Are modern jacketed bullets safe to use in a 1920 vintage Savage 99?
I know some older guns had barrels made with softer steel that modern jacketed bullets will ruin.
Seems to me that by 1920 the steel should have been up to snuff for jacketed bullets. To look at this another way around would be saying that Savage was out of step with the times if they weren't using "smokeless steel" in their barrels following WWI.
Not saying anything, just asking a stupid question I guess, as it does say "high speed steel" on the barrel.
I have a Marlin 25-20 of that era that is ruined from using modern jacketed bullets, and have read some 22's made prior to about 1935 or so, should not use high velocity ammo introduced about 1936.
Anyway, I found this old rifle and want to use it, and don't want to abuse it, and so asked.
Hey, there's no such thing as a stupid question unless its asked by "yours truly." Marlin upgraded the steel in their barrels in the late-1800s/early-1900s for use with then new smokeless powder loads. They sold the old barrels until they were used up with the caveat that they were to be used with black powder loads. The upgraded barrels of that period are marked "smokeless steel." I never heard of any sort of transition period barrels with Savage, though the older receivers are not recommended for use with modern high power cartridges such as the 308 series of rounds. I don't know when the metallurgy of the 99 made the improvement but I'm sure there are those on this forum who do.
Savage designed the 303 for smokeless powder, I regularly shoot my pre WWI Savages. I would not worry about copper jackets. A lot of guys shoot cast, but I think that is for the fun and enjoyment they get from the whole process, and the economics. I'm sure you'll get more feed back, Joe.
Savage rifles are fine with copper jacketed bullets, that's what they were designed for. Just load them to velocities in use at the time and don't try to hot rod them. Hornady likes to list hot loads in their manual, for example.
Hey, there's no such thing as a stupid question unless its asked by "yours truly." Marlin upgraded the steel in their barrels in the late-1800s/early-1900s for use with then new smokeless powder loads. They sold the old barrels until they were used up with the caveat that they were to be used with black powder loads. The upgraded barrels of that period are marked "smokeless steel." I never heard of any sort of transition period barrels with Savage, though the older receivers are not recommended for use with modern high power cartridges such as the 308 series of rounds. I don't know when the metallurgy of the 99 made the improvement but I'm sure there are those on this forum who do.
Marlin I have serial # dates to 1904 as best I can tell. The first number is hard to tell if it is a 3 (1904) or an 8, dates unknown. Best I can tell with a magnifying glass is a 3.
only markings on the barrel are, 25-20 M next to the receiver, Marlin Fire-Arms Co. New Haven CT. and the pat.d dates. Tang stamped Marlin 94.
Nothing about the steel.
I would think a 1904 firearm would have been made for smokeless powder.
Marlin is the only company I know that did what I described. Of course it didn't stop people from using the older barrels for smokeless loads once they left the factory, but it may explain why some from that period ended up with bad barrels.
I hope those Savage 1895's made by Marlin had smokeless barrels. I've shot a lot of jacketed bullets in my Round barrel 1895 over the last 50 years. David
I hope those Savage 1895's made by Marlin had smokeless barrels. I've shot a lot of jacketed bullets in my Round barrel 1895 over the last 50 years. David
I never thought about that connection. Back then Marlin was still owned by Marlin and Savage by Savage. Let's just assume that the forward thinking Arthur specified the latest in barrel steel technology when he contracted out to Marlin to build those 1895s.
Savage specified that the Savage barrels would be equivalent to the 30 US Gov't barrels (30-40 Krag), and they even sent samples in to be tested.
Define "smokeless loads". Mild (light, as in powderpuff) smokeless loads and cast/swaged lead bullets will allow for an infinitely long barrel life in soft steel barrels. You will do more damage with sloppy cleaning methods. It was the actions of some of the guns themselves made before the intro of .22 hi vel ammo that were suspect, not the barrels. A soft steel .22 barrel will last a lifetime too with HV ammo, no big deal. I'll bet a heckuva lot of low pressure cf barrels of the teens-20's were wrecked from chlorate primers and sloppy cleaning more so than jacketed bullets, although they would certainly hasten things along.
Shooting mostly cast bullets in antique Savage lever guns will stop the steady wear of barrels that Savage simply ain't making anymore. Also, it's not necessarily the jacketed bullets that kill a barrel, it's more so the hot powder gases eroding the throats. Tone your loads down, way down, in the old ones fellas. Traditional light cast bullet loads obviate that factor also. ( So you see, they aren't just for fun and games. They're instrumental in saving the old girls if, like me, you like shooting them a lot.)
Would lower velocity loads still be sufficient for hunting deer? I would like to target shoot & hunt with exactly the same load.
I found this old rifle and want to use it, and don't want to abuse it, and so asked.
Which cartridge?
You are probably going to be fine with any off the shelf ammo. There are probably scads of guys on this forum who shoot factory loads through vintage 99s on a regular basis with no problems or thought given to what they are doing. Now having said that, you should have the 99 in question checked by a competent gunsmith before you shoot it if you have any cause for concern - especially if there are any issues with the firearm that have not been brought to light in during the course of this thread.
Would lower velocity loads still be sufficient for hunting deer? I would like to target shoot & hunt with exactly the same load.
The closer you are and the more accurate you can shoot, the less powerful of a cartridge will kill a deer.
You don't need a maxed out load to kill deer. 30-30's have killed millions of deer, and has less power than the 250-3000. You just lose effective range the lower you load it.
The best "stunt shot" I ever pulled off was a deer killed with a .30-30, loaded with a plain base 150 grain cast bullet driven by 8 grains of Bullseye- probably around 1200 fps. One shot in the neck, smashed the spinal column, DRT. I had a doe tag to fill, spied a couple in the front yard when living in a remote bungalow in Pennsylvania. The closest gun and ammo to hand was the Winchester M54 .30-30 I had back then (I own its twin now) and the aforementioned loads. 50 yards, give or take (it was a big front yard), receiver sights naturally.
One of my Pennsylvania uncles killed an insane number of deer with a .22 Hornet.
Look at all the deer killed over the last 100 years with such prosaic rounds as .38 Special, .32-20, .25-20, .45 Colt, etc.
It's a deer, not an indestructible cyborg. So many writers go around ballyhooing magnum this and improved that, such that impressionable folks start to believe that deer just can't be fairly hunted with anything less. No truer aphorism was ever uttered than "it's the Indian, not the arrow."
I found this old rifle and want to use it, and don't want to abuse it, and so asked.
Which cartridge?
250-3000, take down, 22 inch barrel.
As best I can tell, it would be an 1899 according to this link
http://www.savage99.com/models.htm
I found this old rifle and want to use it, and don't want to abuse it, and so asked.
Which cartridge?
250-3000
That one was made for fast jacketed bullets from the get go. You're all set.
I found this old rifle and want to use it, and don't want to abuse it, and so asked.
Which cartridge?
250-3000
That one was made for fast jacketed bullets from the get go. You're all set.
Thanks, I have some Speer 87 gr. bullets on the way, no dies, or brass yet, but do have just over a hundred 22-250 brass, and no gun for them anymore.
You'll want some kind of tapered expander, and you should consider annealing the necks first.
With those 87 grain Speers and modern powders you can reach the 3000 mark with moderate pressures and have a genuine 250-3000.
I was hoping for that FPS
Any powder recommendations?
I;ll probably begin with some IMR4064 that I have on hand,,
RL15 will do it just cruising. Varget too.