I thought about carrying my cz 527 american 223 instead of my 30-06 on opening day,but I have decided to carry the '06 at least till I fill my buck tags.anyone else?

I'd carry the bigger '06 hammer for buck hunting, just in case a longer or angled shot presents. When you can pick and choose, the smaller round will do the job, as I found out last year. I may try a .223 up in WI if I fill my buck tag early this year. It did a wonderful job on a Texas doe last Fall. As usual, bullet placement and bullet quality are VERY important, IMO.

fluffy, I think you are making a wise move there. Obviously I don't know how good a rifle shot you are.
What I do see by you asking and your choice is that you don't have complete confidence in the 223 yet. That is no knock on you believe me. It takes use and some experience with that round used on bigger animals than folks are used to useing it on to be sure of what it can and will do.

On your part you have to have the complete confidence and the ability not to just shoot a deer but to be able to hit the spot on a deer you are shooting for.

With an 06 or the like you can hit a deer somewhere in the front half and more than likely put meat on the pole. Not so with the 22 centerfires. You need to pick your spot and be able to hit it.

I have never shot an elk in my life. Never will either unless I hit the jack pot or some kind soul takes pity on me. I tell you this in all seriousness though. Within my sure range of being able to hit the spot I want I would have no qualms of using my 22-250 on one. I'd kill him graveyard dead too. I have shot that rifle enough to know what it will do and what I can do with it. Not bragging just saying.

BCR

I've thought about using my .223 with 55gr Hdy SP's for my extra doe tag this year....haven't decided why I want to with all my other caliber choices.


Brett

By the way, has anyone used the 55gr Hdy SP's on a critter. If so how did they work as far as penetration?

Thanks,

Brett

thought about it.

I typically don't know what I'll be carrying until I reach for it as I'm heading out the door of the deer shack. I'll typically have my tried & tru M70 FWT 30-06 in the rack, along with other rifles such as an old M88 in .308, a M70 in 300 wby, sometimes even a .450 marlin... sometimes an encore in .243 win

Always depends on my plan at the time which is always based on the wind, weather conditions & things I may have learned about the deer the previous evening or earlier that morning. I've got my favorites for different stands or still hunting or for what kind of cover or land I'll be attempting to crawl through.

the legalization of the .22 centers in MN will likely just add one more rifle to the rack for me to choose from on any given outing.

For those of you that don't know, this year MN lowered the minimum caliber size requirement from 24 cal.(.243), to 22 cal. centerfire or bigger.

My .223 Tikka might get a little more experience than with just toothy critters!! The longest shot where I hunt is 100 yards, and I will be very selective with the shot.........Al

39 gr of Ramshot Big Game under a 53 gr TSX was doing a nice kind 3475 out of a 20" Win 70 22-250 Carbine last night.

Will load a couple more to see fer sure how they pattern before getting too committed to the concept.

Sure looks "right" with a 6x36 M8 tho ...

GE

I'll meet you at Kabekona coners and will bring my 22/250 and TSX's along...

Dober

By the way, hi to Tingy when you see him again

Dober,

Iffin' you're serious I AM THERE.

'Course opening weekend is for them "edibles" in the RRV ...

GE

Man if I could I would, I think that they still have the family farm but not sure.

Would be fun though, I sure love that country.

You ever fish the crick there for trout?

Dober

its just I have so many components for my 06,If I switch to something else for hunting,I will never use any of them.

Dober,

Haven't done them brookies in some time. Didn't do it well last time I tried with kids in tow IIRC. Not opposed to trying again, but so much water ... so little time ...

Then again, we have access to a patch of cover or two in these parts, should you come home ... we got a spot.

GE

Thinking on it. I will load some TSXs for the .223. If I decide to use them it will be head shots only for me. I have no question a .224 TSX will do the job if placed decently in the chest, but even a small mistake could mean a long tracking job. I consider the likelihood kinda slim though. I want to try some TTSX 130s out of the '06 and .300 WM. They interest me more. I have very accurate loads for both guns, and at the speed they'll hit with their penetration they should be as close to a perfect bullet as I am likely to ever see.

Putting one in the brain box out of an accurate .223 at moderate range is no big deal. Seeing what happens with a new bullet for the first time is a bigger deal.

You will never admit it but I bet one of you guys regrets using a .223 on deer this season. I know we are all perfect shots out here but the .223 is still marginal on deer.

I guess I haven't given it much thought. Maybe I might give my CZ 527 221 Fireball a try. It's deadly accurate and I have a few stands that are quite clear out to about 100-150 yards. What do you guys think would be a good bullet and bullet weight out of this little round(head shots only) out to 150?

I killed a deer last year with a 243/Barnes 85 TSX last year. That's not a whole lot different than a 70 grainer out of a .223. It took out the last two ribs on the left side going in. it took out the heart and lungs. It took out the first two ribs on the right side leaving the chest. It traveled through the neck most of the way to the head before exiting. Almost thirty inches of penetration. There was no recognizable lung tissue in the chest. The heart was laid open with all four chambers and valves fully exposed.

I don't care what you call it, as long as you don't call it marginal performance. I have killed and seen killed a lot of deer with 30-30s. They cannot match the destruction or the penetration of those little TSX bullets, much less even think about that kind of accuracy except in very special circumstances. They are not marginal are they?

I'd be willing to be there's some of us will regret using some of the bigger thirty calibers on deer this year. Some might not be as steady as they should have been. Some might choose the wrong bullet. Some might misjudge range in bad light. Some might have bumped their scope on a tree before the shot.

The right bullet in a .22 is hardly a marginal proposition. The wrong bullet in a much bigger caliber can be. I myself have always been a habitual head shooter. To me, it's more or less the same target size as the heart and If I can hit one I can hit the other with equal ease. I'd far rather shoot a deer with a .22 that will put the bullet where I want it than an .30 that shoots 4 inch groups, and I would be willing to bet that there is a hell of a lot more .30's out deer hunting that shoot >4 inch groups than shoot under 4 inches. And that doesn't begin to address shotguns and slugs. If you want to discuss marginal, have a good look at 3 out of 4 people shooting the kind of accuracy I just mentioned.

Don't know me very well do ya ... :-)

I publicly admit my shots gone bad so I and others can learn from the experience. I believe I posted the half mile track of a lost buck that I hit a little too far forward with my 7x57 last fall.

Ironically had I attempted made the same shot with a 139 Hornady instead of a 120 TSX I'd a rolled him right there. (The slower bullet would have gone further back and right into the shoulder/boiler room.)

In any event, I'll report the 22-250 experience be it good/bad/indifferent.

GE

Miles58,
You are right, shot placement is MOST imporant. A good shot with a small calibur is much better than a bad shot with a large calibur. I am hearing so many guys rave about the centerfire .22s that I must be out of my mind. I did witness a small doe lost to a good shot with a .223. We recovered the deer after seeing the buzzards flying in. Shot hit right behind the shoulder and the deer went about 300 yards with a very slight blood trail. My guess he was using a varmint bullet. I guess I need to get used to the fact that a .22 centerfire is a very legitimate deer cartridge. As for the 30.30 you would be amazed by the killing power of the new Hornady Leverevolution ammo. I would put it up against your 85 grain any day. A hunting buddy helped me skin a deer I shot with the new stuff and he insisted that I shot it with a 30.06 until I grabbed the gun out of the truck to prove I shot it with a 30.30. Awesome stuff

I killed a big doe with a 30-30 and the Leverevolution ammo last year. While it is better than what we have had in the past, it is no match for a 70 grain TSX out of an accurate gun. At least not in most cases. I think there may well be guns that shoot it very accurately. Mine doesn't. It's not bad by 30-30 standards, but it just can't compete beyond fifty yards. The doe I shot with it last year was DRT, but that's what happens when you take one in the back of the head.

Not really....

Not hearing the Whelen thunder just wouldn't seem right....

Sounds like I need to shoot a tsx out of my 30.06!

If you think you'll have a long tracking job with a misplaced shot to the chest, wait until you botch one of those head shots. You will find it dead a week later in a field because you shot in the nose or blew off a lower jaw.

Uncle shot one many moons ago with a missing lower jaw. It was January in MN, but she wan't well before the shot thats for sure.Much better off after it.

Why don't you think a 30-30 is good after 50 yards? Silly talk IMO.

Tom

benp,

What kind of gun do you run that Whelen through? I would like to find one in a Remington 7600. Wouldn't mind a custom job in a model 70 either. They sure are fun to shoot aren't they? Makes big holes and short blood trails too.

Tom

My 30.30 is good to 230 yards and most likely more with the new Hornady ammo. Would not be hisitant to surpass that either. Deer go down fast with that stuff.I hunt by myself most of the time and I do not enjoy a long drag out or a tough tracking job. The new Hornady ammo helps with both of these issues! A friend of mine shoots the stuff out of a .444 Marlin and it is devistating.

Hmmm, .22 centerfire not enough gun for whitetails...seemed to work well on goats and camels.

What happens after 230yds?

It would work as far out as you could hit a critter.

Brett

My 30-30 is a Marlin 336 carbine. No scope. Fifty yards is as good as I can manage with the bullet going exactly where I want it.

The gun is certainly capable of killing out to 150 with the Hornady ammo if the bullet goes in the right place. Beyond that it can kill but not nearly so certainly. You are still shooting a bullet that starts at ~2400 and isn't all that efficient even with it's little tippy (its still short and fat with a flat base).

For me, If I cannot absolutely put the bullet where I want it (within an inch) I won't shoot. I don't have to, I am over near Hinckley where we can shoot five apiece and probably should shoot at least that many for a few years to get them back in control. If I wait an hour another one will come by trying to commit suicide.

I loaded some of the tipped TSXs (130 grain) in my 30-06. Nine shots, 51, 52, 53 grains Varget. Single point of aim. Eight of the nine were inside an inch. The flyer was when a deer fly was chewing on my ear. 53 grains Varget gave me right on 3200. With that kind of accuracy at that speed Bambi is in big trouble out as far as I need to worry about. Bambi won't be shrugging one of those off. For my money that's as close to perfection as I am likely to see in my life. Dead accurate, non-toxic, TSX level terminal performance and a little better ballistics. The only way to make them better would be to give them away free.

230 yards is my farthest shot on a deer. Deer ran about 40 yards. I am sure it would work a ways further. Maybe even to 300 yards! Gun was made in 1953 and shoots great. It is a Model 336 and I love the thing. It was made for me. The only time it does not go hunting is when it is raining and then I take my Ruger stainless UL in 30.06. That is a nice gun too but I much prefer my Marlin

Miles58
PUT A SCOPE ON THAT GUN!! It should shoot like you want. Mine does. And I tell you it will kill nicely way past 150 yards.

Tom,

A 1988 700 Classic I bought new in '89 topped with a 2-7 Redfield golden 5 star. First rifle I bought on my own. I love it.

I never realized the following that the 'ol Colonel had until I came to the Campfire. It's awesome.

If I want to kill one further out than fifty The -06 will do and I don't have to worry about trajectory or anything else. Bambi can do the worrying part.

Brook trout up to about 14-16 inches in the beaver dams. The DNR worked on the upper sections and improved the trout habitat there. Still some gill lice, but there always has been. Wade the flooded areas behind the church/graveyard. The first time I fished that stream was about 1958. Have not been there in several years but friends and family still fish it often. Flies: bleeding Pass Lake, little brook trout, dry royal wolf or other attractors. They like red, white, and black. Lots of northern red-belly dace in the creek. Go get 'em.

Oh yeah, .22 centerfire. I have too many other guns and bullets to test before I try .22s. Yet, maybe the Hornet and 45 grain Barnes for a stunt on a doe. I'm not sure why.

[/quote]


A 1988 700 Classic I bought new in '89 topped with a 2-7 Redfield golden 5 star. [/quote]

A nice piece indeed. I could live with one of those too. I have the same scope mounted on my new to me .243 I just picked up last week.

A 7600 with a 20" barell, a Leupold 1.75x6 vari x III in matte finish, set in QD Leupold rings and bases would suit me just beautifully.

Tom

Oh yea the 06 will do a geat job. I can see keeping with the iron sights on the 30.30. My Grandpa may not have approved that I put a scope on his old gun. Although I hope he would be proud of the awesome shots that it has made due to the scope and the new Hornadys!

Amen brother,
Last year my buck came through the thick stuff at 7:15 am.
He was quartering away by the time I got the rifle on my shoulder.
I was using a 250 gr Speer. DRT, and I was not wishing that I had a 22 when the 11 pt buck of my dreams was in my sights.

I don't like head shots on moving deer in thick brush at dawn or dusk, which is when 99% of the shooting is.

Years ago I watched a friend shoot an antelope in the jaw with his 22-250.
Watching the bloody jaw flopping around and my friend scrambling to get another round into it left a bad impression on me.
No thanks!

My 16 yr old wil be using 150 gr FN bullets in his 30-06 loaded to 30/30 velocites (2400). This is a real pussycat in a 30-06 rifle and he covered three shots with a quarter last time we tried it.

I have been over killing deer for about 30 years and have no reason to use a smallbore rifle unless I get crippled or sick.
This year I am going to use a 375 H&H Magnum with 200 gr Sierra FN at 2200 fps. It is like shooting a 410 shotgun!

Others can try whatever floats their boat, it's still a free country, right?
whelennut

I've been using a 222Rem & 223rem here in Minnesota legally for a while now.

Tribal law allowed us band members more lee-way than the the Minnesota DNR.

788 222Rem with 70grain Semi-spitzer
788 223Rem with 64grain PP
AR-15A4 with 64grain PP/65grain GameKing

Never lost a deer but from the talk at the Two-Inlet store you need a 300winmag or they just run away with nary a blood trail.

Mike

whelenut; I've seen the same thing happen to an elk...it was shot in the jaw with a 30-'06, and luckily it ran towards me and I finished it off. Head shots are for those who can hit the part of the head that kills the animal, whether it's with a 22-250 or an '06.

benp,
I bought the same rifle as you! I wish it was the first rifle I bought, it would be the only one. The factory ammo situation is not the best but who cares I handload all mine. I have enough 200 gr roundnose Hornady bullets loaded to last me forever.
If I do run out I have some 250 spire points.
I don't understand using the 22 caliber on deer?
whelennut

Nut,
I'm up here on White Earth Reservation.
We've been legally able to use 22cal and buckshot for a number of years now.
Our season runs earlier than firearms season and lasts into December.
While calling pred's with a fawn bawl we get does running in from time to time.
For some of us it is a target of opportunity.
While on Uncle Sam's payroll I hunted in states that had obscure laws to a boy from Ponsford.

Common sense amongst hunters to choose what is proper for harvesting game makes some experts uneasy but the less we have to be regulated the better!

By the by,my primary is a CZ550FS in 9.3X62 with 250grain TSX!

Mike

Mike,
I hunt a few miles south of Red Lake Reservation. Many years I only get to hunt opening weekend, and some years it was bucks only for us. I wanted a rifle for deer, black bear, moose, and maybe an elk so I picked 35 Whelen.
Awhile back I got to hunt caribou, and the Native Alaskan kid at the Army Surplus store in Anchorage told me he hunts with a 223 Mini-14 for caribou. He hunted for the whole village.
I guess I am old fashioned but at 53 yrs old what can you expect?
Regards,
Jim

[quote=Bulletbutt][
whelenut; I've seen the same thing happen to an elk...it was shot in the jaw with a 30-'06, and luckily it ran towards me and I finished it off. Head shots are for those who can hit the part of the head that kills the animal, whether it's with a 22-250 or an '06.[/quote

I am considering on the proposition. My 223 will shoot more than accurate enough to do it out to 200 yards, but, it won't do it with the 70 grain TSXs I would use. I have put the lights out on a number of them with head shots. I have never missed yet and this will be my 49th year. My father taught me to do it and I taught my son. He's already killed three like that and none ever heard the gun go off.

You have to have a gun that will unequivocally do it. You have to be able to do it and you have to have a cooperative deer. I load my own. I won't keep a gun that won't give me less than an inch.

Over the years I have tracked and recovered and tracked and lost a lot of deer shot "in the chest". I have never tracked a head shot gone wrong. A three legged deer can go forever and a hell of a lot faster than I can. Last November I tracked a "chest shot" doe almost 1/4 mile and she'd already gone almost that far when I picked up the trail. You can miss shooting at the heart or the head. The good part about missing a head shot is that there are so many more misses you can make that the deer doesn't suffer for.