Hello, i have an early, serial number 10.9xx savage 1899b 303 with an extremely dirty barrel that i am trying to clean up. I used hoppers, soaked in kroil for days and patches still come out black. Any suggestions would be appreciated or am I just pissing up a rope? Thanks

I have a 1920 that was/is similarly dirty. I went through a bulk pack of patches as well as several bronze brushes and a lot of cleaners. I found the best means of cleaning was to plug the muzzle with a cork and then poor enough Hoppe's in to fill the entire barrel. I would let it sit like that for a couple of days before removing the cork and dumping out the Hoppe's.

Take a patches to the bore to get out the loose stuff, then a wire brush followed by more patches. Then start all over. I found this to be better than the foaming cleaners for getting out carbon as the foam would eventually flow to the lowest level and leave the higher areas less clean. A couple rounds of this and I would work on copper removal with Wipe Out or other copper removing solvent. Then back to the cork and Hoppe's for another go. I took JB Bore Paste to it a couple of times too, it seemed to pull out junk that the other methods couldn't handle.

I eventually got to the point patches came out dark grey rather than pitch black. I'm guessing the bore is fairly pitted and getting a truly clean barrel is a pipe dream. A bore scope could give me a good idea what is going on but I don't have one and don't know someone with one to borrow.

I loaded up some loads with IMR 4166 to try and get rid of any difficult copper deposits. These powders aren't designed to do this but it seems to perform as a copper remover in other rifles I've tried it in.

This reminds me, getting the barrel warm to hot and then immediately clean seemed to pull junk out better than when cold. If nothing else, it helped kill time until the barrel of that gun as well as of others brought with cooled down.

Thanks for all the info. I will try the barrel full of hopper next. I am sure I have pitting also. Do you think all this crud? came from the powders and primers they used back in the day or just from lack of maintenance. Also, i havent shot for groups yet, have you got yours to shot decent

I've did similar in the past and had good results. Though I used nothing more aggressive than a bore brush. I'd also stay away from anything with ammonia in it. Best of luck.

Wipeout is a gamechanger... not only cleans the barrels but leaves a protective film on it. I thought my barrels were clean before I used this stuff.

There are a lot of effective bore cleaners on the market today. No longer any reason to put one's faith in "hoppers" (Hoppe's?) to perform as anything more than a casual powder fouling solvent (and there are even better solutions for that- give Ed's Red a shot).

Jeff, I'll debate you on the dangers of ammonia-based cleaners. Yes, if used imprudently (ie: by not rigorously following instructions) they might injure a bore, maybe. If used the way one should they are no more dangerous than anything else. You have to look long and hard to find a common chemical that attacks copper better than ammonia does. I started using Sweet's 7.62 solvent 30+ years ago and never had an issue, until I switched to Barne's CR-10 a couple years ago that has an even higher ammonia content and life got even better. Simple rule of thumb: just don't let the stuff in the bore more than 5-10 minutes at a time and life is good.

As an aside, I often wondered about the veracity of using bronze bore brushes to scrub copper fouling out of bores when using copper-attacking solvents. I guess others had the same thoughts regarding that counter-intuitive protocol, and so stainless steel brushes appeared on the market (no way, nope, not for me), and nylon bristle brushes (a fart in a wind storm). I persist in using nothing more aggressive than cotton flannel patches (unless I get a wayward streak of lead in a pistol or rifle barrel and then the bronze brush comes out, in conjunction with Ed's Red solvent).

Bore polishing pastes? Everyone forgets what the word polishing implies: the removal of molecular layers to expose fresh un-oxidized material, which means do it enough and the integrity of the structure's dimensions becomes compromised. A bore has to be pretty bad before I would resort to anything with abrasives in it no matter how fine those abrasives are. (And yes, I keep a vial of J-B Bore paste in my kit. Been there for maybe 30 years and is about 80% still full.)

Yeah, I've heard a lot of good stuff about that too. I bought a bottle but am waiting until my last bottle of CR-10 is used up before switching to it.

The thing is, the OP's barrel was made when mercuric primers were still common, and their replacements weren't a heckuva lot easier on barrel steel. The chances that his barrel's bore surface is compromised such that it acts like a rasp on the bullets that pass through it is pretty good. A barrel from those early years that's still pristine can be guaranteed not to have been shot much or else it had an anal-retentive owner who cleaned it thoroughly and properly, promptly after every time he shot it. That's pretty much why the first thing I always look at is the bore on a rifle from that era- it not only offers a clue about how well I may expect it to shoot, but also is strong evidence of how well the gun was maintained during its life.

Thanks for all the advice. I am going to try the soaking with hoppes for awhile then just load some ammo and see how it shoots. I don't think I will ever get it "clean" but hopefully I can get it suitable for close range deer hunting.

You could always try outers foul out system

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014811888/outers-foul-out-3-bore-cleaning-system

A couple points in no particular order.

The 1920 was not shot before the cleaning but it was a couple times during the process. It grouped poorly but that could easily be attributed to using factory 100 gr ammo or the Lyman Alaskan scope or maybe the Echo mounts were funky. The dot is pretty faded which probably doesn't help either. Tried the irons but the front is kind of fine for my eyes and I can't see it well enough when buried into the Vee. In any case, my best groups were around 4" at 25 yards. I have some 75 gr bullets loaded up and a different old scope set up, now I am just waiting for a chance to go to the range.

I use Hoppe's to remove carbon because I seem to get a lot of it for free. It is effective enough for my simple purposes and I have to do nothing more than open a jar and pour. Hoppe's odor is less objectionable to my wife and its flashpoint is much lower than Ed's Red which is an important factor when cleaning inside.

Wipe Out, Sweets, CR-10 all have a place on my cleaning shelf but there are times even they seem to be weak. It is then I break out a vial of 75% Kroil and 25% industrial strength ammonia for removing bad copper and carbon. When using copper cleaners, I use worn out brushes of the next higher diameter or maybe two. After that cleaning session the brushes get tossed. When that seemed to be less effective than I thought, out came the JB.

Not everyone forgot what polish means. It's the third time I used JB. I used it as it seemed the gunk in the barrel was hardened/slick/baked and the solvent and brushes were not having much affect. The JB did seem to break the crust as the patches looked pretty tarry again. Probably opened up some of the pitting but the barrel did seem cleaner, eventually.

Gary, I'll defer to you. You know more about this stuff (as well as many other things) than do I. Like many here, I am but a mere student in the classroom of your posts.

PS - I now have a new way to think about nylon brushes, "a fart in the wind." That about made the coffee come out of my nose as I read it. Thanks for the good chuckle!

I’m cornfused. At the top it says a 303. They were made to shoot 190 trainers. Now it says shooting 100 and 75 gr. Did we switch over to a 250-3000?

Reread and I see it’s two different posts.

As with most things in this man's world, there are always many ways to skin this particular cat.

As for the comment about bore paste, I should have clarified that it was directed at guys who use it vigorously and often.

As a last ditch effort (and I mean last ditch) one can always plug the chamber and fill the bore full of Stronger Ammonia, then plug the muzzle and let it sit for 1/2 hour, dump and flush the heck out of it with water, swab and oil. As I understand it ammonia itself won't attack steel when in an oxygen deprived environment (hence the plugging) but you don't want to waste any time getting it flushed out afterwards- someone correct me if I'm wrong. I actually did that trick once, on the advice of Phil Sharpe in one of his books. It worked marvelously to get rid of the cupro-nickel fouling in an old '03 Springfield barrel-- but OMG the scarey/humorous(in hindsight) effects on yours truly put me off of ever doing it again. There's a reason you can't buy Stronger Ammonia over the counter anymore...

That jogged something in my brain. I wonder now if the OP's fouling might be cupro-nickel instead of copper (gilding metal) and as such resisting the efforts to remove it. As old as the gun is, it surely got its start digesting cupro-nickel jacketed bullets (which remained in general use up until the 1920's). A "base layer" of that stuff present for nigh onto 100 years with subsequent deposits of copper fouling would indeed make for an unholy mess.

Gary, Do you recommend doing this indoors, say in the bathroom?

Well, that's where I did it! (And passed out cold.) So, yes, do it outdoors, with a respirator. Better yet, get volunteers from among the neighborhood kids.

One of the ways of darkening bamboo if your into fly rods made of such stuff is with ammonia vapor. It also darkens oak. But instructions on doing so always read with a sense caution that would be second only to what you would expect on the warning label for a canister of mustard gas..

I've cleaned some pretty nasty bores with Hoppes and a piece of Big 45 Frontier pad on a jag. Has done a good job for what I've thrown at it.

Thanks for all the replies, God only knows what's in this barrel, I've never even heard of cupro nickel and dont have a clue on how to remove it. I have some sweets and montana extreme also, do you guys thinks these products would be better than hoppes and i will use according to direction. Thanks

Sweets and Extreme would be beyond comparison better than Hoppe's on copper and about the same on carbon. I'll use Hoppe's to remove carbon deposits before going after copper fouling. I figure getting rid of the carbon fouling first allows the copper remover to contact the copper fouling better.

I'm not seeing any green on the patches, just black. Would you keep going with the hoppes for awhile or would you switch to the stronger stuff? Thanks

Jeez Louis, sounds like you need brake cleaner!

Might be the next thing I'll try

I know a lot of people use Break Free Spray and swear by it
What chemicals are in it I know not
Never tried it myself

Hmmm. Could it be that the fact there is no green/blue on the cleaning patch mean that the fouling is indeed cupro-nickel? (For those unfamiliar with that old bullet jacket material, google it, or just picture a soft alloy that outwardly looks like raw steel not like a copper penny.) This one of those instances I wish I could be looking over the OP's shoulder.

Old school here I guess. Have been using Hoppe’s No. 9 and BreakFree CLP for everything on my guns since around 1980. Don’t even pay attention to all of the new cleaners/scrubbers. Guns have never suffered and they smell pretty good.

"Guns have never suffered". Maybe, maybe not.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1001882

Read MColeman's responses.

I read about this stuff and it’s difficult for me to even picture it. Maybe I’ve been lucky all these years to have never bought a gun with these kind of issues. Or maybe it’s just that my ignorance is bliss.

Barrels are unique in how they react to being fouled.

I've owned barrels that didn't seem to mind a bit of copper fouling, in fact my 1953-vintage M70 '06 shoots better if it has a box or two's worth of jacketed fouling present. (I took it down to bare metal when I got it and was disappointed with its accuracy but noticed it shot better toward the end of that first range session. I took it home and cleaned the bore back down to bare metal again and the performance was repeated, so I said f-it and left it alone. The next time out, with the previous fouling intact, it shot better and better until instead of 2MOA+ groups I was getting 1/2-3/4MOA groups. Now I merely give it a swipe with Ed's Red to remove powder fouling and leave it alone until accuracy begins to fall off again.) Other rifles just wouldn't shoot worth a tinker's dam unless the barrels were kept squeaky clean. Go figure.

Of course, the easiest way to avoid copper buildup is to just use cast lead bullets. (You were waiting for that weren't you, Rory?! ) I have a couple tubes I've owned since new that have seen hundreds/thousands of cast bullets and not one jacketed. I have several tubes that I cleaned to bare metal when I bought them used and have only shot cast bullets in since. Do I get leading? Sometimes, but very rarely- 50 years of that nonsense and I've learned how to avoid that.

If it like my gun, the patches are coming out like black mud has been pressed into it. The crud is almost tarry in its consistency. If this is the case, I kept soaking with Hoppe's and scrubbing with a bronze brush. The brush seemed to loosen the crud up for a bit before the patches glossed things over again.

It may be cupro-nickel fouling but I have not seen such fouling with a bunch of 303 Brit rounds I fired. Of course I didn't wait years or decades to clean the bore either so my reference is not consistent with this gun. .

If anything I wonder if it could be lead fouling? There were lead gallery loads for the 30/30 way back when, I wonder if the 303 Savage had similar loads? I can imagine lead leaving deposits like those being described.

Gallery loads for the .303S were factory offerings in the early days. They were very soft plain based bullets, almost pure lead, driven by a pinch of pistol/shotgun powder, and shouldn't have leaded bores if used properly.** Properly cleaned bores intended for cast bullet shooting will be entirely free of jacketed fouling- that stuff serves to scour lead off of bullets as they squeeze past it. I shoot scads of loads like that which I make myself, in several rifles, and don't experience leading but those gun's bores were prepped accordingly beforehand.

If it's severely compacted leading in your bore, the bronze brush will pull flakes of lead out the barrel with it. Look closely and you'll see them. It's also likely you'll see tiny flecks of lead on the patches along with the black goop. My theory still leans toward cupro-nickel fouling. Heck, someone could've glommed onto a pile of old cupro-nickel jacketed ammo and shot it up in that gun shortly before you acquired it- the deed didn't necessarily have to have been done 100 years ago- and if the bore is/was a little rough it would sluice that soft jacket material off like a cheese grater damages a block of cheddar.

** It's counter intuitive but soft lead alloys leave less leading behind than really hard lead alloy bullets do, within proper velocity parameters.

It's not really germane to the conversation, but if anybody wants to know why, I'll explain.

Thanks for all the responses. I think I will just keep scrubbing with hoppes until I get fed up then shoot it and see how it does.
. I have a 1911 22hp with an odd stock that as soon as I figure out how to post pics I would like you guys to look at. Can't figure out what I bought.

cherryfarmer, there is an Images forum down below the Free Classifieds. Start a post there, and you can upload full sized pictures into your post.

When I get leading in my 1911 .45 barrel, I wrap a few strands of a "pure copper" chore boy (do not use the regular chore boy) on my brush and run it through a few times. Does a great job of removing the lead. It's a poor boy Lewis Lead Remover.

Thanks Calhoun and Keith for your suggestions, I'll try posting some pics of the savage Hi power soon and will also try the chore boy in my bore. You guys are a wealth of information and i appreciate it. I been around guns my whole life and started hunting deer with a different 22 up when i was 11 but i have been learning alot since I joined this forum.

Whoops damn auto correct, should read to be 22 high power

The worst barrels get this from me. I have had success. I saved a good friend’s 7mm Rem Mag from getting a new barrel. A can of brake fluid and a lot of scrubbing got accuracy back to very respectable levels.

During my tenure in the Browning Arms Co. gunsmithing shop I worked on many rifles sent in for accuracy complaints, standard procedure in the shop was to clean the bore with JB compound. The method employed was to take a one size smaller than bore size bronze brush and wrap a GI .30 cal. patch around it, the patch was liberally coated with JB compound and passed back and forth thru the bore. After the JB treatment the bore was cleaned with Hoppe's followed by dry patches. Nearly all rifles responded well to this protocall and would be capable of firing groups that met company accuracy standards.

Brake cleaner or brake fluid, Jeff?

I use "Brake Cleaner" to clean almost all things metal. It goes on sale at Advanced Auto for buy one/get one, all the time. I do spray actions with it, never tried a barrel. Keep it away from wood!

Brake cleaner, yikes I shutter to think what that stuff might do to a blued finish or the stock. I’ll stick to soaking for myself. And if one night isn’t good enough I’ll do two.

Regarding Gary’ first post, all I have to say is “I took a train once but they made me give it back.”

I don't buy dirty guns and I NEVER let my guns get to that point.

Some of the best buys of my life started out as dirty used guns that a little TLC revealed to be minty treasures. I for one won't let a little dirt scare me if I can see past the grime to what's underneath. It's usually grounds for effective dickering to secure a bargain.

There's something to be said for "seeing the diamond in the rough."

The gun that brought me to the Savage forum was a "dirty" 99EG in 250-3000 I bought off the internet. I didn't know much about Savages and their finish but that one looked like it was coated with something greenish and the photos were crappy, but the price was right and it wasn't at all beat up so I bought it.

Turns out it was preservative and the gun was mint unfired underneath all that.

Well I put some fine steel wool on a bore brush, soaked it in hoppes and ran it through the bore about 10 times. It definitely got most of the crud off the lands but the groves are still pretty bad. There is pitting throughout the barrel but the rifling is there also. Gonna let it sit awhile with hoppes in there and brush it again. It will never be a mirror bore but i figured I wasn't out much by trying. Thanks everyone fore all your help and wish me luck when i shoot it.