Howdy;

I hunted in the 80�s with a Browning Lightning Bolt, bolt action, in 25-06. Had it full length glass bedded and pillar bedded and the trigger worked and that sucker would flat shoot, I�d get cloverleaf like groups at 100 yards all day, so long as I let the barrel cool between shots. My load for everything was, as I remember, IMR 4350 and 120 grain Speer Hotcore bullets. I shot 9 deer in 5 states with that rifle and it was like magic, every time it went boom something dropped dead. The longest shot was on a Georgia Whitetail at 416 yards, right through the heart and he dropped like a rock. I know the distance because my partner had a surveyors tape with him and we measured it. That rifle was stolen in 92 and I never replaced it. Instead, I went to larger and larger calibers which I shot less and less well.

A couple weeks ago I saw a 25-06 stainless A Bolt at Bass Pro and picked it up. My first trip to the range I had a box of 120 grain Federal Fusions, 120 grain Core-Lokt and a box of the Federal 100 grain Ballistic Tips. The 120 grain bullets shot like crap but I was able to get some fairly tight groups, about 1 inch, out of the 100 grain Ballistic Tips. I looked up the twist rate and found that the Browning is a one in ten which is, according to Shilen, only fast enough to stabilize the 100 grain bullets. That seems to be born out so far by my first trip to the range. If I am able to get this new rifle to shoot the kind of groups like my old Lightning Bolt would shoot will the 100 grain bullet have the poop to work out to 400 yard on deer size game like those 120 grain Hotcore bullets, I use to use, and will they buck the wind as well?

Questions:

1. Is the 25 caliber 100 grain bullet a reasonable candidate to hunt 300lb Mule Deer and 200lb Whitetails at ranges up to 400 yards?

2. Which bullet would you use in a rifle of this caliber with this twist rate?

Thanks for any help on this.

Q#1-yep absolutely!

Q#2-100 TSX and 7828 and or R22

Lastly a 10 twist is the way to go in the 25/'s and it will shoot the flyweights to the heavy weights.

Mark D

A ten inch twist is standard for the .25-06 on factory rifles. I've seen lots of them shoot just fine with 120 gr. loads.
Any decent 120 gr. load or the 100 gr. Partition or the 100 gr. TSX. Works as well as anything for deer. E

+1 - but would also look at the 110 AB. Shoots great out of my Sako 25-06 pushed by my favorite....RL22.

I used to use a 1-9" twisted barrel with 117gr Hornady interlock boat tails behind 56gr R-22......

I've had good luck (accuracy and kills) with the 115 gr. Partition.

I like 100 grain Sierra GameKings in 25-06. I haven't been able to get any 25 caliber Ballistic Tips to shoot well in anything yet.

read here:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...&topic=0&Search=true#Post1268174

I have to agree on Shilen's recommendation on a 9 inch twist for 117 and 120 grain 25 caliber bullets. My custom .257 Roberts 3 inch chamber with a 10 inch twist Shilen barrel has shown a marked preference for 100 grain bullets. Compare the 110 Accubond, 117 Sierra BT, Nosler 120, to any 100 grain bullet and you'll see how long they are for their bore. Mine will shoot them acceptably, but will put the 100 grain Sierra FB into very small cloverleafs. If was to do it over again I would go with a 9 inch twist if I primarily wanted to shoot the heavier bullets.

ccrifles-how many 10 twist 25's have you worked with?

Many thx

Mark D

I use a Rem 700 25-06 with a 10 twist that shoots 100gr NBT and 85gr CT into 1/2 MOA with regularity. Have also shot the 100gr Sierra very well. I use IMR4831 56.0gr for the 100's and 58.0gr for the 85's. I have never felt undergunned for deer, but did order some 110gr AB and 100 TSX to try this year. Just trying to fit in with the crowd.

CK

That was my third (3) one that I personally barrelled and a few other factory chamberings I've reloading for, and I not saying I'm an expert just given my opinion. But I figure that Shilen has worked with more than most gunsmith shops, and their recommendation is a 9 inch twist for bullets heavier than 100 grains. It's just been my experience that a 10 inch twist usually shoots 100 grain bullets more accurate than 117s or 120s. I even tried the 110 Accubonds and 115 Noslers, and 100s beat those too. Most factory 7mm are 9 inch twist, 6.5mm is usually 9 or 8 inch twist, because of their long for bore bullets. I don't think a faster twist would hurt. If all I wanted to use was 100 grain bullets I'd probably just use a 243.

100 grain bullets make this caliber shine, a .243 can't push a 100 @ 3350! thanks fats

(100 grain bullets make this caliber shine, a .243 can't push a 100 @ 3350! thanks fats) That's true FATS with the 25-06 but not with the .257 Roberts.

I have a 1/10" Douglas barrel on my 25-o6 and it shoots 115 & 120 grain NP's just fine and equally as well as the 100's.

Certainly the 1/9" isn't going to hurt anything with the heavy bullets, but I question the need; all factory, and most custom barrels are 1/10".......that has to tell you something.

I've been very happy with the performance of the NP's on deer and if changing I would try the Accubond 110's (just got some) and the 100 TSX.

I think, if a gun shoots them well, the TSX might be the very best for the 25-o6, but again, I've not tried them yet.

Also for load development & paper punching, the NBT's have worked well for me, both the 100's & the 115's.

RL22, H-4831SC & Norma MRP are my choices for powders; Fed. 210M primers.

MM

Keez,

I concur with your choice of bullets. Speer bullets are just enough tougher than most other cup/core bullets that they provide significantly increased terminal performance. When going for heavier game I would choose the Speer Mag-Tip or Grand Slam. In any case, for any animal, I would NOT use lightweight bullets.

I hope you find another 25-06 to replace the stolen one. That story broke my heart. I checked the Kimber website for you and found that their 8400 rifles in 25-06 have the 1:10" twist rate. I also checked the Remington site and the M700 CDL is the same, as is the Ruger M77R MkII. I gotta believe with all those manufacturers making their barrels 1:10" that they should be able to shoot the 120 grain Speer. I'm just glad that my new Ruger M77 MkII 6.5x55 has a rifling twist rate of 1:8" bacause 140 grains is the LIGHTEST bullet I want to shoot.

A buddy has a Rem 700 Sendero that was giving him troubles. I suggested working up to a load of 50 grains of IMR 4831 with the Speer 120 grain bullet. He tried it and was ecstatic! His gun now shoots 3/4" groups. The maximum charge in my Third Edition Hornady Handbook is 50.3 grains of IMR 4831 with the Hornady 120 grain Spire Point bullet. The Speer bullet should react very similarly. As always, start 5-10% below maximum and work up.

Best of good fortune to you in your quest for a good 25-06.
_

My Tikka T-3 Lite has shot every bullet I stuffed it with around MOA or less. It has a 1 in 10 twist. From 100 grain TSX, 100 gr BT, 110 AB, 117 Hornady RN interlock and the Hornady 120 gr HP, have all gone very well. Since my self imposed range limit is 250 yds, I use the 117 gr Hornady round nose for hunting. It lays the smack down just fine.

I know alot of folks shy away from round nosed bullets, but unless you are shooting serious long range, it wont make a major difference in trajectory. It has also been my expierence that they tend to open a wider wound channel faster then most pointed, non plastic tipped, bullets yet hold together for deep penetration.

MM,

Have you measured the twist in that Douglas? According to Douglas the tolerance on their twists is plus or minus a half inch. So you may be running a one in nine and a half. Not that it would necessarily make a big difference, but it's a possibility.

mathman

Mathman,

No, I have not measured the twist on the barrel.

You are correct, there is a tolerance on all of them, but I think the cut rifled barrels are probably the closest.

MM

[quote=
A buddy has a Rem 700 Sendero that was giving him troubles. I suggested working up to a load of 50 grains of IMR 4831 with the Speer 120 grain bullet. He tried it and was ecstatic! His gun now shoots 3/4" groups. The maximum charge in my Third Edition Hornady Handbook is 50.3 grains of IMR 4831 with the Hornady 120 grain Spire Point bullet. The Speer bullet should react very similarly. As always, start 5-10% below maximum and work up.


_ [/quote]

Hornady volume 11 lists a max of 53.8 grains using 4831 with the 120 grain bullet. Interesting is it not?

AGW

That's good info.

Take a look at Gary Sciuchetti's [sp] famous 30 caliber 180 grain bullet test report. Look at the results for the plain old Remington SPCL (roundnose). It is the only bullet in the test that performed flawlessly over the entire velocity range from 1400 to 3100 fps. Perfect mushroom and not a single fragmented bullet - all the way up to 3100 fps.
_

Yes, that is interesting. My Speer number 13 manual lists a maximum charge of 50.0 grains of IMR 4831 with their 120 grain bullets. This just further proves that the maximum loads in the reloading manuals are a guide, not an absolute. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT suggesting the data in the manuals are wrong or wimpy, just that results can vary between rifles and the people loading the ammo. I could show you several instances where maximum loads listed in reputable manuals are actually too hot (over maximum) in my guns. By the same token, some listed maximum loads are under maximum in some of my guns. Handloaders must NOT take published loading data so literally that they neglect to take proper precautions and learn how to recognize and interpret pressure signs. ALWAYS start 5-10 percent below the listed maximum.

But then, you already knew that, AussieGunWriter, so I'm preaching to the choir again. I did it on purpose though so folks don't get wrong ideas about published data. You understand. In fact, from reading your posts on this forum, it is obvious that you understand a great deal. I enjoy reading what you share. Thank you.

Post edited to add the following:

AussieGunWriter, the maximum load you mentioned in Hornady volume 11 - was it with H4831 powder or IMR 4831? As you know, those two powders are NOT the same. The heavier load you mention would seem more logical with H4831 because it is slightly slower burning than IMR 4831. The maximum loads that I posted were with IMR 4831. Please recheck your reference and post the answer lest we lead anyone astray. Thank you.

_

Big Redhead;

I still get angry when I think about all of the guns that I had stolen, the 25-06 hurt but I also lost the first 22 and the first shotgun that my father bought me.

The 22 was a nice Browning auto that he got me for Christmas when I was 12 years old. He was laid off from the factory at the time and I know that he sacraficed to buy that little gun for me.

When somebody steals a gun like that they are stealing more than just wood and steel, they are taking a little piece of something worth a lot more.

I have a Ruger M77 in .25-06 with a 1:10 twist. With this rifle, Speer 120g Spitzer SP, and IMR 7828 I have a running group average of 0.606 inches. That is a compilation of about 20 groups with the smallest being 0.504. With the same bullet and VV N160, I have shot a 0.421 and 0.366 group.

With 115g Nosler Ballistic Tips with both IMR 4350/4831 and Reloader 22, I have shot multiple groups under 1/2 inch.

I suspect a 1:10 twist for 25 caliber is adequate for heavier bullets (115-120g).

thanks ccrifles for pointing out my mistake! Meant to say cartridge! Keez just shoot what the hell you want out of 25-06 it will flatten them if you do your part! The main thing is it works for you stick with it because if you read everything here you will be second guessing your equipment forever!

Absolutely, good idea.
Hornady does not stipulate which powder was used but in the 1970's it was most likely the original war surplus 4831 which is definitely slower than the current and recently departed batches of 4831.

Something also to watch for, is that although there is a general feeling promoted among handloaders that the manuals are, or can be a little light on for maximum loads, I have actually seen examples where the loads quoted were way past frozen bolt stage for loads I had worked up in several rifles, the .416 Weatherby coming immediately to mind.

This is one of the reasons I do not review or use manuals any more.

AGW

Keez,

I've bonked more than a few mule deer, whitetail and antelope with the .25-'06. You really need look no further than the 100-grain Ballistic Tip and RL-22.

The 100BT really electrocutes game animals, does minimal meat damage and shoots flat.

My experience has been that the .25-'06 is at its best with 100-grain bullets. This keeps the trajectory flat and the recoil low. If you use 120s, you might as well be shooting a .270 beause the recoil is noticeably heavier and the use of heavy bullets compromises the trajectory. The big .25 really shines with 100-grain bullets, so use them.

You are really not giving anything up by using 100s. Heck, even the Ballistic Tips almost always exit on big mule deer. The penetration is fine and the killing is superb...use the 100s.

Steve

That's right. Heavier bullets make a small gun perform more like a bigger gun.
_

The heavier bullets are not an option so far in this particular gun, maybe I'll find a 120 grain or 117 grain bullet that will shoot as well as the 100 grain bullets have. I have ordered some reloading equipment so I'll see if I can improve things going that way but ultimately this caliber is about accuracy for me. If the 100 grain bullets shoot best out of this gun then that is what I will shoot out of it. Besides, that will just give me an excuse to build a new one with a faster twist.

I was mainly interested to see if other hunters had confidence in the 100 grain bullet being able to take deer at 400 yards and that seems to be the case.


I appreciate everybody sharing their experience with me, it helps.

Dogzapper is right on the mark.

Absolutely no problem killing big whitetail or mules with either the 100-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip or the 100-grain Hornady Spire Point Interlocked at 400 yards. Just shoot them clean through both lungs and they are totally dead-right-there.

I've done it many, many times and the .25-'06 with 100s is excellent.

Steve

So I supose you think JB would be better off with a 120 grain ballistic tip the next time he goes moose hunting with his 7x57. I don't buy it. You'll never convince me the BT is anyhting more than a varmint bullet. I've tried too many of them too many times on too much game.
_

Spoken like a true Field and Stream subscriber who's never tried the combo he's commenting on....

Nosler differentiates the "varmint" BT's and the "larger game" and for deer I would never, ever feel undergunned using a BT on them. Frankly I've never recovered one from a deer as they zipped through...

Preach on Mr. Dogzapper...

-Greg

The question was about mule deer and whitetails, and Dogzapper's answer didn't say anything about moose hunting.

As a matter of fact, I killed my last moose with a 120-grain Ballistic Tip out of a .280 Ackley (3,400 fps MV). The range was precisely 91 yards, he ran out of the bush and stood in the middle of a farm two-track. I shot him exactly under the chin and the bullet removed a vertabrae (C-2 or C-3) on the way out. As far as I know, the Ballistic Tip is still in low orbit of the earth.

Perfect performance; bang-flop kill and maybe a half-pound of lost neck meat.

No, my choice for mooses would not necessarily be the 120-Ballistic, but I was hunting whitetail and they happened to be in the rifle. [bleep] happens.

I've killed more than three hundred head of big game with Ballistics and Hornady Interlockeds and I have no complaints. You'll get no apologies from me.

Steve

i used the winchester factory 270 load of a 130 grain ballistic slivertip on mo. whitetails. as i type this i have 2 jackets i've recovered from deer. both deer mature does 1 shot at 75 yds and one a little over 140 yards both were drt. the entrance holes were fist size. i was a gut shot angling toward the chest and the other was a lung shot.
i like the bt, but from my experence their hard on meat, and a little fragile. i've killed over 30 deer with these loads, but have returned to regular plain jane cup and core bullets as i feel these are more consistent and dependable.

Me thinks I should call Mr Gilbreath in texas, and get him to finally build me that prize 25-06 that I have always wanted!

None were asked for or needed Steve. My comment about you not mentioning moose was directed toward the apples and oranges nature of the "BTs are varmint bullets only" post. But now you've gone and said they work on oranges too.

mathman

Friend Mathman,

Sorry friend, I wasn't actually replying to your comment. I used the dialog box at the bottom of the thread, rather than hitting "reply" to a particular person.

You and I really think alike and have had similar experiences.

Steve

A few notes on what has been written already:

Big Redhead, the only Remington Core-Lokts that stil have the heavy jacket sidewalls of the original Core-Lokt are the round-nose models, such as the 180 RN used in Sciuchetti's test. All the rest have much thinner jackets, due to a manuafcturing (cheaper) change made in the late 1980's. This does not mean the 120-grain .25-06 CL factory load is a bad one (I have killed a bunch of deer with it to nearly 400 yards) but that we cannot extrapolate S.'s test to any pointed CL.

I have had excellent luck getting heavier .25-caliber bullets to shoot tiny groups in anything from a long-barreled (23"+) .257 Roberts n up. Below that velocity lever (say 2900 with 120's) and 100's do tend to shoot better in any .25. I would, however, get a 1-9 on a .250 Savage if I wanted to shoot heavier spitzers.

After using just about all the common .25's for deer for a long time, I have also come to the conclusion that 100-grain bullets will do it all, something I would not have said a few years ago. One thing rarely mentioned about the 100 Ballistic Tip (or indeed any lighter BT) is that the lighter weight means a higher jacket/core weight relationship. In other words, there is relatively more jacket than core thasn in the 115 .25 BT, which means a higher percentage of weight retention and, in general, a smaller diamter mushroom.

I also have had excellent luck with the 100 Nosler Partition and 100 Barnes Triple Shock. When driven at typical .25-06 velocities (or anything from handloaded .257 Bob velocities to .257 Wby. velocities, say 3200-3600 fps) all will do just fine on big deer.

John Barsness

I can only say that Nosler must have made significant changes in the BT's since I tried the originals years ago. After my first experience with them (l00 grain in a .257R) I have never used them since unless someone gave me some, then they were shot up on paper.
I know, you shouldn't make judgments on the basis of one experience. I simplified my life and use partitions in every caliber I hunt with and have never been disappointed in their performance.
How many threads have been written about various "new" bullets which the manufacturer continues to modify. For those having unlimited budgets and unlimited animals to try them on maybe this is okay. I guess I'm just old fashioned. When I find something that works I stay with it.

Mule Deer;

Just to make sure I understand correctly;

At what velocity range would the 25 in either the Nosler Partition or Barnes Tripple Shock work reliably on deer size game, I guess that makes more sense than asking at what range, e.g.: 2,000 fps - 3,600 fps ?

Thanks
Keez

The Nosler Partition, in any weight and in any caliber, is NEVER a mistake. Absolutely trustworthy under any conditions.

Steve

I concur and I've give more than one critter what I call the "Nozler Nap" over the years.

Be it via a PT or a BT both will do the work just fine.

Mark D

Can anyone tell me what Nosler has done to make the BT reliable in a l00 gr. .25 caliber bullet? Or in other light calibers for that matter. From what I saw of them they were nothing but an expensive varmint bullet.

BR where can I fine the 180gr. 30 cal. bullet report. When I was growing up that was a very popular bullet for everything.

Never shot the BT 100gr but have shot a few deer with 100gr partitions. Worked great, never recovered one of them.

Shot 150gr BT in my 7mag for many years, never recovered one of them either. Had nothing but perfect performance. I don't make a habit of shoulder shots however. Save them for the BBQ pit .

Jim,

Nosler has made minor adjustments to the jackets of Ballistic Tips over the years. I have no idea what the adjustments are called in the Nosler Plant, but among gun writers, it's called "Generations."

The .257" 100-grain Ballistic is either Fourth Generation or Fifth Generation, depending on the source. It is a remarkably tougher bullet now than it was just a few years ago.

My wife has used the 100 Ballistic in her .250 Ackley for many many years. While it always worked well, it was interesting watching the bullet work better and better, penetrating further and further with each couple of years. She commonly killed about ten big game animal per year with the rifle, so we had an excellent sampling and lots of dead animals to autopsy.

Today, the .257" 100-grain Ballistic is a heck of a fine bullet.

Those remembering the Ballistic Tip BOMBS of the past will never believe, and that's all right with me. They'll eventually die off and a new generation of hunters will eventually appreciate the BT for what it is.

Waaaaay back before the Ballistic Tip was in the hands of the public, I was a member of the test team for the original bullets. They were .30 caliber 150-grain and had a black polymer tip. They really looked cool, but they would darnednear cut a deer in half. In fact I shot one four-point mulie in the center of the neck and was amazed to see the head fly off.

The Ballistic Tip went through about three years of testing before it was released and each individual bullet has gone through much "tweaking" since.

My 2006 Duramax is totally different than my old (and beloved) 1978 Silverado; I would venture to say that the Duramax is better . The Ballistic Tip bullets are the same; Nosler is quite actively working on them, making them better, and better, and better.

Steve

I have a few deer that died to 90gr barnes x and the 100gr tsx. the 100 gr tsx is safe to 400+ in my opinion. I took a whitey a couple years ago at 370yds with a 90gr x bullet.....pass through. Many 25's will not shoot heavier then 100gr bullets well, at least in my expierience.

This guy was taken with a 165gr. Nosler BT out of a 30-06 at 75 yards. If you look close, you'll see the bullet hole just below right between the eyes where I was aiming. I doubt I'll duplicat this again so I snapped a pic because well, nobody'd believe it otherwise. I know this topic is about the 25-06 and 100gr BTs but this should help some folks feel better. I don't care how big the deer is, a noggin is a noggin and this guy took it like a champ. Exit was under the chin just left of center and about quarter size (12-14ft up a treestand). Since Dogzapper's already un-PC'd head/neck shots, I feel somewhat safe in posting.

Just an update, I loaded some 100g tsx and was able to shoot yesterday at the range. My load consisted of 52, 53, and 54 g of IMR 4350. I loaded the 54g just for fun because I thought it may be alittle hot. After shooting the 52g then the 53g without any signs of excessive pressure and improving accuracy- I decided to shoot the 54g loads. Man am I glad I did. My average chronographed velocity was exactly 3500fps from a 24in Ruger M77 .25-06. I shot two groups measuring 0.436 and 0.338 inches. I had no signs of pressure when shooting as well.

I also shot the tsx into dry magazines and found the bullet and 1 petal laying beside it. The bullet itself weighed 86.2 grains and the bullet plus petal weighed 94.3 grains. This was at 100y so impact velocity was still screaming.

I may have found a whitetail/mule deer load. I may talk myself into trying that into Mr. Elk as well. I am interested to see what the trajectory of this combination will be, that fast with a BC of .370 should be pretty flat.

don't be affraid to shoot elk with that load at all! I know a few guys that use the 2bit for elk and are very successful. you will need to be a bit more considerate of shot angles, prolly not the best load to shoot one in the doughnut with but any decent broadsideish shot is going to put him on the ground.....and quite aways out to boot.

That's interesting. You found the bullet laying beside the newspaper's??? And it only retained 86% of it's weight, I was under the impression they maintain 100%.

Ask and ye shall receive. The file is attached (I hope).

It looks like the file may not have attached properly. Let me know if you have any problems retrieving it.

There are good reasons why 180 grain 30 caliber bullets are popular - THEY WORK. I consider a good 180 grain bullet in one of my 30-06s to be the absolute best deer hunting combination bar none. The Speer Hot-Cor is my favorite. If there is a deer I want to shoot and he is in range, I shoot it, and it dies. Period. Any angle, any range. No bullet failure, no lack of penetration, no "bullet penciling through" without expansion. Just reliable performance. Maybe that's too boring to some here, but when I want to go hunting and kill a deer with no fanciness or excuses, I take the absolutely reliable, no excuses, no fanciness gun - a 30-06 with 180 grain Speer Hot-Cors.
_

Don, the bullet was in the magazine and the petal was lying beside it. Impact velocity was very high.

Okay, "the 120 grain BT for moose in 7x57" argument was pointless. Been a little out-of-sorts lately (you know, life) and felt like arguing. Pi$$-poor argument, eh?

I still prefer tough and "slightly heavy for caliber" jacketed bullets though. I am of the "fool me once..." sort. Maybe I'll give the BT another try some day. Maybe.
_

"One thing rarely mentioned about the 100 Ballistic Tip (or indeed any lighter BT) is that the lighter weight means a higher jacket/core weight relationship. In other words, there is relatively more jacket than core thasn in the 115 .25 BT, which means a higher percentage of weight retention and, in general, a smaller diamter mushroom"

MD: does this comment apply only to Ballistic Tips? It seems counter to the conventional wisdom of "for a given design, a bullet with a higher SD will penetrate more, etc..."

I would be very surprised if you aren't WAY over maximum pressures with 54 grains of H4350- My Nosler manual shows a max load of 51 grains for a max velocity of 3350-
The fact that you are not experiencing pressure signs means absolutely NOTHING other than the fact that you are probably under 80,000 PSI-

I'm not MD, but maybe I can help. Even though they're both Ballistic Tips, since the 100 grain bullet has a higher percentage of jacket to core than the 115, the "given design" isn't really a given anymore. Am I making any sense?

mathman

IMR 4350 not H4350, 52g is listed maximum but TSX since the groove-you can load 1-2g more.

southtexas--

There are many ways in which bullets will vary slightly from overall rules.

And some BT's are deliberately built with heavier jackets, just for certain purposes. The 120 7mm is one, and the 180 .30 (and anything bigger) another.

The longer I hunt the more exceptions to everything I find....

JB

well, dang, why does it have to be so complicated?

Reminds me of the old Ogden Nash quote: "No generalization is worth a damn. Including this one"

Let's see now..... The original question was; "25-06 load for mule deer and whitetails"..... That's not too complicated for my simple mind. Try the 117 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter #1640 IIRC, with a healthy dose of RL-22. My Ruger 77 loves it... So then I love it too. Not that a good hundred grainer wouldn't work on Mulies & Whitetails. It's just that my Ruger prefers stuff in the 115-120 gr. range. YMMV.