Anyone know about the evolution of savage steel and how they upgraded over the years? When did they switch to Chromoly?

Thanks

Interesting question that I doubt you will get much of an answer to.

I should take some shavings and take them to the one of the labs at work... if only I wouldn't get fired...

You should put out a donation request Drew, I'm sure everyone would chip in for the metallurgy knowledge..., and if you got caught there'd probably be enough keep you in beans and potatoes for a month or more.

we could ship you some wild boar

Has anyone ever contacted Savage to see if anybody there knows of old engineering drawings/spec sheets that may be gathering dust in an attic someplace? I guess the trick would be in getting past the "front desk" and talking to an old geezer in manufacturing engineering who's too stubborn to retire. Heck, an old guy like that might remember conversations on this subject with old geezers when he was a young geezer just starting out. That would be the obvious first step in researching the subject.

I remember my mentor when I was a young tool room supervisor starting out fresh out of college in 1974. He had started with the company in 1933, and was a font of knowledge concerning past techniques, and kept many of us youngsters from trying to re-invent the wheel.

Early catalogs refer to Savage 1895's and 1899's using military grade steel - same as used in US military rifles. So that would be what, the same as used by the Krag-Jorgensen?

My best guess would be 4140. It's very machinable, stable, yet heat treatable.

I dug around a little and I think coming up with a real answer would be difficult. I'm sure JTC would have some history. I don't think 4140 was actually around until after the turn of the century. Although metals very similar did exist. Thos flow lines are from forging.

Found this in an ASTM proceedings book from 1920:

La Metallurgie, March, 1896, quotes from experiments at the Creusot Works of Schneider et Cie in France, which showed that 0.20 to 0.30 per cent of molybdenum in 0.20-per-cent to 3.0-per-cent chromium armor-plate steels rendered them harder and less brittle. This was probably the first instance of the use of the chrome-molybdenum combination for the production of tougher steels.

Seems that by 1920 they had alloys very similar to the 41xx series.

Interesting. Krags were made of low carbon steel and carburized (case hardened). The case hardening on them is tough and deep- a file will glance off the surface. I don't think even the earliest 1899 receivers were like that, were they?

I don't think "...using military grade steel..." ties it down to a model or even a country.

Would the barrel and receivers be made of the same material? (this is something I know little about)

There was a time period when the early receivers had flow(?) marks in them. The receivers took/held the blue different. What caused that? Some of the Winchester were like this, also.

I think the receivers were forged ,and the barrels were rolled giving them a bit different characteristic !!

I don't know LBK, when did 4140 come into being? Military grade steel at the turn of the century was low carbon everywhere. Pre-WWI Mausers were low carbon steel alloys as were the early 1903 Springfields. Things changed in a hurry after WWI, I'm speaking of 1900-ish times. Barrel steel was a different story. The inception of smokeless powders necessitated a change from the low carbon steel employed previously. Ours was called "Ordnance Steel", Winchester brought out their own barrel alloy and called it Nickel Steel. I don't have a clue what Savage was up to.

I wonder if one of these would answer all the questions. If so, it would be fun at savage fest..... http://www.equipcoservices.com/rentals/xrf_rentals/xrf_analyzer_alloy_mode.html I sent a RFQ to see what one would cost for a weekend.

Gary,

I added some information to my original post. They had some pretty exotic mixtures by the turn of the century. Without some serious digging I would think 4140 might not be the answer. As I said, it was just a guess. Between 1900 and 1920???

Hey Gary that sounds like sumpthin don't it? Wowser.

Guys,
I have buddy in the scrap business who has a metal analyzer. I will be seeing him tomorrow night after work. He said he would try it out on the guns. I am taking a 1920 bolt rifle and an early teens 1899 there. I will have him check barrels and receivers separately. Below is what he emailed me.

It is a portable hand held gun that will read without damaging the item and give a breakdown of elements of whatever you have The only issue is if there is a veneer or coating on it, it may give an incorrect result due to the chemistry of the coating. When checking metals that are not clean or potentially coated, we grind the surface to get an accurate reading.

Of course, I won't let him grind on my guns....but I can let you know results later in the week.

Or would you guys prefer two different era 1899/99 rifles. Say teens and late thirties? I can go from 1899 to 1939. I have nothing in the 20's.

That would be very cool!!! I certainly would like to know. If possible, take as wide a range of samples that you can.

This topic comes up every once in a while, and we always get some good educated guesses but never anything concrete. Knowing the alloy content would also provide a clue as to what heat treating steps were taken too (although knowing the hardness too would necessary for that).

Will this do? I don't want to impose too much on my buddy.

1899, 1916, 1939 levers and a 20/26 from 1927.

About as big a range as I can cover. I slowly unloaded all the 40-50's stuff as I found my tastes ran older... in guns, NOT women.

I called my retired metallurgist friend to get his take, and he is clueless as to what was going on in the firearms industry back then. (He can quote chapter and verse on steel alloys used in building submarines though. He developed alloys for the Navy- very "hush hush" work.) He thinks 4140 was a product of the auto industry originally, and he also thought perhaps it came about in Ford's labs when they were designing the Model T.

That should do the trick! (By levers, you mean lever-action rifles, no? Not the levers themselves. I'm pretty certain that the levers were simple low carbon, judging from how soft they are once you get through the case hardened skins, and the fact that they take case coloring so well.)

This is getting exciting! (I know, I gotta get a life!)

3 levers and a bolt gun.
Only going to check barrels and receivers.

That's great info right there. Can't wait. Way to go DJ!

Great! What a divers group we have.

The junkyard i go to has one also, the analyze in a few seconds, i think on the barrels they could check the muzzle which should be in the white,but im sure it will show traces of copper!! the bluing on the receivers may be a issue, might show up as ferrous oxide.

You could just take the butt stock off, should find some bare metal inside the tangs.

Use one with a pistol grip stock and you could ship it off to be copied while the metal testing is going on.

I am planning on taking gray rats......that might help too.

I would think if theres not a lot of bluing there would be no problem,those things are amazing ,they told me it cost $70,000 for the one they have.

Nuclear analyzers. Positive Material Identification (PMI). Your number sounds about right for an older model Don. I've heard somewhat lower numbers for newer versions but you're still talking tens of thousands.

This will be interesting to see what the results are.

Just to kick this down the road a little further - does anyone know if the Savage 99 barrels were autofrettaged?

I would doubt it!! i think it would be cost prohibitive.

good thread this .

norm

Didn't one of the published "tour of the factory" articles describe the barrels as being drilled? From the 40's or 50's I think. I don't have an electronic copy. I'll check and see if I have a hardcopy.

Well, here is what his machine showed.
The rifles:
Savage 1899A Ser #10.1xx -DOM 1899
Savage 1899TD Ser #1763xx-DOM 1916S
Savage 99RS Ser #3896xx-DOM 1939
Savage 20/26 Ser #125xx-DOM 1927?

Checked receiver and barrel on each rifle in approximately the same place. Some had nice blue, some gray rats.

Basically his machine showed the same in all 8 readings taken.
The top number was an alloy number-4472 and 98.5 Fe and the rest Mn.(Iron and manganese)

I am not a metal guy, so this is all Greek to me. Hopefully someone can make sense of all this.....

You know you got it bad, when we are discussing Savage Metallurgy!

Awesome!

dave

Somebody's got to be way smarter than me. (Which in and of itself wouldn't be difficult) But, nobody I am connected to in this machine shop has ever heard of 4472. I went to my oldest edition of Machinery's Handbook (20th edition) and visited the list of standard steels. It starts out at AISI No. 1015 and ends up with 94B30. NOWHERE on this list is 4472. Even wikipedia shows nothing. To answer this, I believe serious (maybe even destructive) testing would need to be done. Of course it's very possible one of you might have better resources available to come up with an answer.

I'll run this past my metallurgist friend tonight.

My friend did say he was not sure how his machine would work on a blued item. He also mentioned that completely bare metal is way more accurate.

His other testing machine did not show an alloy type, just metal content. Both machines read the same on metal content.

I could not find 4472 or any other alloys in that range on any google search either.

I am thinking, too, that one would have to test an unrestorable receiver to get a more definitive answer.

The old bluing is nothing more than rust isn't it? If so it shouldn't be an issue. Maybe.

I have a receiver that is available ,first I will check in Grande Prairie ,to bsee if anyone has a machine , if not I will ship it anywhere for free.

norm --if I remember right its from about 1903.

I talked to my metallurgy mentor last night, and he asked what the carbon content of the alloy was. He said iron and manganese couldn't stand alone as a simple steel alloy- there has to be a bit of carbon in the mix too. That said, he informed me that manganese is used to create alloys that are highly wear resistant (Which sounds good for a lever gun receiver, no?) Other elements do a better job of adding toughness to an alloy, but manganese provides sufficiency in that regard too. He's going to dig out his old alloy recipe books and see if he can decipher the alloy number that has everyone stumped. Details to follow- "film at eleven."

The "4" means that there is nickel in the mix. The "general" consensus here is that 4140 would be very close to hitting the nail on the head. Even though the first REAL mention of 4140 was Henry Ford using it in differentials and axles. Metal is a mix of either raw materials or "scrap" thrown in a pot and melted down. Even today we get tool steel that isn't "perfect". You could be milling away and all of a sudden hit a "hard" spot in normally machinable steel and ruin a cutter. Sort of like planing a board and hitting a nail with the planer blade. I'd be very curious to see the end results. I'll bet that a group of receivers from one lot would come up differently that that of a group from a different point in time.

Makes sense. It's becoming clear in my mind that Savage used much more exotic alloys than what our government was using at the time for service rifles. I guess they didn't want to upstage the government via their advertising when they alluded to using government quality steel in their guns.

For years Ford axles were a favorite source of round stock for advanced "shade tree machinists". I remember reading accounts of early barrel makers using the stuff because it was darned good steel and could be bought for scrap prices at any junk yard in the world. The Model T was a very simple device while at the same time employing a lot of (what was then) exotic steel alloys. The Ford engineers were driven to seek out the very best alloy for each given application. It was a large part of the reason behind the success of the car- they didn't wear out/break like their competition did. Those alloys contributed to the reliability of the car- they took a lot of abuse and "kept on ticking".

We've got a crowbar on the farm that was made from a Model T axle. It's about 4 ft long and you can guarantee any nail you get hooked on is coming out. We call it "Trusty".

Back to our regular programming...

Dale

well, this has certainly been an interesting thread. I'm glad I brought it up.

I have really been busy, moving and a bunch of other stuff. A while back Norm sent me a piece of receiver to experiment on. I should get to it now. If I heat it up cherry red and dump it in oil and it gets too hard to file, it is high carbon. I strongly suspect it is 4140 or something close to that. It is too difficult to get the characteristics that the 99 has with other steels. It is absolutely not a low carbon steel once it is in the 1940's. I have worked on some guns below 70,000 and they seem the same. In the 20's who knows? Japanese rifles in the early 30's are 4140. The French MAS 1936 also appears to be 4140. Now if I can find that piece of receiver.....