All:

I just did a chamber cast of my 1895 today. The pics below show the results.

Next to a 30-30.

Next to a 303 Savage

30-30 on left. 303 Savage on right.

Just before I punched out the cast.




Freshly removed cast from my 1895

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...

Savage, never say never.


*Note: to avoid wrinkles in a Cerrosafe cast, pre-heat the barrel with a hair dryer. You don't have to get it hot, just nice and warm.

Hello Gary,

I used MidwayUSA's metal. They say it is better than Cerrosafe but I have limited experience with both. Maybe same, same. Worked well enough for me to get the info I was pursuing.

Thanks for the tip though. I warmed it, but not quite enough.

...but it is still correct-for-1895 stamped as a 303 barrel, so obviously re-chambered?

How about your comparison of other 1895's distance to sight dovetail, is yours the same 5.5", or shorter?

I love mysteries like this!!

It is 5.5 inches like all others. The barrel stamps on 1895s had "303" stamped within with the address. The caliber stamp wasn't separate like 99% of other guns are.

The tell-tale extra length of neck in your chamber is too long for either cartridge (correct?). It's just the shoulder that has been cut forward, so 30-30 brass will chamber. It still headspaces correctly on the rim. Maybe this why SAAMI chamber dimensions got started..., just sayin'

JeffG,

No on the neck.

The 303 is way to fat on the bottom. It doesn't make it quite halfway. Lol.

I already knew the rifle was 30-30.

I will show range targets, and documentation in the future.

Maybe some on here have already seen it.

How cool would it be to kill a deer with the first Savage ever chambered in a Win caliber. Then again, I heard 30-30 is no longer adequate for deer. I better go after an elk.

Hey, if you can shoot a Tiger with a HP, that 95 should be good for a T-Rex, Joe.

No gunsmith marking as to who rechambered it?

Or was it sent back to Savage Arms for this? But you would think they of all people would remark the barrel to 30-30.

You can't re-chamber a .303 to .30-30. The body of the .303 is bigger and the reamer would mostly churn against air instead of cut steel. To do so would require a fair amount of barrel setback, and since Jeff said the sight dovetail remains at the original prescribed distance, that didn't happen.

Another scenario would be someone bought, begged, borrowed, or stole an unchambered .303 barrel blank from Savage/Marlin and fitted/chambered it as a .30-30 on his (or a customer's) M1895, or else it indeed was done at the factory.

The truth of this rifle is forever lost in the turn of calendar pages, but it is a fun mystery to build our own stories on..., it never too late for alternative facts!

No T-Rex. Just want to connect with a nice deer with it. I feel pretty confident that I can do just that. Besides, all the T-Rex's were killed off in Michigan around the turn of the century.

Come on down to Maryland's Jurassic State Game Lands if you want to try it out, Jeff. Located right inside the D.C. Beltway.

People say with Savage "never say never." But in your case so much time and potential number of owners have passed since the rifle was built that I'd say your perspective should be "with years, never say never." There's no accounting for what's happened to this thing over the last century. But as Gary said about ducks...

Letter it.

A rebarreled rifle?

A relined barrel ?? does the Barrel have the JM stamp ?

plab

Plab,

Yes, it has the JM stamp. No, it is not relined.

Take care,

RAS

There's reamer mark's at the base of the cast.What does a fired case look like?

Looks like a 303 Improved.

Si!

Is there enough meat in a 95 barrel to accomodate a 1/2+" diameter sleeve from breech to muzzle? (Large as case head and then some.)

Evidence of liner on muzzle?

Just an observation FWIW and a question.

I just looked at 1895 & 1899 muzzles I have.
These are flat with no bevel on inner diameter.
Some later 1899's are flat with bezel on inner diameter.
Later yet are crowned.
Did the bevel ID occur through out 1895 & 1899 production? Or do we think there is/was a clean cutoff when the bevel began?

I tried blowing up that picture on PB and it is messed up now. I will get better pics. PB sucks.

As far as the question, I have seen them both ways. Some are and some are not. Who knows.

Probably the biggest remaining non-factory possibility is whether the chamber was relined or not. You don't need to reline the entire barrel, if you want to keep the bore the same and just change the chambering it's possible to get just the chamber relined. Probably couldn't tell without removing the barrel?

I found a guy a couple years ago that would reline a 32 Win converted barrel chamber back to 32-40, for example.

Or.. get a letter and hope it lays this to rest by saying the ledger shows it was made in 30WCF or 30SAV.

In all probability, the barrel got a dimple in the flat crown at some point in time. It happens more frequently than you might think. I repaired an octagon barrel with a flat crown about 2 years ago. Although I did it on a lathe, the old timers did it with a brass ball and some compound.

As far as the chamber being relined, that has never happened to this rifle. Jeff can check it by cleaning the extractor cut with a toothpick and some alcohol and giving it a good visual with a stong light and a magnifying glass.

Let's give this a try.

You boys should never say never say never say never, ever. Is it jealousy that drives you guys attitude, or what ??

Now the big question I have: when was the last 1895 assembled by Marlin ? And what date did Savage fire up their plant and start producing rifles ? Did Marlin just pitch the extra receivers and barrels they had out the window, or did they send them along to Savage ??

I believe they sent alot of the old parts along. I've seen and owned low serial numbered 1899's made in the 10.000+ with 1895 furniture and barrels although the bolts were switched out to 1899 bolts but they were doing that pre-10.000 anyways. IIRC I think I saw a couple 1895 barrels on low 11.000 1899's as well but definitely on the 10,000's.

Not jealous, more curious. A letter from the historian stating it left as a 30-30 would be a first for an 1895 and would up the worth of the gun quite a bit. Just having a hard time believing one left in 30-30. It almost seems like from the start of this thread that were trying to talk ourselves into believing one left the factory in this caliber but I tend to believe facts over fiction. No malice towards the gun, and I think it would be awesome to know that one left in a different caliber other than 303 but now we've taken it to another level than what we've learned over a number of years which is that 1895's were only made in 303 Sav. I've got photo copies of factory ledgers of 1895's and all are in the same original caliber.

Actually after having another look at a couple ledger pages they don't even list the caliber an 1895 was chambered in because they were all chambered in the same caliber.

Also, an 1895 with a higher serial number above 5000 is going to be an earlier rifle made in 1896, most of the 1897 1895's were a lower serial number from 3000-4999. They started around 5000 and went up and then rolled back to around 3000 somewhere in the mid to high 7000's.

John,

I will bring the gun with me to San Antonio in May. You will see it, and the (top secret) to go with it. Sam wants to see it to. Besides and more importantly, I think we have a few days left of turkey season, and then pigs if they are still around.

You will feel the spirits of Arthur Savage, John Marlin and Oliver Winchester go through your bones when you hold it. Prepare yourself! Lol.

Back to the scheduled program..

Mad dog --- thanks for the info, this is what I was hoping to find out more about. Although I have a few Savages, I'm not a collector. Just an old gunsmith that loves old guns.

Jeff ---- bring PLENTY of ammo !!!!! These damn pigs !!! Counted thirty in one group. Was pig hunting this evening and did have 4 turkeys under me. One had an 8" beard. Maybe you can put some wear on that 30-30 :):):)

No jealousy, no anger.. but there are multiple explanations for this rather than the Savage factory chambering an 1895 in a new, competing and unknown cartridge (at that time the 30WCF was no more popular than the 303 Savage since they were both brand new) without bothering to stamp the barrel.

Never say never, but at the same time really odd things take more proof.

Same here.
Looking for reason(s) to potentially include it or exclude it with regard to a particular model, variation, etc. And hopefully learn a little along the way.

Who would answer it?

John,

I know just the rifle for duty. My 99G in 30-30. Along with the 1895. Though, maybe I should bring hand grenades and claymores!

Good grief, that is a friggin invasion of hogs! Lol

Email incoming on the 1895 and hunting.

Effie @ Savage Arms.

As for the start and stop dates... the latest production dates I've seen so far for the 1895's has been in the 1st half of 1897. The 1st 1899, per JTC, was 11/1898.

There were brl's used on 1899's with the Repeating Arms address but the 2nd line has the Oct. 3, `99 date. Appears someone just used the wrong roll die.

The "Cal. 30" in the address and "SAV 30" on the brl top was not used till 1900. The lowest serial I've heard of is 133xx with most in the 16xxx range.

A letter is finite till then it is a guess. As with Plab's 22" 1895's lettering as "Light" and "Lightest". 100 plus years for that info to come out.

I suppose you could re-chamber it to .303 and make her correct anywayz.

Seriously, is there anything else you "know" about this rifle? Where it's been? Where'd you get it? Did you knowingly buy a Model 1895 30-30?

Thanks for the post and the comments. Learned a thing 'er two.

My guess is; Since Savage didn't put caliber markings in front of the receiver,and since it had to have the only barrel address (.303) available at that time to be a legitimate Savage , and since anyone would soon find out and wonder why a .303 Savage would not chamber in a .303 marked gun and would soon say - it must be - - let's try a 30-30, (the only other popular modern cartridge of the day). They either made one up in secret, not telling the boss, who was only interested in the barrel address anyway, and never checked the chamber; Or it was made up as a test rifle , to see how it would handle the 30-30 in case they decided to make a new 1895 in that caliber. Called an 189_.

It could be an R&D 1895 to compare the 30-30 function with the 303Sav!!

Wouldn't that be just as cool as a creek on a hot summer day!

What does Marlin have for records of their work for Savage, anything?

"What does Marlin have for records of their work for Savage, anything?"

Nothing. The only records are the Savage logs of what was received from Marlin and when shipped.

Thanks to mad dog and Rick, I'm learning some things on the 1895. Since RAS's serial # is just over 7000, does anyone know what year it was manufactured ?

I will get to hold this rifle in my hands in about a month !! I can hardly wait.

Would need a letter to have a firm date, there are oddballs. But in general I'd stick with Joe's ballpark dates.

Then there is the story recounted by Mike Nesbitt in the May 1985 issue of Handloader Magazine (reprinted in the Jay Kimmel Book, Savage and Stevens Arms) where "Cougar Pete", a government hunter in the Northwest, liked the .303 Savage cartridge so well he had a Winchester Model 94 in
.30-30 rechambered for the .303 Savage. As he did not have the barrel set back, the rifle was "dual chambered", but fired cases would come out with a double shoulder. Imagine picking that '94 up in an auction on GB...

Oldgunsmith, it was probably produced in 1896. My 1895's were all produced that year. Their serial numbers are: 47xx, 51xx, 62XX and 78xx. But you need a letter. We know the serial numbers weren't produced in order. For example, there was a recent post that stated Marlin started at 5000, went into the 7 or 8000's and then started producing lower numbers. My SRC serial # 47xx was received at Savage's N.Y. offices Dec 26, 1896, The others were received as follows: #51xx Feb 22, 1896; #62xx Apr 25, 1896 #78xx Aug 7, 1896. But you need a letter because with Savage "never say never". David

Thanks David for the additional info. I'm also interested in how this gun letters.

Winchester brought out the 30-30 cartridge in their 1894,but the barrels wouldn't hold up to it. So, they improved their steel and in 1895 started producing the 1894 in the 30-30 round.

With Winchester being successful with many different models chambered in many different rounds. Wouldn't it have been likely that Savage would have chambered a few in 30-30 to be used to compare to the 303, since the 303 was his first cartridge design.

Why wouldn't they just buy a Winchester in 30-30 to compare it to? $15 for an 1895 rifle (or less) was probably cheaper than what Marlin would have charged them.

I'm doubting that Arthur was very eager to use or even consider Winchester cartridges after Winchester and others charged him with corruption in the 1896 New York military trials and he almost came to blows with a Winchester rep - and then lost the contract. But, just my opinion and worth what ya paid me for it.

Come on really, thats 5 days away from 1897, were just picking flysheet out of pepper now. I own 4786 1895B accepted April 27th 1897.

Like Rory said my numbers are ballpark, there are exceptions, lots of them. For example 4389 1895 military Dec 11, 1896, 4405 Apr 15 1897.

The discussion is concerning a rifle in 6000 to 7000 range. I was throwing out some figures to suggest there is a good chance the rifle was produced in 1896 since we're not sure we can get letters at this point. My SRC's serial number is 11 lower than your 1895 octagon barrel rifle and the acceptance dates are four months apart further confirming that they were not shipped entirely consecutively. Unfortunately we have to work with the limited data we have. David

All:

Sorry not to close the loop on this. Here are the details that I have on this rifle. Well most of it.

Accepted in July 1896 and eventually shipped out in March 1898. Yes, almost two years after it was accepted at factory. (The person or place that the rifle went to will remain anonymous)

The documentation specifically states the oddness that there is no caliber designation for this rifle, and that it is the only 1895 rifle in the ledger that doesn't have a 303 designation. There is also an odd "WP" in the ledger. Again, no other rifle has that feature in the documentation. No reference at all to what WP stands for.

This info came from Savage and/or a Savage historian. Others here have seen all of this info.

**Break**

The rifle is in 30-30 Win, and shoots good with my mild loads.

In my opinion, there are two things that are true.

1. I own the first Savage rifle factory chambered in a Win caliber. It is a one of a kind.

2. This rifle will hopefully be taking a deer this coming season, and preferably in Texas.

Another piece of info to add to the pile.

Cheers....

"WP" = Winchester Prototype??

Hope you make it down here for deer season. One of these Texas deer should be proud to be shot by your one-of-a-kind rifle. How does it feel to have the only 1895 chambered in 30-30 ??

you know with all the mystery about that rifle you must be loosing sleep .. so why don't you sell it to me and be done with it


Plab

I sure hope the "Others" take the time to chime in 'cause if true, goes against all conventional wisdom regarding 1895's.

Howdy John. Yes, we can look at a hunt this fall. I will email you the paperwork on this gun today, and bring the gun with me. Maybe sooner, and I can help eradicate some of those big boars running around your place. Bill will be shooting it on 11 May. He comes into town on the 9th. He is a big Winchester guy so it is only fitting. Will call you when he gets here.

To answer your question, pretty ok with me. I figure I can stop collecting Winchesters and Savages at this point.

I will be framing my copy of the letter for your 30-30, it will hang on the wall in my reloading room. As for Bill shooting the rifle, you two will have a blast, and make some new memories. Wanted to send some photos of the hogs, but photobucket won't co-operate tonight. I killed 29 last month, and haven't made a dent in them. Don't think we are gonna run out before you can get here. BTW, things seem kinda dead here on the forum since you scored on that rifle. Still shakin' my head that you go to a gun show, and just happen upon the only 30-30 to leave the Savage factory in 1896. Damn, it don't get no better .......... good for you !!! Ya'll score a turkey today ??