Just received a rifle advertised as a 1920/26 in 250-3000 that I was really looking forward to. I should have edumacated myself more on these before taking the plunge. Turns out it is a 1920 receiver and stock - although the stock and butt plate are numbered about 9000 numbers higher than the receiver - mated to a 24-inch Chicopee Falls barrel. That makes the barrel post 1946, correct? Its a beautiful dang thing with a Lyman 54 peep but not original. Now I have to deal with the seller. Not how I wanted to spend the holiday weekend.

That is not the original barrel.

Should have an integrated front sight and a Utica address. And a 20/26 would not have dovetail for a rear sight.

That is a pieces parts gun.

Edit: If memory serves me I seem to recall that Jeff had mentioned that at the very end of production there may may been some barrels with the raised ramp front sight produced. I have never seen one or heard tell of one, but I certainly would not question his expertise on any matter concerning a 1920 or 20/26.

I am a bottom feeder, and I no longer own a 250/3000.

I want one of these rifles.

Let minnow if it is 4 sale!

I’d wait to hear what some of the more we’ll healed members here have to say before you let your weekend get ruined. I’m not sure what to make of the serial numbers but I’d say that guns made with the 54 probably were not dovetailed for a rear sight on the barrel. That could be a 99 barrel, which as far as I can tell were the same barrels used for the 1920 and 20/26, but just machined differently to fit their respective rifles. But regardless, let some of the other guys jump in before you make a final decision on what you have.

Thanks guys. I'll wait. I am wondering if this rifle could have been sent to Savage to be repaired and they installed the barrel? Serial number is 1474 and number on the stock and butt plate is 10715. I paid not insignificant money for it so if it is something someone frakensteined together then I don't know.........? However, whoever did the work was very very good. More photos.

Even if not all original, that is a sweet little rifle

I doubt a Chicopee Falls EG or R barrel profile would fit in a 1920 barrel channel, so I’d guess a factory replacement.

It’s not uncommon for stock serial numbers to differ from the receiver, in fact it’s probably the norm. But not off by 9,000.

Wait for 260Remguy, but it’s definitely not standard factory issue.

I'd say it has a 1920 stock and bolt. But I'd also say what Mr. Billu said above!

The serial number on the receiver is very early, as the serial numbers started at 1000.

The serial numbers on the stock and buttplate SHOULD be from a 20/26, as the change from 1920 to 20/26 occurred around 10500, but the stock and buttplate are 1920 style, not 20/26 style. I would guess that they were production over-runs that were already on the warehouse shelf before the 20/26 redesign was adopted.

The barrel is a replacement. Production of the 1920s and 20/26s ended long before Savage left Utica for Chicopee Falls in 1947. The original barrel installed on that receiver would have been a 22" featherweight barrel with a short integral base for a pinned front sight blade.

Bottom line is that this is a non-original parts gun, a shooter, not a collector.

I appreciate the replies. It is a potentially sweet little shooter. What would a WAG of value be if I wanted to make an offer to the seller? I know this is hard without handling the rifle in person. I paid a grand for it when I thought it was original. Might just be best to get my money back and look for an unmolested example. Thanks again.

$600 if I wanted a shooter.

If the seller represented it as being in its original/factory configuration, he/she was wrong.

IIRC, there is a picture of a rifle that looks a lot like your's in Frank DeHaas's Bolt Action Rifle Book in the chapter on the 1920.

260Remguy - Given the rifle in question, could it have been built at the factory with the mix of parts you mentioned and then sent back to the factory at a later date for a new barrel, even possibly a change in caliber? Of course on the other end of the spectrum I guess it could have been a total parts build that was executed by someone with good skill and taste. It is a nice looking bolt gun and, if it were me, I’d be inclined to get a factory letter in it just to help solve some of the mystery.

Never say never when it comes to Savages, but the three primary components of your rifle are way out of sync.

The receiver is very early, so probably made in 1919 or early 1920.

The stock and buttplate are in the 1920 configuration, but the serial number is in the 20/26 range that starts at approximately 10500. That suggests to me that they were made in anticipation of sales that never materialized and were already in the components warehouse when the decision to reconfigure the 1920 into the 20/26 happened in late 1925 or early 1926. The change went into effect in mid-1926.

The barrel is obviously at least 25 years newer than the action, as the entire 1920 and 20/26 series were made in Utica.

The serial number make it too early to be a 300 Savage, so if must have originally been a 250-3000 with a 22" featherweight barrel.

A factory letter should tell you when it was accepted for shipping to the original buyer and it might tell you that it had been shipped back for a stock replacement and a barrel replacement, but probably not.

The barrel looks like a post-WW2 99EG or 99R configuration to me.

I don't think that there is any mystery involving this rifle other than who put it together, why it was put together, and when it was put together. Heck, I have enough parts to put together a few myself if the mood moved me.

If it was represented to you as being correct and original, it just isn't either of those things.

Yes, it was sold to me as a genuine 1920/26. I think the seller was seeing the 24-inch barrel and Lyman sight and not looking at the serial number, bolt, or stock. I should have seen these things as well. He has agreed to take it back and refund my money. The question is should I offer him (a-lot) less and keep it as a shooter? The rifle is a nice bit of kit; shoulders very well, it has the Lyman sight, and, as pointed out by a forum member in a PM, the newer barrel will probably stabilize longer, larger, modern bullets.

A Chicopee Falls barrel will have the same 1 in 14” twist as the original barrel. Change to 1 in 10” twist didn’t happen until 1960.

Jaaack,

Thanks. That does help with the decision.

John

I would offer the seller $600 and ask for a refund of the difference between that and what you paid for it. If he wants more than $600, I'd ask for a full refund and keep looking for an original/correct 20/26.

Savage kept making 250-3000s with a 1-14" ROT until they moved to Westfield, MA., and changed the 99s from a lever safety to tang safety style with "V" threaded barrels replacing square threaded barrels. Savage may have made 250-3000 barrels in that configuration with a faster ROT, but if they did, they were never cataloged as such. If you measure the ROT will the quick/easy cleaning rod method I think that you'll find that the ROT is closer to 1-14" than 1-10"

EDIT: AFAIK, the only Savage 99s chambered in 250-3000 with 24" barrels that were made and cataloged with a 1-10" ROT were the nearly impossible to find Westfield built 99DLs. Those barrels had a light contour and featured a barrel boss dovetailed for an open rear sight, During the decades that I've been interested in Savage 99s I can only recall seeing two 99DL chambered in 250-3000.

What 260Remguy said above about offering $600.00 and asking for a full refund if the seller isn’t interested sounds like good advice to me. And, on the lighter side of things, if you end up keeping it I would refer to the rifle as your “custom” 1920 as it is a cut above what most guys refer to as shooters and it appears to reflect someone’s effort to build a nice rifle. If you do keep it be sure to get a letter and to follow up on this thread with a new post on what you found out.


PS - what the heck, I’ll throw this out there. I don’t know how this could be verified but wouldn’t it be a hoot if the rifle turned out to be “lunch box build” by some Savage employee. I’ve seen pictures of nicely built Winchester 94s that had parts from different time periods that turned out to be “lunch box” guns.

Quite likely the seller believed it to be original and did not misrepresent the gun purposely.

He probably doesn't have the same resources of information that you do JohnL.

I have no doubt it was an honest mistake. I will get a letter if he accepts my offer. Thanks guys!

You are welcome and best of luck in straightening it out. Regardless, at the end of the day it is a nice looking bolt gun.

I have a 99G in 30-30 that was once an 1899H in 22HP. The factory letter explains it all. It also explains that this was done for a Savage employee.

You never know.

If the gun went back to the factory after world war ll and had a replacement barrel put on it at Chicopee Falls, that isn't going to show up in any factory letter. Aside from the barrel question there are the other inconsistencies that Jeff 260Remguy pointed out.

99.99% somebody screwed that gun together in their basement. Which is A OK. Not throwing shade on it, it's a very nice example, but let's not give the man false hope and call it something it ain't.

The only thing a factory letter is going to tell him is how the gun(s) was/were born. And then what serial number do you letter? The receiver or the stock and the butt plate?

I suppose you could letter both...

I never expected a factory letter to be the answer to everything. I only expected it to be one more resource that may, or may not, shed some light on the situation. Now I really need to back away from this argument as I’m the guy who usually finds little worth in spending money on a letter from the factory historian. Scheezzz....

I am not expecting anything out of this but a nice “custom” shooter. Not sure if I will letter it or not? As someone wrote never say never with Savages. I’ve enjoyed all the comments very much. Thanks to all!

I wouldn't even consider getting a letter for it. That money would buy a lot of ammo with which to shoot it, and it won't shoot any differently with a letter either.

Ain't that the truth.

I'd use that thing like a rented mule.

I intend to if my offer is accepted. Still waiting to hear.

...note to self; don't let Roy borrow any tools

...or your mule.

Say Jeff, I've been meaning to get ahold of you.

Damn.

I was going to say that...

Good news, they accepted my offer. And, no, Roy, you cannot borrow it ...................

And alls' well that ends well. By the way, what did the seller happen to say about it?

The seller said he had no idea about the barrel or stock and I believe him. There isn't a lot of information out there about the Savage 1920 or 1920/26 unless you come to this forum. Honest mistake and he took care of it.

Why the war chest is empty - all purchased over the last year or so.. My custom 1920 in 250-3000 at the bottom with my Savage 99E in 22HP, Savage 1899F SRC in 32-40, Savage 99H Barrel Band in 250-3000 with a couple of rare interlopers - a Remington 14 1/2 carbine in 38WCF and Winchester 1910 deluxe in .401SL.

I'll take the 32-40 SRC

SPFs?

None are for sale........., or rent.

I'd say you are ready to hunt just about any mammal that walks this continent, and tigers too! nice collection of unique calibers in unique rifles there!

I'd like to borrow the 32-40. I promise not to put more than four or five thousand rounds through it.

Speaking of mules.."...

My wife likes whipped cream flavored vodka......

So when I make a Moscow Mule out of the " whipped" vodka 4 her I call it a rented mule!

Again, all’s well that ends well. And to that I’ll add it’s good hearing a story about honest people making honest mistakes. That’s a nice collection you got going there!

Got the letter from Savage Historical Services and the 1920 was sent to B.H. Dyas in Los Angeles March 11, 1920. Nothing about it being worked on by the factory.

Doesn't mean it wasn't worked on at the factory, they just may not have that work order or be able to find it. So it's up in the air - maybe reworked at factory, maybe rebuilt by a gunsmith.

Thanks Calhoun. Does Savage Historical Services let private citizens research the records?

No. I understand the ledgers are very fragile. But.. That would be nice.

Still a very cool rifle. You should take it to Savage as a prototype for new production. Just kidding, but still...

Really amazes me that someone at Savage hasn't had the forethought to digitize the old ledgers. There's plenty of companies out there they could farm the job out to that would be happy to put all that information into a searchable database so whomever is looking it up to do the letters would just have to search by model and serial number on the computer. Just need to make sure they pick one that has experience in working with old documents to ensure the originals aren't damaged.

Definitely seems like it’d be possible.
The Scranton Times-Tribune just this week has made their entire 158 years of digitized archives available online.

Therein lies the problem.

Digitizing or copying the records essentially makes them worthless to whoever the owners are, ever have been or ever will be. Whomever has them has to essentially be willing kill the golden goose before they will be preserved in perpetuity.

sooo true......

What am I missing? If they copy them they don't have to stick them on the web? Just keep them for their own use.

I'm not so sure Savage is really making much money off a data base they don't seem to respect enough to preserve. That goose is likely not a golden one for Savage. And besides, they could digitize and charge a fee to access the digital library. In that way Savage would be going self serve in a way that seems to be plaguing many service related industries across the land these days. But don't get me going on self serve.

Yes, a fire, broken water pipe or some other unfortunate accident and the records are gone forever.

I gotta agree with those points.

Perhaps it would cost more to digitize them (and still keep them under wraps) than what they make off of "letters"?

Instead of storming Area 51 maybe we should storm Savage Arms to rescue the ledgers. (Insert the scene in Animal House of Bluto exhorting the Delta House misfits to calamitous deeds after they got kicked out of school. https://youtu.be/q7vtWB4owdE )

About 20-years ago I did a lot of field-survey on the Nellis Bombing Range. We worked the first two playas and slopes east of Indian Springs and had we gone over the next saddle we would have descended into Groom Lake, AKA Area-51. Good lord that's some of the most God forsaken desert I've ever seen. I'd rather storm Savage with a cold beer in hand than Area 51 any day of the week.

And the "Germans bombed Pearl Harbor" scene from Animal House has always been on my top five favorite movie scenes list!

Digitizing could easily be done... but the ledgers are probably so fragile that it'd have to be done by hand. One page at a time.

Lots and lots of pages, lots and lots of man hours, lots of cost.

Not for or against, just throwing this out.

Vista has sold Savage to Long Range Acquisition LLC, according to a Securities and Exchange Commission filing—is a “group of investors headed by Savage President and CEO Al Kasper.” Who knows what they will do with the historical records (which includes the Fox files that are on index cards). I'm sure that the money made from letters is very minimal.

Maybe donate or sell the records for a nominal fee to The Cody Firearms Museum Records Office? Winchester, Marlin and L.C. Smith records are already housed there.

I bet you the cost wouldn't be as astronomical as you might expect and Savage might be able to get a grant if they set things up right. But first I would have to ask if a digitizing project would even make a dent in their budget as they seem to have had a pretty good run over the last 20-years. I think its more an issues of no concern than it is of no money. Everybody is interested in history but unfortunately the buck stops right there. Nobody ever wants to do anything about it if it comes with a cost.

That is where they should be IMO.

What does Cody charge for a letter?

Thought it was a lot higher.

There may come a time where another Savage historian is approved by Savage and gets the ledgers. Price could even drop then (who knows?).

I'd hesitate before pushing for them to be shipped off somewhere that they will never come back from.

The fee for Winchester, Marlin and L.C. Smith factory letters is $70.00.

The LCSCA either has the Smith records or a digital copy of them (I suspect the latter), and if a member of the Association wants a letter it costs only $50 from the club's "record keeper", Jim Studdienbeck.. ($75 for a non-member.)

That brings to mind a question that has surfaced in the pea soup of my brain from time to time. Every major make of vintage gun has its followers who have formed a formal Association and maintain cool websites- why hasn't an official Savage Collector's Association ever been formed? This forum is great, and the Facebook bunch is a nice bunch of fellas, but both are just informal "granfalloons" (A word made up by Kurt Vonnegut, meaning a group with a common interest but no other formal ties- a bunch of drunks from all walks of life crowding a bar and all drinking the same brand of vodka would be a granfalloon). A formal organization, with a charter (and secret handshakes maybe) would be the natural recipient of cast off ephemeralla (ie: records, old sales literature, executive's arrest warrants, etc.), not to mention being a repository of all knowledge of things Savage. It would be something for the Ages, something that would live on after us.

Its a great idea and a fantastic way to memorialize all things Savage, or at least 99 if that was the intended mission. I assume that such associations maintain websites with their own specialized forums. Great idea!

I honestly doubt Savage cares enough one way or another to invest much of anything into the archives. To them it's probably a giant yawn. Mega-corporations concern themselves with making mega-money, and I doubt a bunch of tightwad collectors complaining about the cost of $65 historical letters is high on their list a GAF's. Someone would be doing them a favor to write them a check for the ledgers and handle them privately. Win/win.

Who's gunna step up?

A collectors association would probably be able to raise the scratch. A viable alternative to that idea would simply be for Savage to make a long term loan of the records to the NRA museum. I'm sure the museum would love to get them in their collection and I'm double sure they would provide the needed preservation.

Yep, the majority of the Winchester factory records wound up fueling the factory furnaces in the 1950’s. The rationale was freeing up space and saving money on fuel. The Winchester people can only shake their heads now.
In this day and age irreplaceable archives/records need to be in the hands of a responsible steward before they are gone forever.

I'm sure the lawyers had some say in Winchesters deliberate destruction of their records.