SV 30 can be a bugger to sharpen.

Are we making steel too hard - just to sell more knives?

all my ingrams are s30v and i use a lansky diamond set at 20� to sharpen them. i havent had any issues getting them spooky sharp.

I make a lot of knives out of S-30-V and it makes a super knife and hold an edge forever

I just used s30v for the first time a few weeks ago and was extremely pleased. The edge seemed to hold up better than previous steels.


ddj

Too hard? A cutting steel?

Nah.

S30V, as well as S35V sharpen well with the EdgePro. I have no issues with them. CPM 154 as well.

Anyone used the Spiderco sharpener with s30v?


ddj

No, we aren't making steel too hard. You just need a good sharpening system. If you aren't much good at sharpening there are systems out there, like the Lansky and Edge Pro, that take the finesse part out of it.

Any blade steel in the range of RC58 to RC62 is going to be very difficult to sharpen. This Rockwell range is just an example. The range can vary quite a bit up or down, depending on the steel.

To sharpen a knife, steel has to be abraded off to thin the edge. Any steel of the above hardness is going to have what is known as abrasive resistance. That is, it is not going to like being abraded and is going to resist any attempt to remove metal.

In addition to high Rockwell numbers, some steels resist abrasion differently than others. A few examples are D2, F2, S30V and most High Speed Steels.

In combination with high Rockwell numbers, the addition of high carbon and high Vandium will increase the abrasive resistance of a steel.

For example, a steel with 1.5% Carbon will be more abrasive resistant that a steel with 1.0% Carbon at the same hardness.

But, high hardness is what seperates great edge holding from so-so edge holding in a softer blade, although the high hardness does add in some brittleness.

What this means is that for good edge holding, you are going to have to have high Rockwell numbers and a sharpening system capable of abrading these hard steels.

A steel with .85% Carbon should be easier to sharpen than a steel of the same hardness witn 1.5% Carbon, but I cannot comment on what the difference in edge holding of the two would be, although I think the .85% Carbon blade would be more flexible.

Not true.

What really makes some knife steels a lot harder to sharpen is the tougher Carbides. ZDP-189 at RC 67 is easier to sharpen than S-30V at RC58 which is much easier to sharpen than S-90V at the same hardness. Some of the less complex steels without carbides sharpen like butter at RC58.

The other thing that makes knives hard to sharpen is less efficient sharpening tools. Steels that are very tough to sharpen on Arkansas stones aren't that difficult on good waterstones or other methods. Really good tools can make any job easier........................................DJ

Normal steel is pretty easy to sharpen, but some of the newer stuff is getting more difficult to sharpen period.

Now what I'm starting to wonder is if my case and buck knives of the old days are easy to sharpen and hold a edge a long long time how does making the steel harder help.

I guess it comes down to if you you really feel the Case and Buck knives of old hold a edge a really long time. I don't feel that they do.
A jig of some sort and a good series of diamond stones will sharpen the newer steels even for the inexperienced.
I very recently sharpened some D2 and S30V that was RC 60/61 very easily with an diamond stone Lansky set that is over 20 years old and very well used.

You are right that some of the newer more complex steels are harder to sharpen, especially without the right tools.

There are several different ways to make steel hold an edge longer. They all have tradeoffs. You can make the steel harder but that increases brittleness. You can add different carbides to the steel, this increases abrasion resistance without having to increase hardness but makes the steel harder to sharpen and the carbide molecules are bigger than the steel molecules so sometimes you don't get as fine an edge. You can also add Chromium for rust resistance but that can add other issues.

So basically all the different steels are different sets of comprimises. S-30V is a good overall balance of rust resistance, edge holding, and reasonable sharpenability. It will hold an edge longer as most older Carbon steel knives and won't rust near as quickly but it's a bit harder to sharpen. S-90V holds an edge longer than S-30V but at the expense of being even harder to sharpen.

If you have difficulty sharpening you might be better off with a Carbon steel knife or a slightly softer stainless like VG-10. The set of comprimises I prefer might just be different from the set of comprimises that work best for you...................................DJ

I don't object when someone disagrees with me, but I don't really care for someone to claim that a statement I make is "Not True" when it is obvious you do not have any idea what you are talking about.

Being knowledagable about something and telling someone what they say is 'not true' is one thing, but being totally ignorant of the subject and and claiming a statment is not true is another thing entirely.

After reading many of your post, I find it very difficult to believe that you have ever sharpened any knife, even a toy, plastic knife.

Granted, you might have some small experience with factory blades, but any knowledgable knifemaker will tell you that the very first place a commercial knifemaker will cut corners is in heat treating.

To claim that a piece of steel at Rc67 abrades quicker and easier than another steel at Rc58 is so far out in left field that it is hardly worth commenting on.

Statements like this is what I base my claim on that you have little or no experience sharpening or even using knives.

"Normal steel is pretty easy to sharpen, but some of the newer stuff is getting more difficult to sharpen period.

Now what I'm starting to wonder is if my case and buck knives of the old days are easy to sharpen and hold a edge a long long time how does making the steel harder help"

Spot Shooter
Its all relative and using words like "normal steel", "easy", "a long, long time", etc makes it hard to quantify results.

The chemistry, geometry and heat treat variations all effect the performance of a blade. And then you have the materials used and the skills of the sharpener that just adds more.

I personally quit using arkansas stones over 50 years ago when I discovered my Dad's toolmakers bench stones.

I really don't see a difference worth mentioning in sharpening 1095, 52100, A-2, 154CM and S30V with similar geometry and heat treatment (Rc and cryo). I use the same stones and process for all.
Nor have I experienced (in field use) a quantifiable edge holding variation with those steels as noted above.

A lab environment would be needed to really quantify the true variation in performance.
In the mean time we all have questions and unknowns and opinions.
Thats what makes it all fun.
Its kinda like pro football---On any given day....
JMHO
Tim

"A lab environment would be needed to really quantify the true variation in performance."

MRK, I think the lab environment would only tell us how that particular steel would work in that particular lab environment.

I don't think it would tell us much if we were elbow deep in a elk's innards in 0 degree weather, and with night only minutes away.

One thing that I know that will dull a knife very quick is using it for a scraper on something like a seasoned hickory axe handle.

You might test several different steels by scrapping axe handles to determine which would scrape the longest, but I don't know if this would be applicable to being elbow deep in the above mentioned elk.

The only way "elbow deep in an elk's innards" is going to give you a comparison is if you have all the variations you are testing on hand and use them equally. Oh yeah, guess that would be a "lab environment" field test.
Using one blade today and another next year doesn't quite make a reliable test for comparison of (as noted by the original poster) ---
normal vs newer stuff,
sharp for a long long time and
how does making the steel harder help.....

Just my 2 cents, which is only worth 1 cent now
Tim

1234567, What you need to do is go and hand sharpen a half dozen or so knives in S-30V and maybe a couple in S-90v and then go sharpen a few in ZDP-189, then we can talk. Until then you have no basis to factualy enter this discussion. Just actually try it and you'll find out for yourself what I'm talking about.............DJ

IMO there is no real reason not to take advantage of the better edge holding steels avaliable.


DMT diamond stones and learning to freehand sharpen are your friend.

True -

Also true is that guys who can't sharpen very well really have a hard time sharpening harder steel knives.

I just get more harder steel knives from my buddies now is all.

Diamonds make everything easy..............

"Until then you have no basis to factualy enter this discussion. Just actually try it and you'll find out for yourself what I'm talking about.............DJ"

Now, you are deciding for yourself who may and may not enter these discusions.

No, I don't need to find out for myself what you are talking about. I already know, but strange as it seems, you do not know what you are talking about, and what you are talking about are things that just do not exist.

I would say that you might have read some of the crap you spout, somewhere, but, although I read a lot, I have never read some of the nonsense you come up with. Maybe a fertile imigination?

I find it difficult to believe that you have ever sharpened or even used a knife, or even know which end to hold in your hand. The above comment is based on some of the weird claims you make about steel.

You just do not know anything about the properties of steel, nor of the various elements that go into making a piece of steel.

If you had even a small clue, you would not even consider writing some of the stuff you write.

1234567, on earlier threads you admitted that you had never sharpened or used a knife is S-30V, S-60V, S-90V, BG-42 or ZDP-189 steel. I'm just going by what you said about yourself.
I own and have used knives in all of those steels.

When you try to argue with me about these particular steels you simply have no basis for your opinions about something that you have ZERO experience with.

It's just silly for you to try and argue about something that you have NO experience with against someone who has a good deal of experience with.

You do have knife making experience, wheel sharpening experience with some steels that everyone here appreciates. You by your own admission just haven't tried some of the specific stuff we are talking about on this thread.....................DJ

DJ:

I really don't know what you know or don't know, nor do I care.

I do know that I posted an opinion and you said, "Not True."

I also know that I do not like to be called a liar, and when you make the statement, "Not True" about an opinion I make, that to me is calling me a liar. You have made similiar comments about other things I have posted. I do not appreciate that. If you realy knew and said 'Not True,' that would be different, but to not know up from down and say 'Not True,' is what I would call going overboard.

Disagree if you want to. I don't care. Many people do. Have a different opinion if you want to. Many people do.

I have asked you in the past to refrain from commenting on any of the posts that I make, whether you agree or disagree.

From what I have seen, it appears that you do not have a legimate reason for disagreeing with me, or telling me that something I say is "Not True," and that you are just doing it because of ignorance or some other reason. I am pretty sure I know what the other reason is, but I won't go into it here.

I will say that someone who claims that a steel at Rc67 with a carbon content of 3% (ZDP-189) is less abrasive resistant than a low carbon steel at a lower hardness is someone to be watched very closely and be wary of, and to look with suspicion on anything he says.

As far as the steels you mention, I have had a lot of experience with similiar steels, although perhaps not the exact ones you named.

You might not realize it, but there is really nothing new in steels and how they perform. Different elements are added in different amounts to change the properties of a steel for another use.

For example, spring steel would have a different composition than High Speed Steel, because the spring steel would be elastic and the high speed steel would need hot hardness properties and also much wear resistance. Therefore, it would be brittle, and would make a poor spring.

Contrary to what you might think, the new, so-called super steels, the ones used for cutlery, have different elements added to give the steel a property another, similiar steel might not have.

These steels are not super in any way. They have minor differences from other steels, but that does nothing to make them super, just different. And that difference might be improved rust resistance, improved wear resistance, and at the opposite end of wear resistance, more toughness.

What you do not seem to realize is that the more abrasive resistance as steel is, the less tough it is going to be. If it is abrasive resistant, is is going to resist being abraded by a sharpening stone, grinding wheel, grinding wheel, or dirt and sand that is on and in the skin and hair of a game animal.

And if it has high carbon and other elements, as the steels you named above, it's abrasive resistance is going to overshawdow it's toughness. What this means is that it is going to be more difficult to sharpen. On the plus side, it is not going to need sharpening as often as a tough steel, but you are not going to get toughness, abrasive resistance, and high Rc hardness in the same piece of steel, and regardless of how many times you tell me that it is "Not True," or that I don't know what I am talking about, is not going to change the properties of a particular steel alloy, whether is is a new, "Super Steel" just discovered yesterday, or a piece of steel that has been around for about 80 years, as D2 has.

I have and use a bunch of S30V blades and it is easily "super" in my book.

You couldn't run fast enough,to hand me D2 in it's place...........

Why in the world I went into such detail and bothered to explain all of this to you, I have no idea. I guess it is just another one of my failed attempts to educate the ignorant.

And, you can say all you want to about my exerience sharpening knives and using different steels. I know enough about it to know that there is no way you will ever convince me that you have ever sharpened or used one single knife. I just don't believe it. No one with any experience at all with knives would come up with the things you claim, and make the claim that what you are saying is factual.

Guessing is risky business...............

'Stick,

Four or five years ago, there were a lot of reports of S30V blades chipping..

Any ideas of why? Poor heat treat? Blade being used/abused inappropriately?

Are there any company's who today use S30V you'd stay away from, or do you think the problems are a thing of the past?

Regards,

Peter

I have no experience with S30V, but I have read that they might have chipped because of the Rc61 hardness most were hardened to.

I also read that dropping the hardness down to RC58-59 solved the problem, but as I said, I am only reporting what I read on one of the knife forums.

Everyone uses a blade differently and I reckon I'm "spoiled" in that I've long been good with one. I'm not much of a Hacker or Chopper on Critters and have long had a penchant for modest blades and using them with sense/skill. Them things is easily arranged,for those inclined.

I've never chipped an S30V blade by anyone,though I reckon I could as per whim,if so inclined.

I doubt I have many more than a couple dozen S30V blades and couldn't cuss any of them.................

I know I've better than a dozen at RC60................

Thanks for that, and I know what you mean...in a slightly different context, theres a U-tube video floating about of a guy taking the lower legs off a deer with branch loppers, and then switching to a saw to remove the head; makes me cringe everytime i see it!

I did wonder if the heat treat on the early blades was going a stray...Have not tried S30V yet, but will do, just because..
At present, I am happy with ATS-34 and VG-10, so I'm interested to see how s30V compares...

And although Stick will brand be a heretic, my favourite knife has a 440C blade...I know its not fashionalable any more, but truth is it grallochs two three deer fine and with a couple of licks on the sharpener and its hair shaving sharp again...

Other knives in ATS-34 and VG-10 stay sharp longer, but that little 440C blade does just fine for what I use it for..

What people seem to miss on the hard to sharpen knives is that they keep their edge so much longer, which is exactly why they are hard to sharpen. I'd much rather have a tougher steel that is harder to sharpen than a softer steel that has to be sharpened all the time.

The "super" steels can't be heat treated over a coal forge by the light of the moon and quenched into the smiths mystery goop to be properly hardened. But with a properly controlled heat treat process, they are the best we've ever had.

I'll never savvy why folks think they have to move bevels,to restore an edge.

Returning good steel,to a wicked edge,is a modest undertaking...as a worst case scenario................

I don't do dirt or hair on my meat and am often looking to turn lips/ears/eyes...all with the same blade.

I've seen some impressive displays in the flesh,on how NOT to use a blade and how NOT to work an animal up. Which is why more often than not,I'm the one driving the blade................

I'm generally wearing a Gene crafted 440C Necker in Kydex,when streamside...which accounts for alotta miles/hours in a year's time...........

Ummm,
Where, in your logic, are you considering that the chosen steel (and its molecular make up) and the level of Rc hardness is completely under the control of the maker?

Yes, there are many different steel compositions. Choosing the one that matches the intended use is only the first step. The next is to determine at what Rc that chosen steel performs best with that maker's grind geometry and choice of edge. And performance has multiple parameters, with abrasion resistance, edge holding and flexibility being but a couple of them.

Gosh, seems rather foolish to attempt an argument that there is no "super steel" or to even comment on S30V without S30V experience.

I will give you credit for being honest.

The problem is what you have read about, others have done..........................dj

For me there's a big difference between saying something is "Not True" and calling someone a liar. When I say something is not true I'm commenting that something is incorrect or misinformed. A lie is something where someone knows the truth and is saying something contrary to the truth. In this case you just haven't tried the things you are trying to coment about and don't know the truth one way or another, to me that's different from lying. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but you've made several comments that just aren't right and I've corrected them. In general people are better off sticking to talking about what they've done rather than what they've just read about.

In your original post you said that "any steel RC 58-62 is going to be very difficult to sharpen". This just isn't true. I've a number of knives and tools in this range made out of less complex steels that sharpen very "sweet" and easy.

I also commented that ZDP-189 at RC-67 is a lot easier to sharpen than S-90V at RC59 so high rockwell hardness isn't the only thing that makes a knife hard to sharpen. Anybody whose sharpened both will agree. Try them for yourself and you'll see what I mean, until you do there really isn't much to be gained by arguing facts vs your conjectures based on what you've read...................................................DJ

"When I say something is not true I'm commenting that something is incorrect or misinformed."

That is the whole problem. You don't know if I am incorrect or misinformed. Putting it simple, you do not have the knowledge to say whether or not what I say is factual.

I have never made a statement based on what I have read or heard, and that I have had no experience with, without saying that I do not know this from personal experience. If you are saying that I have said anything like that, then it is not true, and you know my take on 'Not True.'

I do not remember everything I have written. I don't have to. That is the one good thing about being truthful, you don't have to remember everything you say.

Yes, I have read about things that others have done. I guess all of us have, unless we know everything and have done everything, which I have not.

"For WTM45:

Ummm,
Where, in your logic, are you considering that the chosen steel (and its molecular make up) and the level of Rc hardness is completely under the control of the maker?"

I can't explain it for everymaker, but when I first started making knives, I read everything I could about steel. All types of steel, not just knife steels. I decided to use what the best known makers were using. I had to start somewhere, because I did not have a metelorgy lab and sofisticated test equipment. The best know knife maker at the time was Bob Loveless, and I choose 154 CM steel, simply because I trusted his knowledge. Other makers used different steel, such as 01, D2, D4, 440C, and blade forgers used steels different from those. Since I was not going to forge, I choose 154 CM because of what I read about Bob Loveless and what he wrote. I have also used ATS 34, and some other steels as well, but for my purposes, I think 154 CM is best, although I would like to try a few blades from CPM 154 CM or BG 42, but because of health reasons, I might not be able to.

The heat treating is under the control of the maker in that the maker can choose who does the heat treating. I choose Paul Bos, considered the world's best knife blade heat treater. So, by choosing a certain steel and the heat treater, and telling the heat treater to heat treat to the hardness that is requested my other knifemakers he does work for, I do have a lot of control of the material I use, and also the hardness and who does the heat treating.

When you buy a factory knife, you do not have this control. You don't even know for sure the type of steel, nor the hardness. I think that is one problem with DJ--he is claiming to sharpen blades that he doesn't know the hardness, nor the makeup of the steel. He might be sharpening knives that would test Rc20 and someone told him that they were Rc60, so he is all of a sudden an expert on how easy a blade will sharpen at RC 60, when he has never even seen an RC60 blade. He only thinks he has.

Same for the type steel. He might think he is sharpening S30V at Rc 61 when it is really 440A at Rc20. So yes, naturally, he would think S30V at Rc60 is easy to sharpen, because someone told him it was S30V and he doesn't know the difference.

You mention molecular makeup. Steels do not have molecules. Steel is a mixture of different elements added to give the steel certain properties. These elements mix; they do not combine. Only elements that combine have molecules, so you really do not have any understanding on how steel works.

"Gosh, seems rather foolish to attempt an argument that there is no "super steel" or to even comment on S30V without S30V experience."

I can understand how you, alone, would think it foolish to comment on S30V without S30V experience. I don't have experience with S30V, but I do have experience with steel containing 1.5% Carbon and a high amount of Vaniduim, which is similiar to S30V.

And if you think two steels with similiar element content will not perform the same or nearly so, then it is not me who is foolish.

I do not have to have S30V experience to know that a steel containing 1.5% Carbon is going to be very abrasive resistant, and abrasive resistance, along with Rc hardness in the 60s is one of the things that make a steel abrasive resistant.

The problem with you and DJ is that neither one of you have any knowledge or understanding of what makes a steel either tough or wear resistant, and the two are at opposite ends of the scale. A tough steel is going to have low abrasive resistance. A wear resistant steel is going to have low toughness. The two are not compatable.

123456789, Dude you are really talking yourself into a foolish corner you might want to stop why you are ahead.

When you have a Chris Reeves knife that the card says is S-30V at 58-59RC you can be darned sure that's exactly what you are getting. I've also sharpened a number of knives that Paul Bos did the heat treat on and you can be darn sure they are right at the hardness they are advertised to be, just like you can most of the knives from the higher end makers.

And before you completely stick your foot up your backside you might as well know that I have acess to a Rockwell tester and have actually TESTED the RC hardness of some of the knives I've mentioned here. Your comments above are foolishly absurd.

Once again try both for yourself, you'll find out the truth..............................................DJ

I stand corrected on my incorrect usage of the word "molecular."
It should have read "elemental."
But then, much written work on steel has made the same error.

Physics was a class I slept through more than a few moons ago.

Just as a person who "buys" their blades from factory production, a maker is subject to the steel provided and the heat treat provided as being what they ordered.

I like dealing with makers who know their steels and its origins/quality, and who do their own heat treat and testing.
The ones I trust have never led me wrong.
And they sing the praises of S30V.
Does not mean I'll throw away my ATS34 , 440C or 154CM.

correctly sharpened I've had a SV30 go through 4 deer an elk and a lope without needing any touchup.

That basically requires polishing the edge.

I need to give my buddy my old lansky system so he can start learning how to sharpen well.

Particle metallurgy is proving those two features are not mutually exclusive.

I like the stuff. Seems to hold an edge longer and I really haven't had all that much trouble sharpening. YMMV.

I'll letcha' in on a little "secret". A coupla licks through an itty-bitty Smith ceramic crockstick,will get things so sharp it'll cut your eyes,if you look at the edge.

Hint..................(grin)

Not much of a secret - got two crocks already.

But if your using a 1000 grit stone, and then hit the edge with 2000+ 6000 grit like I do you completely remove the burr and it's razor sharp so a ceramic at that point doesn't help.

Ceramics help "un-roll" the edge..

Itty-bitty crocks pack nicely and travel everywhere,less concession.

As well as being light,quiet and unobtrusive................

yep, got a kit in my backpack just in case.

Got 'em in my boats,trucks,packs,fishing vests...etc............

"And they sing the praises of S30V."

To try and clarify something. I have never used or made a knife from S30V. As far as I know, I have never seen one. However, I have never said that it is not a good steel. From what I have read about it, it appears to be one of the better knife steels.

What I will say is that any steel in the hardness range of Rc58 to Rc61 is going to be more difficult to sharpen than a softer steel. The Rockwell hardness gives any steel at this hardness a lot of wear resistance, even a steel designed to be flexable, such as L6 used in saw blades.

Elements, such as 1.5% carbon and more, up to maybe 3%, Vanidium, tungsten, Moly, Chrome, and other elements are going to make this hard steel even more wear resistant. This means, in some instances that the knife is going to stay sharp longer. When it gets dull, it also is going to mean that it is going to resist wear, or abrasion on a stone. Common sense will tell you that, but some cannot seem to understand that. To claim that Miracle steel ABC 225, with 2.5% Carbon and 10% Vanidium is going to abrade easier as another steel at the same hardness but with .80% carbon is beyond belief.

D2 is a die steel. It has elements in it to make it wear resistant so that the dies last longer. That is what these S series steels have in common with D2; High carbon and high wear restence.

That is not saying that a lot of wear resistance is bad--look at Tungston Carbide or Silicon Carbide. It is saying that the steel is going to be more difficult to abrade. Is that so difficult to understand?

At one time, I wanted to make some blades from S30V, but now, after reading about and comparing the two, I think I would prefer CPM 154CM, but the potential for greater wear resistance of the S30V is not why I would choose CPM 154 CM instead There is another reason.

About sharpening. When most knife uses purchase a knife, it has already been sharpened. It might not be sharp enough, so you hone it a bit more. When it gets dull, you re-sharpen, but usually not more than .001", or maybe even .0001" of steel is removed to restore the edge. On my lathe bits, when I want a very clean cut, I first sharpen them on with a grinder, then finish with a fine abrasive stone. This is very wear resistant High Speed Steel I am talking about. It will abrade to a polished cutting edge, but it takes more than rubbing it across the palm of your hand.

Back to knives. When a knifemaker makes a blade, and after doing all the grinding and polishing, the edge is fairly blunt.

The one I have before me, before sharpening, measures .030" and is as dull as a marble. That means that I am going to have to take .015" off of each side, 15 times (est.) as much steel as is necessary to re-sharpen a blade that has gotten dull.

So to say that I have no or very little experience sharpening blades and using a whet stone is not exactly true.

And removing that .015" with a whet stone from each side of the edge gives one a lot of time to contemplate just how wear resistant piece of steel at Rc61 can be. A diamond hone is faster but removing .015" of steel by hand with anything is not something that can be done in minutes.

DJ, blunt the edge of one of your S30V blades, or any other, to a thickness of .030" and hone it back down to a razor edge, removing enough metal to get an edge angle of about 15 degrees, then tell me again about all you know about abrasive resistance and how easy some steels re-sharpen.

And after you have told me all you know about wear resistance and sharpening, if you try to sell me a bridge across the Hudson River, I am going to avoid you like the plague.

You tell me to try it for myself. I have, many times, otherwise I would not know what I am talking about, one of the few things you seem to know a lot about.

Something else. I don't make the initial sharpening with a bench stone anymore. I doubt if any of the factories or any other knifemakeres do, either. It just takes too long with these abrasive resistant steels. To establish the edge by hand would take longer that making the knife.

I'm impressed. You just might be dumber than DJ................

OK. What is it?

I [bleep] up the very first knife I got from Gene. I had been flailing away for years with my Schrades and occasional Buck, then I got one of Gene's S30V drop points (I think it's a #1 DP).

Anyway, I went through a hog and 3 deer with it, and was freaking amazed how sharp it was. When I ran my thumb along the blade, I realized I had micro chips on the edge (still sharp as hell). I removed a few jawbones with the knife, and did it carelessly. I know how to do that simple operation now without even using a knife, and in 1/4 the time.

Anyway, I told Gene what happened and he was very understanding. I sent the knife to him, and he took the chips out, as good as new.

Since that episode in stupidity, I have learned to cut from inside the the hide , especially on those nasty mud caked hogs with that wiry hair.

Figured out that technique is 50% of the equation, and a good blade is the other half. I didn't know what I was missing.

"To establish the edge by hand would take longer that making the knife."

Really!
I can take a .020"-.025" edge to .000" in about 2-3 minutes BY HAND with my coarse bench stone.

I no longer do it this way, as I now do the initial hogging off with a 1" belt sander and a sharp 120 grit belt (about 30 seconds without getting it too hot).
Then I go to a medium grit bench stone for about 1-2 minutes.
Then I go to a fine grit bench stone for about 1-2 minutes.
Then to an extra fine stone for 30 seconds.
Then to leather stoop treated with semi-chrome for 30 seconds.
Then shave hair off my arm.

I use Norton Stones that are 11" long. I have never learned to like diamond impregnated stones, but that is just my experience.

Wish I could make a knife that quick.

Needless to say touching up an edge after that is only a couple minutes at most.

Just my own personaly experience done with 52100, 1095, A-2,D-2, 440C, 154CM, CPM 154CM, ATS134, S30V, CPM S35VN blades. All at 58-59 Rc.

The Edge Pro does a higher quality sharpening job than I do by hand held (as I learned when I borrowed one from Boise) but I have yet to get one for myself. I does take a little longer too, like double or triple my by hand method.

You can make most any steel too hard or too soft (a relative measure), but the individual will have his own personal preference that will not be shared by all.

JMHO
Tim

There is a way to do it even faster than that. After the 120 grit
belt, go directly to a paper wheel and green rouge, then shave with it.

The 120 grit belt is too course. You can use it, but go to a 220 grit belt afterwards. I start with the 220 grit belt and go directly to the paper wheel.

To prevent it from getting hot, make a pass, then dunk it. Make another pass, and dunk it. Keep it cool. Never, ever let it get so hot that you cannot hold it with your bare fingers.

320, then 600, then 1000, then 2000 polish tape, then 6000 tape

Gets me a mirror shine and razor sharp edge with no bur

I am not a fan of a mirror finish. But that is just me.

I wasn't until I tried it, it really helps retain the edge.

I haven't had a problem holding an edge. Well I take that back I have a knife michiganroadkill made for me and I'll be damn I had to touch it up after 6 critters. I would sell it but it is my second favorite knife so I guess I am going to have to live with it.

cool

I have made several hundred knives from 154 CM, and never saw any reason to change, because it performed as well as any steel could be expected to. I did have it professionally and correctly heat treated, and cyro quenched, so that had a lot to do with how it performed.

I have read, but do not know this for a fact, (are you listening DJ?) that the CPM version has better toughness, works easier, will take a sharper edge, and takes a higher polish.

If this is true, and CPM 154 CM is that much of an improvment over 154 CM, then I don't see any reason for trying to find a better steel, even if there is one.

The 154 CM worked great, and if the CPM is better, then that is all to the good. I don't see any point in using 5 or 10 different steels to make knives. My practice was to find one good steel and to stick with it.

Some of the people who bought my knives would go deer hunting and at night around the campfire, would get to drinking and do crazy stuff.

One of those was doing something called locking blades. Holding the edges togather and and pulling the two knives down their edges. From what some of them told me, my 154 blades would usually cut gaps and chips out of the other knives, although I don't know what kind the other knives were.

I knew some of them fairly well, and I don't doubt for a minute that they did stuff like this. Some of them acted sort of weird even when they were sober. I never participated in any of these campfire drinking adventures.

I do know that I got several back to re-sharpen, but I never had one returned that the edge was chipped or damaged, or even very dull.

Seems odd that someone would pay $100.00 or more for a knife and do something like this with it.

Guess that is as good a reason as any. More than one maker has completed a successful career with one steel.
S30V would be the place for a new maker to start theirs today.

There are other good steels, probably many just as good as 154 CM. 154 was just my choice.

If I didn't prefer a stainless, I think I would have used either 01 or L6.

I didn't mention it above, but from what little I know about meteralogy and the research I have done, I think using any steel with above about 1.1 to 1.2% carbon is a mistake for cutlery.

Hardness and wear resistance are usually optimal characteristics for those who know what a knife is to be used for, and what a knife is not used for.
Higher carbon gives it.
And that is never a mistake.

I can understand when one is making blades for the unwashed masses. They often do stupid chit with their gear.

MontanaCreekHunter
And your number one favorite is what and with what steel???
Tim

1234567

How are your knives marked?

154 CM is a good steel. There are several that are better......................DJ

Talking strickly working knives,Phill Hartsfield I don't remember the name of the model. I will post a picture of it tomorrow. Oh yeah A1 steel. It is a high maintenance blade but I have never owned another knife that could out do it.

I would be interested in hearing your opinion as to which steels are better than the 154CM. Thank you.

22WRF:

My knives are marked with a stamp using my last name. I don't want to put it on here. Boise knows it, and if you are really interested, I can send a PM.

Another little hint--I wouldn't put too much confidence in what DJ tells you is better than 154 CM. I mean, I would't sell all my other knives and rush out and spend all my money on knives made from a steel he thinks is best.

I value the opinions of Bob Loveless and Steve Johnson and others at the top of the field when it comes to selecting a blade steel.

I hear ya, MRK built me a pair out of S30V and I did up a Utah bison last week with the B&T and that POS wouldn't shave hair after I was done. Pulled it back out of the trash because the handle was so pretty.

MRK sorry it took me so long to post. Here is the Hartsfield. and I will post a pix of yours in a minute too.

Yeah he needs to work on that edge stuff! LOL But should you decide to throw it out again I will give you my address you can send it to me. Scrape steel prices are good right now. :)'

MontanaCreekHunter
That is a cool looking knife.
What is the blade thickness, not much of a cutting edge bevel? Looks a little short too, but there are times when that is a good thing too.
Steel forged or stock removal?
Tim

MRK I don't remember if this was the first or second one. I am thinking this is the first. The other one is up at my camp in Maine so I couldn't get a picture of it up here. I don't remember what you used D2 maybe? Scales are Africain Black wood.

Over all lenght is 7-1/2" blade is 3-1/4" 1/8" stock 1/4" scandi sorta edge. Stock removal. Added this in the edit. The width of the blade measured half the lenght of the blade is 1-1/2" wide

MCH--that blade is out of 154CM.

Boise--I thought we had an agreement--Let me know first of any problems. Real sorry a "bird and trout" barely handled a buffalo. Grinning here.
I have done some work with the S30V blades, but not to that extent. Elk are much less demanding than buffalo I am sure and I did most of the quartering and boning with a pos 154CM blade and let the S30V blades do the final processing. Everything worked great, but not enough of a test to compare steels and make any profound conclusions.
jmho
Tim

MRK,
Yes that is right 154CM, sorry for the bad memory I have. Both those blades have worked out very well for me. They hold a very nice edge for a long time. I have lost count on animals now. I did a few of Marten, Coyote, and Bobcat with the one that is up at the camp last year. This year a few Black Bears, and two deer. The one I have here at the house has gone thru 6 deer, a dozen Coyote, 1 Turkey, 3 Red Fox, and somewhere around 30 ducks. I would say you did a fine job my friend.

I have a little bit of trouble with this statement. It seems to me that if you are confident of your knives and your knowledge of knifemaking you would be more than happy to advise everyone who you are, and especially so if you are going to publicly state that someone else doesn't know what they are talking about.

I think the best way for a person to decide whether another person knows what they are talking about is to check the work oneself in order to have an informed opinion.

The reason I asked for your mark is so that if I run across one of your knives I will know you made it and then I can see for myself what I think of your knives.

In the final analysis, for the knife user, one's own experience as to how the knife performs or sharpens for them is the most important opinion there is.

"I have a little bit of trouble with this statement. It seems to me that if you are confident of your knives and your knowledge of knifemaking you would be more than happy to advise everyone who you are, and especially so if you are going to publicly state that someone else doesn't know what they are talking about."

I am not going to put my name on a public forum. Unfortunately, there are some real dips*** on this forum and I don't want them to know my name. I notice you don't use your name, either. I told you I would send a PM, if you really want to know.

W.D. Randall purchased one of my knives. Other knifemakers have purchased them. A former president of the Knife Makers guild examined one of my knives, after I asked him about joining the Guild. He said, "Anyone who can make a knife of this quality, I would gladly recommend him for membership in the guild."

I could, but I won't, name some Guild members who purchased knives from me, and some of them have come back for seconds and thirds.

I publicly stated that the person didn't know what he was talking because on several occasions he has said that comments I have made were stupid and not true. That is in direct contradiction to comments I have heard (see above comments on owners of my knives)others make, who I know for certain know what they are talking about, because they are knifemakers also.

I realize this is not a school playground, but he made the first stupid and not true and other comments. He is still doing it, and I have no use for people who do things like that. Had he kept his incorrect and uninformed opinions to himself, then I would have, too.

Whose word for whether or not I can do it and know what I am talking about should I take, W.D. Randall's or a former president of the Guild and/or other guild members, or his? For those reasons, I am very confident of my knife making ability and my knowledge of knifemaking.

As far as my name, when I was active in knifemaking, there was a maker in Florida with the same name as mine and he marked his knives the same way I did. I talked to him. People contacted him asking if he made such and such a knife, which I had made, and people contacted me asking if I made a knife that had his name on it and he ahd made. Although he made quality and high dollar knives, I never had a problem referring the questioner to him, nor did I have good reason to claim his work for mine, as I also made quality and high dollar knives.

{"I notice you don't use your name, either."}

I am not claiming to be an expert on something.

I am not saying that you don't know what you are talking about concerning your own experiences. There is no reason to doubt that you know some famous knifemakers, etc.

What I am saying is that your own experiences do not disprove someone elses experiences. In other words, just becasue one knifemaker used one type of steel does not prove that another type of steel is inferior, or sharpens better or worse, etc.

It seems to me that DJPaintless was reporting his experiences.
There doesn't seem to be any reason why he would lie about what he has experienced. And so I think it was pretty bad taste to publicly put him down the way you have. And especially to do so claiming that you are someone who is an expert in the field but does not want to say who you are.

Are you a troll or something worse?

What difference does it make to you or anyone else what I know or think or think I know? I know enough to know that I can tell the difference when someone is peeing on my leg and telling me it is raining.

Believe me. Believe DJ. Believe neither of us. Who cares?

The experiences I have quoted as mine are not mine alone by any means.

MCH
You better slow down. That sounds like a real overload you are putting on yourself and that knife that you inspired.
Sounds like the 154CM is working out slightly better than the 440C prototype predecessor to that hard working pair.
You might consider giving a go to the "bnt" out of S30V. Then you can really work up a lot of game.
Gotta love this web site. Not much else to grin about from MI.

Thanks
Tim

No, I am not a troll. I am a person who is interested in knife steels. Which is why I read this thread. And it appears to me that you do not know the difference between someone peeing on your head and rain. But then, as you say, who cares.

MRK,

This was a slow hunting year for me. I actually took my friends son out more then I actually hunted this year. He got his first deer, turkey, and coyote with a bow this season. I am not one to sling sad stories but his dad was killed overseas two years ago. It has been very very hard on him. I can never replace his dad but I try to always be there for him. So this hunting season was pretty much all about him. Next year he will be of age that he can hunt alone. Though I am sure will be in the woods a lot again together.

MCH
If you want to get a special knife for that young man, lets work something quite equitable out. Was his father in the service?
You are to be commended for your selfless giving of time. I am sure that your rewards are really huge too when his eyes light up from another great experience.
I really miss all the good times with my son--who is now 1300 miles away and has little opportunity for us to do things together.
I think I still have some of that African Blackwood.
Another Montana Creek Hunter or one of those bnts,or whatever you think would be doable.
I would try to make sure the steel wasn't "too hard".

Guess we kinda highjacked this thread. I apologize to the O.P.
Tim

Yes his dad was in the Marine Corps. I didn't know his dad, he and his mom moved to the neighborhood a year ago. He sorta latched on to my dog and just hung around all the time. I had just got home from hunting one night after getting a deer and he wanted to know all about it. So he helped me butcher it and package it. I ask his mom if he could go out hunting one day and she said sure. He hasn't looked back since. Yes if you make a S30V BnT I would buy it from you for him. If you want I can sharpen it for you!!!!!!! I wouldn't want you to cut a hair. LOL

Of course it has to be harder then hard or it just won't work.

As I posted before IMO 154CM is a GOOD steel as is it's Japanese version ATS-34. Why anyone would suggest throwing away Good knives with good steel is just silly.

Also as I mentioned there are steels that offer what many people feel are better performance characteristics than 154CM/ATS-34. That's why people like Bob Loveless who you mentioned as well as Chris Reeves and dozens of other top makers moved on from 154CM/ATS-34 to better steels like BG-42, S-30V etc.. A lot of people will argue that ANY stainless steel isn't as good as Carbon Steels and they have a few good arguements.

In the end I'd much rather have a well made knife in a good pattern in average steel than a knife of super-duper wonder stuff that didn't fit my hand.

1234567, I understand that you have a real problem with being corrected. You've made a lot of good suggestion in the knife forum but you've also made some psuedo-factual comments that are simply incorrect. You can either do some further research and learn for yourself or you can sit back and try to say that the person who corrected you doesn't know what he's talking about. Just understand that there's a big difference between saying I read about this and the person who's correcting me doesn't know what he's talking about even though he's worked with dozens of examples.

IMO it would be a lot more interesting to discuss WHY we prefer one steel over another rather than whether or not one opinion or another is valid or not............................DJ

FWIW, this seems to be what 1234567 was upset about:




Soon after we get wonderful stuff like:




What I find kinda funny is that on another later thread 1234567 says the exact thing I was bringing up on this thread! :




Maybe he's learning something after all ...................dj

Interesting Chart:




Note that just because the bars are taller doesn't necessarily mean that one steel is better than another for all usages. There are performance tradeoffs. S-90V for example is a very high performance steel but many find it more difficult to sharpen than they prefer. S-30V may have longer edge holding and greater toughness than 154CM but it's much harder to polish to a mirror finish.

So which steel is "Best" depends on what characteristics are most important to you........................DJ

I have never tried to claim one steel is better than another. I know it depends on what you want. Some people want stainless above all else. I don't. I want edge holding, and if it sharpends easily, then that is another step in the right direction.

For me, 154 CM is what I want, although it is sort of stainless. Because of the 4% Moly, it has fairly good hot hardness, up to about 800-900 degrees F, but hot hardness is not necessary in a cutlery steel, but the Moly, besides giving it hot hardness, adds to it's good properties as a blade steel, so you can't have one without the other.

Your chart goes further explains what I have been trying to tell you. Abrasive resistance is wear resistance. To sharpen a blade, you abrade it. Looking at the chart, S30V is more abrasive resistant than either D2 or 154CM.

What does that tell you? It tells me than it would take longer to restore the edge on an S30V blade.

I have never used S30V, but I have used D2, and even steel manufacturers will tell you that it is one of the most wear resistant steels in existence. That is why it is used as a die steel. That and because it is air hardening, meaning that it will harden all the way through, with little or no warpage.

I have used both D2, ATS 34, and 154 CM, and the chart shows D2 as having the same wear resistance as 154CM. Having used both, there is no possible way I will believe that 154 CM is as wear resistant as D2. I think the chart is incorrect in that respect.

Just looking at the chart, it would appear, for the best combination of toughness and wear resistance, that CPM 3V would be close to ideal for a blade steel.

From the quotes you made about my comments listed above, I don't know how well you read and comprehend, but the meaning you seem to have for what I said is nowhere near the meaning and intent of what I originally stated. Hardness plays a large part in wear resistance, and so does high carbon and vanidium.

You can preach it until you are blue in the face, but there is no way you are going to convince me that a high carbon, high vandium and high hardness blade is less wear resistant than a lower carbon, lower hardness steel, with little or no vanadium in it.

Vanadium carbides are one of the most abrasive resistant substances in a piece of steel, and both CPM S30V and ZDP-189 have a lot of it, in addition to chromium carbides, which are not as hard as vanidium carbides.

If you would read up on and study steel makeup, you would understand what makes a steel either tough or wear resistant, and I would not have to explain it to you. I don't know if you have a mental block when it comes to me, or some other reason, but you seem to want to disagree, regardless of whether you have researhed it or not or tried to understand.

Any meterologist or knowledgable knifemaker knows these basic facts about steel. I can't understand why it eludes you, nor can I understand why you want to be so argumentative.

I have tried to explain it to you, but it looks like a lost cause.

The hot hardness of 154 CM does come in handy. I usually carry at least 2 and sometimes 3 154 CM blades with me when I go hunting. While field dressing a deer, if one gets red hot, I can lay it down and use one of the others while it cools. This is just to save time. The 900 degrees does not ruin the temper of the 154 CM blade and it is just as sharp after it cools as before. By using two or three knives, I just don't have to stand around while one cools off.

The original poster asked what I believe is a reasonable question and I have tried to answer to the best of my knowledge.

I don't know how it happened, but it seems this thread has turned into a s***storm through no fault of the original poster.

Any more posts where someone disagrees with me or thinks that I don't know what I am talking about, how about starting a new thread and leave the sarcastic comments to me and about me on that thread.

I think it is rude and disrespectful to take over someone else's thread, when all that person wanted was pertenent information. I notice he has not been back since his first post, and I can't say as I blame him.

It's rude to talk out your azz,about things you've never seen,let alone used.

Hint..................

What, you don't believe someone can get a knife blade red hot while field dressing a game animal?

You have to work fast, but it can be done.

I'm fairly new here and in no way trying to instigate anything. I'm not a hunter but a knife enthusiast. I'm curious about two things:

1. Were you joking when you made this statement?
2. If not, can you explain to me how it happens? To the best of my knowledge, steel (10xx series) does not begin turning shades of red (brown red) til it reaches 1,100 degrees and reaches bright (cherry red) at 1,500 degrees.

Guessing is risky business,as you so eloquently quantify..............

It were a TIC reply,to sweep some of his stupidity underneath a rug.............

I am not sure, but fairly certain that the bar chart shown above does not have zero for a base line.

If it were so and you could see the total column heights and relationships to each other, you would be telling yourself that there ain't much difference.

I could be wrong and if someone can find this chart with actual graduations and the upright axis starting at zero, I would eat crow --if necessary.

I am going from memory of perusing (sp?) this sort of data before.

I did apologize above for veering from the OP.
"Guess we kinda highjacked this thread. I apologize to the O.P."

Tim

"1. Were you joking when you made this statement?"

Yes, I was joking. I don't have any idea at what temperature a steel changes color. I do know that 154 CM is tempered at about 800-900 degrees. That is why I chose that temperature.

You boys ain't afeared to fret fluff,I'll give you that..............

MRK:

It is a Comparagraph. I don't know if a comparagraph has a base line. With toughness and wear resistance charts, it usually runs 1 for least wear resistance up to 10 for most wear resistance. There is no definate number for the rating, although I have found a few places where the steel manufacturer did abrasive tests by abrading the surface for a length of time, then measureing the amount of steel abraded. That is how they came by this chart. They might or might not compare all steels at the same hardness. It might depend on what the steel will be used for, and the hardness of the tool.

T15 High speed steel and some of the Cobolt steels are the most wear resistant and would rate a 10. However, if a steel is rated at 9, which D2 is, there is no way to tell from the chart how much more T15 is wear resistant, or how much less D2 is wear resistant. Steels such as 01 are, I think, about a 3. The scales for toughness are just the opposite, putting 01 at about a 7 for toughness.

It is something like a MOH scale to measure minerals, with Diamond the hardest. But, with a number, and I think diamond is 10, you really would not know how much harder a mineral that tested 7 would be, or how much harder the diamond would be than the mineral that tested 7. You really would not know how hard a diamond was, other than it is very hard.

The information I have posted about wear resistance is information I got from steel manufacturers data sheets, and some books about meteloroulogy that I have. I haven't given any figures. None of it is guessing. It is factual. The scales on the graph just indicate that a certain steel is more wear resistant than another. If you want to put numbers, you could put a 9 at D2, but the CPM 10 V would also be a 9. According to the graph, CPM10V is more wear resistant than D2, but the only way you would know how much was to grind each under a certain amount of pressure for a certain length of time and measure how much metal is removed.

No, it is up to you if you want to believe whether or not the stuff I post are factual, that and the data sheets.

I don't know how some people came to the conclusion that I did not like certain steels, or that some were better than others. I never said that. I did inply that some steels are different from others, but it is up to the knifemaker and owner to determine which steel suits his purpose.

Actually, I guess I did say that some steel is better than others. If you want a stainless, then stainless is better than non stainless, if stainless is your only criteria.

When you hear treat, do you use stainless steel wrap or do you have an atmosphere controled furnace?

Well, I think I have found the reason for all the controversy about why some of you can sharpen these steels in little or no time at all, and why it takes me somewhat longer.

I have been looking at the Crucible site and comparing mechanical properties. There is a section called grindability.

Crucible is testing the grindability of the steel in the annealed condition, and most of the various steels do show about the same grindability in the annealed condition.

In the hardened condition, it is a different matter entirely. I have my blades heat treated before I sharpen them. I didn't think surely that some of you people were buying knives made from un-heat treated steel. That explains why they sharpen so easily, like butter, and why they need sharpening so often.

I can understand why S30V is as easy or easier to sharpen than ZDP 189. The blades are not heat treated. Try buying one that has been properly heattreated, and you can tell the difference very quickly.

How do you sharpen something you don't have?..................

Nope, no heat treated S30V here. HA!

You are allowing a heat treat variance of 100 degrees F?
I'd bet you are also allowing a four to six point variance in Rc without even knowing it.

The OP, and likely 99.9% of people commenting on S30V's sharpenabilty are likely buyers/users of finished /heat treated blades. Just saying.
Diamonds are hard.

Not nearly as hard as number mans skull.

Big Stick you know, you.......... A well forget it. 1234567890 will surely write an entire book on here how to do so.

She do like to paint herself into a corner..................

As to the first part remaining, perhaps you should try it before making a judgment call. Just a suggestion.

As to the second part, did you raid Gus' stash?

Again, if you study the actual discrete data and complete graphs, you would temper your enthusiasm to rate one steel sooooooo much different in performance to another.

Relative info and sequence ratings only tell part of the story.

My personal experience is that most steels do grind very comparable prior to heat treating.
My personal experience with sharpening those blade after heat treat, starting with .020" edge is---this difference is minimal and you won't be able to discretely rate results in your shop or basement environment.
My experience with field use is---hard to fairly test and compare steel variations in performance, but I am sure there are some relatively better than others due to chemical makeup.

If you like the style of a reasonable well made knife, then I suggest you acquire it regardless of the steel used. If it is not stainless, just take proper care of it.

I believe this reply addresses the OP only.

JMHO
Tim

Getting a knife red-hot by field dressing a deer?

I think that gets my vote for the most absurd claim of the year!

It probably also puts a lot of the other things you talk about into proper perspective.

You wouldn't happen to own a North Carolina built M-70 SuperGrade in 375 H&H would you?.......................DJ

No, they do not vary. Although I haven't had a blade heat treated in over 10 years, when I did have them heat treated, it was done by Paul Bos, so I think he would have used the correct temperature. The 8-900 degrees was an estimate because I didn't want to take the time to look it up, and since I don't do my own heat treating, I didn't see that it mattered.

From what I understand, Paul's furnace(s) are calabrated and very accurate. He also Rockwell tests each blade. Paul's work will not vary by 5 or 6 points.

how does that work????? You haven't had a blade heat treated in over 10 years and you don't do your own heat treating. So you haven't made any knives in over 10 years? Your not making any sense to me.

"Your not making any sense to me."

Why does that not surprise me?

1234567;

Actually, he asks a valid question, and I, too, am confused.

Paul Bos is one of THE best at heat treating, no doubt.

But, you state that you don't do your own heat treat (which raises questions about a couple things you said earlier), and that you haven't had anything heat treated for over ten years.

So, have you not made any new knives for over 10 years, or are you simply working on blades that were treated that long ago (stockpile reserves)?

As far as I know, none of the top knifemakers who use high chrome and high carbon steels do their own heat treating. They are knowledgable enough to know that proper heat treating plays an important part in how well a steel, any steel, performs.

Bob Loveless used Paul Bos. Steve Johnson uses Paul Bos. Also many, probably all of the best, has Paul do their do their heat treating. Some bladesmiths who do differential hardening with carbon steel heat treat in their forge, and this is practical, if YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, but none of the heat treat the high carbon, high chrome stainless at home.

And yes, I know that Paul has retired and that someone he trained took over the business.

I don't know why I bothered trying to explain this to you. You, .458 Lott, BS, DJ, and some of the others are sure as he** not going to understand it. I certainly hope your mamas learned to stay away from leaking colonostomy bags after some of you were concieved. I would't want to know that there are others like you running around unsupervised.

To whom was this directed?

Jeezus Christ,you're the [bleep] Jeff-O of knives.............

VA, I will try to answer your question, but I am NOT going to get tangled up in another sh** storm.

In 2000, I made up a batch of blades, 40 or 50 and sent them to Paul. They were 154 CM, heattreated to RC 60-61. This is the hardness that experienced knifemakers, such as Loveless has determined that 154 performs the best, such as edge holding and toughness and wear resistance, and that is the hardness that Paul recommends for this steel.

In 2002, I had a severe heart attack, and it did permanent damage to my heart. I can work on knives, but only for an hour or so a day, before I get too tired to work any more.

When I had the heart attack, I had a few heat treated blades left over. When I feel like it, I work on them. I have 4 that I am working on now, and these are the last blades I have. You know about this, but the police seized one of those in 2008 and I recently got it back. It is one of those I am trying to finish.

As far as I know, S30V was not available in 2000. If not for the heart attack, I would have liked to have made some blades from S30V, CPM 154 CM, and also BG 42, but the heart attack put a stop to that.

Now, to try to clear up the confusion. As far as I know, the elements that make up 154 CM have not changed. Maybe slightly, but not much. I also do not think there is any difference in a 154 CM blade Paul heat treated in the year 2000 and in one he heat treated recently. Not for me, because of the above reason, but for anyone. A 154 CM blade from 10 years ago would, I think, perform the same as one would today.

And that is why I only have a few blades left, and also why I do not have any made from S30V, CPM 154 CM, and BG42. There is another one I would like to try, if I could find it, called RWL 34. It is the powdered version of ATS 34, except possibly with a trace of Vanidium added.

I have made several hundred blades from 154 CM and ATS 34. I know how it holds up in the field. The newer stuff might or might not be better, or even as good. I do know that to come up to the standards of 154 CM, it would really have to be good, but I don't consider that to be impossible.

As for my own heat treating. 154 CM and similiar steels have to be heat treated in an atmosphere controlled furnace, and tempered at a carefully temperature. Not many knifemakers can afford furnaces of this type, and using these 8 and 900 dollar furnaces with the steel wrapped in stainless foil just doesn't get it, in my opinion.

I think that is the primary reason that some people claim some steels are worthless and others claim the same steel performs well.

As much time as I spend on making a knife, and for what I sold them for, I would rather have someone like Paul do the heat treating so that when the knife left my shop, I knew the customer was getting a quality knife, made from quality material, and heat treated by the best available, and not a piece of junk.

Some people on this forum seem to think that is the wrong attitude to take, but it is the way I feel about it. Oats that have been run through a horse are cheaper than new and fresh oats. I prefer to sell new oats of the highest quality.

As far as my opinions on steel. I am not a metalologist, but I have several books on the subject, plus I have catalogs from various steel mills. I know how different amounts of different elements can change the properties of steel. I also know that steels made from similiar elements, and in similiar amount, will perform a lot alike. That seems to be lost of some of the people who frequent this forum.

I have also used D2, M2, W1 and other steels, but I like 154 CM better.

Did the above clarify it for you?

"To whom was this directed?"

DJ, BS, .458 Lott, MontanaCreekHunter.

That clarifies it very well. Thank you, and the remaining stock being what you work on now makes sense.

As for the schitstorm, if you don't want in one, don't get in one.

1234567

Why was that so hard to repy to me about? You wrote something and I ask a question on it. Is that hard and am I an a__hole for that? I can understand why you have heart problems, if you took it down about 50 notches and relaxed I am sure you would feel better and put a lot less strain on your heart.

One through seven,

Sorry about your health concerns. Hope all is well.

But, you are behind in the game by more than a little.

MANY makers do their own heat treating now. Bob Dozier, Dan Crotts and Phil Wilson are but three names that know thier stuff and do their own.

They monitor to the single degree and to the single Rc point measurement.
Anyone that does not is not making a premium product which is even comparable to their work.

You've "educated" yourself wellllllllllllllllllllllll beyond your intelligence...................

"how does that work????? You haven't had a blade heat treated in over 10 years and you don't do your own heat treating. So you haven't made any knives in over 10 years? Your not making any sense to me."

"Why was that so hard to repy to me about? You wrote something and I ask a question on it."

I have said many times on this forum that I did not do my own heat treating. You frequent this forum quite often, so you should know that I have mentioned Paul Bos many times. With that in mind, and the way you stated about "I don't do my own heat treating and that I haven't made any knives in 10 years," it sounded to me like you were being an azz. If you wern't, then you might consider asking your questions in a more polite manner.

I have several faults. One of those is when I perceive someone coming on like an azz, I tend to treat that person in kind. However, I have never initiated the azzseness, but I don't shy away from it, either, when it it directed at me.

As an example, read the statements BS has made. I have never replied to one of his post or made a verbal attack on him, but look at the things he is saying about me.

If someone with any intregrity, intellegence, class, legitemency, knowledge, everything that BS doesn't have said those things to me, I would take offense, but with BS, all you have to do is consider the source. He's nuts, and no amount of arguing or retaliating to his remarks is going to change that.

If you get into a pizzing contest with a skunk, you are going to smell like a skunk, even if you win.

"As for the schitstorm, if you don't want in one, don't get in one."

I do try to avoid them, but they seem to follow me around.

As an example see the post BS made right after your post. I tried to answer your question in an intellegent manner, but intellegence and BS does not seem compatable.

I'm comfy in stating facts and will leave Fantasy to you................

Takes a real [bleep] Nut Job,to talk at length about the particulars of things she's never seen,let alone done...up to and including the "nuances" associated with sharpening them Dreams.

Hilarious!..............

One thing about you. You swollow bait better than anyone I have ever encountered. Seems like the more rotten it is, the faster you gobble it down.

I am not your 'she.' You are going to have to use one of your bu** hole buddies for that, and there seem to be a several on here that worship at the Big Stick shrine.

Pretending it didn't happen,don't cast it in a more favorable light. Stupidy ain't bait Sugartits,it's a plight and you's plighteder than most and by quite a margin.

Congratulations?

Pardon my horning you up,to boot.....................

?

1234567

I was having a blond moment and did not think about the fact you had blanks already done on hand. I can admit when I do something stupid. I have to agree with others you do seem to have a nack at bring it on your own. I think a great idea at this point is to end the responses and move onto a new topic. Both for your health and dignity.

She'll jump through hoops lit on fire,to prove how clueless she is and few would be so brazen.

Someone oblivious,will very often put on a rather good Show and it ain't ever an act.................(grin)

"Both for your health and dignity."

I agree, but there is only one of me and several of you. It's pretty easy for all the players when they can join into a game of pile on, and I did not start the pile on.

On a serious note, the information I posted about steel and it's elements and properties was gotten directly from data sheets from the steel manufacturers themselves. It was not something I made up. To disagree with me about it is to also disagree with the actual people who make the steel.

Maybe some of you know something that the steel manufacturers don't.

Another place I got some of it was from the knife forums. You might not believe it, but there are some very knowledgable people who contribute to those forums, and some of them individually have much more than the combined experience of many posters on this thread.

Some are also chemists and metalologist and can tell you the number of vanadium carbides and chromonium carbides in a piece of steel. And the number of these carbides dictate how the steel will perform under certain conditions. Notice I said perform, not which is better. Better for one purpose might not be better for another purpose.

A Rc hardness of C61 might not be better for a certain purpose than C55 would be in the same steel, but used for a different purpose.

I don't know how people got the impression they did, but I never said that S30V was a lousy steel. I did say that I had never used it, and I haven't. But, I have used steel with a carbon content of 1.5%, which S30V has, and I know some of the properties that a steel with 1.5% carbon has, but that is not the same is saying that a steel with 1.5% carbon is bad.

Usually, carbon this high will make a steel very brittle, but it was surprising to discover that S30V is nowhere near as brittle as D2 with equal carbon content.

Anyway, think what you want. For me it has been a learning experience. I have learned some things about steel, and I have also learned some things about some of the people on here that I had rather not found out.

Where'dja learn to talk about things you nothing about?

Look forward to you going back there and getting a refill,so as to allow your Imagination to really take off again.

This [bleep] is hilarious!.............

I wasn't piling on you. I read these threads for two purposes, one being entertainment which a lot of it is. Two to learn things and hear others opinions. You have to have a little tougher skin here. Don't take things so personal.

"This [bleep] is hilarious!............."

Half witted people often find things hilarious that normal people ignore.

Opps. Half witted does not describe you. You would have to have a brain to be half witted.

Your stupidity,is too huge to ignore for everyone but yourself...which only frosts the cake.................

"Don't take things so personal."

I try not to. This, at one time, was one of the best sections on this forum, and also my favorite, because I have a lot of experience making knives. That is until a certain person, along with one or two others came on here and brought it down to a level that they were instrumental in bringing other threads down to.

Usually, a person could make a statement or voice an opinion, and if someone disagreed, then the disagreement was put in a polite form, and possibly a correction made. No name calling or other insults. But not now.

No things like 'thats stupid', or 'thats not true.' I realize this is the internet, and there are people from all walks of life on here, but class and intregrity does not ever go out of style, even on the internet.

You will be able to better understand that when you read the next post answering this one from the expert in all things, and the one that has the filthiest mouth and filthiest mind of anyone I have ever encountered.

Only you,can prevent you from saying stupid [bleep].

That'd be yet another in a long list of facts,that you cain't comprehend. Guessing is risky business,though you revel in it.................

That was your first response to the OP.
And, many who know what they are talking about have proved that statement wrong.
We have the hands on experience with S30V.

You went on to pontificate as if others know nothing compared to you about steel or how a good knife is used and maintained. Especially a steel YOU HAVE NEVER WORKED OR HANDLED.
That is where you started the storm.
Quit crying because you forgot to bring an umbrella.

Caught again, with the same worm.

Is there a Mensa chapter in Alaska? Do you regurlarly attend the meetings?

1234567

Big Stick is alright. He just calls it like he see's or reads it. Take from him what you will, if he bothers you that much ignore him. I think he has some great points at times, is funny as hell others. Insulting is only insulting if you allow it to be.

You're on fire...especially digging "regurlarly",which is commensurate with your BEST efforts at unintentional humor.

Can't wait for you to talk about walking on the Moon and seeing Bigfoot.............

I saw bigfoot while walking on the moon. Oh wait that was from a bad batch of Tequila.

A sharp tongue is no indication of a keen mind. If somebody bothers you on this forum, ignore em'.

But stupid is the gift that keeps on giving and cain't be ignored.

Poignant to boot!..............

Do you really, honestly believe that a steel, any steel in the range of Rc58 to 62 is not going to be abrasive resistant? If no one else can tell you, then the Crucible data sheets certainly can.

You say that and try to tell me that you have hands on experience with S30V? I just plain do not believe that. Someone might have told you it was S30V, at that hardness, and you might have believed them, but there is no way it could have been. Do you even have an idea of what Rockwell hardness means? I don't think you do. Do you even know why Carbon is added to iron to make steel? I didn't think so. Do you have any idea what the carbon does to the iron? I didn't think you did.

People who know what they are talking about? Just curious, but who are all these people? It certainly isn't you.

You are taking sides in this and joining the pile on for the simple reason that you just plain enjoy being an azz. You know nothing about steel and knives. The more you pontificate, as you call it, the more obvious it is that you have no clue about the real world.

I have worked steel with a 1.5% carbon content, but you haven't. If you had, you would not have made those statements.

When I talk about high carbon and wear resistance, you don't have any idea what I am talking about when it concerns steel. If you did, you would not come on a public forum and make those claims.

At our deer camp I guess we just never noticed this phenomena because we usually let Hellboy do all the Skinning and he just wouldn't notice....................................DJ

I've got him on ignore, it's just that sometimes I can't restrain myself. Very seldom in ones lifetime do one have a chance to come in contact with a speciman like this. I don't want to take the chance of missing something important.

There you go again 1234567. Just stop the insanity really. You should go back and read all the post here from the beginning. I think if you did that you would really realize you need to just STOP.

MCH, you know, after your last post, I did go back and read the first two or three pages.

I did say that a steel in the range of RC 58-62 is going to be wear resistant. That is my opinion. In those first the pages, I did not find one place where I might have taken condemed anyone whose choice of steel is S30V.

I did find where I Ah, crap on it. I don't dance to other people's tunes and I never have.

Yea, I couldn't possibly have sharpened any of these knives in S-30V:




I'm sure that Chris Reeves and Paul Bos didn't heat treat them correctly either.


I couldn't possibly have worked with these knives in S-60V and S-90V:




I couldn't possibly have sharpened these knives in ZDP-189:



And I'm sure they are were in annealed condition when I worked with them even though when I had the Kershaw Rockwell tested it came out at RC65.

YUP 1234567 is the only one here who knows anything whatsoever about knives and steel and everyone that disagrees with him or corrects him is completely and totally wrong and has never so much as held a knife in his hands.


Or NOT.................................................DJ

Is that you Jeff-O?..............

Listen close.
YOU are making the statement that "Any blade steel in the range of RC58 to RC62 is going to be very difficult to sharpen." I'm stating it is NOT, if one knows what they are doing. There are some fantastic items out there for sharpening blades, DMT diamond benchstones being ONE specific method. I own them. I use them. They work, and work quickly,

I own PLENTY of S30V. Ordered one-of customs too.
One particular Crotts is my preferred favorite. It cuts like a laser.
Sharpen? Hell, it takes nothing to touch it up.

Everything else you have said, well, just keep on living in your fantasy world. I'll let my reality be my guide, not the stuff you have "read" and "heard" about one of the best steels available today.
The OP got his answers in the first seven posts, before you came on board and attempted to "educate" the world.

Those who buy S30V and D2 (AND OTHER HIGH CARBON STEELS) are the types who WANT wear resistance. They know the edge will work for a LOOONNNNGGGG TIME on critters and fish. Touch-ups are done without difficulty. That's a cold hard fact.

Originally Posted By: MontanaCreekHunter
I haven't had a problem holding an edge. Well I take that back I have a knife michiganroadkill made for me and I'll be damn I had to touch it up after 6 critters. I would sell it but it is my second favorite knife so I guess I am going to have to live with it.


I hear ya, MRK built me a pair out of S30V and I did up a Utah bison last week with the B&T and that POS wouldn't shave hair after I was done. Pulled it back out of the trash because the handle was so pretty.



Boise---that must have been one tough bullet you were cutting on. Guess the 154CM blades hold up okay. Now you got me questioning the S30V. Grin
I would take some buff jerky if it showed up in the mail.

Tim

EPIC humor,never don't not rate a bump.

1234567,is IMAGINING she has a clue.

Again.................(grin)

After your momma got pregnant with you, did she learn to stay away from leaking colostomy bags, or do you have younger brothers and sisters just like you?

Your IMAGINATION ain't gonna take you anywhere other than your reality and rest assured dumbphuck...humor don't get any funnier than THAT!

Say sumptin' about knives and sharpening them.

Laffin'!..............

"Say sumptin' about knives and sharpening them."

Why? You still wouldn't know anything about it, if I did write about it. You're not even smart enough to realize that you're stupid.

You have attracted a follower. Ole Murph is trying to suck up to you.

You're following along nicely and going rather out of your way,to reiterate your dumbphucktitude.

All you need is slack on the rope,to hang yourself and I just happen to keep same on hand in copious supply.

You go girl!.................

Just don't get your neck tangled up in your own rope.

I've the luxury of not being forced to guess.

Curiously enough...guessin' is all you've got,as a best case scenario.

Laffin'!............

Now that is one of my favorites.

Fact...............

That does sum it up, BS like that makes a man wonder if some are not more prone to 'accidents' then others?

Rest assured that in person, a mouth like BS's does not make it to 30 with all his teeth.

Ole Murph is a suck up, but would need to buy a dozen more Ingrams to get his own knee-pads.

Understand that I sure do enjoy these forums, but some here are more degrading then others.

This 'was' an informative thread. Till BS offered what he does not know anything about.