I picked up a "Spiegel" yesterday. ser# 377043 checkered butt stock,uncheckered forearm. has a sling I think maybe original ? is there anyway to ID a sling ?? it has a Lyman tang sight but the post is missing.I could use a post if anyone has parts ?













plab

Well that looks to be in great shape! Nice addition. Is the receiver worn on the bottom from carrying, or is that just from the flash bulb? 300 we presume?

it's from wear Jeff but it's a good honest gun.
I would have never bought this rifle if it were not for this forum
I would have just thought just another "bubba" gun.
that's what the dealer thought

plab

Nice gun! The sling studs are a replacement, but no big deal there.

Just got mine a while back. The more I look at it, the more I like it.

hey Rory what should the studs look like
? you got a photo ? and do you know anything about the slings? are the marked in anyway ?

plab

Well crap... mine are wearing the same ones. I was wrong, they're right.

Was thinking it was sling eyes on the Spiegels for some reason.

Sorry about that.

Another:




My Spiegel on the bottom:

hey that's great. looking at the photo,the sling is wrong. from the past threads I've read, I guess you can't letter these



thanks

Yeah, almost all of them are too high to get anything but a ship date off of. I think 371,200 is the cutoff serial number.

I'm pretty certain they are Savage #7's.

LBK savage #7's how do you find this kind of information ?

plab

Just by the pics I'd say they were #7's as well, usually found on the rimfires from the same time period.

If I told you I'd have to kill you.

There not no.7's,the Spiegel specials the stud and screw are 1 piece. They are like the old Stevens sling studs used on the Stevens high power rifles.

My 425's didn't have sling swivels?

Sure they were factory?

The studs in the Spiegel rifles are the same as the ones in the pre-was RS rifles. My stevens model 435 i have has studs.

Plab, nice looking rifle. Congrats on your purchase (or however you "picked it up").

Can anyone tell me the origin of "Spiegel" as the designation for this type of non-cataloged Model 99?

Thanks.

I dunno. Here's my Spiegel and my 2 pre-war RS's. I know I'm old and stupid, but they just don't look the same to me.

Oh this is gonna get good.

Nice looking rifle. Congratulations are in order.

here's a picture of the swivels





plab

hey jaack I did buy it.. audetts down in Winthrop

plab

We'd (I'd) like to have a picture with a little more clarity. Looks like a "different" fastener to me.

Plab Nice Rifle
STEVE

Rifles with the roll engraving can be found in several variations. The most common fall in two groups.

The early version has only the checkered butt stock and sling loops like Plab's rifle (photo above). The loop is a post head on a screw with a loop through it. The front one is used to attach the forearm. They do not swivel just screw in and out.

The later version has butt and forearm checkered and swivel loops. The loop is in a post type head like the other but with a slotted flathead screw through the center that attaches the unit to the rifle. The loop swivels around the screw. The front unit is attached just behind the forearm screw (not used to attach the forearm to the brl).

It is very possible that not all of these roll engraved rifles were sold through Spiegel but since they are pictured in the Spiegel catalog a couple of times the name was adopted (vs. Salesmans samples which we now know was not correct).

Most (all?) will be found to have the odd ball D&T holes for the B&M(?) mount.

Serial number 384,xxx has these same exact sling studs. Took a look last night.

I have 3 different rifles all in the Spiegel s/n range and they all have the stud with the sling loop without the screw,basically not #7's.Boltman had a few Spiegel rifles and they had the solid studs ,and a few other ones i have seen and not bought had the studs with sling loop. I guess what i'm saying is "most" of the rifles i have seen had the stud with sling loop without the seperate screw.

The ones with the swivel loops might be on later rifles. What I have in my data noted of that style are 394xxx and higher. Is that a # 7? I noticed that it is the same as the top rifle in LBK photo but not the same as the packaged #7 that he posted. The package is a Chicopee product of later design.

There might be a middle group of rifles with early loops and checkered forearms. Do all of your Spiegels have the front loop holding the forearm on?

Loggah ,that's what those are like a solid stud with just the loop

plab

Rick,
FWIW mine is 386396, checkered forearm and stock, no screw slots in sling loops.

Mine is 3925xx and as shown in the picture, it does have flat head screws with the driver slot. relatively close in numbers. I think mine is a 1939 gun.

Must be one of the last ones made !! mine are around 370,xxx something.

John...and its used to hold the forearm on?

Don, the highest Spiegel type I have in my data is in the 396xxx range.

Is it the same roll stamp they used on the Savage model 430's?

Exactly or was there two different roll stamps?

You decide..............

Affirmative. It holds forearm on.

Rick,

Thanks for the info on the Spiegels. I thought they might be associated with the old Spiegel Co., but I didn't know for sure.

Hard to tell from the small pics but I'm thinking they just used the same one, both were flat sided receivers.

Those are the fastest pics I could come up with. Maybe "control +" would blow them up a tad, but the resolution might go to hell. I went to google images and found them. You might find some better ones there than I did.

They look to be an exact match.

Thanks Rory. Funny thing though here at work only one image will open. The 430 image is blocked.

It's from gunauction.com, so they must be blocking those evil gun sites.

Yep, exact match, thanks Rory.

Looking at mine, I almost think they had a tracing template they used to just dig into the steel rather than freehand engraving. Anybody know if that's likely or even possible?

To hard to tell on my 430 20 ga, the engraving is starting to really lose any sharp edges at all.

Disagree, I see just minor difference's, but enough that it can't be the same stamp. I also found another picture of a 430 that look's like it is yet another stamp. Savage may have had several stamps with all being slightly different.

My recollection from reading is they were "roll engraved". I guess I assumed that was a big press that just impressed the receiver sides vs engraving by hand. From experience I know there are distinct differences in the depth they are impressed. Many seem to be "scratched" rather than hand engraved. JMHO

With the naked eye it almost looks "scratched" out, but could very well be roll stamped. Definitely faster to do the roll stamping, I would think.

On the ones I have the studs are not #7's also these came with
checked forarm and plan buttstock that is the least style I have seen.

Does anyone have one in 22HP.?????????????????????

Is this a trick question? I'm nobody, but I've only heard of .300 Sav and .303 Sav. There's probably 250-3000 and "maybe" 22 Hi-power. If anyone has one YOU do!!!!!!!!!!!!

Either an ad or a catalog I saw at Loggah's said they were made in 300, 303, 30-30 and 250-3000. Don, let us know on this. Has anyone heard from him lately? He and Cheryl may be buried in the snow.

Im hanging around once in a while, Maple sugaring season ,been putting buckets out,getting ready to hit the hay !!!David it was an add that was framed,i think you took a picture of it.

I thought someone on here had one in 30-30?

Ad says they were sold in 250-3000, 303, 300 and 30-30.

Don, I thought I photographed it but couldn't find the photo. It may have got lost when my laptop died last August. Everything that was going in the book had been backed up but some of my photos that weren't going in the book hadn't been backed up. I just remembered it might still be on the camera. How deep's the snow up there? David

I have data on 36 roll engraved rifles:

300 = 21 ea
30-30 = 4
303 = 9
250 = 2

35 are EG's and 1 T.
5 of the 36 don't have swivels/loops

If value is influenced by rarity, these 36 guns should be worth a FORTUNE!!!! How many variations in your data bank show up LESS than 36 examples?

I can't really say about other variation. The Roll Engraved rifles were originally labeled as Salesman's Samples. As it became clear that there were too many in circulation to be salesmen's samples I started collecting data from Forum members and at gun shows.

I think I have a pretty good idea of when the Roll Engraved (this would include the ones sold by Spiegel...not sure they were all sold by Spiegel), 99-H's, 1960-E, Spain rifles and RT's were produced and how the calibers fall out. Drew has a pretty good list of R/RS's, also. But it is hard to tell what part of the total the samplings cover.

Other variations have just been added when available (and I don't save data on every 300 EG I run across ) so can't always tell commonality by units collected.

You missed your calling. You should have been a politician!!!!!

... no way. I hate public speaking and memory is not good enough to remember all those bull crap lines they use.

All you have to do is have some guys write up a bunch of lies for you and read the teleprompter.

You forgot be a so called minority !!!!

I had a 30-30 and 303.

Gonna take a guess here and say the same time the 430's were being roll stamped?

BTW, if you were a politician I could say that EG's should not be included as a 99 because I felt it was against my religious beliefs and you would all have to get rid of them.

snicker, snicker....

Since we can have almost anything in Wy you could send all the EG's to me.