in the 30-30 are lower velocity than .303 loads with the same powder and bullet, some are higher. The .303 in my opinion shines with the heaver bullets, 170's to 190's. There's not much load data for bullets heavier than 170's in the 30-30 to even compare the two.

I've had good results w/ cast bullets sized to .311 over 16 grains of Alliant 2400 or IMR 4227. Very good accuracy and powerful enough to shoot deer a close ranger.

Looking for some Help & recommendations

I have a savage 1899H (I think). Shotgun butt plate, 20' barrel, takedown model, NO pistold grip or engravings. It is in great condition, barrel looks really good. I want to hunt with it in the big woods here in Maine. I think I want to shoot a 150gr load with a faster powder instead of the heavier 190gr bullets given my shorter barrel length.
I just bought 2 boxes from Wisconsin Cartridge Co., which seem to shoot pretty well. They are remanufactured (obviously) with PPU brass, 33gr H335 and 180gr Round nose Soft point.

Questions:
1) does anybody know about the amount of freebore in the chamber? I am wondering how close I can get to the rifling and still have the cartridges cycle thru the magazine. I know its a levergun, and I will likely never need to shoot farther than 100yrds, but I would like to get it dialed in for decent accuracy if I can. I can get an OAL guage and test it out nonetheless.
2) What do you all recommend for crimping? Standard light/medium crimp just to ensure uniform pressures....
3)Anybody have any good loads for deer hunting they would be willing to share and recommend? Thinking mostly about 150gr (Hornady Interlock RN) but I am open to suggestions
4) Lastly, what does everyone do in relation to resizing? Brass is obviously not cheap, so I would like to extend the life as much as possible. Nobody makes a Neck Re-sizing die for 303 savage that I can find. Is it possible to use a Lee FL die and partially push the case up into the die to push the shoulder down a bit when cases get a little tight in the action?


Been researching this really cool gun for a while now. Took me a while to find this forum, glad I found it!

Welcome to the campfire. Will81! Your rifle sounds like an 1899H or an early 1920's 99F, the only difference between the two really being the serial number range (the 1920's 99F is literally just a renamed 1899H). Under 236,000 would be 1899H, over 236,000 would be 99F.

1) I've never managed to get very close to the lands on any of my 99's. I stick to standard COAL's for cartridges to ensure they load in the rotor and feed properly, and that's about what we have. Accuracy is still usually pretty good.
2) I don't crimp 99 bullets unless there's a chance I might also use them in a tube stack gun like my dad's Marlin.
3) I used the Hornady 150gr in a 303 Savage load with H4895 and it performed very well. Not a speed demon, but the deer took 3 steps and fell over.
4) I full length resize. Neck sizing can work fine, but I've got multiple rifles in 303 Savage and don't want to separate the reloads. For paper shooting, I tend to use as minimum of load as is accurate and that extends brass life a lot.

I thought the early .303 were .311, then about 40,000 serial number changed to .308, I think I read that in Ken Waters "PET LOADS?

I know you are looking for load data, but, I bought 10 boxes of 190 GR Silvertips. My 1928 F in 303 kills deer quite dead with them.

Everything we’ve found indicates that the rifle bores were always .308” (or intended to be), but some early ammunition was loaded with .311” bullets.

I tend to keep my loads on the tame side. Have taken several whitetail within 100 yards with my 1920 model 1899H .303 Sav with this load and it is accurate enough with receiver sight.

This. Savage tried .311 bullets in their .308 bores at first in a vain attempt to squeeze more performance out of it. Obviously a pipe dream.

Just treat it like a .30-30 and you'll be ok.

I like heavy bullets in a .303, but then again I like heavy bullets in a .30-30 too. 28 grains 3031 + a 190 grain cast bullet in both of them, interchangeably. Big medicine.

Since dead is dead, that sounds like an outstanding load.

Calhoun,

Are you at maximum OAL of 2.525" (I think thats what it is off hand), or are you going a tad shorter? Whichever way, is there any particular reason, or are you just seating to the cannelure and calling it good?

Does anybody have experience using LeverEvolution in their 303sav loads? Anybody find a reason to try and copy Hornady's Leverevolution 30-30 round with the 160gr FTX?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14794656/1

You can actually to clear out to 2.600" +/- couple thou, depending on your individual rifle. The magazine is the limiting factor for most rotary mag 99s, not the chamber/throat length . My pet 303 loads are 110 Nosler ETips over IMR3031 or IMR4320, and the COAL is ~2.597" on them. Aside from a few round and flat noses I fiddled with early on after I got the rifle, all my 303S loads are light spire points well over 2.520"

With the round/flat noses, I generally found mine to be happy for accuracy seating them right around the cannelure, though.

I usually stick to 2.52” coal. A bit longer like 2.6” probably would work fine, but I don’t think I’ve ever needed it. My 303’s are plenty accurate as is with factory length.

Agreed 100%... no need to go long with rn/fn bullets.

Mine are just long because of ogive with pointy bullets. It was a bit of a hokey pokey fiddling around to find which bullets I could get to fit in the mag and feed well, and which ones I couldn't with that long case neck. 30-30 actually lends itself a bit better to them in a 99 than 303, but I did find a few that work well in the 110-130 grain range.

Always meant to try some lightweight spitzers in the 303, never got around to it. Tried some 150's, but you lose too much powder space by the time the bullet is seated far enough back to fit in the magazine. A 110gr spitzer would be a nice varmint cartridge in a 303.

Mine feeds and shoots the 110 Sierra Varminter, 110 Nosler ETip, and 125 Sierra Pro Hunter very well. The Speer 130 hollow points shoot well, but they feed very poorly. None of them are very hot loads, velocities chronoed between 2100-2250fps. My rifle seems to like them best in the 2150fps range. IMR4320, Accurate 4064, IMR 3031 all give me good results.

I prefer 3031 for the ETips over the other two because you're not heavily compressing the powder, makes consistent seating easier. All 3 powders work well with the other bullets.

The Barnes 110 TTSX, Hornady 125 HP and Speer 125 TNT bullet profiles are too long to get good neck tension while still fitting short enough for the magazine length.

My rifle has a really oversized chamber and throat, so the lighter bullets are the ticket for low recoil fun loads for me. Cast won't shoot in it at all, and mild loads with heavier bullets get a lot of blowback and brass sooting because the cases don't seal in that huge chamber with light loads.

Anybody know how to work a Lee Full length sizing die to only size the neck and not the body of the brass? I would like to extend my case life as much as possible but nobody makes a neck sizer for 303sav.

I am anticipating that after 2 or 3 reloads I will need to bump the shoulder back down a bit....

Is that just a matter of not pushing the case all the way thru the die? Only putting say the top 1/3 of the case thru the die or until you feel a touch of resistance then backing out?

I've not had much a brass issue with FL sizing. I'm getting 7-8 firings before they neck split on PPU 303 brass, and that's with a massively oversized chamber and not annealing it.

Buffaloarms had PPU 303 brass marked down to less than $9 a bag if you bought 5+ a while back, not sure if they're still fire saling them like that or not. I bought enough to last the rest of my life.

That's pretty much how I do it, just the top 2/3 or so. Never bought a dedicated neck sizing die. Never had to bump the shoulder back either. The only additional protocol I follow is to run the .303 Savage case neck into an M die that expands the neck and flares the mouth to accept the .310" diameter cast bullets I use. Leaving that bottom portion of the neck unsized helps to position the bullet straight into the throat/leade of the rifle in which the case had previously been fired in.

The only reason to full length size is if you're feeding multiple guns with the same chambering, and even that's not a guarantee that you'll have to.

In the end what matters most is getting the bullet in straight. How you accomplish that is up to you. The best device I ever bought to increase the statistical accuracy of my ammo is a Sinclair concentricity gauge with a dial indicator. A real eye opener that thing was. It set me on a path to suss out the deficiencies in my handloading protocols. Worth its weight in gold, IMO.