Just wondering... SeaRun? Dober? Any ideas?

-jeff

Stirring the pot a little?

It's all he has. Ignorant folks attack what they don't understand and can't do. Amazing how quick fools embrace their shortcomings. If he can't do it than apparently nobody can. Got $20 says he has velcro sneakers also........

Would anyone use a 270 shooting 150gr Barnes TSX's on elk? But half the bullet weight and .054" less bullet diameter won't work for a critter 5 to 8 times smaller.

The initials are aprapos...

You know...I have been off the campfire for a while but you wouldn't have an alter-ego between flippant and glib would you??

Jeffrey are you making faces at the other kids again.

LOL...

Ok now that's funny

Spot

You think they ain't....

sorry jeff but thats funny

It is funny! :-)

Who's attacking? I'm asking an honest question... if .223 is so great, why use anything else? You get a VERY compact rifle, low recoil, less noise, less expense... man, it's just PERFECT!

Or... isn't it?

I ask this because several people I noticed standing up for .223 on deer obviously DO primarily use something else.

Now... where are those dang velcro sneakers anyway... :-)

-jeff

Cuzz I can.

It also keeps me from guessing.

That's certainly a pretty good reason... gotta love choices...

-jeff

But other than just "cuzz I can" is there any rational reason for a healthy (not injured) man to choose a .223 over a bigger caliber, for deer hunting? Can we focus here, please? :-)

-jeff

Is there a reason for a man to use a 270 on deer over a 223?

I've used both and one kills just as well as the other. Have you?

Not to mention the countless rounds I shoot in a 223AI cuzz it's cheap, no recoil, and it's fun. It is also nice watching everything in the scope as it happens when shooting a critter, not something you can do with a 300 Roy.

If you get an answer,it'll be shallow...

OK I will stir this pot....does the 22-250 kill with hydrostatic shock? Do you get more hydrostatic shock with the 130 grain 270 at 3000 FPS or the 22-250 with a 60 grain bullet at 3500?

.223 is a lot of fun, I shoot a lot myself too.

How much speed do you pick up with the AI chamber?

To your first question- yes!

-jeff

Cain't say I understand it but cain't say I'm suprised...
You've never used a .223 on deer but dismiss it as a "stunt"...
Then you say ".223" users are "touchy" b/c we call you on your Field and Stream Reading "experience"...

Then you purposely put this trolling thread up here?

Let me explain one thing, I am not defending the .223. I'm defending something that has proven itself over and over again from someone who has never used said item yet feels compelled to have the "experience" needed to make a call. This "something" could be a .223, a knife, a backpack, a bullet.

I'd quit now as this whole situation makes you look very bad my friend, FYI...

You got my southern country boy attitude all riled up tonight....grin...

Joe the guy next door shoots them with a 220 swift, he says I like to throw big rocks while he likes to electrify and shock them with his 220 Swift. We both get deer so I don't know if the big rock theory or the hydrostatic shock theory is correct. (more pot stirring) I have found that every deer I shoot dies, he lost one this year he shot but did not tell me where he thought he hit it so I guess no conclusions.

This one time at band camp.......

This one time... at deer camp.......

I'm rolling....Twice...

Greg, it's all in good fun on a Saturday night. Besides, I called it a BIT of a stunt. :-) Heck the first time I tried a Ballistic Tip I felt like I was trying a bit of a stunt, being a Partition guy. If I hunted deer with my 44 mag pistol, which I've come real close to doing a few times, I'd be feeling like it was a bit of a stunt- because it's just not as good for killin' deer as my main rifles are. What I'm calling a bit of a stunt is just handicapping yourself on purpose for whatever reasons.

But, think about what I'm asking here. Why WOULD anyone use a .270, or a .308, or a 30-06, or a 7mm-08, or any of these calibers, if .223 does the same thing? It's a serious question, sort of. :-)

BTW, I have an answer to SeaRuns question if he still wants it. It's not at all hard to come up with reasons why a .270 is a better deer caliber than a .223.

-jeff

so why did ya ask then

-jeff

Either will do fine, but I think that Mass matter and a 243, 25, 264, 270 280 300 etc just have more MASS, but thn again its shot placement, but I like adequate MASS and good shot placement

Use an AR and double tap them.....

More keyboard diarrhea from the guy who knows the least, and posts the most...

When we were in high school and learning about the 'finer' things in life we used to get drunk and do really stupid chit(who didn't)...

I remember the time we challenged my buddy to chug an entire bottle of vegetable oil. There were chicks in the room so of course he did it.
Dumb [bleep] held it down until he puked it up.....

LOL

Jeff-I've used em both and they both worked. If you told me I had to use one or the other the rest of my life I'd never miss a step. I'd just get to filling up the ark.

Honestly I've seen it done enough with the 223 to know how to do it and what kind of limitations I need to put into play. Funny thing is I can the same the same thing for the .270 and for myself and my ability as well.

If you said Dober take your lil Kimber 223 and hunt deer/lopes the rest of your life and you can't use anything else I'd just ask for a sharp knife and a supply of 53 TSX's. It wouldn't bother me one iota. And I guarantee you if a tag didn't get punched it wouldn't be because of the round it would be from choice.

I've hunted a fair bit with the 223, 22/250 and the Swifto and I've had no issues taking game with them. If anything when I am out running amuck with one of the .22's I go into predator mode even more. And that aint a good thing for critters.

Now past 300 yds I would prefer a .270 but that isn't to say that the 223 won't get it done at those ranges as I know darn well it do. And on a serious once or twice in a lifetime hunt for big bucks at long ranges I'd prefer a .270. But once again if you said ok you have this slammer tag for muy grande venado but you have to use your .223 I'd be out the door and now.

They'll both work and they both have limitations just like me and anyone else.

Dober

That pretty much sums it up for me...

+2... The .223 would greatly modify the type of shot I would take.

BT

I'll stir. +3
I'd rather have an edge and be prepared for that long shot if need be then be low on kinetic energy when I needed it. I don't think there is a better all-around deer round then a 270.

2Seventy

SRR,
How is the 75gr swift compared to the TSX? I was getting 3000fps from my AI but accuracy was not real hot compared to the 75gr Amax.

I like the 75gr Swift very much, shoots fine out of mine. The are running just shy of 3K.

Good to see the thread is thriving in the proper spirit of debate..

Mark, I thought you said that well and it's hard to argue with. Lucky for me, I'm not arguing here <g>. IF we could only have .223, then that's how it would be... we'd all adapt to the limitations of the cartridge, and we'd all figure out how to use it. We'd go out and kill $hit. Same could be said, I suppose, of muzzleloaders, or 32/20's, or .357 magnum pistols. Compared to a club, they are AWESOME weapons.

My problems with the .223 for deer are the double-whammy of range limitation, coupled with a necessarily smaller wound channel. If I'm giving one of those up, then I want the other one to be there in SPADES.

-jeff

What's the furthest you have shot a blacktail? No range limitions with your 358?

So you have seen the wound channel, blood trail, damage that a 223 can do to a deer firsthand? Tell me about your experiences, I'm very interested.

SeaRun, my .358 does indeed have range limitations (probably ethically could be used further than a .223 though!). But like I said, if I'm giving up one thing, I want to get the other in spades and the .358 does exactly that.

I havn't seen the blood trail in person from a .223. I've seen pics of some nice exit wounds that looked like they'd bleed, I freely admit it.

But to go to the title of the post, I chose the .270 for it's iconic value as perhaps the ultimate American deer rifle, and because it is similar in velocity to the .223. For that reason, they are comparable, much more so than the .223 and .358 (though that would be fun, too). Basically, anything the .223 can do the .270 can do better. Not only does it have more reach, but if you load them with the same bullet and drive them essentially to the same speed, the 270 is going to do "more" when it gets there.

The real question is "does the .223 do ENOUGH to qualify as a deer round?" and I think the answer is yeah, sure. I'm curious to try it sometime on one of our little deer here. But the big qualifier is that the hunter is -let's face it- taking on some extra challenge for whatever reasons. He could be choosing (as the vast majority of us indeed DO choose) to put a bigger hole in the deer.. to deliver more ft/lbs or hydrostatic shock (if you believe in that sort of thing)... to have more reach... to have more margin if things went haywire and a rodeo ensued... and on and on and on.

'Course the .223AI, now that's a whole different beast. them boys are baaaaad! :-)

-jeff

Dober has stated the case about as well as it can be stated. Also the bigger/heavier bullet is less (note I said less) affected by wind at distance than the lighter smaller bullet.

I am not real great at reading wind way out there.

BCR

Waaaay back in high school phys. ed class they used to put two guys in the free throw circle with football helmets on and gave them short padded clubs. The guys would hold left hands, and stand there and just beat the living crap out of each other with those padded clubs. Game over when one combatant fell or got forced out of the circle. Maybe we need to do this for you two guys..........

naaa,one of 'um belongs in the girls class

a better question,who comes up with all these stupid questions?

been answered a hundred times in the last thread...........

Shame I missed this early on. Had it been serious it would have been about a stupid thread. But we've had so many threads here that are funny/crazy, it doesn't matter. Don't wanna read it? You got keys on that keyboard, go to something else...

In reality to me, the question is pretty dumb really, much like th initial 223 question. You boil it right down to can you do it for the situation or not. MOST of us know when to pass and when not to. My 6mm AR is about like a 223 AI power wise.... Its all I use generally speaking on most hunts. I bought a 50 beowulf for knockdown in swamps. Guess what? They still run(because I refuse to break bones and waste meat) Point here where do you draw a line? If 22 will do it, why not?(legality generally) If a 223 or 22250 does it why not(I know a 220 swift shooter thats killed more deer in his life than most folks will ever see.... loss rate zero so far.) If the 270 is panacea, whats the 06 for? But of course the 300 mags will do it better/further. As will a big 338, or a 50 bmg(dang doe ran off from mine... but didn't live)

Pick what you want, learn to use it. Ignore the rest.

I know limitations of my 6mm and 223. Just like I know the limitations I put on more important hunts, where, IMHO, you'd be ignorant to use any plastic tipped bullet.

Course its always fun to read these threads when one has spare time and watch the veins pop out on the necks... Makes good reading. And good debate. Course some don't want to debate, they just want to be right.

Now where is that head vs neck shot debate thread at again? I gotta go work on the boat some more.

Jeff

That's easy stupid people ask stupid questions...

Okay you got me? If one were shooting tsxs or 80+ grain bullets out of a 22 CF with decent velocity I cannot think of a single reason why someone would use a .270 over a .223. But then again most of my info regarding the .270 comes from the MDWFP/forums where everbody knows that a .270 will only wound a deer. But seriously, I would take that .224TTH with tsxs or 90gr bergers over the .270 win with 130s anyday for my little sausage gatherin trips around my property. I have never seen a bullet proof deer round these parts. I have a neighbor that has some tales of one....but he shoots a 270 so I kind of ignore his accounts of these elusive critters

If a guys comfortable with a 22 and can shoot can't see why it wouldn't work.The bullets nowadays make little cals kill pretty darn good.fwiw

A .223 for a Youth, Elderly, and Physically Handycapped person it would be a good choice as long as shots are keep 200yds and in!! For the rest of us (IT'S JUST A STUPID STUNT)You owe it to the game your hunting for a clean fast kill! Please you people at home reading this STUPID [bleep] shoot enough gun. Like a 243Win and up!
Randy.

The better question is why would someone use a 223 with all the 270's out there?

okay I guess I am just stoopid. I dont see any difference between a 90gr .224 bullet going 3200fps and a 90gr .243 bullet traveling at 3100fps. I dont see a deer knowing the difference with only 19 thousanths diamater difference. Wouldnt the .22 cal have a better sectional density because of its length? Yet people still claim a .243 does a fine job on deer but any .224 is not enuff gun. Now as far as the .223 win it may be a little under powered IMO, but I see lots of arguments here for slower bullets, like all the arguments touting the 06 as superior to the .300WM
I am actually asking here. Because I am building a 22-6.5x47 lapua to shoot the 90gr bergers and the 70gr tsxs for deer at 3000+ fps specifically for shooting south eastern whitetails. I shoot a lot of different cartridges for whitetails from a .300wby to a .223 win with a 06, 06AI, 280, 280AI, 308, 243, 243AI, 7wsm, 6.5x47 lapua, 6-6.5x47 and 270AM in between. But am thinking that the 22-6.5x47 with the heavy bullets should be just as effective on these little deer as a .243 win. I know that a .243 will kill any deer walking even at extended ranges. I shoot the 115s from my .243AI and have taken deer out to nearly 500. It seems kinda simple to me, shoot any deer in the boiler room with just about any bullet, and it is gonna expire shortly. After all it is a small thin skinned animal and shot placement is key with any round. I am not doing this as any kind of stunt I am doing it because I feel that it will be an ideal round. In truth I feel over gunned even with a 06 for whitetails....they just are not that tough.

Well, here in Virginia that would be illegal. Can't use that small of a caliber for large game. Unethical as all get out as well. Would be just fine and legal for varmints and predators.

If you mean unethical as it would kill the heck out of them little va whitetails....then I agree with ya I will remember to bring my .243 when I head up to VA to hunt. I hunt in orange county VA about 15 days/year.
Please explain why it would be unethical.....like I said I must be stoopid I dont see a difference b/n a 90 gr .224 and a 90gr .243 going the same speed. Unless you think that shooting a deer with a .243 is unthical also, please explain the difference....cause I dont get it.

So if it works for some people out to 200 yards does it loose velocity when shot by someone else? Either a round delivers proper terminal ballistics or it doesn't regardless of who is pulling the trigger.

Yep, that one ranks right up there.

I kind of figured the shooter's doing the killing, not the caliber of gun being used.

The real question is not why .270 vs .223, but why it was asked.


Battue

Said it before stupid people ask stupid questions...it's as simple as that.

Didn't ya know youths, elderly and handicapped squeeze the trigger gentler than the rest....

Hey guys...

The question was asked for a very simple reason:

Seems like a significant number of the ".22" guys actually use something else most of the time. They do this because they know that the "something else" is a better choice than the .22. Yet whenever the .22 debate comes up, suddenly the .22 is the bee's knees of deer rifles.

So I flipped the question around to try and get a clear answer as to why a person would choose perhaps the ultimate common deer rifle- a .270- over a .223, if the .223 is that good.

Seemed like a good idea at the time! :-)

-jeff

Your full of schit,ya just want to start another pissing match...Grow up

I've had no problem killing deer with .22 CF's, but I would never, never use a .270 for anything but pests. As a kid I read too much Elmer Keith and not enough Jack O'Connor.

Because California requires .24 caliber or larger to hunt any big game!

Right.



Wrong.

DING!

Give that man a cigar!

Of course, the sound of the "ding", probably sent some velcro shoes scampering to see if the fries are done....

I have a 223 Rem. but will probably not ever use it for deer as I have several other rifles, two pistols, and a bow to use on deer. I have a hard enough time using what I have in a 3 month deer season on deer not to add another. I do believe it'd work, given proper bullets and more importantly, proper shot placement. I just can't see using it to prove what's already been proven several times over. I'm sure it works just fine, but I'll use what I've been using for years on deer as I'm boring like that. My personal stance is that I don't care what someone uses as long as it's legal and they use it well!

Perhaps what I'm going to add to this conversation is germain - perhaps not.

I grew up shooting big guns. "Big" for a kid anyways.

I learned how to shot MOA with a 760 Remington pump in 30-06. Now that my Dad is gone, I still use it - it has a metal butt plate. I think I started to get pretty good with it around 12 or so.

When I bought my first rifle (at 16) with my first paycheck - it was a Model 70 Winchester in .300 Winchester Magnum, as I just had to have something bigger than my Dad. I shot it into MOA too.

Then a fellow gave me a pile of old Weatherby brass - so my .300 Winchester became a .300 Weatherby. I could still shoot it into MOA.

To make a long story short - a lot of time, and rifles and different cartridges went under the bridge since then. A lot of game was taken too - living in central B.C. as I do, it's easy to rack up big numbers.

I never kept a diary, but I wished I did, because then I could state things with certainty, instead of relying on memory. But, my memory tells me this.

I had a custom rifle built for me. It was a .22 CHeetah. It was a money-no-object kind of deal. It was about 15 lbs, it had a "Tooley 1000 Yard" stock, a 30 inch bull barrel with a 1 in 16 twist, and the best of everything in between. It has only ever shot ONE weight and brand of bullet - ever. Moly-coated 53 grain Barnes X's. It shot those bullets into a 1/4 MOA and it spit them out at 4285 fps, 15 ft in front of the muzzle.

I used it in clear-cut log blocks for Mule Deer and in alfafa fields for White Tailed Deer. The shortest shot was about 15 yards. The longest, a measured 385 yards.

I've shot over 20 deer (I'm pretty sure it's over 25 now) with that rifle (but now it's "normal weight" with a slimmer 26 inch barrel and a Boyd's Laminate Thumbhole stock) and not a single deer made it 50 yards from where it was hit. About half of the deer died in their tracks. One big running buck - summersaulted into a plowed field so hard he buried his antlers in the soft soil.

Going by memory, and including a LOT of deer shot with 25-06's, 30-06's, 7mm-08's, 7mmSTW's, .300 Winchester Magnums and .300 Weatherby Magnums - it's my opinion that I got more in-the-tracks kills, shorter distances when running off, and quicker kills with the .22CHeetah - than with ANY one of the other cartridges shot.

And a lot of "blood under the bridge" flowed before I discovered that.

I know it should be that way (unless you've read P.O. Ackley and his burro experience) - but it is.

Why? I wished I knew.

I wouldn't think their trigger squeeze would be any different than anyone else's, as long as their lighter-recoil needs were met if they had any---and these three classes of people just might.

Lots of folks have shot chucks or pds with a 223, lots of folks has seen what it does to them.

Doesn't stretch minds much to wonder what happens to the inside of a deer/lopes chest once the 223 bullet enters no does it?

Just a thunk.

I wonder, should I ask what people would think of a 25 grain Barnes in a 17 Rem on deer or lopes? Nope I shouldn't as it might stir things a bit much and I already know the answer...<G>

Dober

Wow....

Also I'd like to add this.

A lot more 53 gr. Barnes X's when shot from fast .22's will penetrate deer fully, than average 30-06 bullets will penetrate Moose fully.

And, a .22 caliber hole completely through a deer's lungs is a LOT bigger (percentage-wise) than a .458 sized hole is if it completely penetrates a Moose's lungs.

If a fast .22 with a good bullet, isn't a deer cartridge - then a .460 Weatherby definitely isn't a Moose cartridge.

Brian,

The original poster wanted a pissing contest.

That's all this thread is intended to produce.

Facts, won't change that one bit.

Somewhere along the way here I got the impression that the people against using the 223 on deer are not aware of the performance of the tsx's or the partition...or the even heavier "other" bullets mentioned.

Right. The ones most vocally against using something, are almost always the ones without a f'kin' clue as to what it actually can/will do.

Kind of like people telling you how to sight in, when they don't know the difference between trajectory and line-of-sight. That one...oh never mind.

Yeah, something like that....

Reckon this should be nominated for quote of the year...

Say my name. SAY MY NAME!

Uhhh ... Jeff_Olsen?

GE

You know ... I looked at this thread and thought "Popcorn".

Read a couple posts and went straight to the Bleu Cheese and Jalepenos on Triscuits with Coors Extra Gold.

I love the 'fire!

G: Me, too! Glad I couldn't sleep well;.... I learned a lot tonight!

Jeff

BTW know your max range..... it was commented... My far reach with the 223 so far has been 565. 75 amax. DRT. It didn't limit my range. But I had the knowledge to make the shot and place the bullet. With 4 other witnesses present..

Jeff

This thread kinda reminds me, why use a 340 Roy for griz when you got a pefectly good 25-06.

Yep, deer and grizzly are so much alike.

[bleep], deer die easy.

Everything dies easy..It's up to the shooter to see it through.But yes deer are pretty feeble...

When I was a kid any rifle cartridge under .23 caliber was outlawed in Montana for big game. This was because a bunch of old farts got together and most of them had heard that the .220 Swift was no good on deer.

But you could shoot deer with a .243 Winchester and 75-grain factory loads designed for rockchucks--or hunt elk with a .30-06 with 110-grain bullets designed for the same animals. Don't laugh. I knew several people who did, and most of them ended up buying more rifle than they could shoot well, because the .243 and .30-06 weren't enough for deer and elk.

Nowadays there are no regulations on what you have to use for hunting deer with a rifle in Montana. In fact, you can use a .17 rimfire if you want to. This is because the old guys finally died and the new ones decided that most people would use something that worked. They do--and a awful lot of them use .223's and .22-250's on deer and antelope, to a lot better effect than the few dip-brains who still use varmint bullets in bigger cartridges.

There are some of those left too. One of them asked me a couple years ago how come the 90-grain bullets from his .25-06 "flattened out" when they hit an elk shoulder. He still doesn't think .22's should be allowed, though.

Back in the 70s when I bought my first 25-06, worked up loads with just about every bullet then-offered in that bore size. Got a few bullets from anyone I knew that shot any sort of .257 cartridge, so it ranged from 75gr HPs to somebody's 120gr bullet (Speer, I think?).

The 75gr HPs were awful. 87gr Sierras worked very well (my woodchuck bullet for years, until the 100gr Btip came out). Worst groups of any bullet tried, were the 90gr Sierra HPs, with the 75 grainers next and 120gr bullets in third place.

One of the local gunshops once had a mess of ammo acquired from a going out of bidness sale at another shop, back in the early 80s. I bought several 20 round boxes of Rem. 87gr HP loads just for the brass, at maybe $5 per box. That stuff shot very well in the M700 I had at the time, only used them on 'chucks though.

Never figured out WTH a 90gr HP was intended for, but since they refused to go into nice, tight groups, never fussed with them again.

Next to the 87gr Sierras, the 100gr Sierra spitzer was the most accurate load back then and was my deer load for years. Now I shoot 100gr Bitps exclusively in the 25-06, for deer and long whacks at rodents.

Can we find common ground by agreeing that given a properly constructed bullet driven at adequate velocity and sensible placement, whitetails, muleys and blacktails are not particularly difficult to take humanely?

As a "meat hunter", I've never been interested in shooting deer from angles that marinate my venison in gastro-intestinal contents. If I'm pretty much limiting myself to chest shots, it doesn't take a lot of gun to "make venison".

why use a 223 when you can use the 270

Same here in VA/WVa it has to be 23 or larger (24 or larger in WVa I believe but would have to check) and the regulations are still in place caliber size.

I have 2 223 (Armalite M15A2 and a Bushy) both AR's I love to shoot them but with the other tools in my tool box I'd rather use something with a bit more to it.

There are some folks out here that use 22-250's and alike, even though they are technically breaking the law (I guess it would be bad form to turn in my son�s father inlaw lol)

-Edit Just double checked WVa:

It is illegal to hunt deer with:

� a shotgun using ammunition loaded with more than one
solid ball, or a rifle using rimfire ammunition of less than
.25 caliber.

� a fully automatic rifle, shotgun or handgun.

� a handgun using a straight-walled case of less than .357
magnum cartridge or a bottle-necked case of less than
.24 caliber.

� a muzzleloader of less than .38 caliber during the
muzzleloader deer season.

Jeff,

I believe you, but wow! How fast was that bullet still going at that range, anyway?

Perhaps the .223 IS the equal of the .270 as a deer rifle, if it's got 565-yard reach.

-jeff

Hey Jeff...

I hesitated to ask this, because this thread has been invaded by those who see the world through pissin'-contest-colored glasses and I don't want you to think that that's what this question is intended as.

But upon reflection, I think you and I have enough history that you won't take it that way, so... since this is the whole purpose of this thread, here's the question(s):

If the .223 is so good from close to so far, why would you chose anything else, if indeed you do use something else? What do you normally use? What would you take to "deer camp" in Colorado?

Thanks!

-jeff

SeaRunRainbow,

Was there any reason other than just gun-nutiness (which is certainly understood and allowed <g>) that you chose to use a .270 in this case:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1922594

quote SeaRunRainbow:

"Killed one deer at 125 yards with a 140gr 270. Bullet exited, broke shoulder coming and going, deer died. No surprise."

Just curious. Certainly, I would be in agreement with a person choosing a 270- so I have no issue with it whatsoever.

-jeff

What a tool....been here less than a year and almost 3500 posts of drivel

I see ya thought better of it (deleting your last post) realized I hit the nail on the head?

Nope! PM sent.

-jeff

Jeff: You asked a question and received 91 replies. Not all have been constructive, but most have. They amount to a considerable amount of actual hands on experience both in time spent and results. However, they are starting to get repetitive.
So now I have a few questions for you. What have you learned? Has it enforced or changed any of your previous opinions on the subject? Did it influence what caliber you will use in the future? Does bullet selection with the .222�s make that much of difference i.e. weight, construction? What did you learn from this tread that wasn�t covered in similar previous threads? Just wondering, because if that many people took the time to respond to a question I had, I would feel obligated to at least acknowledge their effort, time and experience.

Battue

I've answered that before, because I can. The last 20 deer, 4 bears and a 2 wuffs have been shot with 12 different cartridges and 13 different rifles, that way I don't have to guess about [bleep].

Almost forgot, deer die easy. Drill the shoulders with a GOOD bullet and critter dies.

Like a bolt action rifle, it just don't get more simple.

Fair question, Battue, and thanks.

I have come out of it thinking that I will probably fill one of my doe tags with a .223 next year. I have access to land that has a lot of does- in particular- on it, or for that matter I could shoot one of the tame ones that hangs around our property (my wife is finally pissed enough at them to allow it <g>.) Anyway, I'd like to see for myself how it works, given the number of people who have reported not just success but resounding success with it. However, I will use it in a situation where I can really contral the variables- hence the doe tag on the private land, because I still feel it's far from ideal for the reasons I've alread stated.

So that's one thing. I'm also very suprised- and I might have to eat some crow on this one- that there are people I trust reporting DRT results out to almost 600 yards! I personally don't see it as a long-range deer round, but if Rost95, dogzapper, etc- both of whom I trust and respect- say it works, well then... maybe it works.

My faith in the TSX as a penetrator has been reinforced. Can't wait to try one on meat.

Finally, I have learned that folks are very reluctant to actually debate a position once they are dug in. IE, very few folks addressed the POINT of the thread- why use a .270 if a .223 is so good- even though most of them don't actually use a .223 as their primary rifle! Folks will start others calling names rather than give an inch of "ground"and that's frustrating to me as someone who likes to debate- but I guess I shouldn't be surprised as it's human nature to bristle up when challenged.

-jeff

Fair 'nuff.

-jeff

In california you can hunt big game with any centerfire with "softnose or expanding bullets"

I addressed it. Drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies. I haven't seen one bit of difference between deer shot with a 223AI, 8x57, 35 Whelen (strike that one, cuzz that deer went the furthest with little damage), 270, 250AI, 30/06, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Savage, 6.5/06, 7x57 etc. They all died and died quickly.

+1 TRILLION

Some years back I helped clean a deer that had been taken from a poacher. The warden said it had been a kid with a 22lr, shot was from an estimated 300 yards and after emptying the mag. 1 shot had hit the deer. Hit it in the neck and there was very definatly an exit. I argued with him a bit about the range, but he stood fast at his estimate. Don't think it was an X bullet in those days( 30 some years ago), but it had punched clean through. Guess that means it wasted some of it's energy downrange!
My Father-In-Law told me that back in his youth in Arkansas they used to complain about the loss of meat to the mighty 22 Hornet. Guess it all depends on what your background and experiences are as to what makes a "good" deer cartridge

Dude

This is the best hunting website on the internet! I love this place! Here we have a post started to stir the pot, and we get the whole 9 yards of everything from real data, real experience, rancor, name calling, disenchantment with closely held belief systems, refusal to admit in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are wrong, inexperienced shooters telling guys with millions of rounds downrange and dozens of animals on the ground that their whole experience is BS, vehemence in arguments over .02 inch differences in bullet diameter, personal attacks, personal dumb-azz statements, the same questions over and over again (I am guilty here), and entire cultures of belief centered around this optic or that optic, this rifle, or that rifle, or caliber. Chitt this place is EXACTLY like the campfire at my hunting camp. For the record howver I am with Dober, I would not feel all alone in the deer woods with a 223 and Barnes bullets, I kill them with pointy sticks and a 223 with a 60 grain bullet is so much more�.

Now THAT is a good post!!!

And a seriously long sentence.

But it was soooo right on...

I'm hurt that it ignored our shaherazad on American Pie references.

GE

After reading all these posts on this thread I am thinking that shortly in the future I might get my hands on a .223 bolt action rifle and load it up with Barnes bullets and whack a deer next year......I'm sure of the results.

You'll shoot a hole through the deer and it will die, that much is as certain as these things can be...

-jeff

Yep, just want first hand experience with it.

Out of curiousity, will you consider yourself limited in any way, compared to oh.... let's say... a .270?

-jeff

Hope not.

One thing is I don't like to "drill the shoulders"; I try to stay out of the shoulder. I don't know if SeaRun means that literally or not. If drilling the shoulders is necessary with the .223... that's a bummer.

-jeff

I dont know if he meant to "drill the shoulders" either but I do know that if you did and blew through both front shoulders busting them, the deer would have a hard time travelling very far.

True, but that's a high price to pay for that IMHO! I know the TSX is reputed to be easy on meat, but still. Dunno. I'm sure someone will chime in and make it all clear soon enough.

-jeff

Unless it's total destruction, say by a 300 Ultra with an easy expanding bullet, some meat damage and "jelly" doesn't bother me. My preference in tracking jobs is as short as possible, so busting them up some is fine by me.

Tom264,your good to go...I'd feel quite confident now that Jeff says so......

Yes I do agree...I would much rather have some meat damage and recover the animal than to have little or minimal meat damage and not recover said animal.

I drill the shoulders regardless of cartridge, at least get one shoulder into the mix. Barnes generally don't jelly stuff up like other bullets I have used.

Interesting that you shoot shoulders on purpose. Nothing wrong with that, I get them pretty regularly because they get in the way, but as a bowhunter of 35 years I tend to avoid bone even with a rifle. Other than the obvious "break down" factor, do you think the little gun performs better for you with a little "bone contact"?

Here is the exit on a dink, no bone hit sans a rib on the way out, 62TSX.



Hunting deer/bear in rain forest with the thickest stuff I've ever seen and 15' of rain a year on average can make things a little sporty if you don't break them down....

Yep...looks like everything else!

I have not shot a lot of big game with the .223, other than head shots on hogs. I did shoot a 22-250 for a while, but quit because the thing is just too destructive. I think most of the controversy has been spawned by the shooters who don't understand anything about rifles and bullets. You know the ones I'm talking about, "with a 1" sight-in they're good to 1000 meters, SOLDIER OF FORTUNE said so." and "I use it 'cause I can get good hunting bullets for it for $65 per thousand at any gun show." (Not to mention the many, many kids who have just made BAD shots that are blamed on the cartridge.)

"Hunting deer/bear in rain forest with the thickest stuff I've ever seen and 15' of rain a year on average can make things a little sporty if you don't break them down.... "

Agreed to a point... I switched to the .358 for just that reason. Have not shot the shoulder with it- in fact I've NEVER shot the shoulder of a deer except once- but I love the way they either just give up and lay down and die, or else leave buckets of blood to follow if the they do run. I've posted this before so pardon me please if you've seen it... but this is the exit from ye olde .358, also on a dink (smaller than SeaRuns dink, I'm sure.. this was the smallest legal buck I've ever seen much less shot, d'oh!):



Anyway, just a data point as to why I personally will choose a big bullet through the lungs, rather than a tiny fast bullet through a shoulder- if the end result is roughly the same.

-jeff

What's the difference?

A tiny fast bullet(soft point no less) through the lungs will also work. Deer/antelope might run 50 or so yards so probably not the best idea for the thick stuff.

It is amazing that the simplist things get so "difficult". Are we bored or is is something else?

It is this easy...
Pick a bullet capable of getting to the vitals. Insert bullet in vitals. Animal dies. Period...

Does not matter the size of the projectile upon entering the vitals...

Folks, it is that easy...

Pat this was not directed at you BTW...

Thanks for the disclaimer Greg, at first I was worried that you thought I was ONE OF THEM.

You're not?
grin...

You get your freezer filled?

Pretty much...thanks to feral hogs. But, you know I haven't put much venison in the freezer! You had to make me say it in front of all these guys huh? :))

My bad...grin...

Drill shoulders, break schit, and it's easy. Don't matter what you use, if it'll break schit going in and coming out.

Take out the running gear, and critters have a hard time getting away. Blasting shoulders ain't good for lungs, either. Jelly lungs, plus broken running gear = dead deer, right where it stood.

Hard not to like that.

Gmoney,

I think it's BOTH boredom and something else that gives the .22-for-deer threads their legs! :-)

While I think what you said above is mostly true, it's not that simple, either, IMHO.

First, where and when does the animal dies does matter. The death of the animal is important but so is the timely recovery of the animal. So simply "inserting a bullet into the vitals", while it will kill most deer (see the thread on "What have you found in a deer" for some interesting bullets found yes, in the vitals of various game animals) might not kill them in the way that some of us might prefer. This is not a slam on the .22 CF. A non-expanding bullet of any caliber inserted into a deer is way less than optimal.

Second, I think it does matter (the size of the projectile). A 60-gn .22 bullet at an impact speed of say 2800 fps is just plain different than a .33 cal bullet at an impact speed of 2800 fps. Whatever any of us think is happening with the .22 bullet, MORE of it is happening with the .33 bullet. Assuming similar bullets. This gets into the "margin" that Dober (a .22 CF lover) and others have mentioned. And it's why I created this thread to begin with.

Another factor that I consider important, and especially so if one is indeed in the habit of drilling shoulders, is what the projectile does to the meat. None of us like meat jelly. Fast bullets tend to jelly meat and most folks would agree that if you are going to use a .22 on deer, use one of the faster ones. A rifle like my .358 does not require that I drill the shoulders, does not require laser-like bullet speeds, and does not require a fancy all-copper bullet to just plain work.

Please note that nowhere here, there, or anywhere have I said that a .22 CF won't kill deer. I think I've said that about a kajillion times but some folks like to throw up straw men and beat on 'em. Furthermore I'll say this again since it's been a while- folks should use whatever makes them happy.

My opinion was, is, and remains, that there are much better tools for the job than the fast .22's, if the job is killing deer. There are valid reasons to chose a .270 over a .223 for deer hunting IMO.

-jeff

Jeeze....
All this from someone that has ZERO experience shooting deer with a .22 caliber center fire...You know what you know because you read somewhere,something? Classic Field and Stream expert....

Jeff

The reality here, if you keep on about where they die, how fast they die etc... it all boils back down to shot placement... IF you need it anchored, CNS. No questions asked.

As to impact etc from the bigger rounds, mind you I don't know how many deer I've shot, but generally 3-5 each year since about 75 or so plus who knows how many hogs...... I"ll say this, I had WAY more DRT results with my 243, then moved up to a 300 wtby and 180s or larger, Probably 95% of the deer from the 300 ran like hell..... Probably 50% of the 243 deer moved after the shot. Same shot location.

OF course if one thinks the 270 is it, by all means use it. I happen to generally hate that round for some reason, I have no legit reason though. But I've owned 2, never impressed me and I just don't like it.... but then again I'm sorta of 2 schools, I have my smaller "meat guns" and my larger SHTF guns. Never have been much of an inbetween man. And I sure don't consider the 270ish area a SHTF round. That stuff starts heavy at 30 cal and runs up into the 338 plus arena.

BTW if you have some spare tags you should snag a small gun, stick a right bullet into it and be amazed, shot placement does wonders, the good bullets make up for a lot of old wives tales about the small rounds.

And then think forward about MZ and bowhunters, they deal with the fact its generally 9 out of 10 times, run...

Jeff

"A non-expanding bullet of any caliber inserted into a deer is way less than optimal"



Not true. Any caliber?

Dude.........

Apparently he's also never seen what a hardcast bullet from a 44, 45, 45/70 etc can do to a deer, but that's ok cuzz it won't stop him from guessing..........

Hey, if he's got valid reasons for choosing a 270 over 223, I'd like to hear them. A little evidence of experience would help.

Luck

I"ll go this much on non expanding bullets.... into vitals of deer. I was very much NOT impressed at all with a 50 cal 647something grain FMJ in Feb 07..... I won't be using that one again. Can't comment on 20mm and above though.

Jeff

Sounds awfully pointy...unless you shoot it backwards. I believe 458 Win has done that.

Yep it's a broad meplat that does the damage, not the bullet diameter per se. A 50 cal LBT type flat nose really does them in. A buddy of mine has drilled a number of them with a 500 Linebaugh revolver.

I've never shot anything with a 223 but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with one. There's been plenty of proof just in this thread alone that it can and has been done by many here for many years. I've shot plenty of game with a 270 and don't consider it a "quicker" killer than any other caliber. Any round can get'er done but if the driver isn't up to the task then it don't matter if he's shooting a 223 or 416, critters will find a way to escape if not properly shot.

True dat! Got me there.

-jeff

I remember you mentioning that one time, Jeff. And then someone else chimed in about blowing a deer in half with a 50-cal AMax IIRC. What were the details of your shot again?

Thanks for being here on this thread Jeff! Always appreciated whether we agree or not. I don't like .270's either- no good reason, just never did it for me. I chose it for this thread because it's the iconic deer rifle if there ever was one, and is a reasonably close match to the .223's velocity, so that would in theory help keep the discussion from digressing too far into differences that are attributable to velocity.

But that didn't work out so well. :-)

I should have been more specific about the non-expanding bullet part since this thread is well-populated with straw man abusers. Since it's a thread about .22s and .270's and the like, didn't occur to me that someone would bring up slow, flat .44's and 45's. I love those!

-jeff

Very ironic that you say that....

50 bmg shot was FMJ, total broadside, about 2 inches behind the tight shoulder crease, somewhere between 200 and 300, I forget, as they kept moving, I kept clicking up a click now and then.

At the shot she took off down the sendero, and cut in gone.

We found the scuff marks of her hooves, no hair!!(and thats damn hard for me to believe to this day) and no blood. Followed tracks alone till they were mixed up, took the only left cuts into the brush and she was down one of those about less than50 yards in. Dead in midstride. Perfect 50 cal hole cutter punch hole in and out, through lungs. A bit of blood where she fell.

Funny, we went back to the scene again, looking backwards(I'm methodical about blood trails and autopsy, I learn every time usually, more to store for future situations. Found where the bullet entered the brush and could track its path through trees for probably 75 feet or more, almost to the ground where it was lost in a pear patch... was hoping to dig it up....

Amax OTOH, COULD expand..... I have NO experience. Other than I have Barnes X bullets in 50 waiting to be loaded... As to blowing one in half... after reading that the FMJ would knock em down(and really deep down believing that was bull) and my experience.... well....

NOW a 55 fmj in a standard non fast twist bolt gun in 223, those I"ve seen deer shot with in the ribs... looks just like a soft point, small in, larger out, damage in between and VERY dead deer. Don't know why though. Other part, 7.62x39(why do I have to have one.....) and FMJ surplus ammo, ain't shot a deer, but man does it turn rabbits literally inside out... skins big parts off them etc....

What you THINK might happen in each case, by assumption or reading, is not always the case. Some thigns work better or worse than you think. AS to that, the 270 is a good deer round, I just don't like it.

Jeff

I prefer the .270 Improved, AKA 30-06... but that's a different contentious debate!

I would have sworn it was on the thread that you mentioned that happening with the 50 BMG that someone had chimed in about the AMax... guess I'm mis-remembering.

-jeff

Thanks for the PM...

You just think way too much about things that are just plain and simple.

If you jump from a 30 story building you're just as dead as if you jumped from a 100 story building. You may just be flatter and messier.

Point is you're trying to define levels of deadness that just doesn't exist. It is beyond ballistic gack.

You use what you want to use for your preferred killing needs but don't tell me that it is a stunt to use a different tool when you have never used said tool in said application. Paper can only get you so far my friend.

Whoever put in your mind the idea that .223 requires drilling shoulders to kill reliably is quite wrong. I think you misinterpreted SeaRun's preference of shoulder drilling to mean something else. I am a behind the shoulder shooter and stuff just dies.

And if you think a .223 requires a laser speed and an all copper bullet to kill you just know better. This is quite laughable as is this whole "discussion" really.

I don't participate in discussions regarding killing elk as I've never done it. Hell I've never killed an elk but sure hope to soon. You'll not see me discussing how hard it is to kill an elk, what people are supposed to use to kill an elk, and then calling it a stunt when someone uses a caliber that I deem too light judging from my inexperience and reading magazines. It is quite simple why I do not partake in these discussions: I have not done it. Even if I have done it, for me to make valid conclusions about it would take years of experience. Take this to mind if you will...

It is this simple Jeff...

Take care...

Greg,

Thanks for the reply.

The TSX has been a constant in this thread, hence my mention of that. It's also my belief that most guys hunting with .22's are driving them fast, but that's just based on what folks say in general. Lot's of 22-250's, that guy with the 22 Cheetah.. etc.

Anyway... later!

-jeff

Most intelligent thing you've posted,hope ya mean it....

55gr. BT's in the lungs work too, so does a 50gr. Soft Point.
The BT from a buddy's 22/250, the SP from my 222.
There, fast and slow, and no TSX? Niether would be a first choice for shoulder shots, but then I suppose most 270 shooters don't choose a 110 V-Max either, but since I don't know, I can't say.

"I promise here and now to not open this topic again". If I break it I will hunt with a .270/22 with jello bullets. There: the pain is gone!!!!

Battue

-jeff

I love how folks embrace stupid.

Is this finally dead?

Ive been following this from the get go.

Its been beaten enough.

Keep using those .22s...they just plain work!

Here's one to get some folks howling.....

An acquaintance of mine owns a high fence "hunt preserve" in the Texas Hill Country. He has a dude from out of state that builds his own pneumatic air rifles and likes to test them out at his place.

Usually he's shooting some big bore..... but on occasion he has taken blackbuck doe out to 20 yards with a .25 caliber air gun shooting 27gr. lead bullets at 900+fps. He also killed a 130 pound sow with the same set up....

Not as surprising as the Ayatollah of Push N' Pullah being gone...

In Colorado, minimum legal requirements for centerfire big game are 6mm caliber, 80 gr bullet, and producing something like 1800 ft/lbs at the muzzle...


Casey

Alpine beat me to it. A .223 in Colorado is small game rifle only.

So basically its a ground squirrel caliber.

Hoot

" would anyone use a .270 for deer with all those .223's out there? "

Ill pretend thats a reasonable question...altho Id suspect its just meant to get a responce

my 458 LOTT loaded with 600 grain solids will kill deer also, that in no way makes it a deer rifle, Ive seen deer killed with a 223 rem a couple times, and shot placement has alot to do with the results just like it does with my 458 LOTT, but the IDEA is to use a caliber and rifle sellection that will work at all reasonable angles and ranges on the game hunted, and the 270 win loaded with a decent quality 130-140-150 grain bullet will work under more conditions,angles and at longer ranges, next time you get a chance stack some bundles of wet plastic wraped up phone books out at 400-450 yards with an orange dot placed on the bundles, on a windy and gusty day and see which caliber is both easier to hit with and which provides the most consistant penetration and expansion.
theres a reason millitary sniper teams use 308,300 win,50 browning rather than a 223 rem, they are more consistantly effective at extended ranges, and when you absolutely need the first shot to count thats important

Here's a couple of bucks my old man killed years ago.

He killed this one with a Browning 222,with a Sierra 52 grain HP.


He killed this one with a Weatherby 22/250,same bullet IIRC.


Now don't nobody go tellin these deer they were killed via a stunt.Might hurt their feelers.....

WB.

My grandfather had a nice mount he killed on whats now called North Myrtle Beach, SC. He took it with a .22 LR. while netting fish one day.

Anyone want to buy my 30.06?

Big difference between a 40gr lead bullet in a 22LR and a 62gr TSX doing 3300fps in a 223AI.

Course some are more comfortable going from A to Z....

Wonder if David asked the masses if the rock he had was big enough to kill Golaith...or if he needed a bigger slower one...

Simply amazing the emotions this old argument evokes.

It's of course not an agrument about the 223 as a deer round or not. It's about guessing.....

There you have it folks...

A friend of the family back in the 50's bought a 22 Short,most likely to poach something with.He took it out to the edge of the landing he was working on to sight it in.Just as he sat down,a black bear walked by.One shot and it had all four feet sticking up in the air.

It was the Kalifornia state record for many years and weighted around 550.

Some Eskimo woman killed a record book grizzly with a 22 Short as well,IIRC.

It's not so much what your shooting,but bullet placement.Several elephants have been killed with the 22 LR-and at least two were with body shots.

So one would think a 223 would kill a 100 pound deer just fine....but thinkin is what gets folks in trouble.

WB.

One of the best responses I've seen. Well said.

First, saying something like the difference between a 270 and 223 is "only .053" is a useless reference. That's like saying the difference between a 7-08 Rem and 338 Win Mag is "only .054". It goes well beyond the numbers and we all know it. If anyone begs to differ, anyone with a chance to hunt 1,000+ lb brown bears gonna take the 7-08 over the 338?

I have shot deer with the 223 and 270. In the hands of an experienced hunter/shooter, it can be effective, no doubts about that. But while it can be effective, I don't think anyone can say it's ideal either. It, like any other cartridge has it's limitations and if a hunter recognizes that and stays within them, they can do very well.

But what about the times when conditions or distances are not ideal? One area I hunt is farmland where 300+ yard shots are possible. Add that to we don't always get the perfect broadside shot and get difficult angles. Can a 223 penetrate to the vitals at a quartering away shot at 300+ yards? Maybe, but reliably? Not as reliable as a 270. I know of one guy who shot a mule deer buck with a 223 and after a hunting partner was able to get it with his '06, they found a rib had deflected the 223 and prevented it from penetrating the vitals. He said he'll never again use a 223 on deer. Angle? Bullet selection? Distance? I don't know but I've yet to hear of a 270 being deflected by a deer rib. But in all, if you're an experienced hunter and have had success with a 223 and know it's limitations, I say more power to you, it's your choice (where legal). Use it and enjoy your hunt.

One day someones going to match the size of the game, the distance of the shot and the choise of bullet perfectly. He'll shoot the animal and the bullet will pass through and just break the hide on the exit side and fall right beside the animal.

M1Garand,

With you 100%, good post.

I also like Garands! :-)

-jeff

I hunt with a 270. It was the first rifle I ever bought. It is a little heavy hunting from my tree stand but it works well. I have shot two deer though that had to be tracked. Both were hit just behind the facing shoulder and broker the opposite shoulder. Both ended up running over 75 yards. It is a sick feeling to be tracking in dense woods with lots of leaves around and loose the blood trail. I was lucky in that both those deer were shot in the morning. I was able to start walking large circles from the point where the blood trail ended and eventually located both deer. There is no way I would hunt deer by choice with a 223. I was amazed how those bucks took a 270 shoulder shot and still ran that far. Just imagine the feeling of having to track a buck shot at night with 223? It's not that 223 bullets aren't out there that would drive a hole, it's just from a ethcial / game recovery standpoint why make that choice when calibers like 243, 25, and 270 are available...

i have tracked with a good trail with a 30-06 and thought I would
never found them, and I lost one with a high shoulder shot from a 30-06 with a 180 soft point bullet at less than 50 yds, but I blame me not the caliber of the bullet. Too many are killed by buckshot and bows for me not to shoot a .223 with today's bullets
! Get out the popcorn!!

Only had to track one deer hit a bit off with a 223AI (all others have gone from 0-5 yards). The blood trail was easy enough for a blind man to follow.

If that's the case it's a .50 cal 385 gr Great plains bullet.... shot a buck,went to where it stood at the shot and found the mushroomed bullet on the ground...

Dvdegearge,

There's probably some sort of .22 muzzleloader that you really should be using, instead!

-jeff

Maybe since I needed to find that deer and shoot it again....but instead I'll go on facts and attribute that to a deer shot a bit too far back...

Our lease is 55,200 acres with 260 hunters. I get my share of tracking deer in a years time. I have observed over years if someone can't find their deer, its mostly because they went looking for it to soon.

I wait 20 to 30 minutes if I know it was a perfect shot.

But I love to track almost as good as I love to hunt.