Looking at a Savage 99 22hp takedown in excellent condition. The rifle is in the 123000 range. The rifle has a slot milled in the bottom of the barrel near the front sight. The bottom of the lever has two holes drilled and tapped. Does any one know what the purpose of the slot and holes?

Thanks,

Carl

New one on me.

Barrel groove is probably for some kind of crossbar for sling attachment. Never seen holes on the lever before.

Thinking of some type of homemade contraption for who knows what. You would not attach a sling to the lever. Or would you?

Maybe someone set up the lever with a Chuck Connors Rifeman's trigger! In all honesty I have no clue.

Wonder if it was something a handicapped person used. I have had people with disabilities come to me, they come up with some of the weirdest ideas, but they work for them. Never know.

The rifle is 98% plus other than the slot and threaded holes. I am hardly a 99 expert but I guess any collector value is lost. I almost bought it today for $1000 because of the remarkable condition of the piece. It locks up tight and the bore looks perfect. I think it is a 1899H because it has a straight stock and a 20" barrel. Any idea of what the gun is worth?

It was almost worth $1000 today.

My first impression is that the groove in the barrel looks like it's the same blue as the rest of the barrel and the holes in the lever look like the same color as the rest of the lever (which should be case hardened, which from that picture it does appear to be to me - I think a true 98% gun would have bright enough case colors that they would show up even in a poor picture) so I think it was re-blued, but from just those two pictures it's really hard to tell.

Yeah, I was wondering if it had been reblued myself. It may be the picture but the tint on the barrel looks like a hot salts blue job and the lever should be color case hardened. Can you post better pictures?

The more that I think about it, it would be unlikely that a rifle that old would be in original near mint condition and be for sale at a gun show. It is a beautiful piece however. I might give it a second look tomorrow. I was hoping that the modifications were factory options.

Put up some better pictures before you make any decision to buy. It's really hard sizing up a firearm with the pics you provided.

I was thinking reblued lever and barrel also, but the small pics are hard to tell.

Winchester messed with making the model 94 a semi auto by putting a pivot on the front of the barrel. It had a flapper (paddle) with a hole in it for the bullet to pass through, that went over the muzzle. When it fired the muzzle blast pushed the flapper forward moving a rod back to a toggle that pulled the lever open, then I think springs returned it. But he had to cut away most of the lever, the rod attached to the very front of the lever, in front of the trigger finger. I'm pretty sure that is not what you have there, but, that's what it reminded me of, Joe.

Wow! Joe, that is something I didn't know about the history of the 94. I guess that I'm a "babe in the woods" when it comes to collectable firearms and their history.

Carl

I owned a 99 one time that had the same kinda notch in the barrel! If I rember right it was a nice 22HP, I wondered about it, I fig maybe the owner had a bad hand or arm and rested the notch on a rest, limb ect to steady the barrel to fire it! I tried it and it wouldnt try to slide off like a round barrel would! the one I owned wasnt reblued at the time I had it!

I have every American Rifleman from 1948 to date. I read it there, and it's the only piece of Winchester history I know. Every time I buy a 99 I have to ask these guys if it's right or not. If I live long enough and pay attention, I may learn something, Joe.

I just walked in the door with my new to me 99. I know that I paid too much and the gun is not original, but It was love at first sight. I own 4 other 99s and none compare with the action smoothness and crisp trigger pull of this one. It may have been reblued but you can tell that the lever is case hardened. Can anyone help me identify when it was made?

I have one sn 1223xx that was made in March 1912, so yours was almost certainly made in 1912 too.

Thanks, Jaaack. Now I need to find some ammo and a peep sight.

Wood has been redone/replaced. Kinda like that forearm. If the lever has good case left on it I'm not for sure it's a reblue?

Don't think yur nuts for bringing it home.

Yep, I get 1912 also. Do you hand load? I have some brass reformed from 30-30 brass. Where are you located? There are several of us that shoot the HP in MD. My 1899H was made in 1912 also, Joe.

hp

Joe I would love to shoot with ya'll up in MD. I live in Escatawpa, Ms about 40 miles west of Mobile so it would be quite a haul. Just looking online, so far I have not found any of the 5.6×52mmR ammo in stock. I hate to add another caliber to my reloading repertoire, but it looks like I might have to.
I will send you a PM about buying some brass.

Thanks,

Carl

Im a big fan of the 22HP, if your going to shoot one you realy should reload, not to hard, 25-35 Brass is your friend, Buffalo Arms has 55 grain bullets! Speer 70 grain bullets are out there, but hard to find! wishing you Good Luck with your 22HP!

Hey Carl, I go the long way forming HP brass. I run 30-30 brass through a 250 Savage die, then a 25-35 die and then an HP die. It goes smooth and we have zero lost cases. Gary (gnoahhh) has done a lot of HP reloading and has said that the European brass, like the S&B, tends to be off a little and has short case life. I think others have said it does shoot well the first time. Wait and see what they say. The main reason I use 30-30 is it's all over the place free. Gary uses 25-35 brass and likes it. I think I have some formed brass down stairs, if I do I'll send you 20 on the house. I might have 20 69 Gr bullets down there too. All you'll need is some 3031 and primers, Joe.

See, John likes the 25-35 brass too, and he types faster than me, Joe.

Anyone .224 bullets in their reloads?

I've heard of people using 224's, but I think you need a special die to squeeze it down a little extra. The problem will still be using short bullets. I'm sure the range of 224's is near limitless, Joe.

Do a search on this site. The care and feeding of the .22HP has been hashed out every which way from next Wednesday. Get a set of dies, some brass (.25-35 or Joe's made from .30-30) some .228 bullets (Buffalo Arms is your best bet), and a can of 3031 and call me in the morning. Loading for the HP requires no special alchemy and very little voodoo. I think old Ken Waters did the cartridge a slight disservice way back when he did a Pet Load article on it, and since then everybody thought it was a freekoid to load for when it really isn't any different than any other cartridge- standard precepts apply.

Check the gun's headspace. That'll give you an inkling as to how well your brass will hold up under repeated loadings. (Shoulda done that anyway with an antique you plan on shooting.) Keep your loads light regardless, no need to try to make it perform like a .22-250.

I have, Pick the right bullets and they'll shoot fine. The 60gr Nosler Partition worked quite well with the few samples I did, got to play with it more.

If you think about it, a .228" bullet going down a bore that is .220" wide with .007" deep rifling has to squeeze .008" of copper backwards from 90% of the bullet surface - because it can't be squeezed outwards. Take a .224" copper jacketed bullet down that same .220" bore and that whopping .003" of free space in the riffling is going to be filled up immediately with copper squeezed in from the jacket because it's .004" oversized for 90% of the bullet surface. At 45,000-50,000 psi, copper is going to flow and flow fast. (bore and rifling sizes taken from Townsend Whelen's book from 1918).

Others disagree with me. They don't think that .004" from the oversized jacket will fill the grooves fast enough to prevent throat erosion. I don't plan on shooting thousands of rounds to prove either of us wrong.

I don't think it takes thousands of rounds to do that, Rory. Why take any chance at all with barrel steel from 100 years ago - last I heard Savage isn't making .22HP TD barrels anymore. It's also another reason I switched to shooting cast bullets as much as possible in the .22HP's. Lead bullets won't wear a barrel a teeny fraction of what gilding metal does - witness the ridiculously long life of .22 RF barrels.

Because I really, really like Nosler Partitions and finding .228 bullets that stabilize really well isn't easy or cheap.

I wonder how consistent old time bullet manufacturing was around 1912? Were they accurate down to .003" consistently? Anybody know?

Not as consistent as what we enjoy today. Speaking in terms of external dimensions they were pretty consistent. The biggest issues were what their bullets looked like on the inside- jacket thickness inconsistency both from bullet to bullet and within the same bullet, voids in the lead cores, etc. made accuracy something that those ancients would have envied us for, due to stability in flight (or instability in flight) issues.. Add to that the nearly universal use of cupro-nickel back then for jacket material which fouled barrels worse than gilding metal does, quickly throwing gilt-edged accuracy into the crapper. All that said, some pretty impressive scores were turned in regardless, and some pretty impressive animals were killed. (Target shooting records were nearly all set with soft lead bullets back then- scores which stood well into the "modern" era.)

No matter how consistent bullets are, it's all for nought if chamber, throat, leade, groove, and bore dimensions vary all over the map- and they did back then. Add to that sad state of affairs relatively inconsistent bullets and you see the challenge faced by our forebears. Today, we who mess with these old guns are well advised to monitor closely the dimensions I mentioned and strive to match our projectiles as closely as possible to them. Of particular importance is bullet fit to the throat- that is what determines straight entry into the rifling and minimizes gas cutting which impinges on accuracy too as well as throat erosion. Groove dimensions are almost secondary to throat dimensions in the that respect. (Doubly, no triply, important when seeking accuracy without leading when using cast bullets.)

Does all this matter to the guy who just wants to make his .22HP go bang a couple times a year? Nope. Does it matter to someone who takes the science of all this seriously? Yep.

In my .22HP tubes, throat diameters run from .2285 to .230, with groove diameters running from .227 to .229. With scenarios like that when a .224 bullet rattles around before being snugged into the rifling and bumping up to fill the grooves (if it indeed it truly does), it is always a source of amazement to me that .224's shoot as well as they do, and make me wonder just how how much better said rifles would perform with an optimally sized bullet.

One may ask "Why did Savage use a bastard size .22 bullet?" Back then .228 was the standard size for all .22 centerfires, starting with the .22-10-45 in the 1880's and continuing through the .22W.C.F. that was fairly popular well into the 20th century. (But note also that .22 CF's were not what you would call common.) It was the .22RF's that had the small bore sizes, and not all of them either. It wasn't until the 1920's when .22 centerfire experimentation started to take hold that the bullet diameter shrunk. That was due largely to the use of .22LR barrels as sources for centerfire conversions, and that stuck as industry standards were adopted when .22 CF's became factory offerings. (Even then the .22RF standard of .222-.223 held sway briefly- witness the first factory .22 Hornets- but quickly segued into our familiar .224.) .22 centerfire experimentation/popularity didn't gain traction until the 1920's and later mainly because bullet technology didn't exist before then to make them a viable high velocity proposition, due in no small part to the shift from cupro-nickel jackets to gilding metal.

On the subject of reloading for the 22hp. have had good success with 63 grain Sierra semi pointed bullets behind H4895. Groups about an inch at 100 yards
Steve

Steve, is that the Sierra SI1370 bullets? I ordered a box yesterday from Natchez along with my dies. BTW, Natchez has the SI1370 bullets and RCBS HP dies on sale.

Carl

Carl, That is the same one. My load is 25.0 grains H4895. Not real fast but accurate. I have a 24" barrel. Sorry for the late response.
Steve