I have a Lewiston Montana Mule deer hunt planned for this November and I want to start working up a load for my Mauser M12 30-06 (1:11 twist) rifle that I will be taking.

I have a bunch of 155 Grain Scenar's and also a bunch of 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tips on hand and plenty of h4350 powder.

I don't have any mono bullets on hand, but I am certainly not opposed to buying 160 grain hammer bullets, if you guys think that would be the best choice. They impress the crap outta me.

Probably over thinking things, but this hunt has been a 10 plus year dream for me and it's finally going to happen.

which one would you go with?

thanks

I’d use a 150 Partition with 59 grains of IMR 4350, been using that for over 45 years in probably 15 rifles. Accurate in all of them. I’m sure the equivalent load of H would be as good if not better.

The 150 partition referred to above would be hard to beat....or grab a couple of boxes of 150 or 165 grain blue box Federals and go kill stuff....

A 150 Barnes would be a great choice also.

Hows the 165gr Barnes ttsx?

Either of the two bullets you have on hand are about the best choice.
Anyone telling you to forsake them for something else doesn’t know much about guns, bullets or killing deer.

The two bullets you have will get the job done. Use which ever one gives the best accuracy and practice at different yardages and field positions. Have a great and safe hunt.

OK, I will see what shoots best. Never have killed anything with the Scenars but obviously have seen hundreds of animals piled up on this forum.

I also think you are overthinking this.

Any of those listed will work, and I would default to a combination that shoots well in your rifle.

Me? My favorite is a 165 gr. Nosler Partition in front of 58 gr. of H4350. I’ve killed quite a lot of mule deer, and other stuff, with this combination.

Those bullets will work great. FWIW, my go to for deer are 165g Hornady Interlocs. Dead reliable.

I've had great success with Sierra Game King 165gr. over IMR 4350, accurate and kills with authority.

Shoot the 165gr Ballistic Tip.

Didn't mean to just throw one in. I'm just testing some 165g ttsx in my 06 for whitetails, because I had them already, wondering if anyone's done well with them on deer?

The Barnes 150 TTSX bullet over some IMR 4064 or IMR 4350 works for me in my model 70 in 30/06.

I agree with 150 grain partitions or maybe 165 or 180 partitions. Then the 200 partitions have become my favorite bullet in the magnums and it would shine in the ‘06 as well.

Either one of those bullets will work fine, if your rifle shoots either one of them adequately. And the rifle doesn't have to put them into half inch groups to be adequate...LOL! I've shot and seen a fair number of deer shot over my decades here in MT and they all died just fine, whether the bullet was of standard construction or one of the premium ones. DON'T OVER THINK THE BULLET/LOAD COMBO. IMO, there are other things to worry about, like:

1. Get yourself in very good physical condition, especially if you plan to hunt public lands where you may need to be getting up early and hiking many miles into prime habitat.

2. Learn to shoot your rifle well & quickly from real world field positions, and practice, practice, practice, ... And I don't mean off a shooting bench with a bipod or other artificial supports. Practice shooting in windy conditions because there are many HIGH wind areas in central MT and the winds are very active the majority of the year east of the Rockies in MT.

3. Memorize the ballistic dope (drop & drift) for your carefully chronographed hunting load. You probably won't have time to pull out you smart phone and look it up. And there are plenty of locations not that far outside of Lewistown where you won't get a cellular signal at all.

4. Practice estimating distances in the field with your own eyeballs, and then use a rangefinder to validate your estimates. Big mature muley bucks are just as smart and cagey as eastern whitetails, and they aren't going to stand around posing for while a hunter fumbles around with a rangefinder and twists the elevation knob on their scope.

5. Mentally prepare yourself not to see the 30 inch 4x4 muley buck of your dreams. There aren't lots of those bucks left on public lands in MT. And the ones that are live in country where most hunters can't get to - either because it's too remote & rugged, OR because it's posted and not accessible to the non-paying hunters.

GOOD LUCK & HAVE FUN!

I like bullets that hold together for all my big game, but the truth is that most 150 and 165 grain 30 cal bullets do ok on deer. I bought many thousand 150 grain Winchester Power Points and also several thousand Remington Core-Lokts in 150 grain many years ago. My WW bullets are all gone now, but I still have about 2000 of the Core-Lokts left. I have killed deer with both and the Power Points held together better, but both work fine from 308s and 30-06s.

If price (and availability) were not a problem, I'd go to what I thin of as the "Gold-Standard" every time, the Nosler partitions.
But from the kills I have made on deer and antelope (which I can say are MANY) the Core-Lokt 150 grain does kill well, and the old Power Points seemed to give the same wound channels clear through deer as I got with the Nosler Partitions.


A 30-06 is actually more powerful then needed for deer sized game and does well on both elk and moose. So any 150 grain bullet that is not a varmint bullet (some are, despite how they are marketed) do just fine on deer from a 30-06 and for probably 70 years, it's been considered the "standard weight" for deer hunting in the 30-06------ and for very good reasons.

I have used 150s from Remington, Winchester, Speer (Hot Cores, were so-so, the Mag Tips were good and the Grand-Slams were very good) Hornady Inner-Locks (good) RN Inner-Locks (excellent) and SSTs (break up more then I like) Sierra Game kings (break up badly) and Pro-Hunters (which do better, about like the Speer hot-Cores) Nosler Partitions (the best so far) and Nosler Ballistic Tips (mostly good but with a few break-up)

In 165 grains I have used Hornady flat base Inner-locks (good) Hornady Boat tails (break ups every time) Sierra Game Kings (many break-ups) Speer Grand Slams (no problems) Nosler partitions (perfect every time)

In 180 grain I have used Remington Core-lokts in both RN and pointed (never a single problem on a deer) Winchester 180 grain RN (excellent) Hornady Inner-lock in both Spire Points and RN (always perfect results) Sierra RN Pro-hunters (perfect on every deer shot) Nosler partitions (perfect in all cases) Norma Alaskan (perfect )

The overall results from 180s are better then 150s in that so far I have never seen a bad blow-up with a 180, but that is likely because of the lower impact velocity and the fact the heavier bullets exit so if they didn't hold together, the extra weight was enough top exit so seeing the broken bullet was not possible. If I get an exit, the rest of the numbers don't matter.and a bullet holding together is only important for penetration. Once you have exits, nothing else really matters.

BUT, the 180s do not shoot as flat as the 150s and because there are a number of very good 150s to choose from, I still go with 150s for deer and and antelope hunting when using a 30-06.


Here is a buck antelope I killed 2 years ago with a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. He was facing me straight on, and I hit him at the bottom of the neck, through his heart and the bullet exited from just in front of the rear leg. Range finder said he was 218 yards away. A bang-flop with an exit, lengthwise. I can't say any other bullet could have done much better.
M1 2020 Buck 2 by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

Thanks SBElk, I'm using em over A4064 for about 2770fps so far, very accurate, just got to arrive on a final load! Helps to hear good words before shooting at a deer!

I just logged ~200 miles well off the asphalt surveying wildlife east of Lewistown over 4 days. I saw plenty of mule deer (and elk). Unfortunately the landscape is popcorn dry going into the second spring without rain. Most the animals were near water sources (the Missouri River, natural seeps, or cattle tanks if turned on). The best mule deer I ever shot was in the Missouri Breaks, a .270 Win pushing a Barnes TSX 140 gr. I jumped him out of a deep coolie, and he made the mistake of pausing at the top of the next ridge about 200 yards out. I always carry a set of shooting sticks and popped him about 10 seconds after settling to one knee. It was a high chest shot, must have also shocked his spine too as he instantly collapsed, and was DRT when I got across to him. My advice would be to find a real accurate load at 100 yards, then practice with it to 300 yards. A lot of deer will be observed at far past that distance, but won't be approachable because of terrain. But others will present quick close shots for the same reason. Conditions in that region can also be quite breezy, so I never plan for true long distance shooting. Better to have a gun you are willing to carry far than one designed to shoot far (500+), and the M12 is a good fit. Lot of good advice above by MTDDFAN. But I would also recommend a mono because I don't like lead grit in my meat. I've never tried the Hammers, but you have me interested in buying some! Good luck.

cooperfan;
Good morning, I hope the day's looking decent for you out in Michigan and you're all well.

While it appears that you've already made a decision on the bullets, I trust it's okay that I offer a few thoughts on chasing mulies that I've learned over the last 40 years hunting them here in our part of southern BC.

The response by MT DD FAN was in our experience spot on, though I can't comment on the deer populations in the area of MT that you're hunting just to be clear.

Here though, you won't see a 30" rack that often. I can recall seeing only a handful in the 40 plus years here for instance. As well, I'm reluctant to talk numbers because context is sometimes tough to establish on the inner webs, but I've personally been front and center when at very least 120 mulie and whitetail bucks, sheep and black bears have been taken with bullets ranging from .257" 80gr up through .338" 250gr of all sorts of construction types. While there was some difference in terminal effect, it was usually less than we thought it'd be, so I've seen bigger bucks drop faster when hit with the 80gr .257" than a 225gr .338" for instance. The size of the hole in the barrel doesn't mean as much to me as it once did in terms of the ability to cleanly take game. Bullet construction is more important, but can be worked around to some degree with shot placement.

When we used to have more sheep on the mountain behind the house, I'd shoot the breeze with the locals who were guiding hunters who'd come in from all over the world. Their number one complaint by a large margin was that their hunters could not shoot from improvised rests or field positions in a timely manner.

You might get time to range that big old mulie of your dreams, set up a good rest and get the bipods out - might. Or you might have to the count of 3 to decide whether or not you're going to shoot it - or not - like I did with the California ram I took, or most of my largest mulies and whitetails and the bull moose and all of the black bears so far and.. Well you get the picture.

Sometimes one gets to see them on a sagebrush hillside out yonder and do a stalk, but for us here we're much more apt to bump them in draws and travel corridors or in the timber.

Whatever you can shoot fast and confidently with will give you an edge that you might find handy when the time comes.

Hopefully that made sense and was useful to you or someone out there this morning.

All the best and good luck on your hunt.

Dwayne

Shzthn, I believe ya! Not experienced yet (working on it) with the 06, but nothing has worked any better in my 30-30's than Winchester PP's, and Rem CL' a distant 2nd! Best Ammo ever sold over any American counter! But ran out like a big dummy in 2020, so I went to Hawks in my 30-30.

I used 150 grain Speer Horcors for many years on Wyoming Mule deer never the slightest issue and recovered very few. Those I did recover looked perfectly expanded. Remington corlokts gave erratic performance as did the Winchester Silvertip (old style). The Winchester Power Points were good also. Nowadays I use the Partition almost exclusively either 150 or 180 grain bullets. Even the 180's shoot plenty flat enough for shooting out to 400 or so yards.

There is not a dang thing wrong with the 155 Scenars.


I have shot a pile of deer and elk with them and they do a great job. In a 30-06 there are more right choices than there are wrong really.

Accuracy and bullet placement are far more important than bulet brand, diameter, or weight. My bullet for Montana Mule deer for the past 45 years has been the 117 grain Sierra GamdKing from my .257 Ackley. Before that, I hunted Mule deer with 150 grain Sierra GameKing bullets from my .30-06.

Although I shoot premium bullets in several of my rifles, a standard cup and core 150 to 165 grain hunting bullet from your .30-06, if put in the right place, will kill a mule deer just as dead as any of the new premium bullets.

Choose the bullet that is the most accurate in YOUR rifle!

Your rifle will choose the difference, I can almost smell venison cooking...

If you have a "bunch" of 165 BTs and "plenty" of H4350 I would say you need to search no further. Check the books for a good minimum and work your way up from there.

I go with 130 TTSXs for my .308Win.

I'm sure they'd kill even deader out of an '06.

They sure accurate regardless of the load!

This only I use RE 15 in mine. Lighter recoil and will absolutely kill any mulie that walks the earth!

I've always gravitated to the 150-grain bullets in the .06 for deer, but there will be absolutely nothing wrong with the 165's and H4350, you should be able to get 2900+fps, a deer killing combo if there ever was one. Good luck.

I have killed dozens of deer with 165s and 150s. My 165s were mostly Sierra hpbt and the 150s NBTBRT. Not out of an o6 but .300.. Killed lots of elk with them too. They will work fine on mulies from an 06. They are just deer.

155 Scenar with H4350 is what I use at times. Works great.

Either one will work fine.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS

I have been shooting Mule deer & elk for over 60 years and I found the 165's became my favorite after about 10 years using 150's which also worked very good. I killed a spike bull elk 2 years ago using Win. 150 factory Silver Tips at 350 yds --one shot!
I wouldn't be afraid to use any 06 bullet if your rifle is sighted in!
Have a good trip and hunt in God's Country

You guys are trying to make this way too hard. Deer are easy to kill. Just pick the bullet that's the most accurate in your rifle and go shoot you a deer. You most certainly don't need a premium bullet. A standard bullet like a Sierra Gameking or Speer Hotcore will easily kill any deer.

You have been given good advice by several. They one thing that you will need to cope with is the change in elevation between Mich. & Mt.

Getting in good condition is part of the issue but the elevation difference is real or it was on the non resident hunters I have guided.

You should spend more time worrying about being in shape and good health, practicing field shooting positions.both bullets are fine and good choices.. mb

Thank you, guys, for all the information, and giving me some great advice. When you look forward to doing something for so long, you tend to overthink things. I also have a friend here that is adamant that the BT is far superior to the Scenar and he had me second guessing that.

I can't wait until November. Just 2 of us are going to be in camp on this lease. Our guide takes very limited number of hunters, I guess.

I have already started dropping some weight and getting in shape. If it ever warms up here, I'm really going to get serious.

I will definitely be shooting a lot this summer, and getting used to this Mauser, It's a new rifle for me.

I honestly haven't left Michigan and Ohio in 10 years for hunting, so all I have been using is my TC Encore (I have 3 of them), which I am very proficient with and shoot hundreds of rounds annually. I actually just recently bought a 30-06 barrel for the Encore, and am seriously considering taking it, because I am so accustomed to the feel of the rifle.

What he said.

I like this bullet and it's what I'd use.

You’ll be in grizz country, I’d go with the Partition or TSX for self defense.

I shot a lot of deer and a few elk with y .308 with 165 Ballistic tips. And a few with 165 accubonds.

Lefty

While we have grizzlies moving in there are not many here. Doesn't mean I don't think of them when in the local mountains because they can wander and one was killed south of Lewistown last year for killing cattle and ranchers have mentioned seeing them over the years, but I wouldn't worry too much if in the breaks or plains. The F&G has been doing a decent job of keeping people informed if a griz moves in. Saying that, if I was in the Snowies or Belts I would consider something tougher than a NBT, but anywhere else I wouldn't worry about it. Currently I doubt a person would have to consider it around the mountains near Lewistown anyway.

We were in Reed Point this weekend. They were saying a hiker bought the farm via grizz over by Red lodge not to long ago. First I’d heard about it.

Hard to beat Nosler partitions.

But I am a fan of HotCors too. Killed a big bull elk with 180 grainers at just over 400 yards once and bullet performance was impressive.

Literally anything from a 125 Gr Ballistic tip up will kill mule deer. Start with the 165 you have and learn where it shoots out to a distance passed your general comfort level and be confident .

You guys are great. Thank you

Sierra 180 grn spt
Can't remember their official number.
Click on Midway USA and click on the bullet you are interested in and read the reviews.
Some good info there, SOME.
Good luck

In case no one else has said it...this is your huckleberry

That should work superbly well. There are so many 165's and 180's that will work. Regular ol interlocks and Winchester powerpoints do wonders too..

Can't ever go wrong with a Nosler Partition

Fussing over gear is part of the fun.

Have fun.

The only mule deer buck I’ve seen shot was with a 168gr ballistic tip I loaded for a friend over IMR 4350. Worked perfectly.

I've surely done well with the 165 Nosler Ballistic Tip and a stout charge of H4350. Seeing 2950 fps and sub MOA groups. Has brought me elk, black bear, mule deer & pronghorn. Nice combo.

Fun topic, lots of us have hunted mule deer and thoroughly enjoy doing so.

Regards, Guy

I've been using 165g whatevers on mule deer for about 40 years. The reason I went to them was I read at the time that this weight bullet in the 30-06 had as flat a trajectory as the .270 (the add didn't say which bullet), but hit harder. Funny thing is they didn't kill mule deer any deader than 150s. They are nicely accurate in all the rifles I have tried them in and getting around 2900 fps isn't too hard to do. And they should stabilize in that slow twist rifle you have, he says jokingly.

I always have favored a 180 grain bullet of good construction. Go forth and fill an ark.

They are just deer. I have used 125-220;s in .30 cal. Many others with 24 and 25's. Even a few with my .22-250.

180 cor-lok will kill any deer you shoot

About anything will work on a Mule deer. I know of many killed with a 22lr.

Lotta stuff written about how small calibers are so great for deer.
Then, very specific bullet choices for them.
If someone calls that into question, they are immediately attacked
using their marksmanship as the target.


That crap show doesn't circle the 30-06.
Choose a decent bullet from 150-180gr and go kill stuff.
Stay away from the softest and hardest bullets and it's an easy thing.


I'd use the Ballistic Tips.

I used a Barnes 130 TTSX in a Mule Deer once. MV was 3100 fos. It dropped the deer right there. The shot was about 80 yards; entered the ribs on the left side and exited the shoulder on the right side. The size of the exit wound was only slightly larger than the entrance.

I, me, myself wouldn't hesitate using that bullet again on a deer BUT this is your 10 year in the making hunt.

I have had good results from Hummer bullets out of my 243 and 7mm-08. I haven't taken any game with them yet. If I do get drawn for deer, that 243 will get it's chance.

use to be a 180 and 220 grain RN guy in the northern woods of Minnesota and Wisconsin..

but here in Oregon... if using an 06, I tend to either load a 150 grain Ballistic Tip or a 150 FN Speer..

and my load is usually 30 grains of 4198....

150 yds is normally about as far as I would shoot one, as I am usually in some thick cover it seems...

but either choice has never failed to drop the deer, if I hit the vital zones...

when I manage to miss, I have to laugh, but when I miss, it wasn't even close...

I'm a good shooter and a schidt shooter the other times... with very few times in between the 2 extremes....

Love me some 06!

i never read all these post on this forum but i do own a few 30-06 `s also ,if your a hand loader i think if i was too buy bullets to load a 30-06 i would seriously buy some Hammer bullets in the 120-130 gr. this should shoot accurate and fast enough too. good luck,Pete53

180 grain Hornady spire point out of my 30/06. Same one I use on elk.

'06 on deer? Just use the most accurate one you have. About anything can kill a deer cleanly if you hit it right.

Terminal performance is more important than a small advantage in accuracy. An inch and a half gun can kill any deer to 500 yards or more.
A slow expanding bullet May let a deer get back onto private property.

Agree and worth a try.

I’m a Hammer fan. New bullets, new powders are interesting developments for an old, proven round.

I also like faster, lighter bullets in the ‘06. But of course, bullet construction and the game critter being hunted is always a consideration.

DF

My one and only muley I’ve ever taken … Fall of 2020 out in Montana. Shot him with my Win70 in 30-06 using Hornady American Whitetail 150gr ammo. It did the trick for me!

I was out in the hills not too far from Livingston last month. Saw lots of mulies, thousands of elk, couple Grizzly and my first ever mountain lion. I would factor in the bears when considering my bullet choice. It's a highly unlikely scenario that you would have to use it but I would at least keep it in mind when choosing a bullet to hunt with in that area. My 2 cents.

Yep

180-200 grain for a deer? They have Mulie Elk where you live or something? 😎
I’ve used bigger bullets on deer but didn’t kill ‘em any deader.

That is a beautiful deer!!!

I think the heavier bullets in the 06 are ballistically superior at ranges over 500 yards.

I like 165 and heavier for the 3006

I use a 160 grain ftx for 300 sav and 30 wcf

There’s many bullets for the 30-06 that will work great. I used to only shoot 180 grain bullets after a 165 grain bullet failed. But that was just an early design that failed. If I were shooting 180 grain now I’d think almost any cup and core would work well. If I were shooting 150 grain, I’d be looking more at premium bullets. I think you said you have 165 grain ballistic tips which should work fine as long as they’re not first production year bullets.
I had a suppressor put on my 30-06 and I shot a very nice group with it (<1/2MOA). It was with 180 grain interlocks. The suppressor not only knocked the noise down but also cut out recoil quite a bit. I’m hoping to get a few tags this year, maybe I’ll use that combination on one.

They work damn well on deer. The plus to using a bullet like the 200gr partition is you can use the same load and bullet for elk. 1 and done. No fn around with loading different bullet weights for deer and then switching to a heavier bullet for better performance on elk. Keeping schidt simple is foreign to some people here.

^^^^^^^^^

Yeppers

^^^^^^^^^^

Oh I know and I fully agree. I was just messing around.

Thank you much! I’m happy for just the experience. It was my 1st out of state hunt and hunting trip out west. Great trip with some good friends! Deer was just a bonus.

in the old 06 i'd use the 180gr and the 220gr bullets

If you use anything other than a Berger 175gr VLD the bullet will bounce back and probably hit you in the eye.

Good Luck and wear eye protection.

To be honest, I never realized there were bullet options for the 30-06

Are you suggesting that a .30 cal 165 or even a 180 partition or similar at .30-06 speeds is adequate for deer but not for elk?

The 165 grain Hornady Interlock is all you need to know. Premium bullets haven’t killed more elk and deer. All the endorsements of the small bullets and good shooting have forgotten what some of the industry standards have always been and even endorsed by guys like Bob Hagel…



You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

Well said Shrapnel. Too many forget this at the expense of wounding an animal to satisfy their ego.

Lol. Now it takes a 200 grain bullet to kill an Elk?

Obviously got my mule deer tag, but did not draw for Antelope.

Started working up recipes for 155 grain Scenar and 165 ballistic tips to see what shoots best

I find that normally the whitetails I end up shooting are shot ~ 100 yards or less with some exceptions.
Mule deer (bucks) on the other hand is a whole other game for me. I don’t get that close. Doe’s act like pets compared to a trophy mule deer buck.
Regarding the bullets you mentioned, I’d go with the 165 grain ballistic tip bullets.
In a “once in a lifetime” hunt I’d be looking at Partitions first though. There’s lots of premium bullets on the market but my first choice is partitions.

Shot many Mule deer with the old 150 grain Speer Hotcor. But if it were a trophy hunt the 165 gr. Ballistic Tip is an excellent bullet. So is the 180 grain version.

You guys have convinced me to use the 165 nosler

I’m going to just focus on that bullet

Thank you

You can’t go wrong with the partitions

Hard to beat 165s in the 30/06 like bread and butter

Scenar shoots really well at 3050 fps. .003 off the lands. 53 grains of Varget. mag primer

Quickly tell me a bullet coming out of an 06 that won’t kill a deer. Kiss! Edk

I shoot .30-06 Winchester Super X 180 gr. and the poor critters never made it further than 20 yards with 90% of them dropping in their tracks instantly dead.

Shot a handful of mulies - they aren’t that tough to kill. Less tenacious than a whitetail in my unprofessional opinion.

A 150 would work just as well.

A 150 or 165 Hornady Interlock, BT, Partition are all you need for any Muley. If elk were in the mix, I’d remove the BT but that is it and MAYBE go to a 180gr. I have never shot a Scenar.

Just got back from my hunt.

150 hammer bullet did the job at just over 300 yards. Wasn't a huge deer.

We didn't see any quality shooter bucks all week. It was pretty disappointing for the money we spent on the hunt and travel expenses. Not sure if drought impacted antler growth or blue tongue, or just a bad ranch. We did see some giant elk every day.

Grass Range Montana (middle part of state) is where our ranch was.

Talked to a Pro hunter (travels all over the world) in Billings airport that was kind of stunned we were hunting in that area for wall mounter type bucks. he turned us onto a place in Arizonia

Oh well, always next year.

I am going to start looking at South Dakota or Nebraska so we can drive it.

I've never had one walk away from getting punched in the boiler room with a 165 gr. Ballistic Tip propelled by 57 gr. IMR 4350.

Those three items are just about perfect. The 165gn Ballistic Tips are pretty stoutly constructed. Good choice of rifle too. I have one in 6.5x55 and really like it.

New guy here. Enjoy reading the thread. 30-06 in my opinion is the greatest cartridge of all time. 4320 and a Hornady 150 interlock. I don't know what it is about that combo but it kills. Better have your knife ready. That bullet will hold together but is still disruptive.

Forgot to add. I like a flat based bullet. Don't know why but my rifle does too.

Welcome! Hope you are stocked up on 4320. It's been discontinued. (I have a 243 that loves it, too!)

Thank you southtexas. I know. I am down to my last pound. The agony of working up a new load. 4320 rocks in the old .243 win.