Hi all,
Picked up a Savage powder can a short time a go. Curiouse about the label. By miniature lead loads, is that just a reduced load? Wondering if 4 grains of any powder would get a 190 grain 303 far past the muzzle.
I wonder if there was a lighter bullet for this load, no bullet weight is specified.
Looks like Savage had a separate can and powder for full power loads.
Info seems pretty scarce.
Thanks,
Eric

- By miniature lead loads, is that just a reduced load? ... Yes
- I wonder if there was a lighter bullet for this load, no bullet weight is specified. ... most #2 powder loads are 5 gr with a 100 gr lead bullet.
-Looks like Savage had a separate can and powder for full power loads. ... Yes, there was a second powder for standard loads
- Info seems pretty scarce. ... Very. There were different cans styles, different graphics, different powders. What do you have?


None of the powder can books have much on the subject. With the help of others here on the Forum I have acquired info on most can variations. I can help you determine what can you have.

Ok, was Savage making their own powder back then? I seriously doubt it during the first decade after their startup. In turn I wonder whose powder they were re-packaging? A 5 grain charge of Bullseye would be a good all around plinking load with cast bullets, and Bullseye is the longest running powder we have, having been first produced in the 1890's. (I have loaded a bazillion loads of that nature with 155 grain lead bullets in .30 calibers over the last 50 years now. That was my first bullet mold I bought in 1968, and Bullseye and Red Dot were always the powder of choice.)

Thank you for the info Rick99. I had it wrong, not 4 grains, it is 5 grains like you said. The label reads miniature lead cartridges No 4, 30-30 and 303 only. Still surprising no bullet weight is mentioned.
Thank you gnoahhh, I don't have 303 dies yet, but will have to try a load like that in my 30-30.

I have some photos in my phone. Will post as soon as I get a chance to figure the procedure out.

Make a sack full of those loads and have more fun plinking than a sailor in a cathouse after 6 months at sea. Just do not, repeat- do not, use such a light charge of Bullseye (or equivalent) with any jacketed bullets. First off why make plinking loads almost as expensive as "regular hunting" loads? Secondly you run the very real chance of sticking a bullet halfway down the bore. Ask me how I know. (Did it twice long long ago before I got it through my thick head.)

No. Wetteren.

I didn't think they were. I once read that the reason Savage quit marketing ammo is because they were pretty much attacked by the other ammo makers. Having said that, producing powder would have been an enormous task for any maker of firearms. Seems to me that the only reason Winchester got into it was because it came along with Olin when he saved their cookies in the early 30s.

I've heard about the other ammo makers ganging up on Savage, but none of them ever tried to stop making 303 Savage ammo as far as I know. Considering Savage had plans in 1897 to produce their own ammo from Wetteren, I wonder if the ammo mfr story isn't an old wive's tale?

Or maybe it was just a dispute over how much profit Savage was due from Savage branded ammo sales? That seems very possible.

You know its always been my hunch that the 303 Savage just didn't compete well against the 30-30 Winchester. Nobody else ever chambered it and Savage didn't even bother with it in 40/45 Sporter/Super Sporter series - yet they did give their nod to the Winchester cartridge. So I don't think stopping the 303 was ever a big deal in the competitive context of the ammo market. Now stopping all of Savage's ammo production and sales would have been a much bigger deal to their competitors, but I don't know the validity of the story I mentioned above either - its just something I read a long long time ago an in a far far away land.

Savage was brand new in 1894, Winchester was 30 years old and FAMOUS - gun that won the West. It was bad luck for Savage that the 303 Savage came out the same year as the 30 WCF, they really are practically identical.

But it's not that surprising that Winchester and Marlin didn't chamber the 303 Savage when it was from a brand new startup company and they already had one.

Always thought it'd be kind of fun to get an old Winchester and Marlin rechambered into 303 Savage - just for giggle. Wonder how well they'd feed the 303? Hmm.

I think it would be fun just to mess with the Winchester guys! Marlin guys, on the other hand, are cool in my book.

Interesting conversation. I started collecting Savage rifles a couple years ago, or at least that's what I started collecting. IMO no other rifle matches the looks, gracefulness and engineering of the early rifles. To my wife's dismay I am now kinda consumed with anything Savage.

When did Savage stop marketing ammo and powder under their name?

I posted photos of the powder can in the image gallery.

The 1900 catalog states that the 1899 powder version would be shipped. The #1 1899 powder was listed for both the standard and miniature cartridges.

Next variations are the 1901, 1903 and 1911, #1 powder can that states "not for miniature loading". There are at least two other cans prior to the 1899. These are Savage Repeating Arms marked cans.

The new #2 powder, starting in 1901, has the .303 and additional .30-30 loading listed. I think this was the last #2 can produced. This is your can style. Your can is in excellent condition. Many of the cans have rusted under the paper label making them very hard to read.

The #2 powder cans seem to be more common probably because there are fewer variations. All Savage cans are a scares and a pricey item.

I think the last Savage brand ammo was around1964, I think.

(Corrected statements about the 1911 can. I found a readable can and it does list loadings for the .25-35, 32-40 and 38-55. Why 1911 vs 1904 time frame, I don't know.)

I bought a box of Savage brand ammo from Bill McNalley at the Denver show. It had the warning label. Bill said it was produced in 1962 and that that was the first year for the warning label and the last year for Savage brand ammo.
Top 1962 Westfield .303 ammo, bottom late Utica production 30-30 that I got from another vendor in Denver.

back of the above boxes.

David

Bill always has a great ammo selection, and a lot of nice 99's. Guy knows his Savage ammo, that's for sure. Beautiful boxes.

The Child Warning box's are hard to find and that is a nice one. Bill is a good guy. We had a short visit as he passed through town on the way to Denver.

I found photos of a 1911 can so corrected and updated the above info.

Rick
What vintage/model is the can pictured?

Wow, 1962 they started the child warning label. Never would have guessed that early.

Thank you very much for the info on the can Rick. You have obviously put a lot of effort into your research and learning, I am just getting started. Do I have this straight?
There were at least 2 cans prior to the "#1 for standard and miniature cartridges" first produced in 1899. I assume these were a different label. Not #1?

Then there are three more label variations for the #1 can, 1901, 1903 and 1911. All "not for miniature cartridges".

The #2 can also started in 1901, but was only for "miniature cartridges. Sounds like prior to 1901 they had one powder to do it all, so to speak. In 1901 they introduced 2 powders to to handle the various load requirements.

I am sorry, but you lost me on the amended statement for the 1911 can. Is that a #2 can for the 25-35, 32-40 and 38-55? And not sure what you mean by "why 1911 vs 1904 time frame".
Don't mean to be a pest.

David, those are some really nice boxes. attached a photo to the image gallery of 2 250-3000 boxes I have. Having no luck attaching photos to this thread as you did. One is 2 piece and one is Top Notch, wish they were in as good of shape as yours. Do you know when Savage transitioned from the 2 piece box?

Thank You,
Eric

Thank you very much Rick. Fun and interesting side to Savage collecting. Is there a good book or internet available data base on powder cans? Have searched, nothing.

You have to locate all the early Savage catalogs and all the Savage powder cans you can find and make a list.

The only list I have seen is the one I've made.

Having to dig for information on Savage rifles and items is what I find most interesting.

The miniature bullets were around in the 1895 era. I have a box of miniature bullets marked "Savage Repeating Arms Co." Don't know about the powder.
I think the two piece boxes were replaced with one piece boxes sometime in the mid 1920's. I'm not at home or I would check the Savage cartridge book. David

Powder was listed in the 1895 catalog. I have a #1 and #2 Repeating Arms can.

If anyone has a spare "Savage Repeating Arms" can they'd let go I'd like to get to add to my display. David

I've only seen one Repeating Arms #1 and it is not for sale.

You might check with Ralph McElwain and see what he has stashed away.

I have never seen one for sale around here ! Don

Might be a bit of useless info
but this is what is in the June 1895 Catalog
I assume that the #2 you refer to Rick is the S2

If you mean powder cans in general ... 2 vol. set...
https://www.amazon.com/Gun-powder-cans-kegs-1/dp/1884849296more rare then the pistols. Don

Here's 4 powder can. These are Fug's..

First can is dark, so the original pic on the left, and a post-processed picture on the right of it lightened up.

For miniature bullets only, a Savage Repeating Arms Co. No. 2 can. No paper label on this.

Front:



Back:

Next can only has a front.. back is rusted out. Another Savage Repeating Arms Co. can.

For use with metal jacketed bullets only.

A Savage Arms Co. No can, labeled 1903. For 303 and 30-30.

And last a Savage Arms Co. can of Powder No. 2 for miniature lead cartridges No. 4.

And for fun, a couple of Savage Arms Co. "Savage Red Gun Oil" bottles - which I'm not sure I've ever seen before.

Thanks for posting the photos
Very interesting

That is the best Repeating Arms #2 can I have seen. They are all very dark and hard to read and most have missing paint or surface defects that make it even harder to read.

The Repeating Arms cans have all the info painted on. The later cans have paper labels on the back with current loading info. Many of the cans have the original loading info on the side of the can with the paper label having the updated loadings. It is typical to find the paper labels unreadable because of rust(?) coming through the paper from the can. 3 of Doug's cans out of the 4 I would consider to be in as good of condition as you will find.

Thanks for posting.

Thank you Kiwi for posting the catalog page. It seems gallery shooting was an integral part of society in the late 1800s and early 1900s.I have a 22 Colt Lightning gallery gun, but never thought large cartridges of the day would be loaded very light for that purpose.

Thank you Calhoun for posting your powder can photos. Very nice, love the cans, but I gotta say, I am especially intrigued by the glass oil bottles. I have a steel oil can, but they dont seem to be all that uncommon.

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. The time you have put into acquiring both knowledge and historical products from Savage is amazing. Makes the learning curve for newbies, such as myself, a little, maybe a lot, shorter.

Hope I can contribute something useful in the future.

Eric

Peter Zimmerman has a book on Savage ammo. "Savage Ammunition, Cartridges & Boxes From 1895 to 1963". This is an excellent book in it's 3rd Edition, in color, with very informative information. I forget what I paid for mine, but Pete can be reached at [email protected]

Another Link to the book

http://www.rediscovered-shooting-treasures.com/savammobookorder.htm

Fug's cans, not mine. He was kind enough to snap pics and send them for me to post.

Here's a pic of my "Savage Repeating Arms" miniature bullets from my display at the CGCA collector's show in Denver a few weeks ago. David

Great display David. Thanks for sharing that. I have read, and been told about the Denver show. Need to make that one next year.

Eric

Calhoun, looks like I might have found a good topic to answer some questions.

I have been searching through (just getting started) the Ordinance Reports looking to see whch powder company got a contract, if any, to supply the new smokeless powder to the US military. I know by Oct 1893 tests were complete and reports submitted Oct 1st, 1893.

You .30-40 Krag buffs already know this information, this is mainly for my brain and to learn more. It shows the early testing of smokeless powder by the US Government. They used the 30-40 Krag, of which a powder had not yet been adopted for service.


Smokeless powders had been around since at least 1882-1885 but seem to be used in shotguns.

My current understand but still digging!!!


The US Government obtained a large supply of Wetteren powder and I think they or someone purchased the rights from the company? Hard to follow but it is in the 961 page report. The Wetteren powder was used as a "standard" to which further powders would be tested.


Nine powder names would be used but some powder companies sent updated samples which would lead to nearly 25 over all tests.

I noticed John Kort was searching for older information back in 2012 https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...powder/11815/7 When I am searching for something and find his name, I know I am on the right track.


1. Wetteren - Purchased from Cooppal & Cie, Liege Belgium. Used as the testing standard.
2. Smokeless Powder Company Limited, London
A) Rifleite
B) S.R.
C) S.V.
3. B.N.F. - Procured from Hotchkiss Ordinance Company in 1882
4. Peyton - California Powder Company, Santa Cruz California. Plant explosion was the demise and what was left went to Dupont in 1903, operated after 1906 then to Hercules? Powders named to replace Peyton for the 30-40 are unknown to me at the moment. That is the information I am looking for. By this time, I think it was Sharpshooter
5. Leonard - Various powder samples, from Salem
A) Sample "N" and "J", submitted March 1893
B) Samples "J" and "N" submitted April 1893
C) No. 7
D) 13A
C) United States
6. Dupont - a redish Brown colored powder of small regular grains
7. Axtell - New York, Samples 1, 2 and 3
8. Troisdorf - (SS Smokeless Shotgun cira 1900 also used in the 44-40). Eventually marked by Laflin & Rand till 1900
9. Alters - Sweat Home, Ark.


Dates of testing were between Spring 1892 and Spring 1893.


Tests included in Report to Chief Of Ordinance Oct 1st, 1893


Of those powders, Peyton and Leonard were reported to be the two superior powders. It is of these two powders as to what was (at least) to be offered to civilians by 1897 as, what would appear to be W. A. 30 under several labels and names through turnovers of powder companies during those years. It looks as if the early W-A powder was of the Cordite filaments "stick type" but eventually formed into a disc type from what I understand as W.A. 30 by 1897.


Eventually Sharpshooter powder (Laflin & Rand) was of the same formula but smaller grains as W.A. 30 by 1900. Sharpshooter was a great powder for the 44-40.

My main question is does anyone know what powder the military settled with to load the 30-40? I may be missing some other information be we certainly know the Springfield .308 came out by 1899? I have yet to look that far.

Powder Can Photos, always being updated!! https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44...can-collection

Review of the Report To The Chief Of Ordinance: https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44...f-of-ordinance

The Report, best to open settings and view as PDF: https://books.google.com/books?id=74...page&q&f=false

Savage imported Wetteren powders

Might be my computer But I can't open any of those links
Cheers

I had to copy and paste the link.

Thanks Rick
Got that to work

Sorry guys, changed servers and updated the pages.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/powders/report-of-the-chief-of-ordinance

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/powders/smokeless-powders-transition-years