Ended auction , sold.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=219429627A 219 marked US w/flaming bomb ? What branch of the military would have used this ? and for what ?
Mike
Mike
My Best Guess Would Be Airforce-Bomber Detail.
Believe it or not they used shotguns and clay birds to train bomber machine gunners and fighter pilots
Deflective shooting. Country boys seemed to be best at this as they had already learned the concept from shooting at pheasants, grouse, prairie chickens and such as boys
More likely was used as recreational loaners to servicemen who wanted to hunt/shoot locally and needed to borrow a gun. Quite a few oddball martially marked sporting guns turn up with that kind of provenance.
Aerial gunnery was introduced to recruits with autos, pumps and doubles on skeet ranges. I never heard of a single shot being used. Tough for those second birds on doubles!
That, or somebody doctored it with U.S. and flaming bomb stamps. There are a lot of them out there so beware. I know a guy who owns a bunch of flaming bomb, US, and inspectors stamps- and uses them, regrettably, to freshen up faint marks on Garands. All of his stamps were bought aftermarket. They're not genuine gov't issue, but you can't tell them apart.
I have heard stories that 219's smoothbores in 22 SHOT were used to shoot birds inside of blimp hangers --- just a story??? First thing I looked for on this receiver was if it appeared to have been a 22 - which it doesn't so a line gun sounds reasonable. Some Savage 720's were used for aerial gunnery practice.
I have some .45-70 line cartridges did the US military use other calibers?
No, to the best of my knowledge .45/70 was the only one. Removed from service quite some time ago, due to sailors getting injured.
I googled "line guns" and found images of Savage single shots.
I agree with gnoahhh, a "doctored" gun this is becoming
common with military rifles.
They used some Winchester model 94 carbines,guarding some of the west coast sawmills during WW1 ,they were marked with a flaming bomb and were nick named "spruce guns". i think it was a couple hundred 94,s Don
Interesting Loggah, I didnt know that. Slightly off topic,
but I have seen S&W M10 snub nose revolvers stamped HONG KONG
on the strap.
My BIL was engineering officer on the USS Batfish nuke fast attack sub back in the early 80's. They would occasionally do line throwing drills and he always took care to pocket the empties which he gave to me. I'll have to ask him if he remembers the make of gun that was used.
Savage made line-guns. The model 94 singleshot. Was in 45-70 Smoothbore cal.
Is there any way to date that receiver based on the roll engraving? Haven't seen all that many, but I don't recall seeing one with engraving. Also, the engraving with birds suggests it was delivered as a shotgun (220). It is not stamped with the model number - seems most were.
Possibly a fake. If not, probably the surviving parts of a combo rifle/shotgun that was purchased to use the shotgun barrel for gunnery training in 1942, or the back end of a 12 guage 220 that was purchased for that purpose and later had a 219 barrel added and the 12 guage barrel lost or swapped onto another gun.
I've seen several US-marked 220s, but never a US-marked 219. Would need a pretty convincing provenance to prove it is kosher. But it, like all things Savage, IS possible.
The military did use 22's to teach instinctive shooting and used small round disc for targets.
Savage 220's and 219's were made ate the old Savage works at Utica New York prior to WWII, post-war guns were made in Massachusetts.
A 219 will have a different (smaller) firing pin than a 220 shotgun.
I've read that some State Guards acquired singleshot rifles and shotguns after their 1903's and 1917's were called back into federal service in 1942. I have a 220 which has a 2 digit hand-stamped serial number on the receiver bottom, and the letters "PA" stamped into the stock wood just ahead of the wrist. I've always wondered about those markings.
Most of the Royal Hong Kong Police M10s were stamped RKHP plus a 3 or 4 digit rack number on the backstrap.
I agree that the bird roll marking on the "219" probably means it was a 220 originally. Probably a gun bought by Army Air Corps and used for clay targets/aircraft gunnery training--"LEAD that little bast---"!!!
Chicopee Falls 219's had birds done in roll markings and the frams are so marked, on my lap are two one in 22HORNET ONE IN
30-30 also 220 had the same roll marking one stamp for all!!
Interesting; I've only seen 220s with that scene. Another "never say never".... I assume that the combination rifle/shotguns also had these scenes in that period. Anybody know?
BTW isn't the game scene actually acid etched, not die rolled in? Or am I wrong about that, too? Savage/Stevens used both kinds of decorations on various guns, but this looks etched to me.
I have some boxed sets of combination guns but none stamped.
Definitely not used for aerial gunnery instruction. Initiation into that was done on skeet fields, where the doubles on stations 1,2,6,and 7 are impossible with a crumby single shot, and darned difficult with a pump. All photos and references I've seen over the years of GI's undergoing skeet/aerial gunnery training has been with autos, doubles, and occasionally pumps. We actually missed the best bet for finding out from my 92 year old uncle who passed away a month ago. He taught aerial gunnery somewhere in Texas from 1942-1944, before finally getting re-assigned to a B-29 squadron in the Pacific.
Best bet is it was a line throwing gun or a recreational loaner from out of a PX somewhere. And don't forget the existence of counterfeiting stamps.
All this debating over this gun is moot, unless someone here actually gets/got it. Without a hands on inspection we'll never know the key details that would give a clue as to it's provenance.
Fug,
Which bird scenes do your 219's have? The "pheasant" (at least I think it's a pheasant) or the duck scene? Is it on the sides or on the bottom of the receiver? I've seen Utica 220's both ways.
i got a "monitor" single shot shotgun with the flaming bomb stamp, i got the gun in the 1980's before the fake stamps came out. apparently a guard gun, now in bad condition.
Jericho: i got a m10 smith marked RHKP followed by a rack numnber on the backstrap and a colt police positive marked the same. never saw a M19 w" marked hong kong yet, could be a private security outfit like hang seng bank or other outfit.