Hi All -

I have compiled some load test data with 303 Savage loads using Leverevolution powder that you might find interesting. The usual disclaimer - I do not certify these loads as being safe, do your own thinking.

First I tried 150 grain Hornady round noses with 36 grains of LVR, and compared them to my usual 33.5 grain load of IMR 4895. I compared these two loads in an 1899A with 26" barrel, 1895 with 24" barrel, 1899A Saddle with 22" barrel, and 1899 SRC with 20" barrel. Here is a velocity comparison. Primer backing was measured, and there was virtually no detectable difference betwen the two loads with the same rifle.

Rifle Barrel V (LVR) V (4895) Difference
1899A 26" 2347 2232 116
1895 24" 2315 2172 144
Saddle 22" 2286 2187 99
SRC 20" 2206 2127 79

I also tried some 180 grain Sierra FN Hunters with 33 gr LVR and 28 gr 3031. I did not like the 3031, my brass was imprinted into the chamber where the LVR was still a shiny case. These were only fired in the 1899A with 26" barrel

V(LVR) V(3031) Difference
2122 1963 159


Last I tried the Barnes 190 grain FN with 32 and 33 gr LVR in the 1899 with 26". Velocities were 2157 and 2169 respectively. I felt both were a little warm, I will try 31 grains with this bullet later.

I have some questions maybe this group can answer regarding primer backing. With the 150 gr RN, each rifle was as follows:

Rifle Primer Back
1899A 0.006
1895 0.005
Saddle 0.008
SRC 0.005

With the 180 gr bullet in the 26" barrel, primer backing was .009, and with the 190 gr bullet it was .009 with 32 gr LVR and .006 with 33 gr LVR.

Can anyone answer these questions:

1. What is an acceptable amount of primer backing?
2. Is there a decent way to repair if any of these are not safe?
3. Why did the 33 gr LVR show less backing thatn the 32 gr in the 26" barrel? I assume the reason the 150 gr bullet backing was less than the 180 and 190 in the 26" barrel is due to the lighter bullet weight.

Thanks for your comments.

good information. 2 questions--Sierra makes a 170 FN and a 180 RN. Which did you utilize? What manufacturer of brass and primer did you use? The primer protrusion question is above my pay grade as I have similar problems. Have you shot the Graf's by Hornady Ammo? Did you get, and if so how much, protrusion? Did you get a chrony speed of the at factory ammo? I've laid my protrusion off to a rough chamber which I have addressed once with a fired case lap covered with JB bore paste. Think it helped but not yet positive. Will give a second treatment and make a further assessment.

They were the 180 gr RN, sorry not FN. The brass is PPU and the primers were CCI 200's. I have never shot any factory 303 Savage ammo.

NorthwestHunter,
Thanks for the great info/comparison on the LVR power. Velocities of the LVR are quite impressive. I'll look forward to hearing your result with the 190 Barnes at 31.0.


Can you provide any insight into how the LVR was grouping vs. the IMR 4895?

A lot of really good information OP, nicely done and thank you for posting. Just new to the 303 myself.

Thanks guys. I haven't done any accuracy testing yet, but I expect good results. One thing I have noticed is that all of my loads, regardless of bullet weight or velocity, seem to hit high at 100 yds in all of my 303 Savage rifles. I am not sure if that is because I am pushing the velocities or if they were meant to hit at 200 yds, or what. If I have a Lyman tang sight that is not a problem, but I really don't want to modify the sights on some of them as they are original sights.

Simplest solution is to install higher front sights. Keep the originals to place back on for posterity's sake. Guessing this happens because you're shooting a lot of lighter-than-190 loads and as such the higher velocities will tend to increase height of impacts.

And then wrap the original sight in some wax paper and put in the hole in the butt stock. The next owner will thank you.

If you need some Lyman sights let me know.

I have accumulated a bunch.

Need funds to get a 4 wheeler.

Great info, I found very similar results.

Any gunsmith comments on my primer backing questions? Thanks

I am not a gunsmith.

I worked up a load for my new to me model 71 Winchester . I used FTX bullets , and IMR 4350. New win brass, 250 cci primers.

The load range was 55 to 60.7 grains. ( I believe the lower end was that)

The lower end of powder charges the primers looked protuberant.

I stepped up shots by . 5 grains. Once I got up to 58.5 grains the primers appeared more normal.

At 59 they started to look like they were starting to flatten out, I have had the best luck when this would appear.

I believe lower pressure loads can cause protruberant primers. But that is just my belief, I could be wrong.

Protruberant? WTF is that? Do I need a dictionary now to read the forum?

Definition of Protruberant:

What happens to a woman's nipples when they see an image of .............




me.

Hey, Great testing and thanks for the info. As far as the primers backing out it’s less than ideal but expected with old lever rifles.
While it will shorten case life the 1899’s are the least offensive. Hope to share loads and chrony’s with you.
Tom

I might also mention that only at high pressure will the case break free from the chamber wall and show no primer protrusion. I love cal 303 so let’s hear more!
Tom

Hello I am new to savage 303 also. I got a 1899b serial number 10,94x about a year ago and fired some factory Winchester ammo and the primers backed out quite a bit. Took it to my gunsmith who I believe is very knowleable and has worked on alot of 1899 and 99s to have the bore slugged and measured. He wouldn't do it as he said every early 303 that he had ever slugged Mike's at .310 to .312. Told me to buy some speer 180gr round nose .311 bullets and try that. He also said to try 33grs of 4064 with this bullet. He got this data from an old reloading manual so i don't know if it's a safe load or not, use at your own risk. I loaded up some loads with this combo and Walla no more primers backing out. Now this might be happening because the case is slamming back against the bolt from excess pressure and pushing the primer back in. One more thing, if i get a .308 bullet i can drop it down the muzzle about 2 inches. The bore is a little rough but the lands and groves look pretty good.

Being able to drop a bullet 2" down the bore could well mean that it was subjected to a lot of ham-handed cleaning rod use over the last 12 decades. I thought the consensus was that Savage did no such thing as make the .303's groove diameter .311, even in the very beginning. (But that they did muck about with .311 bullets in .308 barrels early on in an effort to boost pressure+velocity, but that they dropped it as being the crummy idea that it is.) That old wive's tale has kicked around into recent times, and I'll bet there's more than one gunsmith still out there who bought into it.

A 180 grain .311 bullet over 33 grains 4064 launched through a .308 barrel? Sounds like a heckuva high pressure situation to me. I bet the primers were mashed back into their pockets! The trouble with data from old manuals is that depending on the outfit who cooked up the data, said data could be way off base by today's standards. Some of those characters didn't have pressure testing equipment, or had it and didn't know how to use it. Speer was one of those culprits back a gazillion years ago, and since he recommended a 180 .311 Speer bullet for this adventure sounds kind of suspiciously that it may have come from one of those old Speer manuals that are suspect.

That gunsmith fella, well, the very least he could've done was checked your headspace while he was spinning yarns.

Another thing I don't quite understand is "thebore is a little rough but the lands and grooves look good". Huh?

Thanks Gary! Spot-on!!

It seems the concept of headspace across different cartridges is poorly understood.

The old Lyman 45 lists that as a max load for a 170grain .308 bullet. I don't trust the old load data either ... it's hot; then add on another 10 grains to the bullet and another .03" bullet diameter. It has to be a very hot load, especially for a square bolt 1899B made in 1899. Don't think I would take any more advice from that gunsmith.

Thanks for your advice. I thought it might be a hot load toothats why i started at 30 grains and worked up. The weird thing is the primers were round not flat at all. Maybe the bore is so worn that pressure signs didnt show. Dont any of you guys have any bores that look a little dark but the lands and grooves are still pronounced.

For me personally the bore is one of the first things I look at, and have walked away from screaming deals on collectible guns that had dodgy bores.

" if i get a .308 bullet i can drop it down the muzzle about 2 inches. "

Might the end of the barrel been reamed to get down to less worn rifling?

The pre-90,000 rifles can crack in the corners at the rear of the bolt.

Shot a couple trial 303 Savage loads today with Leverevolution (LVR) and the Barnes 190FP bullet. I put them over the chrono.

There is no load data for LVR with the 190grs. Hodgdon online lists a 30-30 Win LVR starting and max load for a 170gr Sierra FP as 33.0 and 36.3C (2145 and 2332 fps) in a 24" barrel.

Based on the 170 grain 30-30 data, I loaded up a few 303 Savage with 30.0 and 31.0 grains LVR with the Barnes 190FP.

I fired two of each from my 1920 1899H 303 Savage at 50 yds. 30.0 grains averaged 1772 fps, 31.0 grains averaged 1823 fps. About a 1.5" group, Lyman 57SA sight. Easy extraction, no signs of any pressure on casing. For comparison, back in 2015, I chrono'd six of the factory Super-X 190 grain silvertips in the same 1899H rifle; they averaged 1791fps.

I had so much fun shootin 190 gr Silvertips at the 7 pointer I got in MD last year, I broke down and bought 10 boxes of them from some Bullet Scalper out in Orygun. Should last my lifetime.

totally.

C'mon, Joe. You're going to live more than 6 months to a year aren't you? If you got into casting bullets and shooting regularly 200 rounds would equal just a couple/few range sessions.

This is incorrect.
I’ll try to explain what is actually going on.

I’m talking about factory ammo or handloaded cases that have been sized to factory spec. and fired in a rifle with excessive head space. This could also apply to cases that have been incorrectly manufactured or sized in a bad full length sizing die that left head space short. Either way it’s a head space issue.

In a low pressure load the firing pin hits the primer and drive the cartridge as far forward into the chamber as it can go. The powder ignites and pressure builds expanding the case to grip the chamber. The pressure pushes the primer back out of the primer pocket against the bolt face but there is not enough pressure to stretch the brass case so you have a protruded primer.

In a higher pressure load once again the firing pin hits the primer and drive the cartridge as far forward into the chamber as it can go. The powder ignites and pressure builds expanding the case to grip the chamber. The pressure pushes the primer backs out against the bolt face but this time with the case still expanded to grip the chamber there is enough pressure to also stretch the brass case back until it is stopped by the bolt face. This action of the primer backing out and then the case backing out reseating the primer can cause some very ugly flat primers. This is excessive head space and will cause case head separations.

The handloader can control this to some extent by adjusting his sizing die to set the shoulder back a couple of thousand instead of sizing the case back to factory specs but bear in mind that the case has probably been weakened.

Doc

Yes DocFoster that is the way I always understood that too. You explained it much better than I could, but that is why primer backs out with the lighter loads.

I am planning to do just what you said about the case resizing for my loads for an 1899H.
I just bought the Lee Dies, unfortunately nobody makes a neck sizing die for 303 savage. Can you explain how to adjust the die to bump the shoulder back down a bit. Is there a way to run the case partially up into the FL die to resize the neck and leave the body of the case alone?