My nephew's 10 years old son is interested in hunting deer this year and was fortunate to draw an antlerless tag in Maine. They have not been a hunting family so I'm trying to set the boy up with an appropriate rifle. I have a TC Contender carbine with a .223 barrel and also a .357 Max barrel. The Max barrel will also shoot .357 mag. Recoil is definitely an issue to consider. I had a bad experience with another kid shooting a .223 (poor shot, no pass through so no blood trail) so am not enthused about the .223. Would the .357 mag be preferable to the .223? I'm assuming the Max would offer more penetration than the .223 but what about overall effectiveness on deer? Shots will be kept to 50 yards or less. A .22 lr barrel is available for practice. Advice appreciated!

my 10 year old grandson will be using a 223/556 AR-15 with a 1- 6 x24 Burris scope on this rifle with very little recoil and has a adjustable length stock too . the 223 for your Nephew is the best choice its a heck of a easy ,accurate , no recoil cartridge for a kid for deer hunting .good luck,Pete53

My 10 y/o son used a 357 Max rifle last year to harvest his first deer. The handload was light, a 200gr LHP at 1160fps. This year he is able to shoot a 180gr Fury JFP at 2000fps. If your nephew is on the small side or recoil sensitive I would lean towards a jacketed 140gr or 158gr bullet designed for and shot at 38 Spec or 357 Mag velocities. Keep in mind the velocity will be faster from the longer barrel and could push pistol bullets beyond their design capability. The 357 Max gets my vote.

Both are capable and I am a speed kills guy, but in this case I'm with Dinny. I started my youngest daughter out with a Marlin 1894CP in .357 at eight years old. She was reasonable petite and it was not an issue with recoil and we limited shots to ~50 yards. She shot her first 3 deer with it and all were pretty much bang/flop. I would say fit and weight might be the final deciding factor. I had a second stock and cut it shorter for her to handle and for the oldest had a youth stocked Model 7 in .243 (but she was a bit bigger and stronger at the same age). Good luck to you with the nephew.

The 357 Mag or Max is the better choice for an inexperienced shooter. A 357 mag 158 gr soft point will shoot clear through even a big deer. A bonus to the near zero recoil is the low noise. The Max is even better due to higher velocities.

I used to start out all of my nieces and nephews with my little T/C Contender Carbine in .223 with the 16” bbl. I bought an extra buttstock for it so I could cut it down for them on the LOP.

Loaded with the old 60 gr Nosler Partitions or with the Factory Winchester 62 gr PSP, it’s always been a deer killing machine. Every one of them took their first deer, hog and Turkey with it.
Virtually no recoil with it either. It’s got one of the old Leupold Compact 1.75 X 6 VariX III’s mounted on it.

Used it quit a bit when I first got it in the early 80’s to shoot coyotes out of my tractor when plowing our big fields. Perfect size for the tractor, as it was short enough to flip around and shoot out of either window.
Coyotes get dumb and get close to a tractor when your plowing up stubble with lots of mice and rabbits in it. 🤠

I think either will work . I’ve had both calibers. My max was a 12 inch pistol. Never had a worry taking deer sized game. With the 223 bullet selection is the key. Hasbeen

The recoil will be a little lighter with the .223 but muzzle blast will be a bit more. I started my kids hunting with a 21" light contour .223(AI) and it worked well with the bullets I used. They wore ear protection. If you use the .223 consider your bullets well.

.357 Max will be a little more recoil but it's still light in a carbine barrel. Muzzle blast seems noticeably less to me. Range will be a bit less with the Max if that makes a difference.

Penetration will vary with each of them depending on the bullet used. A soft 158 pushed hard by the Max at close range will likely penetrate less than a 50 tsx pushed at any speed by the .223.

Either will work. Let him shoot both in practice and see if he has a big preference one way or the other.

At 50-100 yards either will work...223 gets my vote

.223 with the proper bullets without a doubt!

The 357 gets my vote

This.

Which in my opinion means no railroad spike tough monos. The 223 isn't fast enough to stress a decent soft point, no need for a mono.

A 55 grain Ganeking or any other soft point will kill very fast.

A Partition would be the "toughest" bullet I would use and even then the front end of a Partition is softer than most soft point bullets.

Partition works fine out of my T/C Carbine and my AR-15’s. Never lost a deer with either.
So does the Barnes TSX 62 gr bullet.
I used it almost exclusively on the large ranch I managed in San Saba County 5 years ago. Had to cull a ton of does and scrub bucks and seriously thin out the feral hog population.
The Ranch owner bought me 4 or 5 cases of the Remington Factory Hog Hammer Ammo to use in my AR’s. That’s the bullet Remington uses in that loading.

Don’t have a Max, but with any luck I’ll gather some data on the other two in the coming season. Have a new Henry SS .357, a S&W 620 wearing a FF3, and a couple or three .223s. Might not get all of them out, but we’ll see. Goal is to have them all ready to hunt so I can just grab the one that suits me best that day.

Not really expecting any surprises. Other folks have been making meat with these for a long time.

another thing about the AR-15 223/556 rifle this type rifle has a very good strong safety and no hammer to cock or let down . grandson is very accurate with this AR-15 too.

It doesn't matter. Personally, I'd prefer a .223 with a good bullet (my favorite being 65 grain SGK.)

The most important thing is to get the kid shooting regularly on a life-size deer target so he gets used to putting the bullet where it belongs. Also, that gives you an idea of how far away you should let him shoot at a deer.

The example in the OP wasn't a failure due to using a .223, it was a bad hit...period. The longest goat rodeo I ever was involved with was when a friend's kid shot a small buck badly with a .30-06. Almost no blood trail and we eventually got the deer only because I had a pretty good idea where it was going. The lack of a blood trail wasn't because of "no pass through" it was because it was hit too high in a non-vital area. The best first deer experience I was ever party to was another friend's 12 year old daughter. I set her up with an original 92 Winchester SRC in .44-40 with mild 200 grain cast RNFP's that were barely moving. I don't remember the specific load, but they were only going 1000 or 1100 fps. She shot her deer at about 50 yards (with the original open sights on the 92. The deer took about two steps and dropped dead.

Don't overthink it.
It doesn't matter what the kid uses, just make sure he can shoot it well and knows where to put the bullet on a deer.

Thanks for all the replies. Lots to think about here!

I've taken deer and bear with a 223 using Nosler and TSX bullets. The 357 maximum rides on the heels of a 30-30 with hand loads and the 357 lever action I take that out to 125 yards max with 180 grain xtp or 158 grain xtp.


Not advise but I've seen some guys loading their 357 Mags to 357 maximum loads in they're rifles.

Yep. I'll recommend again.....let him shoot both, one after the other, as much as possible with each rifle, to see which rifle/round he prefers and which he shoots best. The "better" round doesn't matter if he doesn't shoot it as well....and it's just good practice.

Both my boys killed there first few deer with a 357 Mag Handi-Rifle. I loaded some 158gr JHPs and was very impressed with the performance on deer out to 60ish yds. That said, if I had the option of using a 223 I would likely have went that direction. I have full faith in either, but feel that the 223 offers greater range with little/no penalty.

Unless the kiddo is already versed in using a scope, I'd strongly recommend a red dot. So very intuitive for the kids. No eye relief/paralax issues. My youngest head shot a groundhog a 90yds with the thing!

This, but I'd lean toward the 357 with a good JHP around 1,200 fps.


Okie John

First off, it was the kid on the trigger, NOT the cartridge. Secondly, if it means anything, check the amount of energy each gives at 100 yds. The basic .223 55 gr SP is over twice that of a 158 gr. 357 Both will most likely shed all that energy within the target.

Food for thought.

I am aware that poorly placed shots are generally the result of user error. With perfectly placed shots, rifle choice makes little difference. But let’s be realistic — stuff happens. With an inexperienced, excitable kid (or adult), the potential for a poor shot is greater than it should be. A blood trail can improve the odds of a successful recovery.

we've killed a couple with the .223, but several with the .357.

others may swear by the .223, but I'm not that impressed. we used good bullets and hit the deer perfectly (broadside, armpit) with a 65gr softpoint. it worked, but not near as well as our 185 gr hardcast leads from the .357.

given my druthers, I'd pick the .357 every time and not look back. it works great and recoil is pretty mild in our heavier (octagon) barrelled lever gun.

Three of my friends' grandsons aged 10 to 12 have taken their first deer with my Ruger 77/357, using my .357 Magnum handloads with the 158 gr. Hornady XTP. They each shot the rifle a few times with .38's before going hunting, and all of them enjoyed it and shot well. When it came time to hunt, they each took a deer at between 70 and 100 yards with one shot behind the shoulder. The deer all died within 60 yards and all three were pass throughs that did leave a blood trail. My grandson is only 6 months old, but he will own that rifle someday. The only question is whether I will be around long enough to hand it to him.

I haven't used the .223 for deer, but I have seen enough deer taken with the 357 mag using 158 XTP's to have 100% confidence in that combo. My brother and I both started our daughters off with ruger 77's and 1894's.

I would expect a 223 to disrupt/destroy significantly more tissue.

I wish I still had the pic we took from a deer my son shot. The heart looked like a slinky. The rest of the insides were jelly.

55gr ttsx from 96 yards.

I can’t ever remember shooting any deer with any of my 357’s but I’ve shot quite a few deer with a 223…. Never had one go more than 40 yards. All were shot in heart/lungs with Sierra 1365’s. Plane 55&60gr hornady SP work extremely well in 22-250. Any one of those will work quite well. Good luck on the hunt!

That 55 grain Gameking works very well in the 22-250 & Swift as well.

Most deer shot with this in 223 through the hot 22s is DRT with a lung shot.

I've killed plenty of deer with both the .223 and .357 magnum carbine and they both work quite well. I'd have to say I'd prefer the .357 inside 100 yards. More consistent exits and blood trails with heavy sp's being the deciding factor.

223 with a good 55gr bullet but which ever you choose get him to practice and be comfortable shooting.

I know very little about 357 max. My brother-in-law started both is boys with .357 mag Marlins. 125 grain JHP. Lots of deer taken out to 170 yards. All DRT. I started mine on a Ruger 77/357 with 125 gr. JSP. Killed one spike at 70 yards, left a quarter sized hole coming out and ran about 50 yards. No recoil whatsoever. Liked it so much I bought me one and my brother in law bought one for himself. Those 125 gr JSP are good coyote medicine too. If I was hunting North of here, I'd use 158 grain up to 180 grain, but that will also up the recoil. I also have a CVA Scout in 350 Legend that would be a good starter rifle. No doubt the .223 will do the job as well, but its more recoil.

If I was starting my son today and knew shots would be 150 yards or less, no doubt I'd go .357 mag. If the max doesn't have much more recoil, then go with it. I hunt with my .357 mag all the time and I have 6.5 Grendel, 7mm-08, 6mm rem, .223, 7.62x39, etc.... But the .357 mag has put lots of meat in the freezers and you can shoot it all day.

Either will work, which one does he like?
If he can handle both Safely, let him pick. It's his memory too..

If a 223 is used the bullet placement is more critical, I think. A lung shot with a 35 caliber will drop the deer faster and leave a better blood trail than the 22 caliber again my opinion.

But I'd get the kid shooting, a lot. See if he can hit a softball target and at what range. Don't let him shoot past that maximum range. Teach him the correct bullet placement. If group size isn't much different with the 35, pick that one. But I'm betting the kid will shoot the 22 caliber better.

The other thing is distance. The 35 will have a more rainbow trajectory and tougher for the kid to hit if distance is a factor.

Having used all three, I’d pick the Max, any day, over the 223…at least for your criteria. That also means I’d pick the 357 mag from a carbine/rifle over the 223, as well. 357/358 bullets from 158-180 just work on deer. A cast 158-180 will likely out penetrate any 223 hunting load, from what I’ve seen. Either is FAR more pleasant to shoot from a shorter barrel, as far as muzzle blast goes. Recoil is a longer shove that’s very easy for small shooters to handle all day at the range. Yes, the 223 works in that capacity just fine, and I still use it. It’s flatter, and I can do other things at other ranges the 357s aren’t better for. While many of us don’t notice blast so much, new shooters do. My wife hates shooting my 223s without suppressors. She’d shoot the max and 158s all day, and has.

Spent some time shooting a .357 Max with my youngest (11 year old) this past weekend. 21" light contour barrel on a Contender frame. 180 gr A-frame bullets over H110. He enjoyed it but we only shot a handful of rounds.

Spent time shooting a 21" .223 AI bolt gun, a 16" .350 Legend (AR), an 18" 357 Mag (77/357), and a 16" .223 (AR) in the same session. Shooting steel at 100 yards.

He shot all of them fine, again only shooting about 5 (+/-) shots from each. The 21" 357 Max has noticeably more recoil than the others but also notably less muzzle blast. The design of most Contender stocks results in a bit more muzzle rise so that's something that's important to remember....I forget about it until I shoot the first shot. He preferred the shooting the .357 Max to the others. I think the touch more recoil than the others was a little exciting to him (but he's been shooting a number of years).

The only one with lower muzzle blast than the 357 Max in this group was the 18" 357 mag. Both of them were lower than the other 3. Should note that the 77/357 has a terrible trigger, a 2.5x scope, and I was playing with some different ammo that didn't shoot well at all for either of us.....he's enjoyed shooting it in the past but the trigger as always been to heavy on it. The new ammo was very irritating for both of us. The cleaner, lighter Contender trigger and great accuracy (4x scope) made the Max a lot more satisfying to shoot. I should have grabbed the "known" 357 mag ammo for use in the 77/357 but I wanted to see what the other would do.

He's not a big fan of the AR. He shot them great but doesn't like the action and muzzle blast. He prefers the bolt and single shots.

He's been shooting the .223 AI bolt gun for years. Very little recoil, simple action, great trigger, easy to manipulate, scope on 6x. He likes it a lot but it's a known gun to him. I think the "new" on the 357 Max and the little more recoil (without being to much) was kinda a draw for him. The low muzzle blast and thump on the steel probably added to the attractiveness. He'll probably hunt with it this year.

Surprised me as I was expecting him to prefer the standby .223 AI bolt gun that he's been shooting for years. Leads me back to the recommendation to let your nephew shoot as many as you can (without over doing it) and see what he shoots best and prefers.

You can't go wrong with any of these calibers. Just look at recoil. Worst thing you can do to a kid is introduce too much recoil too early. As long as he doesn't flinch when he shoots it, shoot whatever caliber he shoots the best.

I have a CVA Scout 350 Legend that I would have started my son on. It doesn't recoil much more if any more than the .357 mag. No doubt the 35 calibers are my favorite.

My daughter uses an AR15 and 77gr TMKs. Works very well. She started shooting it when she was 11. She’s been a bean pole her whole life and had no issues with it after I glued a flip flop on the buttstock.

Another thing to consider for a young shooter. Single shot hammers and break actions aren't the easiest actions to manipulate. A CVA Scout was eliminated from the shooting session before it ever started. The Contender was no problem for him to cock/de-cock and open the action. The Scout was quite a bit tougher to open the action on. I couldn't tell a difference opening the Scout or Contender myself....but it was a difference for him.

Single shots may be a shorter, really simple action, but they may be one of the most dangerous actions for a kid to use. I've almost talked myself into moving him back to the bolt gun....will try to get some more shooting in this weekend.

357 magnum or maximum all day. The recoil isn’t that much plus the blood trail the 357 creates is always better. If recoil is a concern practice with 38 spl then on the day of the hunt switch to the 357. I guarantee he won’t feel the recoil when that deer shows up.