Out to distances of 300 yards...maybe 350..am I likely to notice any difference between the .243 and 7mm-08 on whitetails? I'm recoil sensitive and trying to decide between the two calibers for a new BLR lever-action.

No comment, but be aware that Neil Jones of Neil Jones Custom Products, can fix the God-awful trigger that it will come with... If it's an accurate rifle, and it probably will be, I for one think it's worth the investment.

Ok... A comment... I've killed maybe 8 deer with a 7-08. That's what I would get in a BLR if I was gonna screw up and NOT buy a .358 <grin>...

aint enough recoil in either to be concerned about...if it is you should slide down to a .22 cal as I hear they are great deer medicine with a TSX.....

I've used the 7X57 for many years on lots of stuff. I've seen several .243's do their stuff on lots of stuff. I've used a .240 Weatherby at distances so far that their bullets were traveling slower than the .243's would at 350 yds.
Unless you use varmit bullets on the deer, the only thing you might notice is that the 7-08 will punch a larger hole. If you use the heavier 7mm bullets, say the 160-175 gr. stuff in the 7-08, it will penetrate more. However, all the .243 bullets I've seen used on broadside shots went all the way through. All the quatering shots left nothing to be desired.
I wouldn't worry about it. To this day, the .243 is still a highly underated deer rd. Any 100 gr. load should do all that you'll need. E

Ive shot deer with em both and both are fine rifles the 7mm-08 kicks a bit harder and to a recoil sensative shooter the 243 is probanly the better choice and myself I choose this round to do all my coyote and deer hunting with and a deer & coyote killin machine it is,deadly accurate and light on recoil and easy to shoot,with a well placed bullet most game hits the ground with out a twitch like it never knew it made the transformation from life to death,243 winchester a top notch choice,dont leave home without it............

If your recoil sensitive go with the .243.

get the 243 and don't worry no more. my wife and her 243 our known in our camp as " death on skinhead ridge "

.243 all the way.I doubt you could ever see any noticeable differnce in killing power between either round,on deer at least.

I have trained blood trailing dogs for a large southern hunting lodge that kills around 200 deer a year.

Based on following actual blood trails,the 7mm-08 is a quicker killer,it makes a bigger hole and tends to put more blood on the ground.


Deer lung shot with a 243 tend to go farther than deer shot in the same area with a 270 or 7mm-08,that's what I have seen.

If you hunt in semi open country,it prolly makes no difference.
If you live and hunt where the woods can be thick and nasty,the 7mm-08 is the better choice in my experience.

The 243 will certainly kill any deer that walks,but there are times that the 7mm-08 will just plain stop them quicker.


I'm sure lots of folks will disagree,so flame away.

I don't disagree, but I also believe the bullet and the nut behind the trigger make a biiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

Yep,

Precise shot placement makes the 223 a great deer rifle,lousy shot placement makes a 300 magnum inadequate.

Some of the most experienced guys that I know are super deadly shots with a 243,but the typical guy who goes on a quided hunt is often not that great a shot.

The rifle that's perfect for those guys is kinda debateable,a 30-06 kicks them a little too much. A 270 or 7mm-08 is prolly about the perfect balance of killing power with mild recoil for a guy that shots a deer rifle maybe once a year.

My 9 year old daughter hunts with a 223 because it's all that she can handle,I quess the perfect choice depends upon the shooter and the circumstances.

I'm not a big recoil fan either, and my Rem 700 LSS in 7-08 is an absolute cupcake with 139 gr bullets. Many folks shoot 120 grainers with excellent results. I would have to think that a 7mm-08 w/ 120's would have to be the bees knees for you--killing power w/o much recoil.

I agree with ruraldoc, especially if you are looking for wounded deer in the brush.

And I agree with Steelhead. If you can shoot it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference what caliber you use given useing the propper type bullet.

BCR

Available bullets are better today, so my experience may well no longer be applicable. When I started deer hunting in central Louisiana piney woods ~34 years ago I started with a .243. After trailing a number of lung shot deer farther than I thought I should have to, I stepped up to a 280 Remington and that distance halved, more or less. Since that time I've not used any smaller bore size than a 270. Currently using a 7mm-08 w/120 gr bullet & love it. Mild recoil & kills deer very well, based on my (albeit limited) experience.

Not disputing anyone's assertion that the 243 kills well as I'm sure it does. For me, I'd get a 7mm-08 w/120 gr bullets & run with that over a 243 where I hunt . If you're hunting open terrain, it probably doesn't matter.

"Precise shot placement makes the 223 a great deer rifle,lousy shot placement makes a 300 magnum inadequate."

I like that!

About the .243 - it kills fine. So do the bigger cartridges. Shoot what you're comfortable with. I think we get too worked up about which cartridge to use for deer, they typically die pretty easily.

Regards, Guy

In general, with lung shots the 7mm-08 (and cartridges like it) will put deer down a little quick on AVERAGE than will the .243 or similar rounds. Of course some deer shot with .243's won't go very far, and some shot with 7mm-08's will. While hunting in Arkansas I once shot a doe with a 7mm-08 (140 Trophy Bonded at around 150 yards) through both lungs, and she went around 100 yards before falling. I have never had a deer that I lung-shot with a .243 go that far.

Mostly, however, I'd like to note that today's 6mm bullets are good enough to shoot deer through the shoulders/spine. This is pretty easy to do when hunting from a stand, though not always possible in all hunting. The only direction deer go with this shot is straight down. In fact a whitetail outfitter friend of mine here in Montana asks all his clients to use this shot if possible, because he'd gotten tired of tracking lung-shot deer through thick woods, no matter what cartridge they were shot with.

Actually the 100-grain Nosler Partition is just as good as any 6mm bullet for this shot, so "today's bullets" isn't quite correct. The Partition first appeared in 1948, before a lot of us were born. My wife has used the 100 Partition to drop good-sized bucks with shoulder/spine shots, and generally it exits.

I don't have much experience with the 6mm as I've killed less than a dozen blacktail and mule deer with the .243/6mm's. But I've taken over 100 deer sized animals with the .270,.280,.6.5-06,7mmRemMag.and 30.06 and I have some opinions. If you want quick kills on lung/heart shot deer with 6mm or larger calibers, use standard not premium bullets. Deep penetrating bullets have their place, just not on deer sized animals. The only exception might be Nos. Partitions which I classify as a premium.

I always think its interesting how mileage varies.While I certainly don't have the experience as some of you guys, I've killed several deer with different calibers, up to 7mm RM and 30-06, as well as slug guns and ML, and have seen friends using .300 mags.When I first tried a .243, I was worried about it being marginal.For me, I've yet to see any killing difference between it and any of the other calibers on lung shots, or any other for that matter.Wound channels are certainly larger with the bigger stuff, but the farthest I've ever had a deer run after being lunged with the .243 was about 35 yards.That seems to be about the average for every other round I've used.So I haven't used a different rifle caliber in several years now.Just like what the .243 does.

The .243 is my favorite caliber. It worked perfectly on my son's mule deer this year. 350 yards, right through the heart with a 85 gr. TSX. Complete penetration and tons of blood. Blood trail was about a 20 foot circle.

I shot a mule deer last year with a 7-08. It worked about the same as the .243.

+1

Either will get the job done out to 350 and the .243 will kick you less.

270

If you are not happy with kick then get the .243 and be happy. Bigger holes just don't always mean better results, I get a "kick" out of those posts that say "my favorite round ALWAYS drops them DRT" this in my unwashed and unschooled opinion is because they have not shot enough animals with "their favorite round" to have one or more run. I just shot my last deer of the season a doe at 22 yards with a 300WSM and Hornady 180 grain SP bullet with 63.3 grains of RL19 (a short cased about 30-06 velocity and the gun does not like 165's), I had to shoot from my weak side twisted up like a pretzel and thru a forked dogwood tree so I could not hit her in the shoulder, but was about 2 inches back from the crease, centered on the body, with the deer at an angle toward me as she was coming from even thicker cover, so the bullet angled thru her body coming out further back but still in the rib cage area. I could have let her move more but I was already twisted about as far as I could twist! My aim was steady, the conquest scope was on 2.5X and I had checked it out the week before by shooting a beer can at 75 yards. The shot looked good when I fired but the doe took off at the shot like it was a complete miss and listening I did not hear her fall. Crap! I took a closer look and could see a few leafless twigs and thin branches that were in the path of my shot, so way to go Einstein.... I climbed down and walked over to where the dogwood tree was and found that there were good pieces of lung on the ground. I called my hunting buddy and we started looking. We found a chunk of lung along the death run path, blood up against trees, a ton of blood, a pretty easy trail to follow, cross a small logging road, thru a hole in wild roses on the edge, and into a pine thicket. When we found the deer it had died on a mound of dirt covered with pine needles. I turned it over and it had a plug of something (lung tissue??) out of the 3 inch hole in its offside, no exaggeration this was a big hole. All I could think is that I the bullet was going sideways when it hit her, the entrance hole was not circular either but elongated. The deer was still in estrus (second rut) which may have been why she ran about 82 long steps. My hunting bud who is a dyed in the wool Axx Hat but not a bad tracking dog volunteered that I was blind and probably shot a spike buck in rut. He also volunteered that the 300WSM was a POS and could not even kill a deer reliably; this was offered up as we were crawling thru the hole in the wild roses. My point in relating this long narrative is that if a 3 inch hole in the offside of a reasonable sized doe is not good enough to drop the animal on the spot then there is really no way of predicting what actually is going to occur when you hit the animal with anything short of a 105 howitzer. If I wanted to hunt and was hurt or sensitive to recoil I would get that .243 be happy, and not worry about it. One day in the woods with a .243 is better than 10 days at home with a 7-08 that hurts you to shoot it. You might even consider a 22-250 or a .223 if you are bothered by recoil. Just remember that someone, somewhere, and sometime, maybe an Axx Hat friend of yours will say the .243 is a POS when you have too have to track a deer.

I like the sounds of the 120 gr. in the 7mm-08, too.
For you guys that reload, how much powder difference is there between the .243 and 7mm-08?

IIRC I used the same amount of powder with 85gr 243 loads as I did 140/7-08 loads, 45.0, same parent case, the 308, different neck diameter, and depth of bullet seating is all for the most part. All equal, less bullet wt. = less recoil.

Off topic, but FWIW, a 120-130 grain 6.5mm in a 260 aka 6.5mm/308 is a great deer round, esp. for the handloader with mild recoil. 243 is fine on deer with shot placement as any round, a 6.5-7mm gives some slight cushion perhaps in killing power, but you MUST place bullet with ANY round to be effective and I do not hesitate using a 6BR for deer, uses 2/3 powder of a 243 with 95% of speed. Taken deer to 400 yds, recoil nil.

Where I Believe failures have occured with a 243 are more often with incorrect varmint bullets lacking penetration and poor shot placement. If you DO have to track, chances are the smaller the caliber, the less the blood trail and inversely so why some use a 358 win, etc. for deer, LARGER exit holes for air in, blood out, but ALL those rounds 243-358 will drop deer fast with proper bullet, proper placement under 400 yds.

Yes!! JMO but I'll never run a 243 ever again.

The 7-08 flat puts deer down as good as any cal I've seen yet.
300-350yds it will definatly do the job.

7-08!

7-08.....

FINALLY! Someone addressed the main advantage of the 7mm-08. The 7mm-08 really shines at longer ranges. It's well known that beyond about 200 yards, it surpasses the .308 (.308, .243 and 7mm-08 all have brass from the same family) in the energy it delivers.

Compare the energy of the bullets at the range you expect to be shooting deer at:
.243 (100 gr. bullet)...........1332 fp (200 yards).....1089 fp (300 yards)......882 fp (400 yards).
7mm-08 (140 grain bullet)...1793 fp (200 yards).....1490 fp (300 yards).....1228 fp (400 yards).
7mm-08 (120 grain bullet)...1621 fp (200 yards).....1316 fp (300 yards).....1058 fp (400 yards).
.308 (150 grain bullet)........1615 fp (200 yards).....1332 fp (300 yards).....1089 fp (400 yards).

Triggernosis,that means the 7mm-08 waaayyy outperforms the .243 at the ranges you're talking about, hitting harder than either the .243 or the .308 beyond 200 yards with the most common bullet weights. With a smaller bullet (120 grains) it still is almost identical in energy to a much heavier 150 grain bullet from a .308, and shoots flatter. And recoil is very light, especially with the 120 grain bullet. In fact, the 7mm-08 is probably the most-often recommended caliber for women, new hunters, and recoil sensitive hunters. You can't go wrong with it. The 7mm-08 is tailor-made for your purposes. The 7mm-08 is probably more accurate as well, thanks to generally better ballistic coefficient numbers.

At the distances you are talking about shooting, this is a no-brainer. Get the 7mm-08 and start with 120 grain bullets. If you want something more, be brave and try the 140 grain bullets. The final reason to get the 7-08 over the .243 -- way more versatility in bullet choices.

Steve

Higher BC's do not make bullets "generally more accurate". They make them carry more energy at longer distances.

Either way, the 7-08 is THE best whitetail cartridge going, IMO...

Not to generate more discussion on a side issue here, but the reason I said "generally" is that bullets designed with a higher BC can be more accurate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea behind boattails (which have a higher BC) to reduce the effects of turbulence at the base of the bullet?

Either way, we're on the same page.


Same case, same case capacity. Bullet seating depths will cause the capacity to vary, but that comes into play more with bullets heavier than 140 grain. Anyway, it's really downrange energy you care about.

Steve

Jimmyp I agree with what you said but ,I'm wondering could you explain your statement "The deer was still in estrus (second rut) which may have been why she ran about 82 long steps" -- I may be learning something here. Thanks Web

Taking nothing away from the great 7-08. And knowing very little about shooting game at long ranges. I seen and heard of many Military Sniper rifles in the 7.62 NATO (.308) but never the offspring of the .308-- the 7-08. IMHO if it is better they would be using it.. Web

Just my way, but I feel if I wanted to run a 120 grainer I'd do a Roberts instead of a 7/08... :

Dober

Just my way, but ...

If you have to ask an internet forum IF you should use a 243 vs a 7mm08 for deer, you probably ought to get a 308 ...

If you know a 243 is good enough, you're fine driving a 223 where legal.

GE

I have a recoil table that shows 708 recoil at 13.35 ft-lbs where the 243 is 8.68 ft-lbs. That is a substantial difference and I would go with 243 if recoil sensitivity is your driver.
I have been considering a 243 myself because they are so pleasant to shoot and the ammo is cheaper than my 7-08. If you want a rifle to handle heavier game, pick the 7-08 and then shoot milder loads like remington's newly released low recoil loads in 708.
H

Cost is one factor that hasn't been mentioned here. Of course a lot of loonies don't consider it at all, but one fact in the rifle business is that the cartridges that are "standards" (chambered by every company that makes bolt-action rifles) are the .223 Remington, .22-250 Remington, .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, 7mm Remington Magnum, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield and .300 Winchester Magnum. And probably over 90% of rifles sold are chambered for those cartridges, maybe 95%.

The end result of all this is that ammunition for those cartridges is relatively cheap, because it can be made in huge batches. Which is why .243 ammo (and brass) is cheaper than 7mm-08 ammo (and brass).

It's also why we can generally find ammo for those cartridges in just about any store that sells ammo--such as Fellman's in Jordan, Montana. I am always looking at what ammo's available in stores everywhere, and during the height of big game season last fall there were cases of ammunition in the aisles of Fellman's. There were plenty of .243's and .308's (and the other usual suspects) but no 7mm-08's.

It also means that if cost is a factor, then the rational choice would be between the .243 and .308.

I'm a HUGE .243 fan, and normally I'd say .243, but if you're looking at 300-350 yds, two comments. The 7mm-08 is the better choice, though I'd never hesitate to pull the trigger on a mule deer at 350 yds with my .243 M788 and 100 gr. Nosler Partitions. (and I've done it quite successfully) Second comment, if you're looking to shoot deer at 300-350 yds (pardon me while I put the flame suit on...) you may want to look at a different rifle than the BLR in terms of accuracy. That a long shot with a 7mm-08 or a .243, even with a .30-06 that's a long shot. You want as much accuracy as you can get, to me that means a bolt action or one of these newer "black" rifles that I keep hearing about.
Selmer

PS - I answered before I saw the .308 comments. More recoil, but excellent round for what you're doing.

Absolutely, excellent point. In my experience and my opinion, there are three bullets that will get the job done on deer, every time, from a .243. The 85 gr. and 100 gr. Partitions, and the 85 gr. TSX. Everything else is inferior to these three. Again, my opinion.

A cartridge for hunting whitetail for someone who's recoil sensitive - that has .250-3000 written all over it. Too bad it's so hard to find now. You could always get a .22-250 and re-bore/barrel to .25 .

I am kicking that one around. My daughter hunted some with me this year (she's 15) and has went to the range with me for years. She handles my .308 and .30-30 quite well, and has an affinity for the .30-30. I tried to steer her towards the .308, but she ain't taking it. She likes the lever. I told her that I would build her a bolt in a good, soft-recoiling caliber (that being the .250 Savage), but she isn't really interested.


I just may do it anyway.......for me.....

250 is a nice round and I'd like to try one in the future.

Selmer, I'd throw in the 95 Ballistic tip and 90 Swift Scirocco (sp?), and the Sierra 85BTHP and 87 Hornady SP and HP are also known to drop deer like lightening, but I would not try breaking heavy bone nor shooting from a bad angle. Right now I have 95 BTs in my 6BR cases for my new 8 Twist custom Stiller rifle, often running 105 amaxs but it's a specialty proposition and penetration is not it's strong point, LONG range performance is, as it's holding 1,000 + lbs at 400 yds, enough to double lung and exit a broadside shot...from experience.

Many use the 100 partition and I did long ago but a deer hit ran showing no signs of impact, he did drop in 30 yds, small exit I thought. I do hear guys saying the 95 partition for some reason shoots more accurately on average in the partition vs 100gr. Others do well with Hornadys, 105 speer, and even Sierra GK BTSP but Selmer, I am with you, why not run the best bullets going, and be done for hunting. Having flattened a hog with the 85 X, I was VERY impressed, a DRT kill, and a perfectly mushroomed bullet recovered in off hide, 240 yd shot, mv 3100 in a 20" bbl, and retained wt. was if not mistaken, a full 85 grains upon weighing. I'd put a Barnes 85 up against ANY 243 bullet for deer/hogs, etc.

JB makes great point on the 243/308 for non handloaders, etc. I do believe Federal is/was planning to come out with 85 TSX in the 243 ammo. That would really shine for that round. Bullet will anchor deer/hogs like nobody's business -and do so from any angle and I'd not hesitate if it were in hand and an elk presented broadside up to 250 yds, IF legal, though it would not be my choice, I would know the bullet would penetrate well and destroy plenty tissue going thru.

I truly believe IF the mfg. would intro MORE choices in 260, AND ammo, it would over time take ALOT of would be 243 buys, for a dual purpose varmint/deer round with light recoil. Kills IMHO more like the 7/08 sized rounds. That said, having sold my RSI #1, which is no longer mfg., as of this past year, I regret letting that 243 go, as bullet choice and shot placement rules and it was a handy compact killer, light recoil so pleasant to spend time at the range practicing, and very accurate, sub moa easily with factory and handloads. If Ruger ever makes an RSI #1 in 260, or 250/3000, I'll be at the front of the line to buy one.

Vic if you reload, the 250 is great, and for a tad more energy downrange on longer shots if that is an issue, I'd look at the 6.5x47 Lapua. I REALLY like what that round has to offer overall, light recoil, premium accuracy - Lapua brass ready made (though rumor has it 260 may be on the way), and ballistics nearly duplicating a 260. To MY thinking, it represents an IDEAL deer cartridge ALL things considered, but again, if you plan to reload as factory ammo I hear has been slow to get here, although Lapua has it in 100, 108, 123, and 139.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/lapua-65x47-factory-ammo-tests/

Hi trig,

Its nice to hear someone admit that recoil effects their shot. A lot of guys get mad if you mention that to them. I'm a big guy and recoil flinch isn't a major issue for me, but i do like the more comfortable calibers. I have hunted with a .243 and its just my opinion, they don't kill as quick as a larger cal.

I shoot a 30.06 and like the 150 gn bullet better than the 165's. The extra 15gn adds a lot more recoil.

What ever you pick, shoot it well.

Hoot

Thanks for the insights, gentlemen.
I do currently hunt with a .270 Win. bolt action and limit my shots to 400 yds. when hunting from my tripod stand and using a V-rest.
I've just got the hankering for a new gun/action (it's going to be a short-action BLR) and can't decide on a cartridge. I plan on doing a combination of woods hunting and field hunting. The .270 is my recoil limit.

65BR, I do reload, and as a matter of fact, the only rifle in my possession that has fired factory ammo is that old M94 my daughter likes so much. I bought it when I was 13, and my father didn't reload, so it was fed a diet of factory ammo for a while.

Longer ranges are not really the norm where I hunt, which is the piedmont region of Virginia, mostly. Typical shots are under 100 yards, so the .30-30 is certainly adequate, but I have had occasion to make a couple of 250-yarders, but that is the exception rather than the rule. I have done the bulk of my hunting this year with a .45/70 guide gun.

Just my opinion, but ESPECIALLY if a guy is bothered by recoil, and if longer-range stuff is in the menu, a decent trigger is vital. So my advice is to factor in $100 or so to have Neil Jones Custom Products fix the trigger on that BLR, regardless of caliber.

Can't speak to it's terminal effectiveness, but I've run a couple hundred of the 120-gn BT's through my 7-08 and that is one excellent bullet! It has a very good BC for it's weight and holds up well ( accuracy wise) out to 400+ yards. Others, notably Dogzapper, give glowing reports as to it's terminal effectiveness on critters up to ELK. It's quite light in the recoil department too.

My vote remains, 7-08 and a trigger job for that BLR!

Vic,

Its the same here in Florida. most shots are under 100 yards. My go to rifle is a ruger 44 carbine. I bought it last year and have already started making memories with it. took a nice buck this year.

Think my wife is going to take it away from me. she shoots it very well, plus the fact that the recoil is very low and she loves the EO Tech Halo site I installed on it.

I would sell it for twice what I have in it.

Hoot

If the 120 gr. pill shoots well in the 7mm-08, that's my caliber then! I was afraid that the 120 gr. would be "short for caliber" and not do well..kinda like the 125 gr. does in .30-06 or the 100 gr. in .270. I doubt that I would notice any recoil difference between it and a 100 gr. .243 bullet. If y'all say it's working well, I'll believe you and that's what I'll get.

I've yet to purchase a rifle that hasn't gotten a trigger job done on it.

120gr bullets and R15 are like a stripper and brass pole from a 7mm-08

Kind of skanky, and expensive for what you get? <grin>

Triggernosis, again speaking only of how they shoot, those 120 BT's are amazing little guys. I wasn't expecting them to do well at longer ranges but they do. Word on the street is that they have a thick jacket, and do amazing things to deer.

The reason I keep bringing up Neil Jones is that he's the only guy I've found or even heard if who will do a BLR trigger job. And he did a great job on mine!

You should get 1.5 moa if not 1 moa accuracy off sandbags in a 7/08 or 243, but the trigger out the box and depending on accuracy shown on paper with hunting ammo to be used will dictate how far you can confidently shoot. BLR may be lighter than what you have been using but recoil should be fine in either cartridge. A 20" bbl BLR is not optimal for best ballistics but will not hamper too bad either, use good ear protection for blast.

Good luck and let us know how it works out. BLRs are nicely constructed.

BTW, Vic, Guide Guns are nice, but wow, sure must leave a blood trail! 45/70..classic round that flattens most anything at normal distances. You'll enjoy a milder round IMHO and not look back, I have! First rifle was a 7mag, then many more in between, even a 7mm BR (rifle-custom) not long ago. Pendulum swings, perhaps with age (read wisdom) and confidence borne out of practice at range, as well as experience on game in the field.

wldthg, there is the normal rut and then the doe's that don't go into rut in the first rut will go into rut latter in the year. Its not as stong of a rut. On why a silly doe ran so far I dont' really know but I was just surprised due to the size of the hole I shot in it with a plug of lung sticking out of it. Most I shoot as I said I destroy the shoulders on does but could not this time.

Hoot get one of those 357 magnum marlin rifles!

Triggernosis, as long as you know that the 7-08 with 120's is going to kick about as much as a 270win with 130's you should be fine. I thought about one long and hard but could not see a reason that a 308 with 150's would not do the same thing as a 7-08 and the ammuntion was more available.

The 308 sure makes more sense in my opinion.

Could that also mean the 7mm-08 is so popular that it's all sold out?

FWIW I agree and it took a lot of contemplation before I went with the new kid on the block 7mm-08 but I've been very happy with it. That being said, this spring as I pass my nephew the same p64 M70 fwt in .243 that my Dad passed me I'll be in the market for another.

Really hard to go wrong with either.

Well, the 243/100 is going to have a noticeable recoil difference from the 7-08/120.

If your recoil tolerance is around a "270 level," then why not get a 308 and be done with it? It will give a noticeable improvement in 'whack em' over the 243 where the 7 doesn't show much.

A 243 BLR sure would give some fun to the coyotes in the off-season as well.

Finally, the 125 grainers shoot great in both 308 and 30-06! That leads me to believe that you haven't reloaded a lot or spent too much time shooting, which if true, brings us back to what Mule Deer mentioned, that you can get good cheap ammo in 243 or 308 at every store around.

Jimmyp- I guess I did not understand you-- I know about the second rut but I thought the reason why the doe ran 82 long steps with a large hole in her, is because of some super power she had because she was in heat . Deer will amaze you. I shot a small buck last fall. 40 yards and the bullet cut a 3/4" gash in the side of his heart.I have never seen a deer run so fast as that one, after the shot. That deer died 100� yards from where he was shot. Thank you Web

Heckola, to me it's just a newer kind of Roberts...grin

Dober

Web, I don't know only what I saw, the doe was in heat and she ran more than the usual 50-60 yards where they run out of oxygen in their blood. This seemed a tad further and with a bigger drain hole.

I know I run much faster when I'm in heat...

Triggernosis--- males -rut +++ females --heat. Does your neck also swell? and Jimmyp -- you are right --put a 165gr. in that .308 and see what it will do in energy at 300yards.---- We say hookings on a tree. Some say rubs. Scrapes are scrapes and not turkey scratchings. Web

Triggermosis, have you ever shot a BLR?

I had one once, it was built by FN and was a .308 Win. It was in dire need of a very good recoil pad and a trigger job.

If''n it was me, I go with the 7-08 and add a good recoil pad. If it was still to much recoil I would look at rebarreling it to a .257 Roberts.

I would also take some steel wool to that high gloss finish.

Don't care who or what!!!!!
Here's a 243 kill.......

185 yds....DRT

7-08 kill....

90yds....Bang Flop....

WHATS THE DIFFERENCE???????


George

Agreed on the steel wool; I did my most recent one that way and it turned out nice.

As to recoil, the pistol-grip version (like my .325 WSM) handles recoil WAY better than the straight-stock version (like my .358). The difference was not subtle- to me anyway.

Heck you are already buying a fugly rifle, might as well go all the way and go pistol grip! <grin>

65BR, That Guide Gun does open up leak-holes. I really don't know why I bought it other than just wanting one. It ain't fun to shoot....

jimmyp, my go-to is a .308, and I am sitting here now admiring a new batch of reloads, getting them cleaned up and put away.

I have shot deer with calibers from .243 to .45/70, with the majority being either with a .30-30, .308 or .30-06. The .243 seemed to be as terminal as any of them, and if recoil becomes an issue, I will certainly explore one of the smaller calibers, such as the ones 65BR has suggested. I guess that is why I like the thought of the .250 Savage, don't know why I settled on that cartridge, but it is a known quantity in the deer fields. Bullet placement is far more important than headstamp.

Jeff, I sure the pistol-grip version will handle the recoil better than the straight grip version.

Recoil table.
1st column-rifle weight
2nd column-recoil energy in ft-lbs
3rd column-recoil velocity in feet per second


.243 Win. (100 at 2960) 7.5 8.8 8.7
6mm Rem. (100 at 3100) 8.0 10.0 9.0
.243 WSSM (100 at 3100) 7.5 10.1 9.3
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 at 3406) 8.0 17.9 n/a
.25-35 Win. (117 at 2230) 6.5 7.0 8.3
.250 Savage (100 at 2900) 7.5 7.8 8.2
.257 Roberts (120 at 2800) 8.0 10.7 9.3
.25 WSSM (120 at 2990) 7.25 13.8 11.1
.25-06 Rem. (120 at 3000) 8.0 12.5 10.0
.257 Wby. Mag. (120 at 3300) 9.25 15.1 10.3
6.5x55 Swede (140 at 2650) 9.0 10.6 8.7
.260 Rem. (120 at 2860) 7.5 13.0 10.6
6.5mm-284 Norma (140 at 2920) 8.0 14.7 10.9
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 at 3100) 8.0 13.1 10.3
6.5x68 S (140 at 2990) 8.5 16.8 11.3
.264 Win. Mag. (140 at 3200) 8.5 19.2 12.1
6.8mm Rem. SPC (115 at 2625) 7.5 8.0 8.3
.270 Win. (130 at 3140) 8.0 16.5 n/a
.270 Win. (150 at 2900) 8.0 17.0 11.7
.270 WSM (150 at 3000) 8.0 18.9 12.3
.270 Wby. Mag. (150 at 3000) 9.25 17.8 11.1
7x57 Mauser (139 at 2800) 8.0 14.0 10.6
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1

Triggernosis,

I shoot a 7x57mm, the ballistic twin of the 7mm-08. My whitetail load has been 120g X bullets for years with that rifle and push them right around 3000 fps. I have dropped more whitetails with that rifle / ammo combo then any other over the years. Works great. It is also a 7/8 to 3/4 five shot grouper in my rifle.

As others have stated, they have had very good luck with other 120 grainers out their 7mm-08's. You will not be disappointed and if you handload your choice are many and varied.

OK guys, let me clear a couple of things up.
Yes, Web, I know the difference between "rutting" and "heat", scrapes and scratches. I was just mouthing off. BUT, I do live in a household with three women, so perhaps I'd better check myself in the mirror to be sure of things.....

I'll be getting the pistol-grip version of the BLR. Shot one a while back and loved it.

Hey Triggernosis--- I figured you knew -- Just busting on you. And God bless you, you are outnumbered 3 to 1. Web

The 243 don't bounce off.........







243AI 85gr X

Fogswamp, welcome to the 'fire. Seems like we've had quite a few new folks sign on here at the turn of the calendar.

Nice animals, too. I especially like the choco antlers on the deer, but if the opinion of someone who is unlucky when it comes to blackbears matters, the .243 isn't the right caliber for a blackie of any size.

Steve

Fogswamp, your 6x42, one or two M1 knobs? How do you like it? Duplex, wide duplex or other? So your 243, what bullet on the elk/bear? Thanks.

elevation only, love it, std dupe, 85 gr X same/same.

M8 or FX? Been contemplating a 6x/M1 set up a long time, too bad leupy does not do an m1 or m2 ele. only.

That's a straight 243? Looks like a shooter. Thx.

FX, ordered it directly from leupy...AI

My 20" #1 RSI shot 85x at 3100, you should be getting 3300-3400 in your longer tubed improved. Whose tube? Twist out of curiousity? I figured an 85 Barnes would take out an elk no problem, wicked little bullet. What is your accuracy with that set up?

Good choice. I think the pistol-grip version is great. And if you want to reduce the the perceived recoil even more you can always replace the recoil pad with a good one.

NoDak, I'm not sure what you are try to say with that Recoil Table.
I also have your Recoil Table plus a couple of others and they all about the same.
These tables can not calculate Perceived Recoil because of the type of variables involved.
These tables do not consider stock design, stock fit and chamber design.

65BR..1/10 shillen, 3450fps, it shoots better than I do..grin

Sorry for all the questions, how far was the elk? Go down fast?

150 yds, yes.

Congrats again, nice to see someone hunting, using a well thought out rifle/load combo, with precise placement with a good bullet and not try substituting with raw horsepower discounting the other 2.

I've got some experience with both rounds, and have lots of confidence in both of them. I have the most confidence in the 7-08 in higher wind and with a raking shot that might require more penetration, but I'm plenty confident with the 243.

I notice recoil sensitivity is part of the concern, and I do think the 243 with 85 TSX's is about as much bang for the buck as can be achieved for a recoil sensitive whitetail hunter.

I've seen the 243 do some impressive stuff with this combination (and with others as well, but especially with the 85 TSX.)

This axis is as big and tough as most any whitetail, and the 243 with an 85g TSX broke both shoulders and exited. He went 50-75 yards after a 70 or 80 yard shot.



My boys and I snuck up on him at a waterhole, and I killed him as he was leaving. We were dove hunting, and I happened to see an axis deer way off as we were going to get set up. I had seen a group of axis passing through a month before, and had the 243 stoked with 85 TSX's in the truck, so we hustled back and grabbed the rifle and snuck up behind the tank dam. I never hesitated a second about busting his shoulders with the TSX. It broke the near shoulder, and lost its petals and went through the off shoulder, but he was still able to run on the off leg, but not far. Lungs were soup.



If 243 recoil is all you want to put up with, it's no handicap for a whitetail hunter with an 85TSX or a Partition.

DJ

Thanks, nice chattin....

nice axis!

Thanks, Paul.

Can you believe he just showed up on a low fence Texas Hill Country ranch? There was another one with him almost as good. Sure hope the buggers make another appearance. We've seen axis about 5 or 6 times in 35 years out there, and I had the 243 along so I could let my 6 year old bust one if the situation allowed it, or we just saw a doe.

Couldn't have let him kill this one, though, and he couldn't have pulled it off anyway the way it worked out - had to shoot the axis offhand over brush taller than my boy was. Would have probably ruined him to kill one like this so young anyway...grin. Took me lots of years to kill my one and only one, but he is a bruiser. I bet he went over 250 live weight, maybe well over.

DJ

You just can't not love that beautiful trophy! Nice. Boys should also never forget that hunt! Taking your son(s) hunting and esp. when things turn out like that is priceless. Congrats.

Not living in Tx, but hear you can kill them whenever they 'show up' as I guess they are now free roaming??? During WT deer season of course. True? Long ago Axis seemed like an exotic 'ranch hunt only' opportunity.

DJ, are exotics like that just fair game anytime you see 'em?

Pretty cool...

i hunt a place in TX that has fallow, axis, black buck, and sika running free range, the owner said that he grew up with them on the place. that's what i love about hunting TX you never know what'll show up.

I could like that... growing up in NM really prejudiced me unfairly toward Texas. Was even talking with the wife the other day about how well our house equity would roll in that direction...

Thanks, guys.

Jeff - You can bust one anytime he shows up - as long as you've got a valid hunting license. There are a bunch of wild, free range exotics in Texas these days, and they are great to have around.

It is pretty cool - I killed a blackbuck antelope a few years back with a bow that turned out to score in the top 15 all time of archery kills - he's a beauty as well. Another one that just showed up. Watched him for several years along with a band of does, but the coyotes slowly killed every last one of them. Took me more than 2 years of hard hunting to finally get an arrow in him. There's one lone buck left that has gotten really big, and I've been trying to get my Dad to stick an arrow in him, but he's not much of a bow hunter (although he's a good shot).

The blackbuck stuck close when they showed up, but the axis seem to migrate through. I think the drought held them closer when I killed mine - the tanks that held water were few and far between.

It was a funny hunt - my boys were really excited, and I was too, when we saw the first axis probably 700-800 yards up the draw just starting out of the brush toward water. I hoped the big one might be with him (had seen him while I was working cattle about a month earlier, but no rifle & couldn't take time to go get one).

The boys had a hard time keeping up heading back down to the stock tank, but we were well hidden behind the dam, so I kept waiting for them to catch up. As we got to the tank, my oldest boy was right with me, but his 3 year old brother had dropped back 30 yards and was running to beat the band to catch up. I had put ear muffs on him at the truck since he's not as good as his big brother at covering his ears at the shot, and he couldn't hear me and was looking down. I just knew he was going to fall and holler and blow everything out, but he got up to me without crashing and I told him to stay behind me on the dam.

I snuck up and crawled over, saw the axis watering and saw the big buck. I dropped back down and circled to get the sun right behind me and to get behind some brush between the deer and me so that I could stand up. As I stood, the big boy was leaving and I made a quick shot on him in the only little opening I had. My little boy was behind me hunkered down when I shot, while his big brother was peeking through the brush at the axis buck. The shot startled my 3 year old a little and he lost his balance in his hunker and rolled backwards down the tank dam. He hopped up laughing and we just fell out when we saw he was OK.

This is the worst I've ever highjacked a thread - sorry for that - there must be something about the suitability of a 243 for deer imbedded in here somewhere...grin.

DJ

Triggernosis,

This is going to boil down to your personal preference based on how you shoot, your recoil tolerance, etc. Personally, I'm a big fan of the 7-08. If you handload or have a buddy who does, try some 120 gr Nosler BT's or go buy some loads that have 140 gr bullets in them. This will be all you need and will keep the recoil down to a minimum.

Good Luck.

Thanks for the info, CLB.

I bought my slightly built (then) son a 7-08 several years ago. Since then, I steal it, and the 140 gr core-lokts every chance I get. I've become a huge fan. He's smoked deer up to 300 lbs and cow elk with the same rig. Little recoil to boot.

coyotes are a huge problem with black bucks! i try to kill every one i see just to help out a little.

I found 14 dead Blackbuck over 2 years - fawns almost never survived, and they killed the does about as easy. The bucks can handle them if they can get to a year old - they are aggressive as can be, and know how to use those daggers....

Neighbor had a lion kill all his - kept finding remains way up in oak trees, and finally caught a glimpse of the cat slinking away from a kill.

Guy ran over a big male lion chasing a female a couple of miles from us a few years back, and I've seen some tracks a few times, but never a cat.

I'm with you on the 'yotes - I kill every coyote I can get in my scope - often with a 243 with 85 sierra BTHP's, with which I've also killed quite a few deer and hogs (See, I'm still on topic).

DJ

The worst thing that ever happened to the .243 and the 7mm/08 was when the first person mentioned them being a fine hunting piece for women and youngsters.

That keeps untold bunches of adult males from owning either one because of the implication that they would be hunting with a woman's rifle or a kids gun.

It is acceptable, however for a man to have one or both of these cartridges in the safe if in fact he has a wife, or child/ren. Then of course, he has to work up a load, sight it in, and ultimately field test it....You know, in the interest of science....

If a man lives in a place where he can keep a rifle in his truck all year long, then the .243 is a fine choice. Really it is a hard choice to beat, and like DJ (and his son's, Boone and Crockett)I think the 85 grainer is the way to go for year round endeavors.

I keep a .243 in the safe because they are useful. Well, that and on account of my wife hunting with it. It is an SPS youth model. I bought a takeoff SPS in the standard length and put on it for her. This year she even loaded her own ammunition. It is kinda hard to pry that one out of her hands.

All that being said, I could hunt deer all the rest of my days with a 7mm/08 and be entirely happy. It is just a tad more of a really good thing.

I'm curious why so many recommend the 85 gr. rather than something like the Hornady 100 gr. BTSP or 95 gr. SST - wouldn't either of them be better for deer?

I go with 100 gr on traditional and 85 on the TSX.

No...

...

i have used the 6mm Remington and 243 for deer since 1971 and the deer bullet i used the most was the Hornady 100 gr SP but have now changed to the Swift 90 gr Scirocco and this bullet is outstanding for whitetail deer in any 6mm cal rifle. This bullet shoots it best with IMR 4064

I know a lot of guys run the .243 on deer all day long. But, IMO I find it hard to own a .243 when for example the 7-08 exists.

I'd be choosing the 7-08 with 140 NP's or 154 Horns out to 300-400 with no problem and with realistically no recoil at all especially in the BLR weight class.

YMMV

CLB

bea175, are you finding the 90 grain scirrocco exits a lot? I am working up a load soon for a young hunter to go after cow elk with and that is one bullet that I am considering. They seem to get very good reviews.

I haven't recovered one as of today from Whitetail all have been complete penetration. I wouldn't hesitate to use this bullet on Cow Elk in my 243. I also use the Hornady 95 gr SST in my 240 Wby and i haven't been able to recover a bullet, all have been complete penetration on deer. I purchased two boxes of Hornady 85 gr Interbonds and will be trying these in my 6mm's soon.

Thank you. I kind of figured as much but thought they might stop under the far side hide.

My experience with both at 100 yards or less is my .243 will drop deer far quicker. My loads are .243/100gr CoreLokt and 7mm-08/140gr CoreLokt. Both are my loads not factory. Can't say what the results would be at 300 yards. My son,High Brass, hunts eastern NC and has taken a deer at 200 yards + with his .243 and had no problem but one deer isn't conclusive.

under 200 yards with good bullets you will not be able to tell the difference (if you can shoot)

I have no hunting experience with the 7mm-08. However, my hunting buddy's wife uses a 243 with great success. She hunts only over a food plot and picks her shots carefully with most being under 75 yards. She is very recoil shy but the 243 poses no problems for her. We've thus far only had to track 1 of her deer and that one only went about 50 yards.

I shot a "dink" buck 50 yards broadside .308 WIN 150 grn out of my Savage 99M. It reared up, spun around and ran 50 yrds, turned 90* and ran another 50 yards with both shoulders and lungs blown out!!! Dad thought I missed because it didnt drt like he was used to with his .243. This deer was spewing blood and lung chunks out the entire run. Easy to trail but he ran a long way. The last one I shot only ran 20 yrds with the same load and shot, go figure!

This pretty much sums up 7/08 performance...There's a good reason you see this kind of performance from the 7/08,and that is because it duplicates the performance of the 7x57,which has been around longer than the 30/06.For years the 7x57 has been regarded as one of te lightest recoiling, practical, all round BG cartridge a guy can get....and while the 243 certainly works on smaller species of BG,it's smaller bullet diameter and lighter weights preclude it from competeing with the 7/08 as an all round cartridge.....I'd take a 7/08 over the 243 myself, but that's just me

That's right.

The 243 with 95g Partitions, 100g Hornady BTSP is a super gun on hogs and deer. I used the 95g Partition on deer and antelope for many years, about 43g of IMR 4350 with a Win primer. The 100g Hornady is no slouch. I helped brother on a 243 with the 100g Hornady's (700 LSS) and it shot clover leafs at 100. We went to Kansas and a 2nd cousin used the rifle to kill his first buck, 200 lb 8 pointer at 320 yards. The buck was facing us(we rattled him in) in a quartering shot. The 100g Hornady broke the right front shoulder and was under the hide on the off side in the middle of the rib cage.

7/08 with the 130g Speer BTSP is awsome also. I love this bullet for the shock that it puts on a deer. I gave my Rem 700 that I had tweeked to my 12 year old nephew. His did put a 6.5-20 Leupold on the rifle. We practiced at the range with the rifle and my Leica 1200 range finder. On his first deer hunt, he killed a doe at 300 and another one at 325, both were bang flops. We had the rifle sighted in at 200 and told him to aim at the top of their backs out to 325...that is what he did....not bad for a sharp 12 year old...kept his nerve also. The 130g Speer performs so well in the 7/08, I would not use another king of bullet on whitetails, premium or other wise.

I think Steelhead is right. Any centerfire cartridge should be OK.

However you have to know that there is a lady that hunts with us every year that has NEVER recovered a deer. She uses a 30-30 lever action with a scope.
She can sit in a stand from sunup to sundown, but when she shoots we always find a blood trail that ends up trickling down to nothing and we have yet to recover one that she has shot!
Last year I offered to help her zero her rifle and she refused the help!
She shot a buck at 20 yds and we never found it!
On the other hand I have a niece who uses a 6mm Remington who gets bang flops. There are a lot of people who are scared to shoot their rifles on paper because of embarrassment, yet they continue to hunt every year! It makes me sick.
whelennut

7-08. Nuff said.

I've never shot a deer with a 7mm-08 but have seen them killed with that cartridge. I have killed several deer with a 243 though and based on what I've seen with the carcasses, I couldn't tell a difference.

put a muzzle break on it

I think I'd tell that lady to find another hunting group.... or take up golf.

No contest. 7/08.

Bea 175

I came on this late, but it is interesting. I also have a .243 and a 6mm. I bought a take -off .244 (6mm) real cheap and built a short carbine with it. It shoots O.K. @100 yards, but I have to use 100Grain RN to make it work. The older 6mms Remington made had a different twist rate and usually won't handle much else accurately. Not pokeing at you, just in case someone reads what you said and tries to use those bullets in an older 6mm.
Either a .243 or 7mm-08 is fine for deer. If you reload, the 7mm-08 is probably more versatile.

My preference is the 7mm-08(model 7) It is a deer killer. I sold my 243 (ruger 77).


But I will say there is a difference in recoil. The 7mm-08 kicks more.

New guy here...haveing both I would say the 7-08

If for nothing else, bullet selection.

its like comparing apples to apples, yeah there are differences, but in the end they both will taste like apples and give you almost the same result.

without the right shot placement, it won't matter. with the right shot placement they should be DRT.
I haven't shot a 7-08 before, but I have killed numerous critters with a 243, and thats what I use for WTdeer/antelope/mulies. I have yet to have one die out of sight, or even further than 20 from the shot for that matter.
I plan on using my 243 for elk this year and have no qualms about doing so. I know what it can and can't do. but with a 100 grain partition I'm not worried a bit.

there is a similar thread in the Elk hunting section as well. and the answers are much like you see here. some guys think bigger is better, many will tell you if you're using a good bullet, shot placement is the only obstacle, and caliber doesn't matter much.

"7/08 with the 130g Speer BTSP is awesome"

Keith, what's your load with this round? I'm thinking of running this bullet next in my 7/08.

Does a 100 gr 6mm bullet do everything that can be done by a 140-160 gr 7mm bullet,given equal construction?

Colorado1135-where you going elk hunting this year? Guided and or non and public or private land.

Many thx, and how's the Red doing now?

Dober

public land, late season cow hunt colorado, guiding myself as usual.
here's mine from last year, same hunt/unit


the red?

The Red River, you're in Crookston right?

Dober

ahhh yes sir!

through here we have the red lake river but it flows into the red just west of town.
she got wet and wild this spring but not as bad as last, things have calmed down now, just waiting for the catfish run to start any day now.

....

7-08 is best by far. Either is good and neither has much recoil. IMHO Dee

I would go with the 708 and never look back. Loaded with 120 Nosler BT. Recoil should not be an issue, but if so load it down to 2600-2700fps. To me it comes down to versatility, and the 08 is simply in a different league.

There's a sexy new round.

Its the .308 win.....much better than the 243 or 7-08.

What others have said: 7 better than 6 for speed of drop, though death is going to be the same when good shots are placed.

My experience is high on caribou, low on whitetails, but they both kill equally well with the 7 seeming to get the animal on the ground faster overall than the 6 does. But a good bullet in the 6 - and I don't know if you will do better than a Partition on deer-types in this size- is a great equalizer. Shoot a 95 or 100 Partition in a 243 and you'll probably not notice any difference from a 7mm-08 loaded with anything.

Not in my opinion. A good bullet in the 6 can generally equalize the two for animals in the size range of deer, but I'd always choose the best bullets in 140-160 for the 7 over the best 100s in the 6 if I were hunting the bigger deer.

7-08 is a stellar round, but you can neck the suck right out of it up to .358 and just put the smackdown on them big ol' nasty deers.... grin...

Killed more deer with the 243 then any other rifle, except a 32 Win. Spl. - Maybe.
Had mostly one shot kills. The only time I remember two shots is when one went down close to me and still had it's head up. One more in the neck to dispatch.
All shot in the brushy Adirondack Mountains and upstate ares of NY.
You will have loads of fun and like the .243

Jim

My first very own center-fire rifle was a Parker-Hale Model 1200 in 243 (in 1971). It fits me like an old shoe and I shoot it really well on CA pigs and coastal deer. Then I got a Kimber 84M 7mm-08 a few years ago that I have trouble leaving at home now. Hard to tell the effectiveness on the game I shoot but there is a slightly hard kick on the 7-08. If the difference in recoil is a real issue, go 243.

I've NEVER understood these vs. threads...

I'm with you. Seems folks want to believe it's other this or that when it can be both.

Whatever.

Klik: How I feel about it as well...which is why I asked.....

I am in the whatever camp as well, its not the arrow its the Indian.

I'll take a 7/08 any day over a varmint rifle.

The 7MM 08 gives you much better bullet selection. I can't believe the very little added recoil of the 7 would be a issue. The 139 Gr Hornady would be a super selection for deer.

Obviously,the 7-08 is the more powerful cartridge.I dont think the 243 is underpowered for deer.

Exactly, my grandpa used to hunt antelope with an iron sighted 30/30 levergun. Probably the worst choice you could make for antelope, but he had fun and got his antelope. I don't know why we obsess so much on rifles/cartridges, I've been guilty of it as much as anybody and have also used from 22 RF to 300 WBY on big game, you can make just about anything work. But back on topic, since I got my 7/08 I haven't used a 243 on deer/antelope, the 7/08 is just about perfect for that with what I've used so far which is the 120 gr ballistic tip, 120 gr VMAX, 120 gr TSX and the 139 gr Hornady SP, plan on trying the 130 gr Speer SP this year. My plan when I got the gun was to use only the 139 gr Hornady for this gun and just use it but with so many options out there I just couldn't help experiment just a little.

Harumph....


Ingwe

Not saying the varmint rifle won't kill them dead as Julius Ceasar, but the a Buck will feel bad if he knows he was killed by one.

I don't want that.