Would someone post a picture of a 99 rs ? Thanks Tom

Someone should complicate the issue by explaining how the 99RS shown is an early one. 99RS rifles also came with the Redfield 70 receiver sight and the post-war R and RS rifles had slightly different stocks with longer and heavier forearms. The pre-war
R & RS rifles also had differing checkering patterns. Looking at all of the varients of the R & RS rifles is actually quite a study. (Good lookin' rifle, Steve!)

Thanks Steve I knew someone had posted pics of these before , but I couldn't find them . Tom

Later one with a Redfield and rear sight blank.

Those two are about as good as they come.

Did the RS come with a standardized sight slot filler, ie: flat topped or curved top? Was length of pull the same on all R/RS's, pre- and -post war?

The earlier RS's had a flip down Lyman rear sight. The later ones like mine and Joe's had blanks. Mine said Williams on it, Joe's didn't say anything. Guessing they used any blank they had on hand.

Does the "RS" mean Rifleman Series? My full-time gunsmith friend tells me that the RS series rifles were their most pricey and usually more accurate.

Haven't heard that one before. There seems to be little rhyme nor reason to the choice of model designations except for maybe the F and DL.

In looking at Murray I see he lists the SN range for the RS and some others up to 1,060,000. Does that mean there are tang safety RS rifles or that some lever safety receivers are stamped post mill??

I've seen more than just our two RS's with slot blanks in them. Seems like they used the Redfields and the slot blanks just before the move from Utica.

Somewhere I rear that Savage used hand selected barrels on the RS's but right now I can't remember where I read it. I know that R's seem to be more accurate, most likely do to the weight.

I've noticed that in Murray's also and have often wondered the same thing.

The Januaary 27,1958 wholesale and retail price list has the
R at $116.75 the RS at $129.95, the R was listed thru 1960
the RS was not listed after 1958!!

IIRC, that was stated in Mister Rifleman by T. Whelen. Nice looking rifles BTW. I really like the T and pre war RS.

I have owned a 99RS in .250-3000 exactly like the one pictured. My understanding was that Townsend Whelen had a role in designing the stocks on the RS. Can anyone confirm this?

Tom
If You are Considering a R'S or R, Stick with the Prewar, Most Accurate 99 Rifle Savage ever produced!
Steve

Thanks Steve I will keep that in mind . Tom

The RS models are heavier, but one of the better looking of
the 99s in my opinion.

okay, the pre-war R and RS are really not that heavy, the stock is not nearly as oversized as on the post-war R.

When writing to Callahan recently, I asked him point blank if the records after the war actually indicate that the model designation RS was ever actually applied to a rifle. He did not answer me.

The last RS that I have record of with a 30 1/2 is 378,8xx and the first I have record of with a Redfield 70LH is 386,xxx

I also realized the other day that I have a consecutive pair listed in my R/RS data both belonging to members here.

I have a pre-war R and there isn't anything heavy about it.

Post war R...............different story.

+1, the pre-war R's and RS's seem to weigh about the same as an EG. The pre-war 99T's feel heavier than either of those. Somewhere I've got a price list with weights, I think. I'll look tonight.

Rory
On 4 that i have in my Office This is what they weigh.
Steve
99T- 7 Lbs 11 Onces
99R-Prewar 7Lbs 13onces
99RS Prewar-with Sight and Swivels 8Lbs 1 Onces
99R Premil-Post war 8Lbs 8 onces

"My understanding was that Townsend Whelen had a role in designing the stocks on the RS. Can anyone confirm this?"

Yes, about 1930 a committee of the NRA approached the major rifle manufactures with a request for sporting rifles with better shaped stocks and peep sights. Whelen was a member of that committee. Winchester answered the committee's requests with their Model 54 NRA and that included the stock that was a full 13 5/8" long, a fuller more rounded forearm, and the Lyman #48 receiver sight. (Get one of those in .250 and you have a real treasure!) Remington responded with their Model 30 Express which received similar changes. And Savage introduced their Model 99R and RS following the same recommendations but with the Lyman #30 1/2 peep sight on the RS version. Those were the first American sporting rifles to be fitted with 13 5/8" stocks and the standard at that time, as seen on all other versions of the Savage 99 in the 1930s, was just 13". In Whelen's 1932 article about the .250 in the Savage 99RS, in the March issue of The American Rifleman of that year, he refers to the NRA committee only as "those of us." And he finishes his article with "I want to call attention to the fact that this is the only lever-action big-game rifle now being regularly manufactured which as a well shaped and proportioned modern stock, or that is equipped with a really good shooting gunsling and modern aperture rear sight, all of these details being included with the rifle as it is sold."
Toward the rear of that same magazine issue Whelen had a short notice that read, "The Winchester Repeating Arms Company announce that they are now prepared to furnish their Model 54 NRA Type rifle for the .250-3000 Savage cartridge. The rifle is well known to our members. It is a high grade bolt action rifle with Lyman No. 48 rear sight, excellent modern stock of correct dimensions, and has proper sling swivels for one-inch gunsling. It is a very exceptional arm in accuracy, reliability and strength. The .250-3000 cartridge is too well known to need description. It has proved to be one of our very finest cartridges for deer, black bear, coyotes, woodchucks, and other varmints. It is one of the best all around cartridges for the sportsman who confines his hunting to counties south of the Canadian line."
That's well said, I'd say...

Another article on the R/RS. We do have pictures of a Savage advertisement where they repeat Whelen's claim of the barrels on the RS being specially selected, but there's never been any information from Savage on what that meant.


http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri102partial.pdf

Rory
That author Mike Nesbitt on this article I Know.
I believe he is a Member on the 24Hour Here and He Resides on the west coast. I have dealt with him many a time on G.B. Great Guy. I did Not know he wrote an article.
Good Stuff.
Tnx for Sharing
Steve

11 ounces I'm thinking that it may be more the way it feels in your hands than what it weighs. I have never thought they were heavy.

At what serial # range do the post-war R's kick in???

Steve, Thanks for your kind words. And, let me admit, over the years I've written several stories about the Savage 99 and the Savage cartridges. Shoot sharp, Mike

Mike
Tnx For Writing such a Nice article
I remember long ago You Mentioned Something On Savage's to Me in an E-Mail.I Enjoy All Articles written On Savage's, Hope you have a Few new one's coming sometime again.
Steve

Ah, nice to get the author associated with the article. Very nice writeup!

fatjack34, the postwar 99R's seem to kick in at or after the 500,000 serial number mark when they moved to Chicopee Falls. Haven't seen any postwar style R's in the 400,000 range myself.

this leads to the next question... anyone ever get an RT, TR, etc gun lettered? I assume they letter as an R if any model information is even provided at all... it seems the EGs in the 440-450 range all letter as EGs. As I recall, Blair has a post war receiver with a pre-war R forearm that is believed to be factory.

The T/R, R/T guns sure seems to be Savage experimenting with a new version of the R... probably trying to cut down on checkering in order to lower work load thus cost thus increased profits.

Drew
I have One.Got it a Few Years Back from a Friend of Mine Here on the Forum-300Jimmy. I Heard that they were considered "LUNCH BOX SPECIALS" Meaning that some parts left the factory and assembled off premisses, and sold to supplement there income! I can not confirm that if it's true or not. Mine has the Hang Tag's that went with it. Have Not Letterd it yet.I would not think that they would letter but who knows?But worth a try, and i'll send off for mine soon.

Steve

Seems like we talked about having the R/Ts lettered a while back and decided that a letter wouldn't tell us much, but I can't remember.

My R/T is a 30-30 and since I don't believe the R was ever chambered in this caliber I doubt it would letter as an R.

Here's a photo from Savage Fest last year. My gun is at the top, Steve's below it.

Rod

You don't get models or what it's chambered in for war years, at least not that we've seen. Most you'll get is a ship date.

I think there are WAY too many of them to be lunch box specials... if that is what they are... someone was downright STEALING... its one thing if an employee takes a few parts that were not otherwise being used and makes a gun for himself but there are quite a few TR/ RTs out there. I have to believe they were constructed at the factory.

Interesting that the tag is marked EG. What does the butt stock resemble: is it like an early EG butt stock or an early R?

Rod, they did make 99Rs in 30-30 but they are very rare. They were made for the A.F Stoeger Co.

The hang tag has 2 E-G stamps on it, and the E-G stamp on the left looks like it also has a T stamped on it.

As to the lunch box specials, I think they've been called a lot of things just because they were never catalogued, and are very rare. Nobody knows what they are - I believe Roe Clark called them 99T's but I don't know that he had any documentation or hard info on it? And as far as I know, all the pieces are stamped with serial numbers and they sure seem to be finished product.

I'm currently leaning towards them being a second version of the 99T, but my opinions and guesses don't count for squat. Considering the 99R and 99EG were the only models continued after WWII, very possible that this was an intermediate 99R. If we keep watching, we'll very possible turn up some correspondence or catalog or NIB rifle that will solve the question.

Weather is a TR,RT,R-eg
I can see the receiver's lettering, but i can not see the rest of rifle lettering.
For as it was told Lunch Box Special's Or what ever the Case, Savage supposedly did not mak any during the War Year's and So that story that i heard that Guy's took them Home to put together and sell to supplement there income- would never letter.
We have to remember that the Late 30's and during the war years were pretty tuff times for a lot of folk out there.
So if there were parts lying around,as i am sure they had a lot of stuff lying around the factory,Receiver's,Barrel's,Wood etc, they could of left,as long as it probably did not have to do with there military contracts. After-all We Know of Maybe a 1/2-12 Dozen or So on this forum that exist, and how many more we don't know about.

It would Seem if Savage was going to do a Change over or Continuation of a Model with some changes there would of been a lot out there, which does not seem to be the case, except as Rory Said the continuation of the E.G. and R as we Know it
J.M.O.

Steve

Rory the Stamp on left has a T and Over Stamped with an R.

so if they are lunch box specials how did yours get a factory hang tag?

I now own an RT/TR whatever... and there are several here... and I can remember seeing a few sell over the years. Rare, maybe, but how is it that they are so consistent to forearm shape of a T and checkering of the EG? If guys were finishing these at home why would they not have just finished them as Ts, or Rs, or EGs?

May forever be a mystery?

Drew
At one time you were putting a chart together on 3 point checkering and 2 point Checkering on the R's Prewar.

Question,?
Did you ever get a coralation Between the R and RS Prewar as what had what? as Far as 2point or 3 Point Checkering?
In other words how many RS had Both, if any or How Many R's had both !
Steve

Thanks for that correction.

Savage may not have advertised during the war years, but it's sure that they continued to produce and sell some 99's based off of letters we've seen and the serial number gaps. And the folks working at Savage during the war years weren't having a hard time, they were being worked very hard and making quite good money producing 50 cals for aircraft as well as Thompson submachineguns - and probably other weapons (produced a bunch of Enfields, didn't they?). From documents and articles I've found they tripled or more their staff during WWII. I think the 99 production was probably done as extra pay for overtime work after the government contracts were met. Thus Savage couldn't guarantee any given output of 99's because the gov't contracts always came first, but I think they managed to produce several thousand a year.

Drew
I can not really answer that, That's the Way i got here, and That's the way 300Jimmy got it. The Mystery on it it has 2 1/2 different stampings on it.

The other Mystery With all the TR-Rt's EG-R-T is that they all had slightly different Checkering on the F.A. or a T or a different Stamp on the Front of the receiver. Again These Rifle's were never supposedly Catalog!

yeah, I was wondering if the front of the receivers were marked with anything. The other question would be... what is the barrel length on one in 300... if its 24" then it was an R or EG barrel but if it was 22" then it was obviously a T barrel...

few 300's I have seen were 24" as I recall, which makes them an R with a T forearm in my book.

Edit: Or possibly an EG with a T forearm

Same goes for Steve's 30-30, if it were a T, would be a 20" barrel. So......it's really an EG with a T forearm

Regardless of what they are............too bad they didn't actually put them into full scale production.

They are pretty cool guns and I bet they would have sold very well

Drew
At one time you were putting a chart together on 3 point checkering and 2 point Checkering on the R's Prewar.

Question,?
Did you ever get a coralation Between the R and RS Prewar as what had what? as Far as 2point or 3 Point Checkering?
In other words how many RS had Both, if any or How Many R's had both !
Steve

My R/T 30-30 has a 22" barrel.

Cool guns indeed. Mine would be one of the very last I would ever part with.

Rod

Here is one WAG the rifles were put together for a major catalog dealer very similar to the speigal rifles many thought were salesman samples for years. How do the speigal rifles letter?

Steve, I think the 3 point checkering was on both the R's and RS's up to a certain serial number range, where they switched to 2 point checkering. Not sure there's a hard and fast cutover from 3 to 2.

The Speigel rifles letter as being shipped to Speigel... sort of the give away.



Steve,

This is correct except I have not seen any overlap yet. Last three point checkered gun that I have in my records is 355,6XX and the first two point checkered rifle is 356,0xx, so somewhere in that 400 or so rifles is where the switch over would be...except as Rory alludes too... I would suspect some crossover just have not seen it. If you would send me the info you have on your pre-war Rs and RSs, it would greatly help my data.

Thanks

So why were they thought of as salesman samples for so long?

???? No one ever lettered one??

Had to have one that we prior to 371,200 to get an accurate letter. Many of them are later.

good point Rory!

If you ask JC he will say it is a R because Savage only produced EG's and R's at that time. There is no information on the subject in the logs so we will have to go on what we can see.

War time production was around 11,000 99's in 1941, 1942 and 1945. That is a pretty steady run. Production dropped way down to 2000-3000 range in 1943 and 1944. I think they might have stopped production early 1943 and started again late 1944 vs. just slowing production.

The rifles I have info on with early R forearms are all in the 1942 range. The R/T rifles are in the 1944-1945 range.

Savage only printed one catalog during the war years but I have price sheets from 1942, 1945 and 1946 all showing that they were selling EG's and R/RS'. I couldn't find a 1943 or 1944 price sheet to verify but I would guess the R was in there, also.

I think the R/T was either created using blank T forearms that were on hand or it was the original intended relacement design for the early R. I've seen no R's from 1946-1948 with a couple late 1949 then full production in 1950.

The R/T, or what ever you want to call it, was produced. There are too many to be lunch box rifles. I suggest we just accept them for what they are. This is what's great about the Forum. Without the combined input from the group they would still be just odd ball rifles that eveyone was afraid to own because they were not known to be "factory".

Rick, I was thinking of the "using blank T forearms that were on hand" line of thought also, but then started wondering why they had so many T forearms and not any R, G, H, etc. I don't think parts guns works, or we'd see more variation.

And good thought on the price lists, was looking last night and saw the 45/46 price lists and it didn't strike me about the R's. remember that the 45 price list would have come out somewhere between November, 1944 and January, 1945. Gotta have the prices before the year starts.

+ 1 on That Rick.

I.M.O.-We still don't exactly W.T.F. they are? or really know why they exist ,but they do and they come around from time to time, But they are sure Fun to Have and history to speculate and boot on and great information here on the in between years as to why or what of happened.

Rory, I would agree that having that many T forearm blanks left over from 1939 doesn't seem like the correct answer.

It is also interesting that we see 22" 30-30/.303 and 22" and 24" .300's on the R/T but mostly 24" .300's on the EG's.

Did the later Spiegel guns also have the 22" 30-30/303 Savage barrels?

At the time of the Spiegel (roll engraved) production the "standard" length for the .30-30/.303 was 22" on the EG's.

As to how common the different cartridges were in the 99R/T versus the 99EG during the war years -- We do see an occasional EG in 30-30 or 303 show up for the war years, but very seldom. And we see R/T's very rarely at all. The 300 EG's were probably the mainstay that was shipped to the sporting goods stores for stocking. The 99R/T's might have been more of the special order? Or as Drew said, might have been a special configuration available through some retailer.

I wonder why they went with the EG during the war years rather than the prewar 99R, the barrel band 99H, or even the 99G? I don't think the EG was probably the big seller for the several years before the war, was it? Or did the EG really take off in 1939-1941 after they started checkering on it?

During the war I'm sure finding cured and aged wood suitable for sporting gun stocks wasn't easy.

I'm not so sure that having extra T forearms in inventory from before the war isn't a logical answer or at least a possible or partial answer to the R/T.

And with Savage devoting so much of it production capacity to war time production wouldn't it only make sense for them to streamline their limited sporting production as much as possible? Offering one or two models makes perfect sense to me. And with the war time shortages building guns with the materials on hand doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

Just all speculation on my behalf and we will probably never know the real story, cause the guys that were making the decisions then are long gone.

Another Savage mystery lost to history.

You think there might be a few old cooters out there somewhere...maybe ....that worked there and would know! They would more than likely be pushing high 80-90, but somebody must remain! Wish I could talk to one of them!

Well.......if they were 25 in 1945......that would make them 91 today.

Thinking the guys running the company and making production decisions were probably a little older.

Just sayin'