I have noticed a few data points in my rummaging and wondering if any dots can be connected.
Not trying to poke holes in any existing print/knowledge, but rather build upon it if possible.

Here are the data points;

1) Arthur Savage resided in Bay Ridge/Brooklyn ~1890 +/- couple years.


2) Arthur Savage rec'd a patent in Oct. 1891 for Magazine or Single Loading Rifle, his address Bay Ridge/Brooklyn



3) A July 1892 newspaper article mentions a Savage rifle/.32 cal. submitted to government testing/Springfield June 25 and manufactured by E.W. Bliss Company/Brooklyn.
(E.W. Bliss was a design/manufacturing contractor)




Both Murray & Royal books make mention of the 1892 & 1893 prototypes with pics in David's book p.10,11 & 12. The rifle specs and patents are mentioned.

I am wondering if this "E.W. Bliss" manufactured rifle is possibly the 1892 prototype or some other prototype. ??
The confusion for me is that the 1891 patent does not look like the 1892 prototype pic/potbelly rec'r.. Also the news article says .32 vs. David's book which indicates .30
The 1893 patent does look like the 1893 prototype rifle to my eye and is mentioned as .32
Further, the "Colt drawings" from the Savage factory are dated Aug. 1893

Granted, this topic is probably only for a limited audience here on the forum.
Q: Who made what when??
Looking for input, thoughts and other questions regarding this "E.W. Bliss" rifle.
Thanks.

I don't know what to think of it. The mag protrudes below a straight line like the 1892 prototype but the lever pivot is shown inside the bottom of the magazine. The 1892 prototype's lever is pivoted well in front of the mag.

Chatted with Fug tonight, and we both think there's some confusion going on and conjoining a couple of different rifles here.

The rifle mentioned in the article is almost surely the 1893 rifle in Murray's, on pages 2-2/2-3. It's called the 1893 because that's when the patent was granted.. not because it's when the rifle was built.

The patent for the 1893 rifle was applied for on February 23, 1892, granted on February 7, 1893. So between the design time and then gunsmiths working and building the 1893 rifle - November 1891 to June 1892 makes sense. It IS a beautiful piece of the armorer's art, and it IS believed to be in 32-20 - so a 32 caliber rifle as mentioned in the article.

The only thing that's confusing to me in the article is the "entered on June 25th".

On June 14th, 1892 the Chief of Ordnance of the Army reported that Arthur Savage submitted a rifle for the US Army tests. It definitely was NOT a 32-20, since it fired a 30 caliber cartridge with a 230gr bullet on top of 36gr of powder according to the army report. That's either a 30-40 Krag, or another cartridge of the same class. It's almost surely the 1892 rifle.

So I think we have some journalistic error here.

1) A Savage rifle was submitted in June, 1892 (the 1892 rifle on Murray page 2-0 & 2-1)
2) And a fine Savage rifle probably was finished at about the same time (the 1893 rifle, pages 2-2 & 2-3).

But I think they were different guns.

It's quite possible the backers went to see the 1892 rifle at the trials, but that the 1893 rifle was shown to the reporter.

Arthur wasn't above some redirection...

So the question is: Was the 1892 rifle made by E. W. Bliss, or was the 1893 rifle? Or both? I would guess the 1893 as very likely.

A few other dates:
* Another magazine gun was patent #502018 applied for on April 10, 1889 and granted on July 25, 1893.
* The 1893 rifle patent #491,138 applied for on February 23, 1892 and granted February 7, 1893
* The 1895 firing pin indicator patent #611,284 was applied for on January 17, 1893 and granted on September 27, 1898.
* The 1899 patent #634,034 was applied for in April 21, 1897. Granted October 3, 1899. This included the 1899 bolt cocking indicator.

Southern_WI_Savage, that 1895 firing pin indicator patent being in January of 1893 means the Colt work in August 1893 almost had to be for creating the first 1895's and the fixtures/etc for machining them.

Third from left in this picture is the 1892 rifle. Fifth from left is the 1893 rifle. David has much better pictures in his book.

Click for full sized picture.

Thank you Rory & Fug!
For taking the time to review this information and the summary reply.

Sounds like there was much activity by Arthur & Co. during the late 1880's and early 1890's.
Attempting to understand the who/what/where's with limited information is challenging.
Also, attempting to understand the relationships between patents, articles & prototypes if any is interesting as well.
I'll keep a look'in for potentially related tidbits.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Thanks for this thread.

Had me digging thru all my patent stuff to decipher this one.

Think I posted a thread a few years back about how the Savage rifle was a Brooklyn invention. Never seen this article before, the naming of a factory somewhere to house them is a new one to me. They were talking just a few months before this of building the factory back in Utica. Good find!

The gun at the top of the page in the patent is a stacked magazine gun, not a rotary model. Don’t think a prototype was built, or it was lost to time?

You are a great researcher Rick. You should write a book. And Rory should collaborate.

Yes, I was viewing the 2010 Savage Fest CD with patent info frequently. Thanks to GeneB for compiling the CD.

Arthur Savage had three patents for Martini type repeaters, the fist was a large caliber with the lever hinged behind the trigger guard - .uspto.gov/00366512
The next appears to be for shorter cartridges and has the lever hinged in front of the trigger, this is probably the patent for the porotype at Savage Arms - uspto.gov/00378525

Here is the patents for the smaller sized rotor magazine rifle. filed Feb 23 1892 - uspto.gov/00491138

Hmm,... I do have roughed out biographies for the Savage Arms engravers and nowhere to go with them...

Go for it. I have a lot of photos of engraved guns and a lot of sources who own engraved guns that I can provide you guys.

I was tearing my desk apart looking for my copy.. I think it's packed in a box with stuff from the last Fest still. Argh.

There is more info in the Misc Good Things sticky's, NY Trials. I added this link to it.

I don't think anything there applies to the news article above, but it definitely applies to patents, prototypes and predecessors. Thanks, Rick.

Agreed, just trying to keep this early pre-1895 info together. Very confusing.

Well, not quite a predecessor to the 1899 but still a pretty cool hunk of fire power from ol' Arthur Savage in 1891.

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=00456524

Shall we include .22's? I like the squirrel and the woodcock.
Were shotguns engraved? or roll engraved? Examples?

I like the idea of covering all engraved Savages.

Shotguns? I have a Savage 720 (Browning Auto 5 clone) with rolled "engraving".

Back to patents, when I compiled the patents for the CD the only available resource I knew of was the US Patent Office web site and it was not very user friendly, since then there is GOOGLE Patents which is easier to use but often puts out far to many results making it harder to find something specific. The only resource for any foreign patents I could find at that time was in Great Britain and only went back to 1927 (and was very hard to use).

In the last couple years the European Patent Office search site, Espacenet, has been vastly improved and is very easy to use, and it includes US patents. added - I notice that they do not seem to find all the patents.

Here are Arthur Savage's foreign patents, they are the same as the US patents, the pictures are on the last pages so click the arrows -
Canadian CA27284A
British GB189919848A
British GB190004397A
Canadian CA142098A

Here is the result of a search of patents for his son Basil - patents by Basil H Savage

...and son Arthur J Savage - patents by Arthur J Savage

I still use the US Patents Office web site because it offers some information that is not found on the others, but not as often anymore and I hardly ever use GOOGLE Patents now. The USPTO site has made some changes recently that make it harder to copy the patents, all are .pdf files now, before you could easily make copies in a choice of 2 digital picture formats.

E.W. Bliss was also on The Board of Examiners. Hmmmm.....