[color:"blue"] [/color] How have you done so far? We were lucky enough to have bagged 3 bucks on Monday. One was a 7pt. with a 17"inside spread one was a 7 pt. with a 12" spread and the last was a 5 pt. with a 10' spread. So how has everyone else done?

Sucks. My buddy and I hunted Monday all day and Tuesday till 10:00 and never saw a tail. Spent 10.5 hours in climber Monday and never came down...BT/DT. LOTS of dead does and fawns hanging on meat poles and a few bucks. Be interesting to hear what the masses are saying in a few days,

SUCKSS is right Too blasted warm....Got a doe on Monday with the Omega.

-Boy, that QDM was a great idea, wasn't it? 'Can't think of anything I'd rather do than look a mountainside DEVOID of ANY DEER SIGN!

Yeah, and QDM did it in less than one year...

Of course, piss poor management for 30+ years prior had nothing to do with it.

Goes well for me as usual, 4th year in a row harvesting or having a shot at a buck in the 4 point area

hunted 3 days in centre county--snowshoe area--burnside township ,,did not see a live or dead dear--few hunters--no deer sign. the game commission has really blown that area apart. you can't blame it on the weather, the pgc will use any excuse we let them get away with to further their job retension. let's face it the pgc is in cahoots with the big timber cos. big timber does not want deer due to the destruction the deer do to trees. the pgc is nothing more then a political bureaucratic big money spending unreliable bunch of egotistical dumdums. the view from here.

The SGL I have hunted for decades has experienced massive clear cuts the last several years. The mountain on which it lies used to be mostly available for hunting but now is mostly posted. No offense, I used to bow and muzzleload hunt, but now I only hunt firearms season and the archers and in-line muzzloaders, and youth hunters have had at them for a while before general firearms guys get a chance. The recent PGC management system has coincided with a mysterious dissapearance of deer. So, I've been getting some quality squirrel & chipmunk watching time in the woods so far.

Is this open land these timber companies allow hunting on?

I've a reason for this question.

Saw a few on the first day, but couldn't get a look at their heads. Pretty thick cover where I'm hunting, and they'd been chased, so basicaly just white tails.

Second day two snuck by me, both does. A little later in the season, I mighta shot, but early on, I'd like to see horns, or a close neck shot for the doe tag.

Been pretty warm, so there ain't alot of folks moving around like normal. Colder weather and snow in the forecast, so hopefully that'l help.

My nieghbers gang out the road killed two scrubby bucks Monday, and there was a nice 8 pnt taken Tuesday Morning.

VA, I believe this is the 5th, and (hopefully last) year of QDM here in PA. The herd went to hell around here, and I no longer see spikes and forkhorns like years ago. I believe the cause is the liberal selling of doe tags, with alot of button bucks getting wacked in their first year.

I myself haven't seen a legal buck in season for 3 straight years, and most of what I have seen taken are scrubby 6 or 8 points. A few nice ones here and there, but no more than before the PGC started this farce.

In short, I'm not a big fan of QDM.
7mm

Pretty slow for me this rifle season. I shot a nice 7 pnt in archery season, so am only going half hearted with the rifle. Only hunted about 5 hours on Monday. No big hurry to whack a doe yet.

On a QDM note: I've hunted for 28 years now. Pre-QDM years in PA, it was very common to go 3 years without seeing a buck, and then it was usually a spike of fork horn. It took me 12 years to get my first buck! This was with putting in an average of 40 hours of hunting during the two week season. Now, post QDM implimenting, I'm seeing a dozen shooters a season along with at least that many smaller bucks. One day last season I had 5 bucks go by my stand together. 4 small ones and a shooter, which I passed. Now, my records are showing I have a 40% chance that a deer I see is a buck, and about 40% of those are shooters (4 pnts on a side).
Coincidence? I think not!
I understand the issues with the "bigwoods" areas, but it sure is working here.

I am not from PA. but i would like to know what all these three letter abbreviations mean,such as QDM.
Why is this,whatever it is,so controversial?????

Perhaps it's a similiar thing in certain counties in Texas where upon one can shoot a spike or a buck with a branched antler and the other side a spike.
But a buck with both antlers branched must have antlers outside the ears with the ears in the upward alert position.
When this was implemented a few years ago in hard pressed hunting areas it was not liked by the local very much.
Now as i have been told some of the hunters in these affected counties are seeing some pretty good bucks and more than they usually would see in past years.

QDM = Quality Deer Management

Here in PA, they are protecting bucks with less than 3 points on a side in most of the state and bucks with less than 4 pnts on a side in some areas, in an effort to let more bucks reach maturity and compete for the right to breed. I'm in a "4 pnt" area and have seen a dramatic increase in buck sightings and both size and age of the deer. My archery buck this year was 5 1/2 years old. That was unheard of before this was implimented. Something in the area of 90% of our yearling bucks were shot each year before.
They were also trying to get the overall deer population down, and buck to doe ratio closer to 50/50 by increasing the doe kill. In a lot of areas this has had a huge decrease in deer populations. I believe that is what most of the controversy surrounds.

Then again, I could be wrong! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hmm...Sounds perfectly logical to me Teeder.
However,I am sure the state game commision is careful on the amount of does harvested in a region..Right??
In my early days of hunting in the 60's and 70's men were looked down on for killing does and the mantra was pretty much.."When they allow the killing of does it will be the end of deer hunting as we know it."
Well game management has proven that line of thought to not hold water.
However it took me years to get past what i was taught and to this day i find it still very hard to shoot does.
But i have done it to help do my part to balance the herd.
I just try VERY hard to try to find a doe without a fawn(s).

Teeder is correct. Most folks that I know have no problem with antler restrictions BUT the amount of doe licenses being released has created the bitterness. PGC has thinned the herd too much on a lot of public land. It needed thinned but not to the level it is now. Unfortunately PA hunters, and I am one, always believed you filled EVERY tag you have. After generations of only one deer tag per year and then all of a sudden you could shoot a buck plus 4-5 does, most guys did just that. Personally, I blame the PGC and hunters for the current situation. The difference though is that the hunters realize the mistake and the PGC is ignoring it. At my camp in the Allegheny Nat'l forest, we get all the doe tags we can and then throw them away. In the old days, we would see 50 deer a day and all does. It was ridiculous and needed fixing. Instead of seeing 10-12 deer per day, we now see 1 or 2 deer per week. This from a camp of 12 that walks miles and puts on drives for the last week of the rifle season. We hunt archery and rifle seasons hard. Especially during the rut. It's hard to take kids hunting for a few days and never even show them a deer. They loose interest fast.

Those that are lucky enough to have private land to hunt seem to be happy while those in the "big woods" seem to be pissed off.

Rh

It certainly can use some tweaking.

I have yet to see a deer.

This is by far the worst season so far for me. Others I talk to are experiencing the same thing.

QDM is somewhat different from what PA has instituted. Folks read a lot in between the lines sometimes. www.qdma.com

The Game Commission reduced the doe tags last year, under political pressure. They do now have some sort of system that evaluates each WMU for herd health, human impact, and habitat (browsing) impact. hopefully they will use it.

Deer hunting on my place has not changed much. Some days 20 deer, some days none! However, we also have pretty good habitat. Lots of cover and browse; around here you can't see 200 yards in the woods. Our small parcel bordered on three sides by land that is open to public hunting, by the way.

The issue of balancing the deer population is a lot bigger than the number of deer seen from your favorite stump.

Also forgot to mention: our deer camp is in northeastern PA, which is a long way from my home. Deer numbers there took a big decline about fifteen years ago...no food on the mountain. We went from pushing 50 deer per day to 5 deer per day. Tons of striped maple, pin cherry, and oceans of beech brush. Note that this change occurred on public land years before the state changed the deer program. Size of bucks has increased dramatically over what we saw during the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Started shooting nicer ones again about 1990, following some extensive logging on the mountain which increased cover and food.

I too hunt the ANF...as a non resident, I live minutes away from it so it's a quick and easy out of state hunt.

Haven't even seen a tail on the west shore of Kinzua...

Thinkin' next year I'll apply the 127 scoots to a set of Virginia tags...at least there I'm pretty much guaranteed to see dozens of deer.......

Yeah, but QDM don't work down here either... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Can think of a few honey holes around the NRV that get me pretty horned up on Virginia deer hunting.

Love that place....

I can think of a few places in central VA, that'd blow your mind...

It seemed like when we discussed Pa. and QDM last year there was a lot more support for the program, but now it seems like more of us agree that too many does have been culled from the herd. I haven't been back out east in a couple years now, but my brother and other friends have kept me well posted on what the hunting's been like. I agree the buck/doe ratio was way out of whack. We'd frequently see 35 deer the first day and might see one spike out of that. I sincerely hope that this evens out soon, but it's no fun to sit in the woods for a week and never see a deer. Personally I could care less if I shoot a spike, or a rack-you can't eat horns anyway. I don't think I could shoot a doe right now and feel comfortable about it. This herd's been thinned out too much. It just may be up to the hunters to fix it by passing up some does. Mr. Alt and the politicians don't seem to have the b*lls to admit they made a mistake and do something to fix it.

It will even it.

VA went through the same thing, as I am sure other states did as well.

In my area - Bedford County, most of the timber that has been clear cut is on State Forest Lands & State Game Lands. Unfortunately, someone has decided that the "over population" of deer are responsible for the slow regeneration of the clear cut areas. Its a shame that timber revenue has trumped hunter revenue. Bastids!

PA Game Commision sold a bill of goods to PA hunters called AR (Antler Restrictions) and HR ( Herd Reduction ). Herd reduction worked to well as more does are being killed as bucks that were previously legal under the old system are no longer on the table (no pun intended). Therefore, hunters are killing more does. I like AR BUT HR has gone too far!!!

Gee. After the whiz kid, Larry Alt spread his brand of game management around I'd expect B&C 170's hanging from every meat pole in PA.

Sadly, his horsesh!t style of management has spread to Westbuhgawd. The annual buck kill continues to fall. Trophy bucks are few and far between.

Looking for a good deer hunt ? Avoid Westbuhgawd as well.

They are spreading the same B.S. here.

I haven't seen a buck yet, and I've hunted all 4 days so far.
Day one: 6 does plus 2 unidentified.
Day Two: Zero.
Day Three: 2 unidentified.
Day Four: 5 does.

In all, a total of 15 deer, and no bucks. Also, there is very little shooting. I think there are plenty of deer, based on the sign I'm seeing. Today I saw 3 scrapes that were recently freshened.

I think the weather, at around 60 degrees, is way too warm for deer wearing their winter coats. They are holed up and won't move unless someone bumps them. And the leaves are too crunchy to walk up on them. Once we have a weather change (tomorrow 30 mph winds and heavy rain forecasted, then snow Saturday) things should get better. Stay tuned.

There are some big bucks being killed, and the gual of AR -- to produce an older age class of bucks -- is working. Is HR working too well? Maybe.

By the way, I don't think the PGC is running a QDM program. I don't think QDM can be run on a statewide scale. Some aspects of QDM are in the mix -- such as a means of passing up yearling bucks -- but true QDM passes up 2� year olds too. The great masses of hunters could never be managed for QDM -- and we all know game management is at least 50% hunter management.

Steve

Many states are trying to reduce their deer herds, and have been doing so for years. That is why they have multiple management areas instead of just one season/limit for the whole state. Anyway, in my opinion this herd reduction has nothing to do with hunting. The game commissions and DNRs are pressured by human/deer conflicts such as forest regeneration, auto accidents, Lyme disease, and crop damage.

An update from our hunting group. I spoke to my brother last night-he just came back from camp. (Camp's in Clearfied County on Boone Mountain between Sabula and Penfield.) He saw 17 deer the first day, which is by far the most he's seen on opening day in several years. One small buck-not legal. He hunted all day Monday through Wednesday, and saw 5 more does on Tuesday, none on Wednesday. He said the shooting was very light, and outside of a few Pa. residents filling doe tags, he never saw or heard of a buck harvested from any of the area camps. They're just not seeing the bucks. So my question is, where are they? By now it seems like if this plan is plausible, they ought to be seeing more legal bucks. I've sarcasticly poked holes at this plan, saying everyone should be seeing herds of legal bucks, but the truth of the matter is, at least in our area, they're just not showing up on the game poles. It's bad enough they're shooting off all the does, but it doesn't look like it's doing much to grow bucks. Maybe it's just an issue in our area, I don't really know, but where's the bucks?

Don't forget guys, just because there are more, older bucks doesn't mean they are stupid. They are still mature whitetails. They aren't just standing out in the fields waiting to get shot like they show on the Outdoor Channel!
You have to adapt too!
Last year during bear season, I saw more bucks per day in the ANF then I'd ever seen in 28 years. One was a beautiful 10 point with a 18-20 inch spread and tall tines. Not your traditional "Mountain Buck" from the old days!
Also, don't feed me that line of crap about not being able to eat the antlers. This years buck was in excess of 225 lbs! If you just wanted meat, you'ld have to shoot two young one's to match that.

That would be "Gary Alt", and after attending numerous speaking events of his, I never remember hearing him promise that. You have to realize, he made recommendations to the Game Commission based on scientific data. The com then makes the rules, and they don't neccesarily follow the recommendations.

Also, CWD.

Slow season here. On opening day only one hunter got a deer, a smallish 8pt. On Tuesday, I got nice 8pt. Both bucks look like they were still in the rut as they still had swollen necks. Anyone else notice this? Hunt up in Venago county.

Leo,

I've heard a bunch of guys say the same thing.

Kevin,

Good to know. Isn't the rut usually over early November?


Leo

Generally slowing down before Thanksgiving'ish.
Things seemed late last year too. I wasn't seeing major scrapes until the second week of November.

It's that damn Larry Alt screwing things up again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On a side note: I found a local guy that does Lake Erie chartering, and was thinking about putting together a little 24 Hour Campfire walleye / perch trip for next year.
Probably be 6 guys.

I'll keep you posted.

Got out 2 full days and 2 afternoons so far this season. Deer seem be feeding at night mostly with all this warm weather and holding tight to the thick stuff during the day. I have seen lotsa guys fillin the doe tags early in the week. Not many bucks, but the couple I have seen or guys brought pictures in at work were nice. Hopefully with the colder weather comin I will have more luck. If not there is always the great flintlock season around the corner. My personal favorite, cold, lotsa snow, woods to yourself, and the big bucks are movin.

Well by golly Teeder, I think I've seen the light! So help me god I'll never shoot another deer with less than a 24" spread, and I'll make sure I have your blessings first! Of course, I may go several years without eating venison, and a spike might taste pretty good, but we wouldn't want to do that. Let's see- if I find a buck that matches your expectations every 3 or 4 years, well heck, that would average out to about 40 to 50 lbs. of deer meat on the hoof every year! Boy, I love your kind of math!

Just got back home (350 miles) and outran the storm. Although it was way too warm, I did manage to shoot a 6 pointer yesterday afternoon. Worked hard for him.
On tuesday I had a 4 and a 6 pointer bed down about 200 feet away from me. After scoping out the 6, I saw that the brow tines were less than an inch long, not legal enough.
Although I had a doe tag, I did not shoot one.
Overall in our group, 4 bucks and one doe were taken. Not a lot of deer seen overall. This is in Potter Co.

[color:"red"] [/color] [color:"black"] [/color] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Monday we bagged a Nice 9 Point by 8am & Tuesday we nailed a another nice 8 Point. within 5 minutes of sunrise with another buck moving thru the valley where I could not get a good enough read on his rack, but after he broke into the light full sprint straight away at 200 yds. I could'nt get my crosshairs on him, but in the light he was probably bigger tha the two we shot. Spreads on the both we bagged were close to 20 in. Maybe its all for the better, because we were there hoping to get a chance at a couple Huge deer we sighted while scouting earlier in the season with 25 inch speads or more.
This is not private land or anything, in fact I passed an 8 point, 6 point in archery holding out for the big one. We are seeing more bigger deer with QDM. I guess thats why the call it QUALITY, bigger racks. I've heard of & seen some legitimate monsters this year & in the recent years. I heard someone bagged a Buck that scored 190 in Reynoldsville this week. I'll look into it.
Now about Quantity; I can appreciate that certain areas do not have as many deer as they used to.
I am a Hunter. When I hunt I do my homework & it is called scouting prior to the season. I know where the deer are because I find them, then I actually hunt there. I have more locations prescouted than I have time to hunt them. State Gamelands, I might Add.
Now if your version of deer hunting is showing up in a patch of woods on opening day and expecting to bag a buck, then your more of a gambler with your time than a true hunter. A hunter scouts til he finds what he is hunting. Then he successfully hunts that area where he was successful at scouting. Believe me it works.
I really cannot understand why some people would drive 200 miles to potluck hunt some deerless patch of woods. I guess that's keeping them out of my areas.

But, anyway the hunting is great for those that are really hunting. And it has nothing to do with how many hours you sit in a deerless patch of woods.

P.S. For those who may want to try this thing called scouting, my first hint: The thicker areas along the edges of the woods and near field openings have smaller trees with the fresh bark scraped off at about 1-3 feet above the ground. These are called Buck Rubs; and you guessed it, WhiteTail Bucks make them. So look for the rubs and your hunting experience will definitely rub you the right way!
Next Lessons are on being STILL & QUIET with your eyes open.

Let's see first post w/ an I'm really good and the rest of us are lazy sacks that don't know what we're talking about attitude.

What's that smell? Did somebody fart?

Nevermind, it's the smell of a troll. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

RH

Hunted for a doe today with my son. Absolutely nothing moving in the morning; cold and windy of course. We did not hear a shot within a mile. Must be no deer then, right?
Nah. A couple guys walked below us around noon and put 5 out one way and 2 out another direction. Then saw 5 more (1 buck) scattered around before dark. Deer are here, just not moving on their own since the shooting started Monday....why would they? For some reason I am noticing fewer road hunters this year. Not sure why, but I'm glad. Western PA.

Bad news is that I had a pop-up blind set up ahead of time and it was out during the storm last night. It is now smashed up. The wind blew it about 100 yards, breaking most of the hubs. ameristep mini-brickhouse I think.

I shot a 7pt the first morning. Saw 5 deer before 9:30. Shooting was very slow. I do think antler restrictions work. I am not in favor of all the doe being killed. One thing that gets me is I here a lot of hunters complaing about a lack of deer and then they shoot a couple because of all of the tags they got. You don't have to fill the tags, but this is one of the problems. Another problem is the buck we are hunting are a lot smarter then the the spikes we where shooting years ago. They are mostly nocturnal . Good luck the the rest and hope you get the big one.

Was out this morning in spite of my back hurting like a tooth ache. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Saw two, a doe and a youngun. Very, and I do mean very, little shooting. I heard more rifle shots Thanksgiving morn from guys sighting in.

Call it what you will, Herd Reduction or QDM, but they screwed the pooch around here.

SakoJake, where are you in Bedford County? I'm here in Pleasantville, about 12 miles east of Bedford.
7mm

Was out. On the first drive of the day one of the youngsters filled his doe tag.

Seen several does and spikes which we let go. The only time we saw deer was when we put on drives. For sunrise the group of seven of us were in the woods for the first 90 minutes of sunlight and nobody saw a single thing of deer. At that point we regrouped and did our first drive and then things began to happen and the boy filled his doe tag.

What surprised me was for the first saturday of deer season there were very few hunters out. Fine with me as we hunted SGL in Wayne county. Also on Monday (which I could not hunt) one of the fellas from our camp, on the same SGL shot a real nice 8 pointer. Rack was symmetrical and ok size, not heavy or big but nice. The body on the buck was estimated at 225 lbs.

I really do not know if there are more or less deer, but I do know that with the warm weather and less hunting pressure they are not moving around as in years past. Once we started to drive though, they got moving.

Dropped a good 8-point today. Posted pictures on another thread:
Pretty good buck where I live.

Steve

gopher - don't really care for your statements thus far but my experience has been similar to Teeders.

Case in point: I hunted a new stand in Washington County yesterday -had only scouted the area once prior to yesterday. Saw 41 deer from the treestand, only 1 small buck. My buddy saw 25 with a buck, his father-in-law saw 14, 2 bucks. The neighbor stopped me on the road at dark asking about deer sightings. I did not let on I had seen that many deer. His next statement was that deer numbers are way down. But he's been hunting there his whole life.........

Passed on a 7 pt on Monday. Saw a very large buck in bear season in Clinton County off Pete's Run road, my buddy saw 3 with 2 Wallhangers" as he described them. My 3 best buddies shot 2- 8 pt and 1- 10 pointer in archery season. My Dad saw 4 bucks on the first day of gun season, he saw 3 more yesterday.

Yeah QDM really sucks and that Larry Alt is a real moron.........

Or could it be that, as Teeder astutely points out, bigger bucks are different than the dinks we've been used to seeing? Thats where my money is. I've never hunted bucks in the same way as I hunt "deer" - they are different, move different, bed different, react different to pressure.

Simply put QDM works in the farm country. Issues exist in the big woods country but my experince in the past 3 bear seasons in Clinton County tell me that the bucks are there. I've seen at least 1 big buck (16" spread) all 3 years I've hunted up there. I'll give you a clue - it ain't where 95% of the treestands and other guys are hunting. It always pays to scout more than you hunt........

Would also add that Washington County is 1.5 hours from my house. I wasn't happy about the number of deer sightings in and around my house (plus the fact that neighbors shot a pile of does), so I could have sat around and bitched about the deer situation or adapt. I chose adapt. Adapt is something many PA deer hunters can't/won't do.

I also find it interesting that I seem to never hunt the same area in subsequent years. Deer have a home range that is much bigger than most realize - and they utilize it differently from year to year. The same spots ain't goning to work every year unless the food supply stays constant - which it seldom does.

QDM works, and it can work anywhere. The issue is whether people are satisfied with the results. It is drawn from decades of research. A herd in balance with food supply might mean 50 deer per sq mile in the farm country, or 6 in the big woods. Many PA hunters are apparently not very happy with the latter.

QDM is adapted to each situation. It does not mean shoot every doe you see...it depends on the location. In the southern states, that is exactly what they do and they still can't kill enough. But that is not the situation everywhere. It is not a simply paint by numbers thing, yet many people try to generalize it that way.

-Point well taken about the scouting Bwinters. I fully agree tha tthe guys who put their time in and pay their dues in the preseason see more deer. I'm not afraid to admit that I was spoiled on routinely seeing lots of deer early in the season. And you're right about finding the deer. I've hunted the same quarter mile area for over 20 years, but that was mostly before QDM. I took my buck most every year, but they were the typical year and a half old spikes. The thing is, I could care less if I ever shoot a rack. It's just not that important to me. But I don't like being made to pass up spikes. It's hard to lay off a deer that in the past was considered a legal buck. I also agree about QDM probably working better in the farm land areas. We hunt Clearfield County between Sabula and Penfield on Boone Mountain. (all State Forest land.) From talking to our guys, and many of our friends and neighbors, the sightings have been very slim. It does seem like more deer were at least seen this year, so maybe I'll be singing a different tune next fall.

My brother in law and I scouted numerous areas and saw a lot of great deer sign but we haven't seen a deer yet. It just seems that the deer are getting pushed another direction or that the deer are not moving much at all.

Shooting in my area has been extremely light compared to other years. I think we are going to start moving North to hunt where it's less populated. One thing I have noticed in my area is that shooting on private property has been very good versus the SGL's.

Agreed on the paint by numbers deal. I think it will work but does need tweaking - especially in the big woods type terrain. I"ve personally have not seen large deer numbers in the "big woods" since the mid to late 1970's. IMHO deer numbers fell in many of those areas when all the timber matured. I shot my first deer in Marienville in 1975 out of a herd of ~ 25. Must have saw 100 deer that day. I hunted the same area in 1984 or 85 and was surprised how many deer we didn't see druing the week. That was way before QDM. As a result, we quit hunting up there.

gopher - my intent was not to put down those that hunt in the exact same areas year in and year out. Hell my Dad has hunted the same tree for the past 20 years - but he still sees deer and kills a buck there every year. His situation is likely a good case in point. Before QDM, he would see a buck every year before 10AM, he'd shoot it and someone else would get in the stand. Rarely did shooter two see a buck. In the last few years, he sees 3-6 bucks from that tree and we shoot two from it the past 4 years (my Dad and nephew). This year, they have seen 7 bucks in 2 days, but the total number of deer seen has dropped to ~ 15 day versus the 25-30 he used to see. In my mind, that is the result of QDM.

I'll also agree that the private land guys have it much eisier than the public land guys. I've witnessed it. The solution is not to keep going to the same public land areas or get permission to hunt private land. It's not as easy to get permission as it used to be but it can still be had - I did it this year in a new area. It do take a little more than banging on someone's door. I've bucked hay, mended fences, helped pay the taxes (small amounts after permission granted), hung posted signs and sent Christmas cards. A good private place to hunt is invaluable but does take some effort.

What really gets me irratated is the incessant whiners. I've no doubt guys are finding it harder to find deer as compared to days gone by. But they refuse to change tactics, areas or anything else for that matter. Stop by the Market House in downtown Meadville, PA on the first day of deer season. They have a big buck contest every year. Somewhere, somehow these guys are shooting some big bucks - you'll see 100 or so with very good PA racks with a handful of true monsters. The deer are there albeit not in as a great of numbers but for buck hunting these are the good ole days. I too miss the days of shooting any buck because I used to hunt alot with my recurve and pistol. Shot alot of 6 and 8 pointers that way. Now I have to be a bit more selective. Thats the way it is.

Well How Dee Doo to You, Too. You must be the self appointed welcoming committee to this campfire forum & the spokesperson for all lazy sack whiners that call themselves hunters. I know you're not speaking for us hunters that think we should scout an area before we wander aimlessly for hours & days on end, embarassed that we can't show our kids what a deer looks like. After reading your contribution to this forum I can understand why your paranoia runs wild.

I thought this forum was about "How did your PA hunt go this Year? NOT, EXCUSES why do I continue to suck at hunting year after year & am still not willing to try anywhere or anything else different than what or where I've failed to "get er done" at. I'm sick & tired of hearing no more deer, Larry Alt, QPM, it's too hot, it's too windy, it's to cold, not enough snow, too much snow. SHUT UP AND HUNT!! And if you havent been successful, buy a damn book on it and learn.

Now, back to your comments. I can appreciate the highly sensitive olfactory developement that you've aquired over the years that gained your expetise in the area of Fart Sniffing; I'm sure you've had a lot of practice with you 12 Long-Haired Sleeping Gnomes in that one cabin; with no DEERmeat to go with all those baked beans. But in this case I know your mistaken. That limburger cheese smell is more than likely rising from your crotch area and can produce undesired results when it comes to hunting 2 or 4 legged deer especially in the Allegheny Nat'l Forrest. And besides, everybody knows that smells can't be transmitted over the internet, So, the smell is obviously coming from you on your end, DAH!! What were you thinking?

Secondly, I do not question that you in fact do know what a troll smells like by now. Trolls are the only things that I can think of that is keeping you Twelve Gnomes from crossing that bridge that will lead you all out of the DEERLESS FORREST!!!

P.S. You might be able to sneak by a sleeping Troll when he farts with you smelling like all that fromunda & Limberger Cheese in all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Remember, you drew 1st blood, Rambo. But, I'm so so glad you decided to include me into your private little discussion. I'm feeling real cozy around this campfire now; I think I'll take my boots off & stay awhile. Feel free to speak your mind, for yourself in 1st person next time.

Thanks to you, Mr. Helper, I've now come up with the quote I'll be using.

"IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND, THE ONE-EYED MAN IS KING"

Sometimes the cold, hard truth affects folks just like gettin' whacked in the face with a wet towel. I didn't see anything wrong with your previous post, but it likely hit too close to home for some.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Have seen a fair number of baldies and three sub-legal bucks thus far. Could've tagged a doe several times during the first three days without much of a tussle, but was still "buck huntin'" at the time. Some very nice bucks taken within a few miles of me, including a couple within a half mile on opening day. No complaints here. Know there's at least one bruiser left in the area, a neighbor missed a whack at him yesterday not far from where I was.

Only day I haven't seen any deer at all, was the day it rained hard most of the day, Friday I think. Far fewer deer where I hunt than five years ago, still enough around to suit me. Bucks fetched in to the local big buck contest since Monday, are far heavier and better endowed than anytime in the past few decades and I've hunted here (NW Tioga Co.) for over 40 years and tend to notice such things.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

gophergun,

I'm not sure where you saw me suggesting that to you? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You can do what you want, but I'd rather shoot a big buck WITH large antlers AND a lot a meat. That does add up.

Your mileage may vary.

Anyway, I got a nice plump doe on Saturday, so I'm all tagged out for this year.
There were 8 does and two bucks in the same bunch. Both bucks were 8 pnts at least 16-17 wide.

Editted to add:

The doe was on private land (mine), but the buck I shot with my bow was on public land. 75% of all my hunting is on public land.

PA D.H.,

I will offer a welcome to the 'fire, but will also ask you to back off on the harshness a little.
No need for it here.

Do take your boots off and stay a while. It's a great place.

Thanks Dube, that post you were referring to was my first campfire contribution & I must admit towards the end I may have vented my point a little humorously. But, never the less, I try to be a straight shooter when i see it & I did'nt think I was that far off the mark either. Was'nt expect to get ambushed like that, but I always jump at the chance to have fun with phonics as you can see & have always been a life of the party kinda guy when it comes to social gatherings. So I saved you a seat by the fire with me, BWINTERS & now Teeder. By the way does the Dube in your DubePA stand for DuBois by any chance? That's my neck of the woods.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Hunted the afternoon on Saturday & saw 4 doe. 2 Slipped by under a tree I was in, might have been the same 2 I jumped earlier going in. I'm still hoping the arcery buck I was going for is still in this remote area I hunt. I find more time this week to go back out.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since I'm posting I might add that I don't see deer everytime I go out into the woods, nor do I get one every year. Partly due to trophy mentality when it comes to buck; like the smaller 8 pt I passed up in archery can haunt me more & more in the 2nd week of rifle season. But, it's the thrill of the chase in the ultimate game of Hide & Go Seek that excites me. Venison is the healthiest meat on the planet and I have a doe tag saved to go muzzleloader with my Uncle in Indiana PA after Christmas. So for now I'm all about antlers. I actually view rifle season as my form of consolation prize if I don't nail one during early archery. So if I get a good indication that a certain Buck is still on the prowl after rifle season. I can still get a chance after Christmas with a bow or muzzleloader. I will say though that the Bucks I have been seeing this year & inthe past few years have been looking more like the ones on T.V. & magazines & that suits me just fine.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Now I'm thinking that with all the $ spent on my tags this year the next step for the game commission could be instituting a hunter assisted deer crop planting around some of these devastated hardwood areas to replenish some of the deer habitat; like clover & other browse. Normally deer use the hardwoods for safety travel corridors to & from their feeding areas as well as feeding on mast crop like acorns when in the woods. So if the mast crop is especially good that will give deer more of a reason to hang out there. If not less deer.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
There are many factors that can be attributed to less deer in certain areas. I know more doe tags do. But less deer is better if the food supply can't support them. They just opened Treasure Lake up here to hunting this year, and it's about time because over the years the place has become so over crowded with deer that some look pretty sick & mangey, just down right unhealthy. There is one factor for less deer in certain areas that nobody has mentioned yet, it's the poacher element in selected areas that can be due to wiping out deer populations for generations in some areas, usuallly poor income areas; a plant closes & strangely enough not many deer in that area for some reason. I've heard stories about a man killing over 130 deer in a year period, which blew me away. If that story is only Half accurate it is downright disgusting. Then the people that tag a buck, take it home, then go to Walmart for a replacement lost hunting liscense to go back hunting that same afternoon for another Buck. This kind of $H!T definitely factors in more than the Game Commish can handle with a management program. Then there are the hunters that know the numbers are down in their own area & yet they continue to pop off does instead of driving to a less pressured area to hunt.

But, HEY I'm done venting now...And There are some Big Whisker Biscuits out there that need my undivided attention.

So Let's finish strong. Get out there & Bag a Big one this week. The key word being ONE.

PDH,

Let's do this again and you'll notice I will not write anything that personally attacks you. I will simply state what I do and offer a suggestion.

You assume I am a lazy hunter against QDM. If you read my post, I am in favor of QDM but just offered the opinion that the amount of does is on the low side and that it needs fixing. As far as lazy goes, I put a lot of miles on my boots hunting, scouting (winter, spring and summer) I also occasionally rent a Cessna and fly over my established hunting areas and look for new ones. I then put boots on the ground and walk/scout. I hunt PA, AL, GA every year and CO every other year and its mainly on public land. I will not call myself a "true hunter" or "expert" cuz that smacks of arrogance and BTW none of us are.

My oldest son is 10 and therefore ineligible to hunt in PA. He has successfully killed several deer in GA and AL so not only has he seen them, he's killed them.

If you also read, I didn't mention how I did this year. That's cuz I haven't been up there yet. I am saving myself for the late Flintlock season. I enjoy the snow (hopefully) and my favorite way to hunt is to track them. It allows for scouting and hunting at the same time.

Now for the suggestion. This is a great place but once in a while a newbie comes in full of personal attacks towards others - commonly referred to as trolls. That is how I took your first post and stated my opinion. I reread it again mainly due to dubePA's statement that he didn't see as I did. I now see it could go either way. I certainly hope that you are not a troll. Being in the military for the last 20 years and living all over this country I always miss PA this time of year. Any "connection" to my home state is welcome. I hope to read friendly informative posts written by you about our great state. The campfire is a friendly place full of opinions and I hope that's what you want too. You can click on my user name next to my post and follow the link to "read all users posts." Read through some of mine. You will not see any attack such as the one you sent my way.

Edited to add: Just read your last post just above. If that's the kind of contributions you make here then I extend my hand and welcome.

RH

Teeder,
Thanks buddy, I appreciate that & I thoroughly agree with your sentiments. I believe the harshness you were referring to was in my reponse post. I was'nt paticularly fond of getting a reply on my 1st post that addressed the whole campfire at my expense. I prefer direct responses, like yours. I still consider myself a guest here & always adhere to the house rules. Sometimes a little reposturing from the right person goes a long way in keeping the peace in the community. I know my brand of humor can be unique sometimes as can others. Introductions can be touchy at first but I'm sure we can all learn how to keep it fun.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Mighty Obliged, Teeder & Point well taken.
I'll go split a few logs all of us.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Glad to have ya!

Well how did I know to save an extra spot by the fire just for you in case we became best friends.
Hey, I had a round about way of making my point mixed with a little humor on my first post. And after reading it over from your point of view, I must say the aroma of arrogance could have been mistaken. But if you look close enough you'll see that I it's just my way of coping humorously with a certain mentality that runs prevalent in the face of any adversity when it comes to hunting. I see that does'nt include the real you. And it never ceases to amaze me at how certain words we use innocently can be so misunderstood by the interpeter. New Testament James tells all about it. Thanks for clearing me up on the troll thing. And I'm sorry too for coming down so hard on you humorously with the guns ablazing by getting the ammo from your previous post. But, alls fair when it comes to L&W. I've layed down the Howitzer as I see you laid down yours.

Anyways, I have an 11 yr old boy that'll be ready for hunting in 2007. And my 9 year old daughter will qualify to get a Buck in the 2007 PA Buck season accordinding to the new rules of the mentoring Program they established on to PA game Commish site. Check it out; you and your kid may qualify to hunt up here if there are no out of state restrictions.
All I have to do is fill a tag out on a piece of paper for her if she gets one. With this new ruling next season I'll bet I can guess what the most said quote in the PA woods will be in 2007 to their kids under 11 years old: "YOU CAN TAG THE NEXT ONE, ALRIGHT?" & "I KNOW YOUR COLD, BUT WE"LL STAY JUST A LITTLE BIT LONGER."
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for taking the time to clear the air with your reply, AND as far as my comical rampage to your inital response, no harmful intent in anyway I just took it as an opportunity exercise some creative journalism meant to curb any future ambushes. It's the ole" Dish what you can take, Know your adversary before you go into battle & Know Your Quarry Before you Hunt type of thing. I really never had you in mind when I did my first post .
Thanks RH, I know we'll get along splendidly.
Remember, it's not often that we get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression. But you managed to do just that. I like your brand. And it takes one to know one. And we are one of that kind.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
PEACE

Just wanted to elaborate on this a bit:

To all you guys that think you need a cannon to shoot deer - It just isn't true!

My .338-06 with 225 Grand Slams did just fine!
I know, I know, I was tempting fate by hunting with a pea-shooter, but I know my limitations! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No 275's?????? Jeesh. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Teeder-glad to hear you had a good season. I think we just have to agree to disagree on QDM. Congrats on a successful season.

Gopher,

Are you hunting private or public land? If it's public is it a SGL, State Park or State Forest? Also, what county are you hunting in? Did you get a deer or see any deer?

I think it would be interesting if everyone answered the above questions.

This is gunna sound crazy to everyone here including myself, but today after work I went out for a bit before dark and I saw a freakin hog, pig whatever you want to call it or they call it in other state. But I am sure it was a pig of some sorts. I guess it coulda been a stray off some farm or somethin, but I can't think of any pig farms around where I am located. I was gunna shoot but really wasn't sure on the whole legality of it.

There are feral pigs/boars on the loose in several parts of PA, mostly escapees from various shooting preserves. It is perfectly legal to shoot one, since they are not covered by PGC regs.

The PGC, DCNR and PA Agriculture folks are concerned, since some reports indicate these escaped boars have been successfully breeding in the wild (IIRC, Cambria County) and pose a threat to the habitat and to domestic swine (diseases, etc).

That said, I might check to make sure it ain't somebody's local pen-raised porker that ran off. They might prefer getting it back alive....or just send 'em some bacon and a ham.

Gopher,



Agreed! (or is that disagreed) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good Luck to you. I hope things work out for you.

I was only going for a doe, so I didn't need the extra penetration! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Got a buddy that lives in Potter Co. who has taken deer with the following cartridges that I know of: 460 Wby; 375 H&H; 300 Wby and 30-378 Wby. Of course he has also dropped a few with less energetic rounds, but primarily shoots 1000 yd BR-type rifles in deer season now. Another bud was with him years ago, when he spun a doe around a sapling at several hundred yards with the 375 H&H Parker Hale. Asked him if he had "enough gun".

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

He's also taken elk, moose and other big things with the first three. His thinking is, that there ain't much point in owning such rifles if one only gets to use them every now and then on out of state hunts. So he sometimes uses one in PA deer season.

My longtime huntin' bud was fond of his M700 8mm Rem mag for deer, but used 150gr Sierras in it. Made a pretty reliable long range bomber that was handy to carry and shoot offhand, if need be.

We got that first covering of snow you like up here in PA & it made me think of you tracking in late Flintlock as I will be these last few days of rifle if it stays on the ground. Here a little something to remind you of the Great State of PA. I think this is the one that might be the World Record Bull taken here in this 2007 Pa season. This one supposedly scored 575 & they think it will dry to 530. If anyone can confirm this as the New World Record let us all know. I believe this is the first year PA could participate in the Record books with respect to Elk & the free chase rulings.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Did you look into your sons eligibility requirements for 2007 yet?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Hey DubePA, your bud I'm sure would like to exercise that M700 8mm Rem mag on a puppy like that!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I'm definitely puttin in for that Elk tag next year, and one for my boy too!

Edited: The picture of the Elk is attached. I do not know how to display it in the copy area....if anyone can clue me in I'd appreciate it.

Ken-we hunt State Forest Land in Clearfield County between Sabula and Penfield on Boone Mountain. I wasn't able to participate this year-my accounts are from my brother and the neighbors in the camp next to our. My brother DID see 17 deer the first day this year-which is more deer than has been seen in the last 3 years combined. Hopefully, this is a good sign of things to come.

Boone mountain has had alot less hunting pressure this year because the new gas line going in along the fire tower road. Should be real good hunting for late this week and if there are any die hard flintlock hunters that know the area. I know I will be out there bright and early tomorrow.

Shot a 6 pt this year, took the first legal one that came along as the weather was so warm and the forecast wasn't any better for the rest of the first week. Hunted the ANF along Kinzua. This week is definately better weather wise but I'm back in Florida now.

Saw a nice 8 pt in the parking lot and heard there were a couple more good bucks taken within walking distance. I also ran into a group of guys that hadn't seen a deer all day, but they were hunting where I wouldn't have.

In general, the few deer around look to be in very good shape and since the antler restrictions were implemented I've scored every year, 3 nice bucks and two 6pts. Not many does sighted but the chances of seeing a rack are much better now then ever before. You need to hunt smart and expend a lot of energy at times locating where they are hanging out. The does are very wary and are not moving during the warm weather and the hunting pressure.

Good luck all,

Ed

The taxidermist I took my buck to said it was 3� years old, as were most of them he's received. One that came in yesterday looked 4� or 5� at first glance. it has huge burrs on the antlers, and outstanding pedicels. But when he examined it more closely he said he was sure it was only 3�.

He is getting deer from both WMU 1B farm country) and WMU 2F (big woods). He has a 160 10-point that was killed in 2F, and a 166 10-point also from 2F. I showed him a 153 9-point that came from near his shop in 1B (don't know the age). He says he is getting about the same number of bucks that he has other years, but they're running somewhat larger.

By all appearances, the antler restriction policy is producing bigger bucks, but in some areas, hunters are not satisfied with the herd reduction results. But then, the PGC has never managed the herd to get them to the exact population that will make everyone happy.

Steve

Passed on filling my doe tag first week. So far second week has been a bust. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Wel, I sure didn't hurt 'em much this year. Other than the first day, I never saw more than 2 or 3 in a day, where I used to see 15 or more.

Lotta reasons for this other than the population, which is low. Warm weather the first week, thick cover, and lack of hunting pressure all factor in, as well as the fact that I spent alot of time dogging the briars hoping to get my nephew a good shot. (He missed. Twice! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)

I never had the safe off 'till the last day, and that was to finish off someone else's cripple that my Brother-in-Law and I tracked down.

We'll see what happens in the post X-mas flintlock season. I've hunted this area all my life, and have a pretty good idea what the deer are doing, but I need a little help getting them to go where I want. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All in all, judging from those I've talked to, and number of shots fired, I'd say the kill was way below average again this year.

Of course the Game Commision won't admit to that, as it knocks down license sales. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
7mm

Took a doe yesterday morning.

I mmmmmmmmmmmmm..........
miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssss.....
miiiissssssssssssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

Been passing up does for two weeks. Decide to shoot one in the PM - 75 yards walking. How does that happen? I didn't even shoot again because I knew it was dead. 'Cept n' it weren't.

I really, really hate when that fat lady sings at the end of the season.

Only 9 months, 3 days till I leave for Idaho...................

I feel your pain! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last season I had one standing 60 yards away, totaly oblivious to my presence. Meat in the freezer, right?

I still can't for the life of me figure out how in the world I missed, but sure as sunrise... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The only excuse I can fathom is picking my head up to watch it fall down, thus losing the sight picture, and the game. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
7mm

Rifle season is over and after several long days still hunting, stalking and deer drives, I have yet to see a deer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This is by far the poorest season ever. And, it's not just me. Lots of very unhappy hunters in my area.

I copied and pasted an article from out local newspaper about the decline of hunting in my area. This article is very telling about the state of affairs that hunting is currently in around here.

I know a lot of guys who used to hunt that don't anymore because they are tired of seeing more people than deer or they are not seeing any deer at all. These guys have very nice mounts in their homes from years gone by... I know some guys will say bad hunters or other BS but what it boils down to is less hunters equals less money which means less for all of us in the end.

Many find reasons to stay home from hunt

Shrinking game land has played major role

Monday, December 11, 2006

BY MONICA VON DOBENECK

Of The Patriot-News

Harold Horst of Lower Paxton Twp. used to be an avid hunter, but he didn't even buy a license the last two years. Areas are too built up, he said, with no place to hunt anymore.
Jeff Shank once let anybody hunt on his wooded land near Elizabethtown, but they took advantage of him, he said. Now, he likes to watch the deer run around and hunts them only with a camera.
Tommy Carr, 17, of North Cornwall Twp., wouldn't mind hunting, but he has no one to teach him.
Richard Price of Millerstown is too busy to hunt, with a wife, small children and a full-time job.
These people are among the legions of nonhunters in Pennsylvania at the close of rifle deer season, which ended Saturday.
According to figures from the Pennsylvania Game Commission, hunting license sales have declined most years since 1981, when they peaked at 1.3 million.
In 2005, for the first time in years, fewer than 1 million people bought licenses.
Through the end of October, the Game Commission had sold about 717,000 hunting licenses.
The Game Commission keeps close tabs on the number of hunters for good reason: It relies on the sale of licenses to finance its conservation and wildlife management programs.
Suburban sprawl has played a big role in deterring hunters, said Jerry Feaser, a Game Commission spokesman. "That is perhaps one of the greatest reasons: loss of huntable land."
There are many other reasons, he said.
Young people don't have time, and they are drawn to soccer, video games or computers more than the woods. Sales of junior licenses, for hunters aged 12 to 16, have dropped by half since 1998.
Older people are losing their mobility.
Hunting once was passed from father to son. But now families are challenged to find the time.
Some former hunters refuse to get licenses because they don't want to divulge a Social Security number, which became a requirement a few years ago in an effort to track down those who owed child support.
Licenses cost more.
Many complain there aren't as many deer since the Game Commission made major changes to reduce the size of the state's herd.
Jeffrey Simms of Lower Paxton Twp. once hunted all over North America. During Pennsylvania deer season, he was out every day, morning to night.
This season, he went out twice, half a day at a time.
"Three of my best buddies didn't even get licenses this year," he said. "They're building so many houses around here. I used to go out to scout and see 30 or 40 deer. Now, you're lucky if you see one or two. Deer are not as dumb as people think. They go into the developments and lie down."
Horst said the only place left to hunt is state game lands, which he said are overused. Too many hunters are not as safety-conscious as they should be, he said, which is why he stopped letting people use his land.
"Too many see something moving and just shoot," he said.
Shank said one hunter brought lumber onto his land and built a permanent tree stand without permission.
"I had to post it because of damage, debris and litter," he said.
Carr is a member of the junior rifle team at the Palmyra Sportsmans Club and is skilled with a gun. But hunting has not been a family tradition, he said.
"I don't know where to start," he said. "It's not just the shooting. How do you know how to gut the deer without someone teaching you?"
Carr's teammate, Jed Neidigh, 17, is one of the few on the rifle team who hunts. He has gone out on opening day of deer season every year since he was 12, but has bagged only one deer.
Shank lets his friend Tom Barton of Palmyra hunt on his land. But for Barton, the experience has changed over the years.
"I used to think I had to kill something," he said. "Now, I like the experience of the big woods. Although if I see a big buck, you bet I'll try to get it."

A guy at work just told me he saw 6 bucks running together at 3pm this past Saturday! 2 six's, 2 fours, a spike and a button buck.
Interesting.

My brother in law has six bucks laying in his front lawn most nights and then there is another 15 deer behind his house most evenings.

Can't shoot them because they are in a residential area with a horse farm behind them where the owner of the horse farm calls the cops on just about every gun shot that she heres.

My wife came home for lunch one day and there was a doe running down the middle of our street and we live in an older highly occupied residential area.

I think you and others miss the point... it's called huntable land not just any land.

Next year I am getting my bow back out and taking my son who is really getting into archery and I think we will have a lot more success on the game lands since there is a lot less guys during the archery season.

Where is this coming from? I didn't say anything about where he saw these deer. He just happened to be hunting at the time and on public land. The reason he new the one was a button buck was because he shot it! So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I wonder......since PA has become more blue than red, reckon that has anything to do with hunter attitude?

Santorum gets canned from the Senate?.........I see lots of blue in your future.

PA has been very "blue". I vote as many times as I can get away with, but I just can't swing it back to the "right" side! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Voting early and often can pay off!

Good luck.

I was just explaining that in our area there are a lot of deer but they are in places that you cannot hunt them... it seems like you are the one with the attitude. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

OK, Ken.

I must have mis-read your intention since you were responding to my post.

I'm done with this topic. Everyone has it all figured out anyway with the conspiracy theories and that damn "Larry" Alt. What's he know anyway? He's just the guy that made PA bear hunting the success it is. Must have been a fluke.

I guess you're right, I am getting an attitude. Maybe it's my cold medicine: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't think there are any conspiracy issues in my posts just the honest truth.

"Larry" is really "Gary", BTW......and lack of deer has more to do with habitat, more specifically food, than anything else.

We have a deer cabin in Pike County (Pa. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) that used to be a great place to hunt. "Larry" had nothing to do with the fact that for two straight years, the guys who hunted there saw NO deer in one week of hunting.

The woods are very mature and there ain't squat for food. The deer simply relocated.

My brother and I also relocated and now hunt Ohio during their gun season which is during the same week as the Pa. opener.

And don't give me that "too liberal doe permit" whine either, because in Va. you get 5 or 6 tags on your license and it has been that way for as long as I have lived here....since 1982.

We hammer the does on the hunt club that I belong to. But, the land owner has been select cutting the property for years......could be a hint there.

Food boys, that is what it is all about. Instead of crying about the deer regulations, start bitching to the DNR about clear cutting the SGL.

Tony

Teeder,

"Larry" aka Gary, is a world renown bear biologist.

He actually does thing based on sound research instead of "tradition". What a concept.

Seems like everyone in his field realized his value except people in Pa. ? WTF...........

Tony

PA has three times the number of hunters as VA so you have to manage the deer differently.

I am always amazed at the emotions this subject evokes from EVERYONE including me. I think the reason for the emotions are most PA residents feel they were swindled. They were sold by Mr. Alt that big racks were around the corner with the right management. He was well respected due his success as the state's bear biologist. Most PA folks were excited he was taking over the deer progam. When the deer "disappeared" then the finger pointing/blame game started. Hunters claimed the state gave away too many doe licenses. The state claimed hunters weren't selective enough AND just shot too many does. To add to all this the name calling started between the successful hunters and the unsuccessful. One group were "private land rich folks" and the other the "public land whiners." I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between but the fact of the matter is that there were/are a lot less deer especially in the traditional woods of the northcentral and northwest parts of the state. The herd needed to be reduced - I hope everyone agrees on that. Where I hunt in McKean county, some mountains were devoid of deer tracks (we had snow, so I could tell). I was pretty dejected up until this years season. I did not get to go due to my military duties but I got the field report from my family. They saw a lot more deer than before including some BIG bucks. None were taken but there were a few missed opportunities. They did not shoot a single doe although most had tags. But it was the other things they talked about that makes me think the forest (and the deer) are coming back. Everyone talked of the amount of red and gray squirrels, song birds, foxes and chipmunks. The forest has been lacking for them too. Sounds to me like there was a down cycle and now things are looking up. I for one am looking forward to the late muzzleloader season and next year too. Only time will tell if Mr. Alt did the right thing and we will never know how much, if any, the polititians or insurance industry had an effect on game management. I'm in the we'll see category but I am hopeful. I am now going to relax, get a glass of Crown Royal with just a splash of sprite then sit with my kids and do something that is important. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW: Teeder used "Larry" in quotes cuz someone called him the wrong name. He knows the right name.

Va. also has a gun season that lasts from the beginning of November to the first Sat. in Jan., with hunters that carry 6 tags this year............

And don't come back with that bass ackwords late flinchlock season that Pa. has, that isn't a deer management tool.

Let me tell how screwed up hunting is in Pa.....last season in the next county to where I grew up, an 18 year old girl, 7 months pregnant no less, got hit in the head by a stray bullet, sitting in her car in her driveway. Some knot head let loose on a doe on a nearby farm.

Long story short, the girl survived, baby is fine, lawsuit settled (they found the idiot), the jury also found the land owner 20% liable.

How f'd up is that ? There are posted signs on top of posted signs everywhere at that part of the state. SGL is the only game in town, and there isn't any deer there.

Wait until the good news reaches your part of the state.........

Think you have stuff to cry about now ? You'll soon forget all about "Larry".

Later,

Tony

himmelrr,

I could really care less about the deer situation in Pa. as I have pretty much written off the state for deer hunting.

It wasn't until I left Pa. that I realized how pre-historic their game management policy was.....until Dr. Alt came along that is.

The SGL is in really bad need of sound LAND mangement. The deer hunting will take care of itself.

Tony

That was kind of my point in a more direct way. My military duties have taken me to many different states, including VA, GA, LA and ME so I've had the pleasure of seeing different managment styles. Each has strong and weak points. I still can't believe that some highly populated PA counties still allow rifles for deer. That is one thing that needs to change - fast. In any case good luck where ever you hunt.

RH

himmelrr,

10-4 on the populated counties.....amazing it hasn't happened sooner.

Good luck to you too.

Tony

Again, I am not saying there are no deer in PA they are just in places where they cannot be hunted either due to developments or its private property.

That guy that shot that girl was a real ahole. He made every hunter look bad and he wasn't even remorseful after the court hearings.

hicountry,

Thanks for the tip. I'll try to get it right next time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was gonna stick up fer ya on that Alt thing, but someone beat me to it. Talked to "Larry's" successor this afternoon at a local building supply store. The kid still has all of his hair and it ain't even started to turn white yet. Imagine!

Give him about another year or two putting up with us PA crybabies and he'll have yanked it all out.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Actually saw more deer this past "rifle" season, than I did last year. Nothing like 8-10 years ago, but still enough to keep me excited about the deal.

Racked bucks are becoming more numerous and larger where I hunt (northern Tioga/Potter). If I live long enough, might just kill a dandy some year. Quit shooting 110lb bucks with 8" spreads years ago, don't miss it at all.

Now hunt in South Carolina--2 deer per day. Why is pa seeing no deer? Wait till next year, that is what i have been told. PGC has problems and they are not all about the deer.

Last day 4:20pm nice 9 point..elk county..pretty nice deer. Cutting it kinda close!

Lefty

Have you what these problems are? If so what are they and where is this info coming from?

PGC is experiencing major financial problems and has been for the past several years. Our last license increase to $20 took place in 1999. The legislature was told then, that the increase would only sustain them for about 5 or 6 years before they'd have to dip into their reserve funds. They have made substantial cutbacks in services over the past two years and are currently understaffed, especially in the "game warden" department (I believe there are about 20 vacant WCO positions at the moment, with more expected next year via retirements) .

No increase this year because it was an election year and no legislator wanted to get hammered for approving a hunting license increase in an election year (plus they were already smartin' from their pay raise fiasco which they wound up repealing under pressure from an irate electorate).

There are other issues, but I'd like to "see" what secret info is being forecast by this latest rumor and from whence it came.

One group is currently suing the PGC over the deer herd reductions of the past few years (they want a return to the days of more deer, apparently). Oral presentations were just conducted yesterday, since the original lawsuit was kicked back to the group that filed it and the court granted them what basically amounted to a "do over" to reword the suit and present it again. This has been dragging on for most of the past year or longer, with no end in sight.

Thanks dube! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What's his name? Is he proceeding along with Larry's recommendations? I hope he doesn't cave-in!

Dr. Chris Rosenberry. He and the rest of his staff have tweaked some of the (former) data interpretations, but otherwise appears to be committed to managing our deer with all aspects considered.

He's a very bright lad, in my opinion. If his staff's quidelines are followed by the commissioners, I believe all will be fine in years to come.

Good to hear!

That, sir, is ALWAYS the rub, regardless of state...

That was the rub for many years here. Biologists made their recommendations for controlling deer numbers and the sitting board of commissioners often yielded to pressure from hunters who wanted the herd to grow. We eventually wound up with far too many deer in many places. Many hunters will always want more deer, without regard for any other viewpoints on the subject, or regard for any adverse effects that too many deer create.

Deer do not exist in static conditions. Depending on a variety of factors like habitat (primarily food availability), weather, hunting pressure, hunter access to deer, etc., deer numbers can increase or decrease beyond the ability of anyone to accurately estimate which way the "herd" is heading within a short period of time. All it takes is one harsh winter in poor habitat and deer numbers are drastically reduced. Give them several mild winters and enough chow, they've suddenly doubled or tripled in numbers, despite the best efforts to stabilize them by increasing doe tag allocations.

PA has undergone many changes since I started hunting in the late 1950s. Back then many traditionally headed to the rural north central parts of the state to hunt deer, because that's where most of the deer were and access was not a problem, with several hundred thousand acres of public land. [There are 1.4 million acres of state game lands and over 2 million acres of state forest land in PA, primarily in the sparsely-populated north central areas...fer them not familiar with PA.]

Over the years many things have changed. Many NC forest habitats became overstressed from too many deer for the available food; deer numbers increased in the southern parts of the state, primarily in areas where civilization had encroached on formerly undeveloped lands...often areas where hunter access is a problem. Deer also increased in many agricultural areas, causing problems for crop farmers.

Whole different ballgame now. We have great numbers of deer where we didn't used to and have fewer where they once prospered. No easy solutions and a smaller herd in the north central is a hard pill to swallow for people who became accustomed to large numbers of deer there and want them back.

Even though the board of game commissioners essentially serve as appointed volunteers, ya couldn't pay me to "take the job". Farmers, suburbanites and foresters are still riled that there are "too many" deer to suit them and many hunters are riled 'cause there "ain't enough" deer.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bob Frye has written an excellent book on the history and current challenges of deer management in PA: Deer Wars. It is available from the Penn State Press, or at many bookstores. It's a good read.

Dube - great post; concur with all you've said. Would add that the posted land problem is the biggest variable in the whole equation along the western coast of PA. A fellow was killed this past deer season in SWPA when a deer jumped off the bank, landing on the windsheild of his pickup. Both killed instantly.

I went to Cabelas this AM in Wheeling, WV. I'll bet we saw 15-20 deer splattered on the highway between Zelienople and Wheeling. I couild go on a very large rant about posted property and those who post it for no reason other than they don't want anyone back there. Two of my neighbors told me "no" this past year. Neither hunt, not have any hunters in the family and are not antihunting. They just don't want anyone shooting their dog ('splained I've not confused a dog for a deer in 30+ years....) or want bullets whizzing by the house. I calmly explained that it ain't the guys knocking on their door for permission that are causing them problems.

Also saw a buck feeding along a high bank at noon......................

I agree with most of what everybody else said here. Over all the deer numbers are down. But the quality of the bucks I have seen this year have been much better then in the passed. I turned down a few nice shooter bucks this year and then I took this guy Nov 6 in the peak of the rut, good 9pt. I was 22 feet up in the tree lounge and called him right to me. I spined him with a carbon fiber gold tip and 100 gr Nap thunderhead. He only went about 30 yards and pilled up.

[img][image]http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m171/remmy999/06bow10pt043.jpg[/img][/image] [img][image]http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m171/remmy999/06bow10pt050.jpg[/img][/image] [img][image]http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m171/remmy999/06bow10pt042.jpg[/img][/image]

Good looking Buck..
Good job anchoring him!!!!!
GREAT rack too.

Thanks for the post.

Don

Mighty nice buck. Look like the rascal had a few "miles" on him to have gotten that much mass.

Spit - nice buck!

Nice buck Spit. I saw a lot of nice bucks running around on Nov 6 when I was out small game hunting with my sons. You knew the rut was in full swing! These were nice racked deer running around in the middle of the day.

Nice buck Spitfire. Thats the same kind of mass and spread mine had except mine was a 7pt. Hope you get a bigger one next year!

I shot a nice seven point buck the first day, but only seen three deer and I only heard six to eight shots, all of my hunting buddies came up empty handed the season. deer seam a little scarce in this neck of the woods (4C)

Congrats Spitfire!
I'd be happy with that one!

Thanks, DubePA he did have some miles on him his molars were worn down pretty good. I had 3 encounters with this buck in the days before I got him. I missed a 40 walking shot on him two days before and jumped him in the brush the day before that! I had him patterned real well. Hears another pic
[img][image]http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m171/remmy999/06bow10pt046.jpg[/img][/image]

Nice buck Spitfire!