s.n.3772xx, 1937, 22", .303

Looks like the Lyman tang sight and Redhead butt pad were added somewhere along the line.
My question is, what type of sights fit the D&T? And is it possibly factory/salesman sample?
Front appears to be 9/16" center to center and rear 7/8".
Briefly talked with Grogel at Savage Fest but have forgotten what he said.

Most salesman samples had the scroll engraveing on the recivers I think. Iv seen one d&t like this but cant rember what mount, I just checked ,y "T" it uses one of the early rare redfield mounts, also looked at the 3 mounts im selling they are not for it! mad Dog would know and Rory! also Lightfoot!

Rick, the Spiegel Specials were D&T'd for a Belden Mull scope mount in that or a similar configuration. I don't have a photo of the holes for a Spiegel. Maybe Loggah will shed some light on this. David

That appears to be the same hole spacing as the Spiegel guns. I also don't recall seeing one drilled without the scrolling.

Are "salesman samples" and "Spiegel guns" one in the same?

Basically the spiegel special and what we had been calling the salesman samples are same rifle. he holes are for a Belding and Mull scope mount,and they did drill some rifles in that serial number range without the engraving. I have 1 or 2 in that range with the holes and no engraving.

Interesting. Thanks Don.

Would these "samples";
- go to other retailers besides Spiegel?
- have mounts & scope installed?

No idea,I know that the question was asked to Roe Clark what these rifles were and he said he "THOUGHT" they were salesman samples. We have since Found out they were made for Spiegels .

I have seen several, "Spiegal Specials" without the roll stamping. All were EG's.

Would the factory ledgers comment on checking, D&T, sling swivels, purchaser, etc. for these specials???

Meanwhile, I did find some previous threads where "Spiegel" guns were discussed here.

I found the old thread on the B&M mount where it was noted that the mount sold for more than the price of the rifle. That might be why we've never seen one?

Despite not being roll stamped, were not the saleman samples wood checkered?

Were not the front hole drilled under the front sight?

Was wrong once before, but I think the butt pad and the holes in the metal are the work of the same man.

Bubba.

Some of the rifles that had these four extra tap holes (presumably for the B&M mount) were first model EG's (without checkering). They were likely not, "Salesman's samples" nor were they Speigel specials. Nonetheless I think it is safe to say the extra holes were Savage.

Would not argue that point to hard or too long.

The fact that I have not seen one before tonight means nothing, as I am still a student in this game...

Good to have you back Steve. (Boltman).

Stick around...

I think i also ran across an earlier Spiegel catalog picture showing an uncheckered and unengraved EG... I'll see if I can't find it again when I get home. I know I've shown a couple EG's with that d&t to Rick, maybe he saved serial numbers to compare to engraved Spiegels?

Found it. On the gunboards.com website, Gary probably posted it here also but I don't remember. 1938 Spiegel catalog, not checkered and not engraved. BUT.. the scope shown in the picture is mounted on a base ahead of the rear sight.

So.. dunno.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?220217-Speigel-Gun-question

Rory,I have a different ad ,maybe i can get Cheryl to take a picture of it,David did when he was here.

I'd like to see a picture of the scope mount in the holes behind the rear sight dovetail. Maybe I've already seen it... but if so, I'd like to see it again

And here's another question: who has or has seen a rifle with tap holes forward of the rear sight as in the ad Rory shows? Or better yet, anyone seen the whole set-up as the ad shows?

The Redhead butt pad on my EG looks like the one in the add.
Do you think??
I removed the butt pad, stock (hollowed) has been cut, no s.n., new holes for butt pad. I'd guess user added.

I don't think we've ever seen a factory installed recoil pad on a Savage And by, "Savage" I am not referring post-mil models ("Savage snobbery appears a life-long affliction - just as Jed). Particularly for early models, this seems odd. Back then factories would do most anything a customer wanted and a recoil pad wouldn't be an unusual request. The same phenomenon has puzzled me when it comes to the special order short rifles. Winchester and Marlin had call to produce quite a few. Surely someone must have tried to special order a Savage short rifle or carbine? I would be intrigued to know how the factory responded to such a request Who knows, maybe that's why some customers chose a different manufacturer - they gave them what they wanted and Savage wouldn't. I do know that with Winchester, they progressively discouraged special orders (i.e. changes in configuration) over time.

Here is a blow-up of the 99 section. Note the rear hole configuration.

Grogel should be able to give us the lowdown on this since he did a lot of work to get that scope and mounting blocks corralled.

This subject is a real bag of worms! Rifles with the roll engraving were originally called Salesman's Samples but we have since found too many for them to be just "samples". Then the Spiegel ads were found by Gary which showed the roll engraving and scope mount holes. Since most of these rifles were produced after late 1937 when Savage stopped logging info there is no way to see who they were shipped to or if there were specials on them.

Within the subject of Salesman's/Spiegel we find rifle with/without roll engraving, with/without checkering, only the butt stock checkered, with/without sling studs (in different locations) and D&T'd/only D&T'd (most/all?) for mounts that we have not been able to verify.

The earliest data I have is on a 1934 "R" that was only D&T'd that I saw in Tulsa. When I say D&T'd in connection with this subject I will always be referring to the rear two holes on either side of the cocking indicator and two holes under the rear sight. We have good reason to think the holes were for the B&M mount (early 30's) but I don't think anyone has found a mount to verify that. The later Spiegel ads show a Mossberg scope could be purchased but Gary has been unable to find Mossberg blocks that were made to fit the holes. I know of no Spiegel rifle that has the front block holes out farther on the barrel and not under the rear sight. Gary and I have found Lyman blocks that do work with the holes. I mounted a Lyman 438 target scope on one of my rifles and had it at Savage Fest. Right/wrong...the holes are usable for target blocks installation. But, to date I don't think a rifle has turned up with anything mounted using the holes or showing indication of having had anything mounted. Before anything was known about these rifles they were passed over because of the two extra holes in the receiver (most never saw the two under the rear sight).

Most roll engraved rifles are EG's but there is one "T" known. Earlier rifle that are only D&T'd in my data include a "R" and three "H's". Note that these are all solid frame rifles.

So as you can see it takes more than just stating Spiegel or Special to describe a rifle in the family.

PS... this is not a closed subject so all comments and questions are good. We have more to learn on this subject.

Good post Rick.

Here's Rick's rifle from the Fest.

Well, we have one more data point for what it's worth.
99EG 3772xx/'37, 22", .303, D&T
Thanks for the summary.

Very cool - first I've ever seen of those holes in use.