I removed myself years ago from the habit of going to shows. But this year it's been different. A little more time and maybe a little more money to spend. Who knows. Nan and I went to Syracuse and met some of the nicest most polite people you could imagine. I was still somewhat surprised and what was being passed off as "honest" guns. I am thinking that either there's a large number of dishonest dealers out there some that are terribly uneducated. At any rate this gun has been in the works for several weeks. It's an "RS" and will letter as such. I have been wanting a pre-war "R" for years but just couldn't come up with one that I would spend the money on. Then this came along and I got pretty excited. A little investigating and I was able to comfirm that it is a true "RS" and not one that has had the Recfield receiver sight added.













[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/longbeardking/GEDC0821.jpg[/img]

Oh ya, that puppy is all RS.

Does the slot blank have Marbles or Stith stamped on it or is it just blank?
No worries, they've used all three from the RS's that I've seen.

Nice grab Steve, I'm guessing your gonna hunt it right?

No, Joe. No markings on the slot filler. And for hunting it. I have gotten so many rifles lately that buying one and hunting it just is't an option. I'm not against hunting it, but the line forms at the rear. There are several others that need to be hunted first.

Nice Job...my earlier post inquiring must have been redundant. I knew you would score.

Very nice rifle Steve - congratulations

Steven,

You didn't even mention if its a 300 or a 250???? Also, will you PM me with the details:serial, barrel length, "LBC" or whatever is stamped there, whatever is stamped on the front of the receiver, and the barrel address style number.

the only non factory thing that I see is the washers under the swivels... wonder what that was all about... and the lightly refinished wood.

A rare gem for sure and one you should be quite proud to own.

That's a real beauty Steve. I love those pre-war R models. Congratulations!

Rod

The wood is NOT refinished. That just had a snake oil wipe down.

Someone put a copper spacer under each stud. Why????????? Who knows? They've been there forever. EASILY removed, but they will stay right where they are.

It's a .300 and lately I haven't paid much attention to calibers. To be honest, I didn't even look until you asked.

Nice one LBK!

Perhaps the spacers were added so as to time the swivel holes perpendicular to the gun's center line?

Is that Snake Oil in the checkering or old finish?

Snake oil. The gun has no added finish or anything else other than the copper washers.

It was the rounded looking pads that made me think it was refinished but it may just be an optical illusion in the picture.

How about a serial range (obviously, feel free to XXX out as much as you are comfortable with)? I'd like to add it to my list of prewar Rs and RSs... i have nearly 100 listed already but not a lot of the late style RSs with the redfield tang sights.

t

Again, it's a joy to vicariously share in your pleasure, Steve. Another nice one!

cool,

the last RS that I have with the Lyman tang sight is 378,84x


And the first one I have with a Redfield is 386,61x

I don't have many listed with the Redfield... I doubt too many were built.

The only "bad news" is that it can not be lettered as JTC does not have records for guns over 372,100 until sometime after the war.

On a side note, I now have 90 records of prewar Rs and RSs.

Thanks, I was just thinking about lettering my RS at 393XXX but I couldn't remember what JC's cut off number was.

Steve...did you see any others that really stood out as in not run of the mill? On my original post a member guesstimated about 100 model 99's.

Lookin good LBK!!

There was a fair number os 99's there. Maybe a hundred ofr more. Lots and lots in the $500/700 range. Lots in the $1000+ range as well. A few in the thousands. Several engraved ones several lettered special order guns. To say there were dealers that didn't want to sell, I think, is a mistatement. All you had to do is pay the price. One dealer had a table with a sign that read "no reasonable offer refused". I didn't see many guns leave his taable but he was seen counting a wad of money out in the open. YOU figure it out. I was lugging a 30-40 sporterized Krag with what I considered a stupid price. AND I SOLD IT!!!!!!!!!!!! I also left counting a wad of money AND my "RS".

That IS a good trip!

Syracuse show sucks.

It's a small show and there usually aren't very many 99's there and what is there is mostly junk and way overpriced.

I wouldn't recommend any of you ever go through the trouble of making the trip.

Steven, that's a gorgeous rifle but that picture does make it look sanded.

Yours:



Mine:

I thought the same thing. The edges are not as crisp as others, BUT it is untouched. The rifle was the topic of discussion with several other collectors and NOT one thought it was sanded after it left the factory. Sometimes things are not as they appear to the eye through a picture. The wood is 100% the way it left the factory. At first. I thought Jed was being a little harsh on you. But, I am starting to agree with him. I don't think you'd know a great 99 if you tripped over it. Especially if you only had a picture to look at.

AH you damned kids arguing about your new toys !!!!!! I would go to Syracuse if it wasn't crowded!!! LBK,super rifle

There are secrets to beating the crowd!!!!!!

The gun is what it is, it might just be something that slipped thru QA at the factory with metal proud to the wood at the lever and over sanded pads despite being the premier model at the time (ignoring the K). Be a great hunting rifle, hope you enjoy it.

nice pickup LBK makes for a great week end,

norm

It would be interesting to see how many other ppl have 99s from this era with rounded cheeks and believe they are correct... I looked through pictures of my prewar Rs and RSs and all of mine have sharp cheeks.

Your Gun:



a prewar R is 250





A couple of prewar RSs:




a prewar R in 300



another prewar R in 300



Here is a slightly later TR/RT

[img]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/lohmaraj/RT%20TR%20%20EGT/pix097159325.jpg[/img]

These were just the ones that I had handy in my PB account... I also looked at 3 Ts, 2 Gs, and another R and all had really sharp cheeks.

And then there is the following BB 99H

I always figured this gun was lightly sanded but maybe its original... What say the experts? Steven? Jed?

Like Rory...I'm probably too stupid to recognize an original gun if it bit me in the arse.

[img]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/lohmaraj/303Hleft.jpg[/img]

YOU said it not me.

Curious,,,,,,,,,,,how many of yours will letter???

Stephen
Very Nice prewar RS.
Congrats, Looks Great.
Steve

Are you asking how many of my guns will letter?? I don't tend to letter guns that look to match factory standard grades but I do happen to have a letter on an RS in 300 and T in 303 b/c they had very nice wood (the RS is the bottom one in the picture of three) and I thought it was possible that they were special ordered.
A fair bit earlier I have a letter on an H in 3030 that came with the gun. Everything else I have lettered is pre 200,000


What is your opinion on my H that I posted, think its original?

What is the meaning of the Pied Piper? Do you want to see a copy of the letter? here it is:

Drew, I've seen R's and T's with flaws like gaps between the forearm and receiver, or poorly fitted buttplates. Original, just reduces value greatly. Never say never with Savage, so this flaw could a Monday morning hangover rifle. Just suprised to see it on an RS, and there's always the worry that a great stock guy refinished it.

yeah Rory, I am hoping that my H falls into that category also... looking to get some expert opinion so that I can know for sure.

1st off Not all will be sharp as a point.
The stocks were all hand finished and fitted.
No 2 would be alike,J.M.O.
I will never understand when a nice gun appears, some one always has to pick fly shiz out of nat's arse.

when looking through my letters from JTC I realized that I swapped two numbers... the last rifle he has a record for is 371,200

9 times out of 10 (or more) the fly shiz in question means a refinished rifle. If somebody can't discuss something on their guns in a friendly and courteous manner then maybe we need another forum called "Savage Pat Me On The Back And Lie To Me Forum".

I didn't say, "LBK, you're an idiot and you bought a refinished rifle.". I said the pads looked slightly sanded and the metal is proud to the wood. If this is original and there's many more examples of it, I'd like to learn about that so I don't pass up a peach in the future.

This group has never been shy about giving an honest assessment of someone's rifle when they post pictures... its a known fact that it will occur and we warn Newbies all the time to be fair warned their rifle will get picked apart.

I don't think anyone was rude or mean at least not until Steven thought it was necessary to tell Rory he did not think he could tell what an original rifle looked like even if he tripped over it.

Steven says all the time that he likes a person that is honest and will tell it like it is... I'm calling a spade a spade... the gun looks sanded... if its not, I'd like to learn how one tells the difference... I'd like to see some statistical proof also showing a number of similar rifles from the period that represent the difference. I've offered up one from a few years before that looks sanded and would like to know what others think and what criteria ppl use to distinguish the difference.

Like so many of our posts, you learn from asking these detailed questions and seeing examples of different rifles... this is the perfect opportunity to learn something...

apparently we think the same b/c you posted this will I was typing my response...

Rory
Nothing aimed at you. I'm just stating my own opinion.Period.

To me it's a nice Rifle. Period. For Stephen it's a Nice rifle.
I wish i'd look that good for a 60 plus year old rifle. Period.

This bunch doesn't discriminate. Established members are treated equally to newbies. GW

You nailed it GW! It's all in the reaction...if you dish it, you should expect it too. It's like that in any endeavor.

Problem arises when an opinion is voiced and then feelings get hurt and the next thing you know, you find yourself on the schitt list.

[bleep] amusing, really!

I've been on Chitt list for almost 25 years. According to the Honey-Do!

Nice gun LBK. it wont be long before, No one will post any pics of there 99s! Pretty much the ones that get posted now are ones that are for sale. Hell alot of guys that used to post on here dont even bother anymore, Gee i wonder why???????

I would venture to say it deals with attitudes and personalities and may I dare say cliques....

Don't ya know you can't post a gun here in less than 98% , this is a collectors forum. And if you're gonna sell it, better not ask for more than half it's value or the cronies here will flip out. I won't ever post a gun pic here anymore, even of my good ones.

Someone should start a thread about what NOT to do on this forum, then have Rick make it a sticky.

So the pads were iffy enough that Steven asked half a dozen collectors about it, but I'm a jerk for commenting on it.

I've probably posted more pics of guns here for open and frank discussion than anybody. I've never had problems with somebody pointing things out or discussing any issues, whether it was a rat or a queen.

The one thing drilled into me when I got here was to expect honest discussions of any gun posted.

Guess I missed the change. I'll just withhold comments in the future, maybe discuss things via PM with a few folks.

I went to the range today and fired off my model 1912 and then sighted in my Browning 10 ga for turkey season. I'm thinking everyone else in this thread should go destroy some paper soon to, spring fever should be over!

Rory
I never said ya was a jerk, nor drew, I just stated my opinion.
I personally think the Gun is very Nice, and looked at all the Photo's, Personally My opinion, the way the photo shows led to comments,,all other on the other side look right, optical allusion or what ever ya want to call it.

To me the rifle is right as rain.
I just get sick and tired when a person post a gun that there proud of in what they obtained,and the nit pick fly shiz comes along.
For Me, and Only the way i personally feel, i get tired of flea shiz picking on person's gun, weather is reworked, brought back to life or even slightly retouched ,or original.

The rifle he obtain, is not dicked with, or bubbed' and is a very nice specimen of a rifle.

I don't pat back's for brownie points, just stating my opinion,just like you or any-one else is entailed to there.
But i looked at all the photo's and all look right,,so throw the last one out because of angle is my opinion.



P.S.
Stephen sorry if i stirred your post the wrong way.
Personally as i said before Nice rifle, congrats and enjoy.
Steve

Do NOT voice an opinion and expect there to be intelligent discussion about it without it eventually degrading into name calling.

Do NOT post pictures of your trophy guns and expect everybody to love them as much as you do.

Do NOT panic and overreact if you get a little sand in your vagina, it is easily washed out with a little soap and water.

Cracks me up.....................laughin.

99guy, good post sir!!

Actually, I'm more partial to this quote:




At least one of us here has got it right.

Not so.

Joe's a drunkard through and through, He's a friend though he's true blue, He's a soak so they say, he tried to get to Heaven but he went the other way, so drink chugalug chugalug chugalug....

Anyway, nice rifle LBK!

Have you ever been down to an Irishman's shanty,
where liquor is scarce and maggots are plenty,
They eat with their fingers,
and fight with their knives,
To keep the damn maggots from taking their live's.

Nice Pre-R. The one thing that would make it look better..... is if was in my safe.

Clear to see that you pack of over critical wolves have managed once again to alienate a member or members.

It has been incredible to see the amount of disdain here.

I feel like there is a theme.

I wish you could learn to behave.

I watch and notice many of the regulars are no longer posting, at least publically.

I am sure that of this group the private message system is hot.

From what I observed, many of the posters love to give honest criticism/observations but when it pertains to their situation they do not do well. That is a 2 way street.

In regard to what began this incredible posting, I personally would like to own this rifle. It doesn't matter to me that it has had some tasteful work done to it. It is nice and a rifle to be hunted.

Fireballredux loves you all! Misfits and the like! Good Day.

You haven't even been around long enough to know who the regulars were that aren't around anymore.

..was thinking the same thing! I been around for about 3-4 years and i haven't a farking clue who the real regulars are myself!

Some people read more into various posts than others. The "Savage Collectors" are like a family, disfunctional, but a family. Some are thin skinned, some are thick skinned, and everybody has a "drunkel",(drunk uncle for the obviously challenged) but these folks somehow always survive. They get their panties in a wad, but always get over it. Nobody here hasn't heard anything on a post they probably havent heard at the local pub, or from a close acquaintence. Hell, my friends are ruder to my face than most posts here are in print. Guess what, I still am here carrying on.

This "Savage Collectors" thread might be sometimes brutal, but its entertaining, and learn along the way.

Just my .02 cents
Jerry

I just wish some of the experts around here would tell me if my H has been sanded or not and how they can tell which guns left the factory with rounded cheeks and which did not... I've never known any in this group to not be willing to share info before... I don't understand why we are so locked up now...

....SANDVAGE as opposed to SAVAGE would be my guess Drew. It's been said before and I must agree...dys-[bleep]-functional...at it's very finest!

Speaking for myself, I am not deterred by the posts that some find troublesome. I will say I like coming here and enjoy the group. That is not my primary motivation for coming here. I come here to learn. I come to this site more than any other site because I learn more here than any other site. I even learned something from this particular thread. One thing I will say about learning is that it can be painful. There is a gunsmith I use and aside from doing great work, I like him because I learn from him. He has a lot of knowledge of vintage firearms and on top of that, he has a great eye. A really great eye - that comes from decades of experience. Let me give you an example of learning equals pain. I went out to his place to pick up a couple rifles. I usually bring a couple along just to show off. He has a great appreciation of vintage stuff and he enjoys seeing some of the odd/special stuff I have. I brought one piece out (a non-Savage lever rifle) and he oohed and ahhed over the high percentage original finish, the multiple special order features, the rarity and so on. Then (yes, there is a shoe dropping here) he said, a really great gun except for those extra holes in the metal.... Me: "there are no extra holes in th metal." And, I am in fact correct, there were no extra holes in the gun. But then he clarified, "there used to be extra holes in this gun." And of course he was kind enough to show me where they had been. CRAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!! That day was not a good day for me. But, I did learn. Sometimes I wish I never would have brought that gun out there, but then again, that chances that I would make the same mistake twice. This experience reminds me a lot of this forum. When I handed my gunsmith that gun I didn't say, "see if you can find anything wrong with it." But, I did hand it to him and he's going to look it over and comment. I went back and looked over the comments made about LBK's rifle. I thought they were quite diplomatic and posed in the context of trying to gain a better understanding of what each person was seeing. I have posted photos of many rifles I have, some titled to the effect, "Boltman shows one off" and believe me, it is not without some trepidation. I'm not worried anyone is going to be mean but I do worry someone will see something I didn't. And if they do, it's not going to make my day. I'd still rather swallow my lumps and keep on learning.

Does the holy gun still reside at your place boltman?

Do I have to say?

I really hate it when people remind me that the gun I drooled over, bought on sight and rushed to share has a flaw or modification that I totally missed due to over exuberance.
However .... it has happened to me more than once. The worst was a Savage I proudly showed my Dad years back .... took him all of 10 seconds to point out barrel markings later than rifle.
Lesson learned ... I haven't made that mistake again.
BillR

Lessons worth learning usually cost. You just want to keep the tuition down. I've had two costly Savage lessons so far. One of them still is here to taunt.

Acceptance is the answer to all of our problems today....

The first, "big dollar" (for me at the time) Winchester I bought was a M1886 SRC in .45/90 (gunshow in Houston, TX). My Dad's '86 in .33 WCF is the gun that started it all for me when I was a very young boy. Anyway, when I started collecting (in my late teens) I wanted to add 86's to my collection. The time came where I had added a few rifles but the SRC was a holy grail for me - and one in a .45/90 really got my blood going. I ended up selling two nice Winchesters at the show (one was a M1895 .405 takedown) just to get the cash to buy this '86 SRC. I got it and later discovered that two tap holes had been welded up for a Lyman receiver sight. Sometimes guns can be very forgiving and the cost of tuition on this incident turned out to be zero. I got my money back out of it - with full disclosure of the holes!
By the way, back to LBK's gun, I will say that we are looking at pictures here and pictures are not always completely accurate. I noted that Rory's very first post that poses the question about LBK's wood possibly having been sanded, acknowledges this:

"gorgeous rifle but that picture does make it look sanded."

Mr. LongBeardKing,

I go to some shows but I get easily discouraged by the lines and the such. I would be interested to hear your secrets to beating the crowd. Is it "knowing" somebody at the door or on the inside? Is it being "that guy" that most are jealous of and have ill feelings toward because they have an "in"?

Please share. I am interested. If PM is more comfortable than please feel free to use that medium Mr. LongBeardKing.

Thank You!

Fireballredux

Hes turkey hunting be gone till next week!

Mr. SaddleRing,

Thank you.

The best way I know of to beat the crowd and actually get at the best deals is to purchase a table and essentially not use it. That allows you to be there for the all important set-up where the dealers scoop up the best deals before the public ever sees them. And, it is less crowded.

Thank you for your advice Mr. Boltman. I appreciate your time.

fireballredux

I havent been here for a long time and just now saw this on the 'Cuse show. Strange, no one mentioned the near mint 99 EG in 22 HP that was at the Cuse show. Smoker gun with a price to match. 7 or 8,000 as I recall. Did any one else see it and what did you think ?

Must have been Ralphs rifle!! been talked about here a bunch of times!! its a bit over priced!!!

This thread reminds me of something. Up until my Dad died last December, every time I visited him I would always bring at least a few of my most recent firearm acquisitions to show him. He always enjoyed this. My Dad was a perfectionist by nature and this flowed through to about everything he did. As he examined the pieces I would show him, most all were antique or vintage firearms and virtually none were new in the box condition. As he examined each gun his fingers would quickly move to whatever sort of defect the gun might have - like a small nick in the wood, rub mark in the blue etc. and he would always say, "too bad it has this." I was always quite annoyed by this as 1) it was painfully obvious to me that the gun would be better without the defect, and 2) often except for a small defect, the gun was a really fine specimen and one to be proud of. Like a lot of us, my Dad knew what perfect was and if something was short of perfection, it got noticed. It's just a natural orientation to the world. I think all of us agree that even if LBK's gun is a notch short of perfect, that doesn't mean it's not a very nice gun and he should be proud to own it.

Someone thought it was worth the money as it has sold.

I remember long ago reading that the guns to cherish are not always the ones that are perfect; it may be that they were owned by someone who just wasn't interested in them, or they may have been woefully inaccurate. While I can appreciate a mint gun, I like to think that those who owned them before me enjoyed and cared for them.

If you make it through life without any scars on your body or your soul, have you really lived? Same with a firearm.

That's a good perspective to have Dave. For some rifles, it is the use they have received that is their biggest appeal. I have a an old Winchester M1894 .32 spl. that no doubt was owned by a cowboy or someone who at least used it plenty. It looks like the butt probably stirred more than a couple of campfires. Yet it remains a clean and honest gun which clearly has some fascinating stories it could tell. I would say I wished it could talk but I suppose if it did start talking it would really freak me out

Jeff,
Good to see a couple of very thoughtful posts. Maybe peace and tranquility will start breaking out all over the place!
I thought about you at the OGCA display show last weekend. There was a Ross pistol. Gene B and I talked about the fact that you would probably appreciate the display. Maybe he will get on here and be able to recall more detail about it.
john

John -

Gene sent me a message about the Ross pistol. I think I recall seeing a picture of it in the Ross Rifle Story. When I get home, I'll take another look. Gene said it was on display only and not for sale. Also not for sale were two prototype Burgess pistols!

Since I made my last post, this thread triggered another memory for me. My Dad's oldest brother was a gun collector. At deer camp one year he had a Winchester M54 that he had recently purchased and he wanted to show off. I looked it over and commented that it had been rebarreled with a M70 barrel and the model number on the barrel had been restamped. He was in a foul mood the entire deer season