Which do you prefer, and why?

I used to be able to get a good shaving edge freehand on a stone followed by a leather strop, but really struggle to do so now. I've been using a Gatco setup for a few years now and get much better results...

Thanks J.
Why do you suppose Stones used to work for you but now don't? Is it you or the stones?

I think you know or can accurately guess which camp I am in.

MCH, Stones, for sure.
But humor me a little and articulate why please.

My father was a tool and die guy, so I had access to plenty of stones as a youth.

I used free hand stones for about 50 years. I got pretty good at it. I ended up buying three larger (longer stokes)
bench stones of various grits and made a small fixture to hold them. I always sharpened standing
with my elbows locked into my sides and the stones at the same height every time if possible.

I thought I was doing well, but kept hearing about scary sharp. When Boise loaned me his Edge Pro
I found out what scary sharp is. I no longer use free stones for sharpening.

Keeping the stones CLEAN and the angle CONSTANT is very important in sharpening blades, especially the newer steels
heat treated to higher rockwells.

I fear the old days of setting around the deer hunting campfire spitting on an arkansas stone and working up a
slather swishing your high carbon soligen blade heat treated in the mid 50s around is about gone.

I now also use the Work Sharp for my filet and kitchen knives. Does a pretty good job and is quick touch up
after setting the convex bevel the first time.

So anyhow, I feel that almost any fixtured system will normally beat free hand for sharpening.

Just my 2 cents.
Tim

Thanks Tim! Very useful info for me

If going to or staying with stones, I would say that the most important things are

Get 11" stones for a longer sustained stroke.
Get three grits, coarse, medium and fine.
Keep them clean.
Find a way to make your hands and body a fixture for consistent positioning and keep stones at same height.
And find a final strop or polish system that works for you.
Also remember that until you get a burr, you are not ready for a finer grit.

again just my 2 cents.

All of the big knife fora have intermittently hosted blade sharpening competitions. In EVERY case guided systems have won.

You are right! But I have a modified method, I don't lay the stone flat I clamp it vertical. This allows me to actually see my angle. Why do I free hand? I suppose because that is how I learned as a young kid.

A sharpening competition would be purely subjective. A cutting competition is not subjective.

Oops,my bad. I should have said "blade sharpness" competitions! The ones I reference use the protocol from BF that Phil uses: Seamount Rope Testing


In addition, I've been a Bladesports member for quite a while now and most of the guys I hang out with from there LOVE Clay Allison and Wicked Edge...

Could you draw a better circle by hand or when using a compass technical drawing instrument ?

Better straight line by hand or using the edge of a ruler ?

I’m pretty good on stones. But it’s an art, and that means you have to settle for a bit less than perfection. Anymore with my really expensive Japanese kitchen knives I’ve gone to a mechanical setup.

For the money, I don’t think you can get a better setup than a Hapstone. It has taken the Edge Pro to an entirely different level. I use diamond stones.

https://www.gritomatic.com/collections/hapstone-sharpeners

I'm sure it's me not being able to hold a consistent angle - likely due to age and unsteady hands, but who knows...

I always thought I was good freehand until a buddy of mine showed me his Lansky system. Now I know what scary sharp is. Finish with a strop and it's unbelievable sharp.

Those Russki stones are a great budget replacement on the EdgePro!

This. I figure when you're doing it by hand, you're actually competing to see if your hands and eyes can equal a mechanical device holding a precise angle. And if you like that challenge, more power to you. I'll take the easy way myself.

Depends.
I have a Sharpmaker, Lansky, and Gatco.
They all do a better job for me than free hand.
The Sharpmaker is the fastest, also the least precise.
Also the most used. It will make a knife sharp enough.
Quickly. I often use it as a bench stone if in a hurry.


At work, we have the chefs choice machines and several stones.
There it's stones, always. We carry sheath knives, and use them
constantly. Sharp isn't a dick measuring contest, it's a necessity
for doing your job. The stuff we cut dulls a knife quickly, and sharp
enough is good enough.

Freehand for me right now, I get them hair popping sharp in short order.

Indeed they are!

And if starting over, the Hapstone is a better unit than the Edgepro, though I wouldn't sell a perfectly good Edgepro to go Hapstone.

I received my journeyman machinist training at GE's formal apprentice program in Erie. There I spent time in a classroom learning cutting tool geometries along time spent on the shop floor running cutter grinders. Much of my work at GE after graduation involved the optimization of machining processes. My favorite project was the programming of a CNC lathe to machine locomotive axles. Cutting speeds and tool geometry made up a lot of my life.

If you really wish to know how good your edge is formed then look at it under a microscope. I had one at my desk for the last 25 years and learned even a fixture system has limitations with the biggest issue being uniform stone pressure. My hand sharpening was a joke, the cutting edge was far from uniform. Look at a razor blade edge under a scope, that is your goal. 60x scope works just fine.

Sharpen with a fixture system, strop to maintain the edge. Actually stropping increases the edge angle and you'll need to cut back the blade material to establish a new edge but stropping is far more convenient then setting up the sharpener.

Now that’s useful info.

I simply use this, quick easy no drama, just simply pull your blade through a few times, shaving sharp yet again.

The issue with the crock system is the cutting geometry is parallel to the cutting edge. Think of the mirco-surface of the cutting edge, it will appear like a raked sand surface with ridges that approximately follow the cutting edge with the ridges occasionally terminating in the cutting edge. And of course you can not hold the exact same location with each pull. This is not an ideal cutting edge where an ideal edge is a uniformly controlled edge. You can create a sharp edge but it won't be ideal.

And this is all assuming your blade starts at a narrow enough angle to engage the cutting edge and not the relief. It would be informative to learn the difference between light and heavy strokes, exactly which part of the edge is contacted.

Hunting partner used a similar carbide edge sharpening tool in the field and it made a significant improvement to his cutting edge but he started with a ridiculously dull edge.

It always surprises me guys will spend a LOT of money on knives, then cheap out on a sharpening system. The Lansky is about the bare minimum I'd use.

There's an old Chinese saying equivalent to our - "he's a jack of all trades, master of none"... the Chinese is - "he has many knives, none are sharp!"

Dunno if your talking to me brad, every one of my custom knives you could shave your nuts with. As I said, it works for me...

When a blade gets dull it's just that the very fine cutting edge has been bent a micro amount like a 45*-90* angle . And the very finest part of the edge can be curled over ?
Stroping grabs the micro edges and puts them back in alignment ?

I wanna see that!



Well, not really!





The thing is.
Practical reality.
Steel, grind, thickness, taper.....
All play into how a knife cuts.

As someone who uses a knives of many shapes and styles
In my job. Sharp is when I'm getting a nice cut, without under effort.

Watching videos where someone goes clean nuts to get a blade to
cut nicks in a hair, I wonder. In the real world, would that edge do
any practical work? Or would it roll/chip, or wear off? Leaving
you with a blunt edge.

Not at all Jud... was really just thinking out loud. Sorry, should have made that clear.

I agree with Boise. This can work, if you like a plow for an edge. Provided it is used just to touch up it can and will work. So will a strop with diamond emulsion spray and on a much better scale.

For resurrecting a dull blade good luck unless you are using lesser grade steels. I can't imagine the time and effort that it would take on the likes a S90V or such.

I used to freehand and do pretty well.
Went to Lansky diamond a few years ago.
Took some time to get edge cut to spec, but then touch up after that has been easy peasy and quick

Copy long as a guy doesn’t get his blade butter knife dull I’ve had good success with em. But I like leupold, Toyota use Nosler bt’s etc..😂😂

But I like leupold, Toyota use Nosler bt’s etc.. I have used and owned worst!

Yes, in some cases an edge dulls as you describe but what I saw under a microscope my edges degraded for a multitude of reasons. Most common was the edge would actually round out much like you see with machine cutting tools. Sometimes I saw flat spots or areas which I suspect were from contact with hard surfaces, for example, after boning out a deer or elk my edge would have flat spots which I assume were caused by banging against a bone and sometimes hit rocks. I also saw micro chipping of the edge and at the extreme could feel the chips when sliding my finger edge down the edge but PLEASE don't do this and bleed like I did.

Your edge wear is going to depend on how you use your knife. Push a razor edge too hard and it may bend, use an edge long enough and it will wear round, bang it against something hard and it will flatten. Leave it sit unused and the edge will degrade with oxidation.

I use stones on scandi grind blades because I can lay the grind on the stone and know it is perfect.

Every other grind goes on the Lansky or the Gatco.

I also find that knives with steel like what is used on Russell Green Rivers can be sharpened on about anything. More exotic steels and those with Rockwell numbers in the 58 and up range come out better for me on a guided system.

I use stones on scandi grind blades because I can lay the grind on the stone and know it is perfect.

Every other grind goes on the Lansky or the Gatco.

I also find that knives with steel like what is used on Russell Green Rivers can be sharpened on about anything. More exotic steels and those with Rockwell numbers in the 58 and up range come out better for me on a guided system.

KME makes a very nice system I use

Boise ,
Howdy .
Thanks for the info. , it would be cool to see a picture of a very sharp knife under a microscope then pictures in the same exact position throughout the skinning process .

A youtuber kyle noseworthy a canadian i believe showed some sharpening and spoke of what's happening to the leading edge of the cutting surface . Made perfect sense .

Myself I never stropped until a few years ago - i thought the entire ''edge'' was just gone and it might have been . I've became much more aware of how to use a knife - roughhousing the edge anywhere anyany way ruins the edge immediately . Which leads to more roughhousing then you need a lot of sharpening to get another edge on the butterknife .

Thanks for the answer and yes on the oxidation on edges - my older broadheads use to get dull until i used a smidge of vaseline on them .
I'm going to search blade edges under a microscope pictures .

This is getting deep... Microscope a blade edge?... I'll just keep doin what I do, and workin up critters how I do, which is a whole lot more than 99% of members here. I love simple flat ground blades that are made to work, and a havalon in the mix too...😂😂🖕😎👍

Wicked edge sharpening system. No equal

I can, and do use both. I have come to prefer the EdgePro over stones for most purposes. I rely on Japanese water stones for all my Scandi edge bushcraft knives, and for my Japanese knives. Sandpaper or compound impregnated leather for my convex knives.
One method just won’t cover all needs.

[quote=Judman]This is getting deep... Microscope a blade edge?... I'll just keep doin what I do, and workin up critters how I do, which is a whole lot more than 99% of members here. I love simple flat ground blades that are made to work, and a havalon in the mix too...😂😂🖕😎👍[/

Judman ,

Morning ..
Things are changing - soon your method won't work - you'll saw and hack at a big elk until the meat is rotten .
You'll yell out into the night ''if only i had looked at my blade under a microscope i'd have known'' .

When I retired I left my microscope for another engineer. I do wish I would have brought it home, it was a option for me. I looked back through my old files and don't see any edge images. Sort of surprises me I don't have edge images.

I wouldn't have spent so much time looking at knife edges if the scope wasn't sitting in my office. A very nice Zeiss stereoscope (both eyes open) I picked up at our surplus equipment.

Would be nice to set one up at a big knife show and let people examine their edges. I suspect you could sell lots of sharpeners that way.

Boise ,

There are some cheap $20 handheld scopes that plug into a computer or phone via USB cord .
Bunch of videos on youtube and pics of sharp/dull blades - google .
I didn't want to bore the board with a video .

Many pics of the rolled over edge and chipped off edge you spoke of .

Use free hand stones (high density Arkansas) for knives but a jig for precise angles on chisels. Strop on paper or leather, and frequently use a steel when butchering/filleting.

Cookie, however, can rapidly undo my efforts. She likes to saw even the most tender of cuts using the full length of a blade on porcelain plates.

Really lucked out just yesterday. A neighbor was cleaning out his dad's garage and offered up a 12-inch surgical grade Arkansas stone for $2.00. I told him is was grossly underpriced, but he said "it was of no value to him." Looked absolutely true and unused, so I probably saved about $80 on that one.

One of my many hobbies is flint knapping and we have obsidian readily available even in my yard. That stuff is sharp. Knick ones self with a flake, and it bleeds for 20 minutes. Cuts are so clean and smooth that clots have a difficult time forming. Up side is they will heal in about 24 hours.

Speaking of, here are a few I picked up at a bit over 10,000’... at a minimum, a couple hundred years old and still sharp as a razor.

Have them all...literally ALL...and I agree..

Hmmm.

There are a variety of similar systems (like the Hapstone). It's more the quality of the stones and the ability of the operator rather than the system.

Heck, Gene Ingram uses a Lansky...

As you adjust your wheels, tension your belts and jiggle your jigs the stone of the old ones sleeps in a drawer, and a small, sly voice in your head tells you that you are not a man.

Fully agree, Brad. Though I would say "understanding of the operator with the system's operation" in lieu of "ability of the operator."

I have both edgepros, a KME, both of the russkies (hapstone and TSPROF), sharpmaker, Tormek, Wicked Edge, Warthog, heck, even Bader and Wilton Square Wheel grinders....and lots more. Plus at least 30 types of stones from SiC to Shapton, Chosera, etc...

I get lots of knives from makers that when checked on the goniometer are way off from what they claim. Major issue is faceting, where they don't compensate for stone wear/thickness between initial and subsequent to finish grits.

THAT is why I like the Wicked Edge. The Gen 3 clamp, indexing, microadjustment, and mostly the both side lapping that controls the burr... BUT, as you say...once a guy "knows" the system he has, and how to adjust for consistent angle, they all work... I should have said "for me, there is no equal."

And to add, one of the reasons I love Gene (I have 37 of his knives, and we've had this conversation)...he doesn't say "I sharpened it to 20* on the Lansky", he says "I sharpened it using the 20* setting on the Lansky." Sharp (pun) guy....he gets it!

This isn't drawing!

Let me start by saying Sharp is Sharp period! The blade is either sharp or it is not. What we are really talking about is edge stability, edge retention, and edge toughness (durability).

This can be argued forever but there are things to take into account. First NOBODY in their right mind would ever argue that a guiding system doesn't gives a superior flat edge. We all know that it will give the flattest most consistent edge. But a flat edge doesn't mean it is the most stable edge. Remember sharp is sharp period, and we are talking about the edge remaining so.

I went full circle. I was given a Buck knife back in the late 70's when I was a kid and one of their honing kits which had a soft arkansas and hard arkansas stone. This was when Buck knives were really hard.....I think made of 440C and mine came without an edge. I spent hours trying to sharpen the thing when I first should have had some el cheapo knives to practice with and develop muscle memory and second I should have had a really coarse Silicone Carbide stone to profile the Buck with before I took it to the Arkansas stones. My new Buck came out lopsided and had a "working edge" ie it was still dull but better than a butter knife.

This soured me on freehand sharpening, Arkansas Stones, and caused me to have a preference for carbon steel because it was soft enough to sharpen with the equipment I had at the time. At some point in young adulthood, I got a Lansky kit and worked up my first decent edges. I used the Lansky kit for many years until the internet and Youtube came along and I saw what guys were able to do freehand. I got some dollar store knives and an India stone and learned....actually finished learning how to do it.....by mimicking them. Then I learned a little about abrasives and what is appropriate for what stages in the process. For instance, Arkansas stones are magic for finishing and maintaining some steels but they are not what you need to profile, or reprofile any halfway modern knife.....like I was trying to do with the Buck when I was a kid.

Anyway, now that I can freehand, I much prefer it. Its simple, fast, portable.....and can be as economical or expensive as you want. I actually have a little fun doing it depending on the mood I'm in. Sometimes I like making edges that can push cut phone book paper and shave an ape for fun but the reality is I could get by quite well in the hunting world with a 20 dollar two sided India stone and a bottle of mineral oil.