I know most deer don't run this big,but still they exist over a pretty wide range of whitetail and mule deer country. What's curious is that these are the one's that seem to cause so much concern for some folks when it comes to rifles and cartridges...judging from some posts here,and from many conversations with other hunters,they seem to be concerned that these animals are really "tough".....

I get in these conversations with some traveling hunters headed "out West",and especially Central Canada who think things like 300 RUM's etc are absolutely essential for deer in this weight class.Up there,I've had guys armed with 338 RUM's look at me seriously and tell me that using anything smaller than a 180 gr bullet at 3100 on these 300 pound deer,and you might as well be using a fly-swatter.

Can anyone explain this? Even a 300 pound deer is not a particularly large animal.....is this the threshhold in weight for moving to a big belted 30 for some guys?

Does it take more killing power to put down a 300 lb deer than a 800 pound elk? 300 lb is not that big as big game standards go; maybe it is just a reason (and who really needs one!) to justify purchasing a new rig in a higher power cartridge than the hunter already owns? For 300 lb deer I would probably choose a .270 WIN, but that is because it is already my favorite. On the other hand I know my .338 WIN MAG would be "enough gun" to get the job done as well. Maybe hunting loonies are a lot like rifle loonies and just like tinkering with different stuff.

Deer, like many other animals, have become armor plated, haven't you realized that yet? But seriously, I think a lot can be attributed to some writers (are you listening Lee Hoots?). I've read articles that lead you to believe that if you hunt deer with less then a 300 magnum of some sort, you're undergunned. There's other reasons no doubt, but more and more I see articles implying you need something that large with a premium bullet. I've always been of the stance that when using good cartridges, a C & C is tough to beat. I've been using them as long as I've been hunting. It's all I've ever needed and never had a deer I've hit where I've wanted run more than a few steps and I've shot some pretty big deer.

Bob - I don't expect to ever shoot a 300 lb. deer, but just in case, I always hunt deer with my elk rifle, a .270 winchester.

Have an acquaintance that goes to Saskatchewan/Alberta for whitetails. After the first trip he came back and ordered a .300 Jarrett. When asked why, he said many in his camp thought a .300WM is minimum for the big deer you may come across up that way. No way you could convince him of anything other. I think it becomes a going with the herd mentality.

That rifle with a muzzle brake is the most obnoxious rifle I have ever been around.

There is rampant obesity in america's deer herd. Just as with children they spend too much time on the XBox and eating junk food.

I don't know about other folks, but I would take the possibility of a 300 pound deer seriously. I'd go so far as considering 165 grain bullets instead of the usual 150 for my 300 Savage.

battue: Glad I'm not the only one that runs into that "mind set"; ......I wonder sometimes where this mentality came from?

The first time I hunted deer in Canada was in Alberta. Of the six hunters in camp I brought the smallest rifle, a .280 Remington and handloads with 150-grain Nosler Partitions. The other guys all had various 7mm and .300 magnums, including one who brought a wildcat .300 that just about duplicated the .300 Weatherby.

I killed my buck (a 300-pound mule deer) with one shot at 300 yards. The guy who brought the .300 wildcat didn't get a deer, because he couldn't shoot straight. (His guide, by the way, used a .25-06 on those 300-pound deer and wonder why the guy had brought a .300 magnum. "Are we hunting elephants?" he asked me.)

The odd thing is that today 1/2" accuracy is also required to kill those 300-pound deer. Somehow as they get bigger they get harder to hit!

Seen it lots myself..It always tends to be the more expensive the hunt, the bigger the gun is.

I'm not sure if it's the published word or hunting shows on TV, but it appears as if many people are moving away from "potentially" having to blood trail a shot deer and subscribing more to the infamous "bang flop" theory. I've seen this before in camps where a guy shows up each year with a bigger cartridge and the funny thing is he had not shot anything with the one he had last year. Inexperience has a lot to do with it I think. Unless you shoot Texas whitetail.....then you NEED a bigger gun. <grin>

My brother took one down with archery equipment this last year.......oops!

Tom: How can you kill a big deer with a stick and string?It shouldn't have happened!

The big deer/big rifle mind set seems more obvious the further north you go.....

Been to Saskatchewan a few times, where many hunts are conducted from tree stand sor ground blinds and shooting distances are at under 150 yards.The number of 26" barreled 300 Whatevers is enough to give you pause....

Course I didnt' NEED to use my 50 bmg on deer either, but its been fun....

The biggest deer I have seen taken at long range (423 yards lasered after the shot) was a western Nebraska mule deer that probably did weigh in excess of 300 lbs. alive. My younger daughter shot this animal with about a half-hour of daylight remaining on the last day of a hard Sandhills hunt. She used a 7mm-08 with a 120 grain Nosler Solid Base bullet. The deer was hit a bit farther back than we would have liked, but the bullet still got both lungs and exited. The buck walked about 10-15 yards and collapsed before she could get off another shot.

Another big-bodied Wyoming mule deer taken with one shot by one of my hunting companions back in the 1960s was killed at over 400 yards with a .243 with a 100 grain Nosler Partition.

Conversely, I have helped trail many, many wounded deer (both whitetails and mulies) shot with various high powered magnums from the 7mm Rem Mag up. More than I would have liked could not be recovered...

I dont know, maybe luck?!
I can only imagine...I guess I would be undergunned with my little .308

The guys that I've met that thought the .300 magnums where necessary all seem to have a hunting "method" called getting the buck up at whatever yardage, dumping a box of cartriages in your hat and then shooting at him until you ran out of cartriages or you got him.
Yeah, I can see where that might be needed.... E

Once they get their retinas re-attached they will probably use something more mundane the top end being a 7 Rem mag and the bottom a 243. If you watch some of these TV hunting shows they are only using what most of the "pushers" on these shows suggest.

I guess no Canadian whitetail prior to 1998 was ever recovered after being shot in a vital zone.

The guys that seem to do well with the bigger guns are the one's that use them for everything,and shoot a lot.Most of these guys seem to be experienced and know they aren't necessary. But they tend to be one-rifle hunters who know their rifles well.

It's the inexperienced one's that think they need a big rifle for a big deer that seem to have a lot of problems.Like the guy JB ran into in Alberta.

zackly!!

I've got big guns & little guns, sometimes i carry a big gun for fun when i know very well it's "overkill"


my biggest problem is with finding a 300# deer!! WTF??

I aint shot one i can honestly say dressed at 200 yet!!

have I shot 180 lb deer with a 300 wby? yep, but mostly with a .243, .308, 30-06 etc.

So true Bob. I believe I've told this story before (sorry), but it involved a "crack shot" hunter from Houston that I helped guide for big sandhills muleys in TX. He showed up with a 30-378 Weatherby and a box of bullets. The short version is he shot close to all of his bullets, 17 shots or so over a 3 day period at deer from 60-350 yards, all complete misses. To say he flinched would be an understatement. My nephew (14 at the time)wound up killing one of those 160" bucks with his 7-08 and 140 gr Remy green box core-lokts at 200yards, stone cold dead. The rancher made the guy leave the premises, feeling he was a hazard to have around. So much for the crack shot from Houston.

Even though I personally shoot a 7mag, mainly because I'm very confident with it, I feel the 7-08 with a good bullet is the perfect deer killing machine....any deer, anywhere in North America.

The big question is...have you shot and little deer with dat tree huntret? I know you have some pics somewhere.

Most of the silly deer I shoot, seem to die with the 30-06, .308, or .257 Roberts. Silly me.

A true treehundred pounder, I'd love the chance to shoot one. Closest so far is 227# dressed.

well, yeah I have.

cause all my deers are little compared to a tree hunnerd pownder.

I've only seen one bona fide 300 pounder ( and I didn't get to see him through MY scope) but my partner shot him a number of years ago...hangin' weight,no hide, guts, head, at 3 Forks that day was #239
The rifle? A .22-250....
Ingwe

A few years back I was in Walter Craigs (it has since closed) in Selma Alabama. It was late January. Mounted in one of those gun benches was a brand new 30-378 Accumark . The sales clerk was attaching a Swaro 30mm scope to it. The new owner was going to try it out on some 300# bama deer feeding in a greenfield that belong to one those Blackbelt lodges. I felt inadequate with my puny 7 WSM that I owned at the time. Magnumitis is quite a sickness.

The only animal I've ever taken over 300 lbs was a Caribou up in Alaska. One shot with a 30-06 put it on the ground.

Funny...the 30-06 seems to have that quality about it. Not sexy or swanky, but at closing time, she gets the job done.

The 300+ buck I shot in Sask I used a .308 Win with a 165 gr Bearclaw from a Federal High Energy factory load. Jim Shockey used to tell clients to bring a .300 mag, but his website now says:

"Our bucks are huge-bodied, upward of 300 pounds, so I suggest rifles of .270 Win. and up. Any of the magnums are excellent choices."

Jim said he was hosting about 225 hunters a year in his SK operation when I last talked to him, so that is a lot of opportunity to observe what works for clients. Obviously, a .300 mag is not needed for these deer, but I think some folks feel better if they use one.

jim

tzone: I don't remember the formula, but if you killed one that dressed 227,that's pretty close to a 300 pound deer, on the hoof....and when I say 300 pounds, I mean on the hoof....


northern dave: If you live in the northern tier states like Minn, Wisc,the Dakota's, Montana, they live there. We have them here in NH and Maine,New Brunswick etc. I know they exist in a lot of places, but getting a crack at one is not easy....


JG: I am not man enough to even consider a 30-378. That cartridge seperates the men from the boys.....the men go home

It's about 60/40%.Dressed weight is your 60% and the hide guts bones head ect represents the 40%.

I shot one deer over 300. Had a .308 Winchester at the time. I intend to kill a deer with a .223 using a 70 grain TSX this year. I don't care how big (or little) the deer turns out to be, I know that bullet will do what I need it to do. They shoot into well under an inch and the chrony says they leave at just over 3000.

I would like to see a deer that I'd be hesitant to shoot with that load. I mostly shoot deer to eat, but one that big might be worth popping. Never heard of a deer getting that big, but you just never know.

Wow! I had not thought of that one. I've been using species of various sizes as an excuse to purchase new rifles. The last couple were a 45-70 and 45-90 just in case the itch for bison popped up.

Now with weight classes within a species, I have even more excuses. You're a f---ing genius! I need to get home and grab the checkbook. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 1Minute

Never weighted this fatso live weight.Would of loved to known...but was busy trying to get home by midnight.

What'd I say?

Never mind Bob...accept the fact that you are a f------g genius, and you are getting more hunting rifles in circulation!!
Ingwe

I don't know if it was 300 on the hoof or not. All I know is it was one big sumbitch to get out or there.

The buck I got last year was in the mid 180's and that was enough for a guy to handle by himself.

The deer hasn't been born that can survive a hit in the boileroom with any modern, medium-bore centerfire caliber using decent bullets. But hey... any port in a storm when you're trying to justify another addition to the safe.

I saw a couple 300 pounders last season. They were driving a crewcab Dodge

Where did they leave the men folk?

jim

I use my 300 Rum on my annual Canadian whitetail hunt. In the area we hunt deer do reach and exceed 300 lbs.
I dont need the rum and wouldnt feel under gunned with my 25-06(Took it as back up last year), but I simply like the gun so that's what I hunt with. With 165 Ab's it also flattens deer with authority. With a behind the shoulder shot they seldom go anywhere and in many cases drop in their tracks.

Not sure... I didn't make eye contact and got out of there

B: I've used the 300's up in Canada myself with 165's,shot several bucks with them, and they work really well,if you can shoot them.But you and I both know that lots of milder stuff works equally well,and they really are not "needed".

The folks I'm refering to seem to think they are essential,that you're handicapped with anything less;rush out blindly to get one without the slightest notion of what to do with them past 150 yards, and preach they are "necessary",if in fact they don't tell me breathlessly that something "bigger" is appropriate.

Or, they may harbor great concerns(if they've never shot one)that a 300 pound whitetail or mule deer requires more rifle than a good 25,6.5, 270 or 7mm of some sort.

Mike: Nice buck!

I've taken a few deer that were larger than 250 lbs. My biggest went 290, and I've seen the carcasses of 300 pounders. All of them have been taken with stuff in the 30-06/308 WIN range. All of them died fairly quickly. However, there is a strong visceral feeling you get when you face a super-sized animal on the hoof, and another profound feeling (I won't pun here, because I'm serious) when you have to dress one of them for the first time. Cleaning out something that is as big as you are does something to you.

The logical side of my mind tells me my 30-30 WIN will put one of these guys down. The empirical side of my head tells me that 165gr bullets driven at 2600-2700 fps is overkill. On the other hand, my last deer rifle was a Rem 7600 in 35 Whelen, and I'm considering a 45-70 for my next one. Something in my head just says "Quint, We're gonna need a bigger boat."

Yeah I know they exist, I hunt one currently, so far he evades me, guess that's why he's so damn big. he's very good at getting old.

My biggest whitetail was 242 lbs dressed and I used (gasp) a 45/70 with 300 grain Hornaday's Did I do it wrong?

He's so big...I see a .30-378 WBY in Camp Chickebuck's future.

You know you want one Dave.

I actually want a .460 WBY, but I guess i can start with a 30-378.

baby steps.

Same here JB. I used my 280 with a 140gr Speer on my first Saskatchewan hunt. The 300 boomer crowd all snickered. Low and behold, it still managed to pierce the armor of a large whitetail. Interestingly enough, the 2 in camp that wounded deer were a 340 Weatherby and 300 Win Mag.

Here's a 300# (dressed) piggy poo that I harvested in Canada a couple years back with a "less than boomer" as well.

Thanks Bob.
Spent about 3 weeks last Nov chasing him down.He'd zig I'd zag was how it was going.Finally one evening he made his move at last light and I was at the right place and time.One 150gr Nosler Part from the STW ended it.

Mike-
That IS a porker. Congrats!

Yes, lots of stuff works and works well. But the 300 rum/165 AB combo I mentioned drops them more immediately IME with non CNS hits. Is this an advantage? IN some circumstances, yes. But not enough to make the difference between filling your tag or not.
And your also right, alot of guys cant shoot magnums. Taking a trip to the local range in my neighborhood also confirms that guys cant shoot 30-30's and -06's.. Really, shooting a magnum is mostly a mental game and with some practice they can be mastered.

Scott: Man, that buck is huge! Guess you didn't realize you were supposed to use a 300 on the deer


Mike: So you'd seen that buck before? Neat that you got him...

LMAO.....

SKane,

That's a beast.

At our camp/lease we have a 300 mag crowd. But a 200 pound buck is pretty darn big for our area. In 2005 I killed one that went a few pounds over 190, and I used a 150 grain Interlock launched at about 2700 fps from a 308. So ballistically it was a 300, a 300 Savage.

m

Good Gawd Scott, that's a pig. With that hole in the shoulder, he would have died with a sling shot. You go and shoot deer with holes already in them....jeezzzshh.

Nice buck SKane.After checking out your buck think my fatso has gotta be very close body wise.

Bob the only time I laid eyes on that buck was in the scope when I shot.I had been cutting his tracks often and knew he was around..Was just a matter of time before we met.

.....Good Lord Skane.......what a buck!

I take FIRST DIBS to hunt with Scott and Mike

And when I'm done with those whitetails, I'm taking first DIBS with JG,too!

These boys kill some BUCKS!

My best buck weighed just over 170# field dressed. No snow that year and it was a hard pull. We got smarter as we aged and now use an ATV to do most of our dragging

A couple of more very rushed pics in the dark.

Mike: That close to where you live? I did not think you had whitetails close by.....very nice deer!

I LOVE big bodies on bucks;yes,as much as big racks

It's about 4 miles from where I'm sitting typing to you.

My wife took a 300 pound Minnesota whitetail with her .243 fell over dead just like the little 200 pound ones. Shot placement, you don't need a magnum for whitetail. Especially in the woods where 50 yards is the norm.

Awesome!

BIG +1. You shoot a porker like that, he'll have some decent headgear. Even if he doesn't, you took down a mature deer.

Great buck Mike!

They get that big, I'm not counting points.....

Shot a Rosie O'Donnell of a buck in Manitoba a couple years back with the ML, and never did get a good look at the head - saw the body moving through the bush, waddling, with front shoulders like a holstein. Bang. I called the guide and he asked how big/how many points - I said "who the hell cares".....

Way to do it........

Skane, 7STW,

Those sure are some awesome bucks. Congrats! Skane, what did they estimate the live weight of your buck to be?

Bob: Way to start a great thread!!!


CLB

Thanks fellas for the kind comments.I've only had a digital camera for acouple of years.Wish I had it for this mule deer I took 4 years back.He was heavier than my whitetail.

CLB: Thanks! Everyone luvs big deer

This is the biggest bodied whitetail that I've ever killed,he was bigger than a mulie that I shot in Alberta that weighed 267 pounds and the whitetail I killed in Mississippi that weighed 240 pounds. The picture doesn't quite do him justice.

He was killed last November in North Dakota,the date on the camera was incorrect. I used a 270 Winchester with a 140 grain Hornady. The buck went less than 20 yards and left a massive blood trail in the snow while he was doing it. I hit him just behind the shoulder as he was chasing a doe.

The bullet ended up just under the hide and weighed about half its original weight and was about twice it's original diameter.



If there is something that would have killed him deader quicker,I don't know what it is.

Cool buck doc! Apparently the deer in ND didn't get the "we're impervious to the 270" memo....

Britt: NICE buck! He qualifies for "big"! T'was the frontal area of the Hornady that got him.....those piss-ant 270's......wonder how we kill anything with that cartridge!

Ah, yes. Some very nice deer gentelmen.
If your worried about the .270 doing the job, you can go to the ".270 Improved" aka the 30'06......
All right. My kudos to Dober for thinking that up. E

CLB-

Reckon I'd guesstimate around 340-350ish live weight...
I've never weighed one with the entrails still in tact so it's merely speculation.

He DID have a big heart.
Like I said, I'm not up to speed on that, but I've heard about that formula and it's likely true. Unlike a lot of hunters, I guesstimate on the light side......<grin>

This site has all the deer weight calculation stuff:

http://www.askthemeatman.com/estimate_deer_weight.htm

I think the formula is to take the dressed weight and multiply it times 1.25 to get live weight.

Skane, I know that feeling all to well showing up to a gunfight (Sask. hunting camp) armed with an Ingram. I took this buck with a 280 Ackley and it was deemed by many to have been sheer luck. I had the smallist gun in camp.

Those are some nice bucks.

However, I think the bigger question might be "what would Lee J. Hoots use?"

Roy-
I LOVVVVVVEEEEEEEE to people watch. Going north of the border each year, I have nearly almost as much anticipation on the gents I'll be sharing the camp with as I do about the hunt. It doesn't take long to sort them out either.

There's the quiet guy that goes about his business and you can tell by his gear, and, the way it's worn that the guy is all business when it comes to hunting. That guy's choice in caliber runs the gamut from the smallish right on through the big boomers. I already know when he pulls the trigger on whatever steps out is in SERIOUS trouble. Even if he's got a 340 Wby, he knows how to use it. He's not going to give anyone crap because he knows his quarry and he knows the small ones knock them down just like the big ones.

Then there's the guy that talks the most, and wants to tell you about how many hunts he's been on, and, what he's killed, why he paid 2k for his scope and why he shoots what he shoots is the first to look down his nose at the smaller, efficient and quite effective deer rifles - and likely to make a verbal stink about it. I generally quietly wager with myself that he'll be the guy that will most likely be the guy that everyone hates, and, he will inevitably ALWAYS be shooting a BOOMER of some sort.
I've begun taking smaller and smaller calibers in recent years to to give "that guy" fodder to look like an idiot.

I would love to shoot a 300 lb deer.....I'll be quite honest and dont know if I have even broke the 200 lb range.
I know I have come close several times but this is for me pre-scale days.....so I'd be guessing.

look it' this hawg...

Interesting topic alright, especially the people watching aspect of it.

I suspect that a lot of thinking we need a big boomer for big deer it is due to relatively narrow hunting experience. If a hunter hasn't hunted much besides small whitetails he will naturally have an exaggerated perception of larger deer in unfamiliar territory. Or it may be someone whose hunting has been limited to closely guided hunts even if they are in widely different places. I know such a hunter who has some fine trophies, and an astounding ignorance of game and ballistics.

In the first scenario, limited experience with small deer, unfamiliarity magnifies unknown problems. The default solution to hunting unknowns is bigger bore and more powder.

I've been fortunate to kill several monster bodied mule deer in Central BC and see some others killed by friends. Ironically I killed my largest one with a 6mm Rem. shooting 95 grain Nosler Partitions, still hunting in forest at 40 feet. My first shot went through his lungs a bit far back, shooting through a vertical slot in cover, and he ran about 60-70 yards. He paused on the way and I put a second shot into him, unnecessary but I didn't know that for sure.

I'd have preferred to have my 06 and 165's but due to gun work and trading rifles, the 6mm was the only rifle available that day. Pre-digital, no pics. That buck looked long as a stretch limo, deep body, neck an untapered extension of his body for its first half, so bulged out so that he couldn't put his ears all the way back and his huge head looked ridiculously tiny.

I hunt with a friend who shoots nearly everything with his 300 Win mag. and shoots it more accurately than most people can shoot a .22 rimfire. When he got a 22-250 for coyotes, (he'd been shooting them with his .300) he couldn't resist killing some deer and black bears with that, though he is back to the 300 for his all around now.

Interesting topic. I do own a couple pretty nifty big rifles, but I'll probably chase Inyo mule deer with a .308 this year. A .270 WSM might be fun someday, just for the improved trajectory.

Those of you that hunt over a set stand, with potential for multiple animals, may want to think about caliber in more than a couple ways. In Texas, hunting over my stand, I noticed that when a I shot a doe with a .300 Savage (Model 99, 24" barrel, Rem factory ammo). She not only died right there, with a 3" hole in the off shoulder, but a good buck showed up the next morning in the same spot & also was harvested.

The next year in the same spot I shoot a spike with a .270 - 22" barrel, with max loads of R22, and don't see another deer for 4 days in the same spot. Muzzle blast clear them out? Maybe. If I hunt that area again I may have to buy back that .300 Savage from the friend I sold it to...

I am not in the same league as most of you when it comes to shooting big deer. I went thru the big magnum thing in my 30's and have since moved on. The only magnums I have are a 257 Roy and a 325 WSM. I bought the 325 WSM mostly for the rifle itself and the 257 Roy......well.....what can I say, I readabout it hereand had to have one. For me I like the bigger bores and lever guns!!!

I agree with OK. Most of the people who head for some happy hunting ground to shoot a really big deer really don't know what to expect or what they are like.
Make no mistake, they are quite different than the 1-2 yr. olds the vast majority shoot. As John Wooters once put it, "they are so different than the younger, smaller bucks, that they might as well be considered a separate species. "
How do they differ ? They have alot of experience staying alive under hunting pressure. They are far more wary than the younger bucks. They move much differently than the younger, smaller bucks.
The big trick, I'm convinced is to be able to shoot well under the conditions that shots at them are presented.
Since I've never killed a 4 yr. old from a stand, I'll pass on that. If that's the way you hunt, ask somebody like Ruraldoc for advice. I've never had the oportunity to hunt big private ranches where the bucks don't have much experience with hunters either.
What I've noticed is that when hunting them any other way, still hunting, tracking or glassing and stalking, they almost always give you very little time to shoot and often are busy moving through cover. They give you very little to shoot at and very little time to do that. They don't, in my expereince, stand around at 300-500 yds. plus and give you time to get into your shooting position, deploy the bipod and range them. They would never get that big if they did.
What all of that means is, particularly with today's premium bullets, that almost anything will work in the way of a cartriage and load. The big trick is to be able to shoot quickly and hit him well moving.
Anybody read any of the Benoit books ? One of the things that really impressed me was how much they practice. Nothing fancy in guns or loads. But they shoot alot. Even during their off days during the hunting season.
Makes alot of sense to me. E

A guy I once hunted with on a South Texas lease had a .300 Weatherby that he's had for over 30 years and swore it was the hammer of Thor. After he missed a small 8 pointer, he admitted he hadn't checked the zero for "eight or ten years". After the miss, he had HIS FRIEND shoot it and found out it was off by a foot at 100 yards. I'm convinced he was afraid of that gun and that's why he never shot it.

On the other hand, after witnessing a mature, rutted-up midwestern buck run 100 yards after being shot through both shoulders with a 165 grainer out of a .30-06 (and having his lungs turned to absolute mush) I will never laugh off a hunter for using a .300 mag IF he knows how to use it. That, of course, is the key.

I am a Lifetime Member in this club. I have taken several near 300 lb Axis with a .280 and never thought I needed anything more.

yardage involved may have some impact on why some of these guys love big mags...guides may be telling clients that shots may be as long as you want to shoot....ever heard this before????

I hunt with a 25/06, 270, 7 mag, and 7 STW on the long stuff. Brother, Brother in law, and I have never had a deer take a step with the 7 STW with our loads with longest shot 460 yards on a 300+ lb Kansas deer.

It has always amazed me at how few hunters know their ability to hit anything...most of us are living way too fast.

I like the big boomers because their fun. Just because you can kill a deer with a .223 doesn't mean you can't kill it just as dead with a .416. Being as you'll never convince any two guys at the same time which caliber is the best,not to mention which scope,and who really cares anyway. I say shoot the big ones & small ones and all the ones in between. Just as long as you can reasonably hit your target, and are enjoying the shooting. You might be surprised at how much fun it is hunting elk in dark timber with a .450/400 3" with express sights.

Okanagan:Those Canadian (BC,Alberta)mule deer can be huge;my biggest (body weight)came from Alberta,and I freely admit to gawking at him for a few minutes before I shot him.I was not concerned with having enough rifle,as I had a 7 mag,which to me is a part of the 270,30/06,7 mag family) so no big deal.

He was also the largest buck I've killed that stood around while I studied him,as most of my deer have been taken while I was walking, on the ground, etc, so agree with E's comments about sped and accuracy and will only add that a long,heavy rifle chambered for a heavy-recoiling rifle is somewhat of a handicap in a lot of the country I hunt.

A guy should use what he likes but my half-assed observations are that most guys are over-scoped and over-gunned.But I have also noticed that some of these folks are not particularly good with anything;knowledge of trajectory to them is sort of a vague notion;they are equipped for long-range but don't know how to handle it,shoot indifferent groups during sighting-in sessions at camp("good enough" they say),can't shoot at all off-hand or from improvised rests.

I was in the company of one of these guys(otherwise a VERY good guy),when we chanced on two(!)B&C class whitetails at first light in the field I was to be posted on(hey, it happens).The largest,an aboslute once-in-a-lifetime monster in rack and body size,stood calmly about 250 yards away watching the smaller buck (he later grossed 174)chasing a doe.This fellow had the opportunity to shoot this buck,but declined,saying he could not hit him from that distance.This was true because I had tracked a buck he shot the day before (at about 100 yards)the full length of a 1/2 mile field.He never touched him despite running the rifle dry.

When asked by the guide why I thought he had missedI commented that the fellow would be better served with a 7/08 and a 3X scope that he could hit with, than the 7 mag and 6.5-20(!)Leupold he was using.

You will be soooorrrrrryyyy.

Bob, Skane, OK, you all make very valid points, and I've seen every one of them, dozens of times.
Skane was right about the quiet guys familiar with their gear ( whatever it is...) Went on a Canadian hunt one time and after a few hours in camp with guide and outfitter I asked " should we check our zeroes, and you guys can see if we can shoot or not...?" The outfitter simply said, " oh, you can shoot...you haven't mentioned a thing about what kind of rifles and bullets and scope you brought since you got here, no problem...you can shoot..."
My experience in and out of the field is precisely that...the more you hear about the gear, the less experience it's owner has, and the more reliant he is on technology instead of experience.
I have had bunches of younger guys with say an'06 ask what I thought about stepping up to the latest magnum craze, wanting an honest answer. Told them all, take the Thousand dollars you'd spend on a new rifle and buy ammo or components for your '06 and start shooting it... Haven't had one follow the advice yet...
Also have had numerous inquiries on how to make their new magnums shoot better,with the trailer " I don't understand it,my .243 shoots little tiny groups..."
And on and on...
Thanks to you guys with experience that have seen and duly noted these same things.....
Ingwe

Ingwe:Hanging around gun stores is an education......at my local emporium a guy wanted a 300RUM for his first elk/deer hunt out west(Montana).It was to "replace" his 30/06,and he said he "needed"the RUM for "long shots",ie 400-600 yards......

Turns out he had never seen an elk, or mule deer in the wild before.

I asked whether he got to shoot those distances back here to become familiar with the new rifle,and he said "no", the nw rifle and scope would take care of those things.......I told him that was not so,and he should stick with the 30/06.....he bought the RUM anyway.I learned to save my breath,and now just say,"Buy what you want!"

Call me a puzzy but I want no part of a 300 RUM....(grin)

Not to mention the powder that thing would use up if you shot it much.

I had one....for 48 hours and one box of ammo....IIRC

Sam,
I get about 70 rounds of 300RUM loaded per pound of powder.

And I'm just guessing that you and the Bob hit and kill what you are shooting at....
Ingwe

Bob,now, if you ever want to know how things go at work for me...youv'e got my answer
Ingwe

Bet it lets a guy know when it goes off Bob!


I get about 105 rounds for the WSM Tim. Finally wised up and bought a keg just for it....(grin)


Killed a few rocks with Bob yesterday Ingwe. No critters yet although Hot Pants and I are gonna take drive in the hills this afternoon, maybe we'll find a gopher for Bob to launch.

ingwe, I agree. I had a couple of the younger guys that work for me ask what I use or recommend for deer and elk hunting. When I told them something like a .270, 30-06, .308. 7-08 etc., they looked at me like I didn't know what the hell I was talking about. So one of them purchased a .325 WSM with a 6.5 X something scope and the other 7mm STW with a 4 X 12. Now they talk about how their rifles have increased "knock down energy", flatter trajectories, more bullet penetration, etc., etc., etc. That's all fine.

How much do you think those two young guys practice with those rifles? They don't reload and the ammo for those calibers is expensive. I would guess they shoot less than a box of shells each year.

When I was 18 and guiding elk hunters, I decided what I really needed for my own hunting was one of those new 8mm Rem Mags (I date myself here). I probably "bragged" that rifle up quite a bit myself at the time. Took a couple of elk with it then sold it. Couldn't think of one thing that rifle could do that my old '06 wouldn't. Plus, I didn't get the crap kicked out of me when I practiced with it. Anyway, I believe I became a little more humble, and recoil shy, after that experience. So, I'll let the young guy's (or any hunter) learn what they like for themselves and won't hold it against them when they brag-up their "super-duper, long range, at any angle, dead right there ultimate elk and deer rifle". Whatever. Do you shoot it a lot?

Ingwe: We're both in the business of giving advise when it's asked for....when people don't take it,they've already made up their minds and there is no sense pressing the issue.They'll ignore it anyway


Sam: It seems to me a solid cut in recoil over even a 300 Weatherby,and required a very firm hold to control.Since I could not figure out what it did that the Weatherby did not,I sold it.I know the RUM is faster,for sure.But differences that can't be resolved with a 300 Weatherby and 180 at 3150 escape me.I am not good enough to exploit whatever advantage the RUM offers.


Who is Hot Pants?

Precisely, and I'll bet my next paycheck that their "practice" is limited to sitting down and shooting from the bench....
What we need is more guys like Sam O. who take their rifles to the hill and shoot rocks and gophs etc. year round.
And yeah...you did date yourself with that 8mm mag
But, I guess I dated myself knowing what you were talking about!
Ingwe

Count me in the .280 club! I have killed two Saskatchewan bucks that weighed over 300 lbs. with a Steyr .280. Both times I shot 150 grain Nosler Partitions. One deer ran about 30 yards before expiring and the other never took a step. On both trips, I had the smallest gun in camp.

When I go to Canada again, I will be taking my .280.

Hot Pants is my wife....(grin)

We went out for a little trip late this morning and she shot her first centerfire(257 Rob). Big ol' smile as she nailed a plastic jug offhand at maybe 25 yards. "That was more jumpy than I thought it would be!" she said.
Funny.

One shot and she wanted to go back to the 22lr...
(and yes, she shoots like a girl....grin)





Believe me Ingwe, there was a time when all I wanted to do was shoot from the 'bench'. Boring!


Alaskan was on sale so no IPA's today......

Sam: Too funny! She looks like a sweety and looks like she shoots just fine! Let her have the 22 if she wants it back!

Bob, the old Mossberg 22 is her favorite. Not a bad thing at all!

I'm one of the wierdest guys that frequent my home range. While I do shoot from the bench just to see if I'm still where I need to be, I often do some pretty strange things, usually when it's not so crowded. I like to sprint 50-75 yards up to the bench, pick up my rifle and fire 3 quick shots offhand @ 100-200 yards, trying my best to be accurate when slightly fatigued. If I can hit a pie plate sized target I'm pleased. I've found this helps me as much as shooting off a bipod, etc. I've sure gotten some strange looks over the years.

I know exactly what you mean,gotten some weird looks while shooting tiny snowmen at 100 yds offhand with a .375...and plenty of times while leaning on a support pole and shooting someone will kindly offer the use of their rifle rest and bench...
Was even training a kid one day and he had achieved a good sitting position on top of the bench... " he can use my rest and bench..." says one Samaratin, and I had to ultimately rather emphatically let him know that there are no benches and rests where we hunt....
Good on 'ya for real "practice"... that would explain that Muley in your avatar in part, I'll bet...
Ingwe

Sam, cool pics... Give Maygun back her .22! Hope she had fun, it was a nice day today... Don't use up all the IPA in Bozo, I'm gonna be down there for a few days next week....( Actually you can use up the IPA, but leave the Beltian White!)
Ingwe

JGRaider,

something seems wrong getting strange looks for real world practise. Good on you for doing it anymay.
Overhere we have standart range practise ruleseffectively ruling out any useful practical shooting exercises.

You may not even practise kneeling. No use of the magazine-single loading only. I could go on.

So, what do we do? Range officers learn to trust us and drink a lot of coffee...

Such goings on.

JG-
Something tells me you're not the wierdest guy at the range - far from it, more like "the most the prepared".......Tip of the hat to you bud. Perhaps take your hunting photo album with you and the next time they look at you funny, bust that sucker out.

I know BobinNH does similar practice, though I'm not sure about the sprinting....Robert, what say you? <grin>

Scott: Yes, I've done similar drills to what JG does,but I'm older now than I was 10-20 years ago,so don't do the sprinting anymore,but used to jog down and back from the butts to the 200-300 yard lines to check targets,instead of using a spotting scope,and shot groups when winded.I killed my biggest mule deer in Colorado by running after him,uphill,through scrubb oak for about 150 yards,just to get a crack at him.I got lucky that day.

But I do shoot offhand a good deal just to reinforce in my mind how bad I am at it.I do this with a 22,a 223,and then up to everything including the 375.

If I'm alone at the range and waiting for barrels to cool,(with an empty rifle)I wll practice snapping the rifle to my shoulder and picking up flying birds,swinging with them,etc.

Like JG,after I'm zeroed at 100,the sand bags go in the trunk and the majority of my shooting at 300,400,and 500 yards is done either from a tight sling, prone,or from a "field prone" like you'd shoot over a log,or pack, in the field. I never use a bipod because I consider them a hindrance and excess baggage,fine for varmint hunting but nuisance on a big game rifle.

I also shoot a lot off hand and from the sit,with and without a tight sling.A lot of the off-hand is done with 3 rounds down and the rifle is operated as fast as I can and still get back on target.Once in a great while, for chuckles, I'll shoot off-hand at 300 yards,which is pretty futile,but entertaining

For me, the most effort is expended trying to get accurate shots off quickly from field positions at 300 and under, rather than worry about tiny groups at long range,simply because I know I am far more likely to encounter a big buck,and most other game, at under 300 yards,and he is NOT going to give me a lot of time.

Besides,shooting at stationary targets from solid locked-in positions off benches and bipods is pretty easy once you know the rifle and load.The tough stuff is mastering the various field positions(off-hand,sitting, kneeling,field positions)etc.People avoid this type shooting today because it is harder to be good at than shooting itsy groups off a bench,which many consider to be "practice". It is.....for the rifle.

It never seems to amaze me what folks use to hunt deer. I use several magnum rifles and stds as well to hunt deer, I only use the mags for the added ballistic qualities for certain hunts where longer ranges are the norm. It's all about where you hit em. There's probably more game wounded with mags than stds.

I remember years ago when Dad showed up to elk camp with a 25-06 and Rem CLs. The other guys thought that was funny until he smoked a nice 5x5 at 150yds that only made it about 20yds after the shot(heart shot). Now, I personally wouldn't elk hunt with that combo, but it certainly proved the importance of shot placement.

loder

Deer with std's...I'm stayin' out of that area.

Nothing wrong with folks using mags if they can shoot them. Most of the folks I see shooting them suffer from fright or are just plain inexperienced with shooting them. I purchased a 300 Win Mag back in the mid 90's from Remington's Custom Shop for one reason. I loved the look and feel of the rifle. It is a 700 APR (African Plains Rifle). Had no intention of going to the Dark Continent and certainly didn't need a 300 WM to kill a frickin whitetail. It is however one of my favorite rifles cause it shoots very small groups, has a wonderful feeling stock and to me is one of the nicest looking/shooting rifles ever to come out of Ilion. I'm not sure where the trend started for magnum rounds and whitetails north of the border. In my experience it didn't start with folks who live and hunt north of the border either.

Sorry....I should have said "deer with STD's.

Unfortunately my "sprinting" at the range is not much more than "half-assed limping along" anymore. Kudos to the benchrest guys, that's just not me. I love flinging lead.

How timely. The following appeared in the editorial titled "True Heavyweights" of the summer 2009 Deer and Deer Hunting magazine. All of the following weights have been verified. The top 4 deer are:

1. 431# field dressed, live weight est 540# killed by bow hunter in Ontario in 1957

2. 402# dressed, live weight est 511# in Minnesota in 1926

3. 355# dressed, live weight est 451# in Maine in 1955.

4. 321# dressed #, no live weight est. killed in Wisconsin in 1938.

The article went on to say that heavier deer have been mentioned, but were not verified.

Grizzly: The Maine deer is known as the Hinckley Buck, killed by Horace Hinckley, north of Skowhegan,I believe What a pig!

RD: No reason NOT to use a 300; they're great...if you can shoot them, they're your all round gun, etc. But many buy them for the wrong reason.

Many up north use lighter stuff, but SOME use a 300 for everything.

And of course Bob, there's also a wee bit of a difference when comparing a .300 WSM shooting 165/180's to say a .300 RUM launching 180/200's.

My 8lb WSM is really pretty mild but I wouldn't prefer it to have more kick.....grin

Sam,
I have not even had a chance to shoot a 300 whizzum.
Sad, eh?
Maybe if I can find one in a Sako 85, that situation will change.
(grin)
BTW,
I still like my 300RUM, in the rifle I own( a Remington LSS) the recoil, even with a 200gr/3200fps is not quite as bad as one might imagine.

Sam: That is the beauty of the 300WSM; like the old 300 H&H,it's one of the milder-recoiling 300's.Manageable.

BobinNH, You're right about Hinckley taking the Maine buck. I omitted the names of the hunters.

I think of seen pictures of Hinckleys buck and it was huge. Don't know if any pictures exist of the other deer listd.

....I'm not sure why they missed a Georgia Department of Natural Resources verified deer field dressed weight of 355 lbs.on a buck shot down in Worth county. I recall that it was listed as having tied a 355lb. field dressed "Maine" killed buck at that time.

....That one was an extreme rarity here, that's for sure, but bucks in the mid 200's are taken every year.

I believe there was a 509 lb deer taken in NY about 20 yrs ago or do if I remember right.
Thats live weight...not dressed.

Huge deer, those you list, Tom!
I have seen elk cows that weighed less.

I'm tellin' you Tim, I am a recoil puzzy!
But like you say, your RUM has a little weight to it plus the stock probaly fits pretty good as well.

40 or 50 rounds of the WSM is just plain fun....(grin)

Sam,
It sounds like you are getting your money's worth out of that 300WSM.

As far as my RUM goes, the recoil pad helps some, too.
Although I can't honestly say I could put 40 or 50 rounds downrange at one session.
Probably more like 25 max.

wuz

you know it!

muzzlebreak biatches

Sam/Tim: I admire you younger guys,20-30 shots through 300's in a day

....I fired 3 shots through the 300 Weatherby yesterday at 500 yards.....the shots went where they were supposed to, so I went where I was supposed to...back to the house to watch the Celtics and have a beer

Me?
I ain't got no stinkin brakes!
(not since I ditched the 338-378 and 378's anyway)

Thought ya breaked the 270?

Haha!

No, I just braked the 223...

Watching your beloved Yankees right now Bob....(grin)


One thing about shooting in the cold weather, takes a few shots to warm things up and that's good!

must be AI

Huh?

What was that????

grin

How did you know??

That 50 feet does sting more.

Attention grabber...

My ears are still ringing, give me a few days...(laughin)

no chitt laffin back.

Great question, personally a .270 Win is enough for even heavy Alberta bucks! That said, I was in camp when a young hunter shot a buck with a 25-06. After they brought him back to camp, he got up and started walking away, and had to be shot again in the outfitters back yard.
This created quite a lot of excitement and BS around the camp. I asked the youngsters dad what his kid was shooting in the 25-06 (which I happen to like) his dad's reply was Federal. That is all I could find out just Federal?

I suspect two reasons why some Canadian outfitters put in their literature and websites .28 caliber as minimum, is some hunters don't pay attention to which bullet they are using in smaller calibers and may actually be shooting something like a varmint round.
Secondly, I have heard talk about these northern bucks having thick long hair and the blood can gather and freeze up from a small exit wound, and a thick layer of fat can shift and cover a hole.
I say BS to these theories myself because if they are hit right they will go down after a brief run of 40 yards or so.
But none the less I have heard this BS spread and believed as the reasons people need a 300 mag for big northern deer.

Straydog: I agree; some of the notions I hear today about what it takes to kill big bucks and other animals makes me scratch my head, just about as much as what I hear about what is good bullet performance.Both have become really strange topics in recent years.

I wouldn't say you need a mag, but I shot a deer where fat plugged the hole after he ran a bit. We did find him.

I believe the Jordon buck was killed with a 25-20.

It was a 25-20, here's a clip from the story

"Instinctively, Jim shouldered his .25/20 Winchester and carefully aimed at the giant's neck. The rack was
frozen in place as the deer, unaware of the hunter's presence listened to the sounds of the approaching
train. Posed against the blue sky of a clear, cold day, the majestic buck with his heavy, golden-brown rack
left an impression Jim would never forget. Finally, the hunter squeezed off the shot. Deer scattered at the
sound, does in one direction and the buck in the other. Jim fired until his magazine was empty as the
racing buck made for nearby cover."

StrayDog: Funny things happen. One of the stories that gets told alot at the Alberta camp I hunt out of,is about the lad(who had a reputation for having things go sorta "wrong") who shot a big whitetail with a 300 mag.He poked the deer in the eye with the muzzle to be sure it was dead....

The buck, only stunned,jumped up and his antlers got wrapped in the sling,yanking the rifle from the hunters hands.A rodeo ensued with the buck trying to get the rifle off his head,slammimg the rifle repeatedly into the dirt.

I guess the rifle was "hot" at this point,safety on,and the kid beat a hasty retreat,sought out his father and Merlin,ran up to the truck and repeatedly asked his father...."GIMME YOUR RIFLE"...but would not say "why".....

The father,knowing the kid,said "what'd you do now!!!where is your GD rifle???",to which the kid finally, in exasperation,replied....." The DEER has my PHUGCKIN" RIFLE!!!"


True story

Oh man, that's precious. And, I have little doubt the story is a fabrication.....One couldn't make that stuff up.

....to hear Merlin tell the story...he'll have the beer coming out your nose....it's a classic!

I mean,can you picture it????!!!!I start laughing just thinking about it!

I like hunting with Canadian outfits with a long history - part of the fun is the lore and hearing stories about guys from the states they've encountered over the years. When everyone has gone to sleep, I'm generally still up listening to the stories, and, generally wake the next morning with a sore midsection from laughing so hard.

I've heard some dandies Bob, but that one takes the cake. I would love to hear Merlin tell that story one day....I'm laughing just thinking about it.

That is funny!! You know I can relate to the kid wwanting to keep that secret, with all the ribbing kids get from their relatives in a hunting camp.

Some years back Whelen Nut (from here) shot a dandy buck in some tall marsh grass. He didn't see it go down, so he sequestered me and settled back into his position and I went 'in search of'. The deer was lying very near where he shot - presumably quite dead (this is an hour later mind you) so I grabbed on and commenced to dragging. Odocoileus virginianus came alive in my hands and I wasn't quite smart enough to let go quite yet. He broke free and I managed to get another in him as he attempted to race past me.

No, the deer didn't attempt to take my shotgun, (like Merlin's story) but I can see how his story could happen in a heartbeat.

Moral of the stories, (and it should be quite easy to grasp - for some) don't wrestle deer.

Or porcupines...

Stray Dog: The father is a well heeled guy,with a good business,and I guess the kid was the type that just got to hang out in camps all hunting season,much to the father's chagrin...so the incident with the buck was just another of the kid's screw-ups that the father was a bit frustrated over...

The father was always on the watch for the kid to mess up.....something.....so this attitude added levity to the whole incident. I can picture it.

The conversation at the truck MUST have been priceless to hear...

I was told the buck was really making a fuss trying to shake the rifle;just pounding it to a froth and there was mud and dirt jammed through the barrel. Why it never went off I don't understand.


Scott: NEVER wrestle deer....they will flat kick your butt!

Biggest deer I've got to date was 225 field dressed but forgot how tough he was and used my bow. I shot a very lean 194# buck with the lowly 30-30. He went 100 yards but was still stone dead

Bob,

They're so damn big in these parts they make us use slugs!

Shudder to think what rifles are adequate...

Bow season is three months long so you have time to find a rack and bones.

Hawk: I have heard about those Ioway bucks;seen them on TV,too.

72 caliber seems about perfect...no?

It works. And we haven't banned lead because of it.

Would rather be a rifle state. You ever pay $10-14 for five rounds of your fav. deer cartridge? Can't even get Brennekes anymore.

I went mostly to the wheelgun (I know, underpowered as well) and my own cast loads; though most tags get filled in our group with slugs.

Eliminate the party hunting, collect a doe B4 buck and we'd be good to go. That and treating the out of state hunters better...

Lots of deer here, though most that need shot do not have horns. They eat fine (grins).

Venison is GOOD! Especially from your state!

BobinNH: There was a poster here for a while that advocated the use of a 340 Weatherby Magnum for Mule Deer Hunting "out west"!
AND to make THAT even worse he advocated shooting said Deer with said Rifle "through both shoulders"!
He was ridiculed and ostracized and lectured (often by ME!) til he must have lost interest in posting that crap here anymore!
Your point is valid!
I often cite my friends (a family of 5 women and 1 man) here in SW Montana who harvest 20+ Deer EVERY year with the "family 223"!
And some of these are large Buck Deer!
In fact we all went on a trip to eastern Montana a few years back where the 14 year old daughter in this family killed a 31" wide, VERY mature, Mule Deer Buck with one shot from her 223 Remington!
I know that Buck was 31" wide because I measured it myself!
That feat followed by just 2 years her harvesting a Mt. Goat (again with one shot!) with the same 223 Remington caliber Rifle!
That full body mounted Mt. Goat now adorns the wall of that families trophy room!
Bullet placement and bullet construction are two VERY important components of cleanly harvesting Deer size game.
No, "magnums" are NOT needed to harvest Deer.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG: I hear stories like that and I someimes wonder why I've spent so much time worrying about rilfes for big game. The experience of you and your family simply underscore that if you know what you're doing with a rifle,you can sometimes take a rifle out of its'class,and it'll work well if you know what I mean

I would not leave on a hunt for mule deer with a 223 myself,but anything from from a 257 Roberts up would make me happy;and a 270 looks better and better each year (actually it always looked pretty good to me!)

Bob, this one is for you!... I would, and have on many occasions left on a hunt for Mule Deer with a .223....but then again I have the luxury of living amongst them, and getting the extra time to pick and choose shots. But like VG intimated...I shoot about 2500 rounds of .223 per year at varmints. Figure if I can hit a gopher with it, I can hit a deer in the heart ( they are about the same size...)
Anyway, this one wasn't 300 pounds, but the single bullet that killed him was 53 grains!

Ingwe

Ingwe, that dudes got some mass to him.

Yeah, we think he was as big as he was ever gonna get, and on the downhill slide..
Ingwe

Quick bio I live in saskatchewan and guided for many years as well. When i guided the camp mins. were .277 + with a stout bullet in the tube. The main reason for suggesting a stout bullet were 2 fold: near every hunter wanted the glory shot a DRT - double pin aim point & the shots were typically 100 or less in the dense forest where I guided. I never guided a single .270 shooter, majority were 300 mags with 180-200gr pills. I agree status is the major reason for the big guns brought but as long as the client could shoot it then i was fine with it. I can add their were more then a few who didn't pass pre-hunt sight in and were asked to use the camp 3006 with 180gr nosler parts...lol!

I have killed my share of canadian bucks that tipped the scale at over 300lbs and know that shot placement is the key. My aim point is always the vitals with the least obstructions - aka ribs not shoulder. I have absolutely no problems taking the opposite shoulder on the way out as I know the damage that has been done is lethal and exiting isn't really a concern. Whether a 300lb deer or 1000lb + moose they can't live with deflated lungs...this i know to be fact. For deer i use NBT and love them, not what my camps would have consider an adequate bullet but again shot placement being key! I have used cartridges to take a deer ranging from a 2506rem to a 338wm - the only difference I've seen is the size of the hole and some case the damage the lighter faster ones can do. I think the 1/4 bore is a perfect antelope, deer and sheep choice. Another key element is choosing the right bullet for the task. Their is absolutely no need for a screaming 3600fps projectile when your shooting 300 or yards. Common sense goes a long way in life and hunting.

Its not the size of the tool but the operator that makes the difference...JMHO.

Ingwe: Good grief what a HOG! And a 223 no less!

I have no real complaints with guys using bigger guns for these outsize deer because a lot of folks in Canada and Montana use 300's or 338'etc for their elk an moose,too.

AA has an excellent post above and it's the traveling hunters that make me laugh because they feel such artillery is REQUIRED for these deer.

I have never seen a bit of difference between a 30/06,a 280,and a 270 on any of these animals (or a 7x57 or 7/08 for that matter).The type bullet used seems to be a bigger factor IME.

Bob, since this is a thread about weight and not antlers, I'll stick in another pic for you...this is probably the heaviest deer I've shot, though the horns aren't much...for point of reference I'm 6'4" and weighed out at 265 in this pic....

Had to use the "big gun" on this one...the 7x57
Ingwe

Ingwe-

That's a piggy-poo....

Yeah and that deer was a hog too!
Ingwe

Nice deer you have ingwe.

Mind if I ask you what your handle means?

Handle is Shona for "Leopard"...and yeah theres a story there...
Ingwe

Thanks, when you get time relay the story for us if you would.

laughin'....

Will do Tom...
Ingwe

Ingwe, you're the man! Nice bucks.

Yeah but they STILL don't look like the one in your avatar!
Here is about my best- few years ago, and we figured him to weigh about 255 on the hoof..

Ingwe

That is a nice mulie Ingwe!

Yeah, that one was awhile ago, and I had alot of time to hunt, passed up a LOT of good bucks that year, but the instant I saw him, I had to slip him a 7x57 sleeping pill....
Thanx Sam..
Ingwe

Well the biggest white tail I ever shot off my CT wood lot when about 200 lbs field dressed, and he was a worn out buck, little fat, shot him in Mid Dec. As for the rifle I was a Sako in 6.5 x 55 and a 160gr Hornaday RN going about 2400 fps. I know about the speed because that is what the Chrono said. It was late in the day, there was a warm south wind that day, my aunt who was living with me at the time, needed to go to the Doctor, her hobby, by the time we got home it was all most four and she tried to talk me out of going to my land, too late you see. I when anyway and got on my spot around 4pm, that deer came walking in from the east along the trail by a and I shot him, it was 4:15. I go home, my aunt in a snarkey voice you get anything, I put the liver in the sink. A friend help me drag it out, that was the hard part, hung in it the garage, and for the rest of the day and night my aunt bitched about it hanging in the garage. It was my house, and she was free loading off of me and it still was not enough. Great deer never the less, they aged him at a least 12years old, a very beat up old buck. 'Would have never seen him if I just didn't go. Better yet I got rid of the Aunt a little while after, it just cost me the house.

I live and hunt in Saskatchewan, have not weighed many deer, but did kill a couple that were pretty good size, one was 265 field dressed, the other was a fair bit bigger. Have shot several that were certainly over 300 lbs. on the hoof. In our group of hunting buddies nobody shoots a "magnum" of any sort, and the only reason anything bigger than a .243 or 25-06 is used is because most of us use our elk and moose rifles for deer too. A couple of years ago we decided to hunt for mature bucks instead of better tasting does and yearlings. A picture is below, sadly none of those deer were weighed but a couple were pretty heavy. They were shot with .250 Savage, 7mm08, .308, 30-06, and 8mm Mauser if I remember correctly. A couple other chamberings that we use are the .270 and 6.5x55.
I find it really quite funny when I meet a visiting American in the bush and he shows me his .300 Weatherby that he's going to slay a HUGE Saskatchewan whitetail with. I think such chamberings are harder for most hunters to shoot well, and our deer aren't wearing body armour.

Ingwe: Yup.Big body; he looks LONG!

Castnblast: Some real nice whitetails there!IME there are two categories of big bucks in Canada,from New Brunswick clear to Alberta(never hunted BC).

There is your average "big";and then there is REALLY BIG!In many trips there I have killed the biggest-bodied mule deer of life there;a real genuine giant.The two biggest whitetails I have seen there were true monsters,in body and rack.One was killed by a companion,and this buck dwarfed a 145-class 10 point that would easily have dressed over 200 pounds.The larger buck looked like another species.....he was killed at about 175 yards with a 270.

The other was a true giant alive in a field in Alberta; only the reluctance of a companion to shoot at 250 yards saved him that day.He was fodder for the cover of BIG BUCK Magazine,in rack and body...

The 300 Weatherby is a fine cartridge...no doubt.But watching a lot of guys sight in on these Canadian hunts leads me to the same conclusions.They almost always seem to be pretty "innocent" guys,not very astute when it comes to rifles...they will tell you they need the 300 mag for a "long shot";but I've taken them out to 400 yards(even 300)at the range;they are completely clueless,have never in their lives fired a round at either distance,and the groups are "minute-of-mini-bus";no deer is in any danger around these guys beyond 100-200 yards.I'm being generous.....

It is hard to convince them they are outclassed by any smaller cartridge,and some cling tenaciously to the big 30's.

IME there are two kinds of 300 magnum shooters....those who don't have a clue,...and those who know EXACTLY what they are doing.It ain't hard to tell the difference.

Shhhhhhhhaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwiiiiiinnnnnnnnnggggggggg.
Awwwwhhhhhhhh, the heavy/dark-antlered whitetails of Saskatchewan - nirvana. I need a cold shower.

Truer words were never spoken.
Only exception for me to that was last year - I did note a gent from Georgia in the Manitoba outfit I was hunting that was toting a 300 Ultra - I was CERTAIN he was one of the guys you meet on every hunt with a cannon and little sense. The first night he passed on a shot in ridiculously high wind at 350 - I gave him a high five and began to think I was sadly mistaken. The next night, when the weather calmed, he bang/flopped a nice buck at 505 yards, confirming I was VERY sadly mistaken. (which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone here)

Me too...I might have soiled myself!...
Ingwe

castnblast might have to be put on "ignore" if he keeps up with that stuff.

Skane: You gotta watch the southern boys...they shoot those beanfields and many know what they're doing at distance

He had plenty of glass but no turrets or dots - the next thing someone is going to tell me is that deer can be shot at 400 yards with a 4x scope...

Castnblast, that's a great pic, and pretty good testimony that you Canucks can kill the biggest bodied deer on the planet with "regular" old calibers.

Well.....of course we both know they can't

I think I pee my pants a little bit.

Good lawd that is a lot of horn.

That's an astute comment followed by an all star quote! BobinNH, you're on a roll.

I'm more familiar with mule deer in BC. Several of my friends who have killed truly huge bucks have all commented that the big ones are like a different species. A hunter from Ft. St. John used to post here had scale weights on mature mule deer bucks that would blow your mind. I've personally seen two on a scale that field dressed over 300 lbs. and boned out a few others as big or bigger.

Huge does not mean greatly more difficult to kill however, just big.

I've been wanting to go North for a while now, and pics like that make the itch worse. Damn you ingwe, castnblast, SKane, BobinNH, tzone......

Welll, this one didn't weigh #300 either,but I thought I'd send off tonight with one more pic...just for you...my wife two seasons ago..

Ingwe

okanagan: A few years back in Alberta, I had several bucks in front of me,far end of a field,that came out of the bush during the rut.Bucks/does everywhere.....

There was one that bedded down that was big,but the rest were feeding out into the field and I'm figuring it was early enough,I'd wait him out,and if the big one got another 100 yards or so closer, I'd kill him.

About 10 minutes later,I'm watching and then this THING walked into the field,just strode out and my first reaction was...."What the hell is THAT!".....because he just dwarfed everything else in the field and made my "big" one look pretty average.......I'll spare you the rest of the story.....


I killed one a couple years later in the breaks of the Peace that went 230 or so "hog dressed",gutted,head and hide off,legs off at the knees.....he was an old buck,not much through the horns and on the "mend",but was so enormous I gawked for several minutes before killing him.

The truly big one's ARE different;highly nocturnal even in lightly hunted country, very deliberate, not prone to panic,unlikely or harder to get to break cover;adept at finding impossible bedding areas ,never far from cover,and their main focus is to avoid being SEEN.They seem to understand very well that they are most vulnerable when moving and visible.They make no rash decisions,and you HAVE to move VERY deliberatly and slowly through bedding areas(assuming you can get that close).

When still-hunting these areas,it's a bonny good idea to double back or fishhook in heavy cover,because you will likely go by them,assuming there was nothing there.The pressure may get to them the second time around.

Mule deer hunting CAN be a long-range affair,but I've killed my biggest ones in moderate to heavy cover where a lighter fast handling bolt gun with a modest scope is more suitable than a 26" barreled 300 magnum.

Unless they get very lucky the first time,many guys that go to Canada kill an average "big" one and are happy......until they see a REALLY big buck.Then they are screwed...like me....the reason I hunted 14 days and passed several 170's and a 180-ish buck.....I guessed right 3 hours into day #1,found the "true hog" at 20 yards and hesitated a bit too long.I hunted that buck for the next 13 days,and never saw him again......I know he was still there.


JG: If you value your sanity and the contents of your wallet...do NOT go to Canada for mule deer

Admit it. You just don't want the competition.

KW: There really is not very much of it up there....the tough part is getting a tag,and I never know year to year if I will have whitetail or mule deer...

Canada is the reason that I no longer chase tags in the lower 48,other than one region in Wyoming. I have hunted the "bush" units of Northern Alberta as well,for whitetails and mule deer......talk about "no pressure"! Alberta is a truly remarkable place for whitetails. It really is way beyond expectation,and by far the "best" in NA,IMHO.

I've posted this one before, he was wayyyy up there in the weight department too, falling shy of 3 bills because he was surprisingly short in length for a mature buck. Best guess on him was 7 years old, pretty hard to tell beyond that on the gum line but his best days were long past. Guess I just took pity on him.

Book the trip JG....<grins>

.....you can learn to hate people like this.......

Back to the drawing board for me! Now that I've seen a really big one....I've killed spike elk smaller than that whitetail!
That thing is almost scary!
Ingwe

Right place, right time is all. Patience and sticktoitiveness is all I've got because I'm grossly unable to rely on intellect.

JG-
This one was shot far closer to you than Canada - Kansas. He's the biggest bodied deer I've ever taken. Photo was taken when I got home - I left my camera on the BED OF MY TRUCK when I transported this guy.

WOW!...speechless...
Ingwe

Unreal......

You guys have gotten me flat pissed off now........Skane that last pig from Canada you showed is simply amazing.....I like being pissed......keep 'em coming boys!

Bobin - Have you chased those big Saskatchewan mulies? I am VERY interested in that...

Kentucky, I'm obviously not Bob, but it's residents only in Saskatchewan for mulies unless you're on Indian ground. If it were different I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Kentucky: JG is right(as usual);the Sask mule deer are a resident thing.But I understand a guy can hook up on Indian reservations,but I have not really ever looked into that.I'm certain it's pretty pricey.

But from what I hear, very big one's are there.But I also believe a guy should pick a camp with good potential,and give it 3-4 years. As you know, it takes time to kill a big deer of any species.And I think a true hog can come from many areas of Canada.

Scott: I'm gonna call you and we need to discuss JG. I am really concerned about him cause he is starting to think he's gonna get up to Canahdah and kill one as big as that Sonora buck in his avatar.

We need a strategy to get him calmed down.....

I have more chance of killing a 30-lb deer than a 300-lb deer around here. Our deer are tiny compared to those beasts! Those look as big as a spike elk.

I killed a young doe once that was the size of a long-legged dog. Not a large dog.

OK, Robert, thanks for the warning.....<grins>

I always thought JG's avatar was a reproduction - didn't think they got that big. Guys that shoot big mule deer with great frequency are no doubt jealous of that one.

I haven't a clue on mule deer and worry that if I ever got bitten by that bug I'd be poverty stricken in a hurry. I'd better stick with the "jumpers" for the time being.

Yes,you'd be screwed....mule deer are addictive. They LOOK like they're easy to hunt.Hah!

SKANE - nice friggin' deer!

Anybody ever hunt around Dryden, ON? I'm likely headed up there in November with my Dad - being I didn't get an elk tag

They've killed some nice bucks up (130-150's) but the thing that stands out is the body size. The one Dad killed last year only scores 138-139 but I'll bet it dressed at 250. The neck is as big around as my waist.

I better get the 375 tuned up <g>

b: 270,280,30/06....there are others,but really.....who cares about them?

bwinters-

I've hunted the Dryden area several times.
This one came from that area - the bush though, not the farmland to the west.

It's the same buck as the one I posted earlier. (hanging from the endloader) Sorry for the bloody mess around the nose - turns some peeps off.

Dude...I knew you were a Browning guy.

I'll try to scan in some pics at lunch time...I like this thread.

No worries on the bloody nose mate, that's part of the game. There is a buck on the buck board at our Gander MT. Beautiful deer, picture taken next to the gut pile.

Here is the one in got in MN this year. Head and neck of a big dude...rack and body, not so much.

Weighed 184# dressed.

[img][IMG]http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/tzone777/IMG_2203.jpg[/img][/img]

Here is another whopper from this past year, WI buck.

[img][IMG]http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/tzone777/Picture004.jpg[/img][/img]

One more to drool on...200# dressed, 162 offical net.

[img][IMG]http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/tzone777/DSC00121.jpg[/img][/img]

That last buck is going to be in the upcoming North American Whitetail, in the July issue. That is my friends buck from WI last bow season. Her first one with a bow.

tzone; I like the one in the middle with the pug nose...almost made me jump out of my seat and reach for the BBQ sauce!
I shot a mule deer last year bigger than that...when someone had to ask " What did he score?" I ventured the guess...about 15 B&C points gross, maybe 13 net...but he had AWESOME G-1s!
The girls bow kill...now thats a different matter! I wanna shoot one like that when I grow up! Excellent.Good pics!
Ingwe

Great bucks,tzone! I like them all. A 184 is still a big deer

Tom, the first buck I ever shot up at deer camp was a twin to the one in the middle. Took it with a Rem 760 in 30-06.

Your friends bow kill is really nice. Going to be tough to beat it.

Bill, believe it or not, that thing came out of the Mead!

If I get a chance, I'll scan in some I have of my biggest, a true hog. 227# dressed, and my biggest. He was very rutted out, I'd like to see what he weighed two weeks before I shot him.

He was longer than a 6 1/2' truck box, though I didn't really check the true length.

Ingwe,

The G1's on that little guy were only 4" but he makes up for it in mass.

He pushed the scales to about 80# dressed, but the venni sausage was good.

I'm still in awe of the lass that slayed that farging hog. What a dandy, DANDY buck.


Now, how did I know some smart @ss would bring up the Browning hat? If pressed for a likely candidate, I'd have bet the farm on you. Believe it or not, I'd forgotten to pack a baseball hat and it's the only orange baseball hat they had in Fort Scott, KS. I'll send it to you, as I know you're a die hard Buckmark man.

Although none of us have ever killed a 300 lb deer at our whitetail camp in the TX Panhandle, we've tried out best to eat 300 lbs of biscuits during the week......

[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/179119514208_0_ALB.jpg[/img][/img]


This is the biggest bodied buck I've ever shot. I know this pic doesn't do much justice to this buck, but I'm 6'2" and go 245lbs (lard ass), but this buck had a chest girth of 52" right behind the shoulders. The ranch foreman who's seen many dead mature deer say mature bucks like this have been weighed many times at 335 live/275 field dressed and I believe it.

[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/CopyofJGLetterB025.jpg[/img][/img]

Not only do I appreciate this, I wholeheartedly APPLAUD it! Sometimes the women deer aren't safe with us, especially if my coon'ass buddies show up wanting to cook something.

That right there is a lot of Mulie! Nice buck.

I too have a blaze Browning hat. It's my deer hunting hat. Faded, stinky, dirty, sweaty, never been washed. Still shoot bucks at 10 yds or so.

It does get a healthy dose of Sent Killer several time a day though.

ANY cut from that little dude would be good!
Ingwe

Oh my, JG....That's a big'un.....

OK, that's it! I have had enough of you guys!Every time I turn around I gotta look at JG's Sonora buck and (like that's the only thing he ever shot),he sneaks in with another hog like "ho-hum" here's my biggest one....." And I gotta look at the breakfast table ,too which resembles the Last Supper...

....and then Scott comes in with these ridiculous pigs from gawd knows where,like HE'S been doing this for 30+ years,and I know he's young enough to be my son ......I have to tolerate Tzone shooting a 184 he thinks is "small" (yawn),till I learn his biggest buck is EXACTLY the same weight as my biggest from Maine,also killed at the tail end of the rut......and then, a wee little girl shoots a 162.....Cripes!

It becomes all to much to handle,all at once on here.....and I wonder am I standing still? Or hunting in the wrong places every year?........I'm gonna go have a beer.......

Make it a Jack on the rocks!

tzone - I have the twin to your 184lb on my wall (actually still in a box from the move). My rack may be a bit wider and has a broken point. I stabbed him with a broadhead in 93.

He's actually a funny story. My buddy was hunting 3-4 big bucks on a farm down the road from his house. He had just started bowhunting and I helped set him up - bow, stands, tips, etc. He hunted these bucks for 3 weeks and was giving up. He invited me to hunt and I jumped at the chance - I knew the deal. My buddy liked to hunt along the woods-field line. I tried to convince him to hunt a logging road coming out of a thick side hill. He half hearted tried it a few nites.

I hunted back off the field for two nights and had bucks around me both nights - but was not far enough back in to catch them coming to the field before dark. In fact, I had a buck rub a tree literally 5 feet from my treestand one night after dark. I saw him coming and he did the typical buck thing and staged up, goofed off, rubbed a few trees. I didn't want to spook him so stayed in the tree for ~ 45 after dark waiting for him to leave. I waited a few days till the last week of October, picked a perfect cool, clear evening, went back to the logging road, found 2-3 fresh scrapes, hung a buck lure canister, set up 15 yards downwind. About 20 minutes before dark I hear a deer walking and sure enough here comes a dandy up the logging road, hits the scrape - lip curl, urination - the whole deal. Broadside at 15 yards - I had seen that shot before................

My buddy has killed a few deer from that logging road since. It's a classic set-up - just wait for the end of the season and a good wind night.

I think those our Northern friends have those deer on the 'roids....I've never seen anything like it. Bobin is playing us fellas.....he's probably got more big bucks than I'll ever see (Skane has proven he does). Nice try Bob.

I can assure you guys of one thing. While my hunting skills may be lacking, I can eat bisquits with the best of 'em.

I'm thinkin' you are right! Didn't Bob start this thread? I think hes knows something we don't...
And you are right SKane can sit the rest of this one out...I don't know how many more feelings of inadequacy I can handle!
Ingwe

I've pretty much played all my cards......I can now enjoy the rest of this thread, pics, etc while hanging my head in shame. There's no telling what tzone will pull out of his hat......I anxiously await more HGH infested deer pics from the yanks! Ingwe, you're not entirely innocent yourself my friend.

Sure I am. I'm just the proverbial blind hog that has stumbled on to a few acorns..
I killed a REALLY little one last year...honest!
But I gotta say, the venison was a pink/grey color instead of that dark mule deer red...and it was the first to dissappear from the freezer!
Ingwe

Okay, what the hell, heres another one..I posted this someplace else, so forgive me if youve seen it...I'm running out of pics!

Ingwe

OK last one...honest.I'm sorry, things are a little slow tonight...

Ingwe

Dang, you've put an awful lot of good mulies on the turf. Nice!

And, gents, I know for a fact that friend Bob is holding out on us. We need to start scanning some picts Bob!

I'm guessing from the times on alot of his posts, hes an insomniac, let set our alarms for 2:30 am , get up and hound him into fessin up...
You go first...
Ingwe

Here is a 334 Pound, 9pt whitetail I killed on Nov. 19, 2004, near Paris, Missouri. It was the longest shot I have ever attempted on any game. It was 528 measured yards, almost corner-to-corner on a 40 acre corn field. One shot with a Win 70 Classic Stainless .308 Win. with 150gr Speer Spitzer Hotcore over a max load of RL-15 at around 2900 fps. I practiced regularly with this rifle and load out to 500 meters (about 547 yds) on the metallic silhouette range near my house, so I was confident with the shot. The buck was broadside, and I hit him just behind the shoulder blade, but at that range there was no exit wound (that really surprised me). But still, the buck only went about 20 yds and piled up.







At the processor, the "docked carcass" (field dressed, plus head, hide and lower legs removed) still weighed 198 pounds.

Skeezix: Great deer!And nice work shooting as well

I'm waiting for Greenhorn to show up with some of those creatures he shoots.

MAN!!! There are some BUCKS on here!

Ingwe: I have some pics hanging around somewhere but they're scattered,and on film....how the hell do you get those on the computer?

I DID have an Alberta buck posted on here a couple years ago...dunno how to find it. You guys are flushing me out.....I'll get some photos over to Scott.They are not as large as some of the bucks here, but I was impressed when I shot them

mudhen: If it's liquid,and brown, it's good by me

skeezix-

I think the term used in fishing is "lunker". That's BIG-nice shootin' too.

Bob's right, for the sake of our ego's, we'd better hope Greenhorn doesn't show...*laughin*

Greenie has a pic of a deer he shot while quite young that makes me drool. It's a lunker.

As to our buddy Bob - its called chummin' I'm sure he's got a few to share.


Bob, If you scan the pics, save as a pdf, you can post them. Unfortunately the quality sucks. I'm looking to do the same for a few bucks I've killed. 'Cept I can't hang with the big dogs, so I should stay on the porch - or under it...........

b: Me,too!

Bob, all my pics are on old fashioned film, I took them to a Kodak kiosk and scanned them into CD form,loaded that into my computer, and uploaded them into a photobucket account ( free) From there its, click, copy and paste...
I am REALLY technologically challenged and trust me, if I can do it...
One hint, if you use a Kodak kiosk, use the generic CD and not theirs, its a softeware PITA thing....
Ingwe

Ingwe: I assume I could take them to Staples also to do this?I found a few (not all). I am pretty sloppy when it comes to pictures,not at all as diligent as I should be.....

Not too many back here were interested but me...

But thanks for that tip...I will follow up on that.

I've ben thinking about this thread after posting on it the first time way back toward the beginning.

What is it about 300-pound deer? THERE'S MORE MEAT ON 'EM!!!

Bob, Staples should be fine.BTW when you go to post from the photobucket account, click and copy on " IMG Code"...
Mule Deer; PM sent.
Ingwe

+1 to that

I give up a big AMEN to that MD. It took me over 30 years to kill anything over 180", partly because my stomach took control over what little brain I have.

JB: I'll tell ya,and you've said it in articles before and I remember it,but these BIG bucks,killed before the rut,eat like butter.
That hog I killed in Alberta was fabulous and we ate him down to the toes.Merlin, my Alberta outfitter,is a butcher by trade,and he "chunked" him for me,like into roasts instead of steaks.

So what I do is marinade the roasts in the refer for 5-6 days,and then put one on the grill.I have non-hunting friends who come over when I do this and they want to know when we can do it again.....so I gently but firmly tell them to get a rifle and go get their own

Merlin says I am one of very few hunters who goes to the trouble of getting my meat back from Alberta;but I would no more think of leaving it than I would using someone else's rifle to kill one

Bob, thats pretty much what Ive been doing as well, cut 'em into roasts and marinate- though I usually inject them to speed up the process. Sear on the grill, put the lid on and change the position every ten minutes or so...cut into steaks....MUCH juicier and more tender than pre-cut steaks!
And in my experience, mule deer need to be kinda hand picked to be really good, but Ive never had bad whitetail, 55 pound fawn or 300 pounders in the rut, whitetail is ALWAYS good!
Ingwe

My stomach takes control more often than not these days, especially when I have a fistful of Whitetail Doe tags...
I'm getting too old and fat to run the ridges, I have all the horns I can eat, and those haystack deer with pudgy bodies look better every year!
Ingwe

Hey Ingwe and Bobin..I too marinate for a few days. Care to share your secret marinade recipe? Mine is the plain old zesty italian dressing.

Ingwe, you need to go visit my parents.
Bring some earplugs though, it gets kinda loud shootin' out the kitchen window towards the silage pit.....(grin)

Ingwe:I've been lucky with mule deer and they have been generally good.But yes the whitetail seem to do better in the rut than the mule deer. The one I killed in late November (posted here somewhere)ate great,and at -25 degrees he had no chance to spoil!

The roasts ARE better IMO,and I don't "steak" them anymore.

I picked out a fat 4x4 in Alberta the last day to take home last year,and I missed downhill through the tree tops,so came home with no meat.....

JG: That works about as good as anything, and mine is nothing exotic or fancy. I defrost,hand dry the roast,and use an olive oil with either balsamic or red wine vinegar(sometimes I add a splash of red wine that falls outta my glass).

Sprinkle generously with salt,pepper,some Italian seasoning,and crushed up garlic cloves(fresh,always).I hand rub all this stuff on to the roast and stick in a glass dish, covered with cling wrap.Every 24 hours I flip it over,and spread the marinade.

Only CLOSE friends are allowed to partake.As the roasts near readiness,high security measures are required.More than once I have returned home to discover my son sitting,burping contentedly,and with a guilty expression,exclaims..."Gee Dad, that venison roast was REALLY good".... kids.....

Earplugs no problemo...
How many tags can I get at their place? and can we arrange to "grain" 'em about a month ahead of time?
Ingwe

My fave is " Mr. Yoshidas" Sauce a teriyaki thing you can get at Costco...simple, easy, and good...kinda like me!
OK...OK... two out of three???
Ingwe

Bob & others: I appreciate the kind words. That lunker is by far the largest in body size that I've ever taken.

And what Ingwe said is right: If you take your pics to a Kodak kiosk, for GOD'S SAKE DON'T use the Kodak disk. He is absolutely correct that the associated software is a royal PITA!

And I really like what Mule Deer said about processing the deer in chunks. I did that to this past season's buck (240lb 10pt whitetail). Have really enjoyed the roasts and have tried a couple of his better half's recipes. MMMMMmmmmmMMMMM!!! Even MY wife liked it. Getting ready to do some in the smoker.

BTW: As a matter of scale in the lunker pics I posted, the truck that my buck was in was an '01 F250 Super Duty. Big truck and big deer. Here's another with my German Shep, Bo in it. He was really stout built and around 95 lbs in that pic, and you can see how the buck dwarfed him.

Skeezix; thanks for latest pic for perspective. I would have like to seen you standing next to that deer in the pic of him hanging...Anyway, Ive shot alot of them that looked like that, but they were lying in the bed of a Nissan pickup!!!
And my dog is an Australian Shepherd ( about 50 lbs) !
Ingwe

Gotta agree with that! Thanks. That one drew a belly laugh out of me and that's a good feeling.

Ditto as well to chunking meat in quality roasts that can be steaked easily. I started experimenting with that a couple of years ago and did quite a bit of a moose that way last Fall. Lately I've been powder coating them with Rudy's Rub just before I start cooking them, a dry mix I got from a barbeque place in San Antonio. When I'm alone, I cook them in a skillet and start slicing steaks off the end of the roast as soon as they are seared and cooked a quarter inch deep or so. I'll flop the rare side down for a few seconds and go at it. Hoooeee... I gotta go fix some of that.

A double handful of mushrooms in the skillet don't hurt things a bit.

It's all about ego....pure and simple.

Much bigger animals than 300 pounds are killed handily with the .30-06 and less every year.....and not just a few.....a helluva lot of em.

Bob, here's a me too story, brought to my mind as I read your account of the big buck that dwarfed the others.

Two Decembers ago was the last time I saw one of the monster size mule deer. It was a migration route in timber with occasional clearcut. Grey dawn; trees, brush and deer were black silhouttes against the snow. Glassing through peekaboo gaps in timber I spotted a nice average 3 year old with at least three and probably a 4x4 rack. I moved to get a better look and saw two more larger bucks sparring near him in a ragged clearcut. All three bucks had swollen necks, blocky bodies and the two larger ones were heavy and deep. I started an approach stalk.

Then I saw a buck that simply dwarfed the others, standing apart a little from them. I would not have realized how big he was had the other bucks not been there for comparison. Massive deep and long body and huge neck against the snow, with his head against a black timber background hiding all but the faintest whiff of antlers when he moved. I never got a look at his rack.

Crunchy snow did me in on my approach. The other three bucks bolted, but he smoothly stepped behind brush and slipped away into the timber. I'm still thinking about that buck, and will be there again this Dec. as I was last year.

Okanagan: I hope you find him! Yes a really big one like that,once seen,is very hard to forget.They are so much larger than an average "big" deer that my first reaction is always ..."What is THAT"; I know it's a mule deer,but mysense are not ready to accept it.You are in BC correct? I have seen some pictures of absolute brutes from BC.

My feeble advise(not that you need it is that when I see a buck like that from now on,I am not going to waste any time sizing up racks. It has got me into too much trouble,and I can think of two massive bucks within the last few years that I should have just killed instead of trying to size them up....BIG mistake....reading too much of this B&C stuff.A buck that big and old is a trophy regardless of his head gear.

And I've found you had better kill him pretty quick once you see him,because they have a wraith-like ability to just melt off undetected.

I truly hope he is still around for you come the fall.....


And the steaks/roast sound great prepared like that!

+ 1 on a big old buck like that being a trophy no matter what his headgear. This is in central BC and most of the bucks don't have antlers to compare with Colorado and Arizona deer.

He may be gone but he will have left some genetics. I have racks from three mega bodied bucks taken in that area, up to seven years apart, and they all have the same antler frame configuration. All but one have an odd point in the same spot, plus a couple more smaller bucks with that genetic marker.

With the blitzkrieg clearcutting of recent years due to pine bugs, mule deer population is rapidly growing in that part of BC. At least one forester I know, and I, believe that the bugs are doing what unsuppressed fire accomplished in centuries past. There aren't many high scoring bucks there but with the increase in numbers and feed quality, I predict that an increased number of B&C bucks will come out of that region within the next three to seven years. That still won't be many record book bucks.

Alberta is a better bet for mega body bucks, and they have bigger antlers as well. And it is usually at least a little more open to see them and hunt them.

I found another pict last night of the "round mound" from Manitoba.

Good Lord...

That's probably 130"+ of horns on 350lbs of whitetail.....unbelievable.

Odd, I don't see any marks in the pic where the jockey was hittin' him...
Ingwe

Alright, see if this works, I hope it does. No more light weights (me included) here is a MN buck...227# Don't have an offical score, but for an 8, its up there. 10" g2's, long brows, 22" main beams, 18.5" wide.

Shot in the thick and nasty behind me in the pic. 7yds.

[img][IMG]http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/tzone777/8-ptMNbuck_Page_2.jpg[/img][/img]

This pic shows how wide he is, he's dressed and his ribs are still wider than his hips and shoulders.
[img][IMG]http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr102/tzone777/8-ptMNbuck_Page_1.jpg[/img][/img]

Nearly no fat after skinning him, but I'll be damned if he didn't taste better than any deer we've ever eaten.

Dats a NICE whitetail!!!
Ingwe

Beautiful deer! I really like the mass of that rack.

Thanks, the tines are "bladed" too, so they look kind of neat.

Cool! I've got one on the wall that's "bladed" like that (but not as nice as yours), and you're right, they look neat. I killed one in NW Alabama about 15 years ago that was palmated on one side. That had to have given him a neck-ache totin' around that wopsided rack.

Well, I live in the area and hunt the whitetails in question...

I/we've used everything from a .257 Roberts (favourite), .250/3000 (.250 Savage), .264 Win, .260 Rem, .280 Ack Imp (favourite), just bought a 7mm RSUM, 7mm Rem mag, 7mm-08, .300 Weatherby, H&H and Win mags, .30 WCF, .318 WR, .35 Rem, .35 Whelan .358 Win, .45/70 and the most, 75%, were taken with a .303 British...

The quarter bores (.250) would be the smallest calibre that I would even consider...As we might encounter moose in some of the areas while deer hunting most of the guys, with moose & deer tags, carry heavier calibers, so hence the big mags and .35 calibres...I prefered my .318 WR and just love the .358 Win Browning BLR for moose!

The primary difference was whether we were hunting grains fields or scrub brush or heavy bush and that dictates what we used...Fields go for miles so any distance is foreseeable but 200 to 300 is the norm, scrub bush anything from 25 to 250 yds with a 125 to 150 norm and thick bush of 25 to maybe 125 yds with the most around 60 to 75 yds...

We also go for archery and blackpowder seasons and use 50# bows and .50 or .54 round balls or sabots in the in-line guns that some of the relatives are using now...

We are meat hunters and will take a large doe, preferably, if allowed in that area over any buck--better tasting meat...I have been deer hunting since 1959/60 and my first deer was with a borrowed, open sighted .303 from one of my uncles and shot at around 125 yds away standing almost broadside in my grandfather's grain field (which I now own)...

Killed a 160 class buck in central Mississippi a few years ago. Live weight of this buck was 304lbs. He was aged at 7 1/2 yrs. 7-08 with a 140XLC from about 220yds dropped him like a sack of sand. Shot was quartering to and POI was where neck/shoulder meet up. Innards looked like jello. I'm no northern deer expert, but i'd say its a safe bet those deer are just the same as the ones down south. IMO...outfitters want large calibers with heavy bullets and high velocities...so even if the shot isnt exactly where you wanted it, you'll blow the deer in half so it cant run far. Thus, no lost game and no long drawn out tracking.

I came home with a 140lb deer, you guys make me green.

It was shot with the 'ol reliable 30-06. Never would guess it was remington corelokts 150gr too. Oh the HUMANITY.

I've been doing the Canada thing for the past couple years lately, and the
30-06 has no trouble gettin er done.

SKane, you're right on about the guys with the big mouths, big mouths, big calibers and they shoot SMALL deer!

The worst part about those big rascals is loading the darn things when you are by yourself. We get a 250-275lber on the hoof(prerut) once in a while over in the MS Delta. If I'm by myself, I just drag em back to the truck with an atv and right up on the trailer. A 200lber is about all I care to fool with when it comes to loading one on the rack of an atv.

My wife took this buck with a .257 Rbts. He was about 205 lbs dressed, but with just her and I to drag it up out of the canyon in all that snow, I would have sworn he was 400# when we got done!

Biggest whitetail I shot dressed 250 lbs. 308 handled him just fine. Largest one I have personally seen in my area went 26z lbs dressed. 308 put that guy down with 1 shot too.

While in college I worked for the Maine Dept. of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife taking weights, antler measuresments, and tooth samples of bucks shot in northern Aroostook County. In those 2 years I weighted a lot of deer and the biggest I saw (weight wise) was 265 dressed followed by a 264. In my humble opinion, it takes a big deer to dress at over 200 pounds and a huge one to get over 250.

The biggest deflator of egos is a certifed scale. The sad part was hunters who were tickled pink with a deer they thought would dress at over 200 pounds were pissed that it "only" dressed at 185. Still a great deer no matter what.

The older I get the less I want to drag a deer. A little doe isn't too bad, but on a deer of any size, I would say 200yds is about the max.

I just skin it up one side.. get the two quarters, backstrap and loin and any easy rib meat, Flip it over and do the same on the other side. Took me an hour first time I tried, now its about half that. Its very rare to see eastern deer hunters quarter and carry, but these days a half mile drag will about kill me.

On an average deer I can carry the whole deal and head out in one trip.. a real toad I might have to do two.

I watched a grown man litteraly pout at the Butternut Feed Mill, in Butternut, WI because his buck 'only' weighed 195#. He was sure it in the 220 range.

BTW, I'd venture a conservative guess it scored in the 150's and he was upset.

I hunt with some guys from Maine every once in a while. They tell me guys get more worked up about weight than horns up that way.

Down here we have such a mixed bag of weights depending on the fertility of the soil that I really don't care if they weigh 120 or 275. Those light ones sure are easy to drag.

this is pretty accurate. horns dont get me stemmy, big bodys are what we go after. somethin about that 200 lb club patch, cant get enough of em' however, generally speaking those bigger deer tend to carry a hell of a rack when thay get up over 200 but the smallers racked bucks, crotch horns spikes and smaller 6ers generally weigh in between 140-165 dressed

First deer I ever killed was an 8-point buck that dressed 192 lbs. Even that was a heck of a drag for my Dad and I (I was 16), but at least it was all down hill! I don't know if I have any digital pictures of that fella. Those toads from Canada sure are something else entirely though. Are they cross-breeding them with holsteins or something? Grin...

I didn't go thru all 31 pages here...

I am sure someone mentioned that the biggest recorded buck on record was shot in Sterns County MN, and supposedly 425 lbs or so on the hoof, and it was shot with a lever action... likely a 30/30 or 32 Special...

my biggest buck was a whitetail in St Louis County MN, north of Chisholm... weighed about 340 on the Hoof according to the DNR biologist...field cleaned at 265 lbs...

that one was taken with a 444 Marlin...in 1984... at about 30 below zero...

the biggest in maine was 355 dressed taken by author hinkley. in 1955. i believe he shot it w/ a 32-40

I think a good many of the 300 lb deer were never actually weighed. From a conversation with an Alberta outfitter he has yet to bring in a (field dressed) 300 lb whitetail by the scale.

But, I see nothing wrong with a big exit hole from a fast magnum especially when hunting down a cut line through the thick stuff.

Well, some parts of WI get 200# bucks, but in that part I'd never seen one or seen one killed. My FIL was sure he killed on WAAAY over 200. Kept telling me "this is the biggest bodied deer I've ever killed". He was pissed I kept saying "180-190#", that was a big body buck for that area and it went just over 190. He couldn't believe it either.

My dad got a 12 pt in the U. P. in the mid 90's that weighed 197 on a scale after being gutted and hanging three days. There aren't many, but there are some.

We are talking "deer"- not "dear"

hahaha i know a few places up in northern maine where you can find some of those manatoba monkeys as well. any of you boys evcer come up ill point ya towards 'em hahaha

After reading through this a bit...I gotta quit shooting elk with my 150 grain -06 loads....chit!

I've shot 2 big deer in the past 20 years in NE, both under 100 yards with a 25 WSSM, 110 grain AB, and a 260, 129 grain Hornady SpirePoint. Both were shot through the lungs, behind the shoulder. The deer shot with the 260 went, maybe, 20 yards before piling up and the deer shot with the 25 WSSM fell over dead in its tracks.

No air breathing animal can go far if you Wreck their lungs and since deer aren't usually dangerous, I don't see any reason to break bones if the target offers you a lung shot.

JEff

If I ever saw a 300lbs deer first thing I would do is check what state/province I'm in. Second, I hope my 308 or 30-06 would work as that's what I plan to elk hunt with. I'll just make sure that the range is under 301 yards.

I remember reading about this in Sports Afield, many decades ago. I thought he used a Model 1886 Winchester chambered for the old .33 WCF, but I can't remember for sure.

i have the article somewheres, i actually tried finding it the other night so to post it. i know it wasnt a .33 but i also could be mistaken about the 32-40 as well....i WILL find it lol

I see the cause as lack of experience. They use advice from other people to replace it and some of the advice is specious.

Most folks don't kill enough animals to really know what a given round will do. Compounding that is some of us have so many rifles we rarely shoot more than two animals with the same rifle in a given year.

I admit to shooting an animal with a ne to me round and trying to see if it fits with what I have read.

For example, I now agree that a 225 Bearclaw out of a .338 Win or a .35 Whelen appear to kill deer a little slower than my '06 used with Partitions. Based on a sample of five does killed with the larger rifles and many with the '06. Similarly I find the 225 Hornady appears to be a bit too much for my taste when used on does. Is any of that true? Who knows?

My heaviest deer was shot with a .300 Savage 150 gr. It weighed well over 300 lbs. It just laid over against the bank it was standing by. I got a past prime bench legged blacktail/muley near Estacada that was probably over 300# but never weighed it. It went about 40 yards but it was moving when I shot it. Deer, even big deer are pretty easy to kill.

Posted this before...247 lbs dressed weight on a Fennimore Roller Mills scale 1965.

I shot an 8 point in PA back in 1992, that I honestly say
weighed 180 on the hoof. I have know several guys that have
killed some monsters in WI, MI, and MN.

we were both wrong, although i couldnt find my hard copy of this an article on this buck i did find one on the net. it says he had an '06. i do know thats not what the other article read because i chuckled when i read it and then looked at the energy charts on the 38-40 just for grins. i read it sometime last fall. but theis is a neat read just the same.

"Each fall, the annual gathering of the red coats brings on a renewed enthusiasm and expectation. As groups of hunters find their way to their traditional hunting camps, talk of big deer abounds. The anticipation of meeting up with the buck of your dreams fuels the desire as you encroach upon his domain.

One such buck in Maine's rich deer-hunting history met and surpassed even the wildest dreams of a 59-year-old hunter back in 1955. Horace R. Hinckley did what no other hunter has been able to match since, by shooting the heaviest whitetail buck on record within the state of Maine. In fact, Hinckley's buck places second in all of North America, only to a Minnesota buck shot in 1926 by Carl Lenandor. Carl's buck topped the scales at 402 pounds dressed.

The events surrounding the taking of this enormous animal are Horace's own words, excerpted from the August 1969 issue of Outdoor Life. I certainly would not want you to think I had any first hand knowledge, seeing as I was nothing more than a mere twinkle in Pop's eye when this momentous occasion occurred.

Little did Horace know as he struck off that morning that he was about to embark on a whitetail record that would stand for forty-three years. Days off for a lumber worker came only on holidays and during inclement weather. Vacations were out of the question, especially to go deer hunting. The Hinckleys hunted when they could, and because of expected rain on the first Saturday of deer season, they jumped at the opportunity to hunt.

Trophy hunting as we view it today had no bearing on the Hinckley mindset. They hunted deer out of enjoyment and to lay up sweet tasting venison for the coming winter.

Horace, his wife Olive, their son Philip and his wife Madeline traveled 60 miles from their Augusta home to hunt Northwest Bingham. The area is located on the western side of Fletcher Mountain. Once reaching the desired location, the elder Hinckleys hunted an old tote road for the first hour. Due to the lack of fresh deer sign, they stopped to ponder their next move.

While talking it over, a jeep approached. The driver was the foreman of a local logging operation who offered to take them to the end of a remote, almost undriveable road where he had seen lots of fresh sign two days prior. At the end of this two track, the Hinkleys made their way up through a winter beech valley encompassed on both sides by rising mountainous terrain. By 9 a.m. they had each taken a stand a few yards apart, in what appeared to be a great spot.

They didn't have to wait long before the action started. Twenty minutes after taking his position, Horace heard a twig snap, spotted a buck and fired. Fortunately for him, he completely missed. Within five minutes his wife's rifle echoed, only to be followed by her excited voice yelling for Horace to come see her nice buck. For unexplainable reasons even to Horace, he never moved or made a sound. Something within (a gut feeling most successful hunters have learned to trust) told him there was more action to come. No sooner had that thought passed when the buck of any hunter's dream was sneaking directly towards Horace. It only required one shot from his .30-06 to put this monster down for the count.

As astounding a morning as it was, there would be much more excitement to come before darkness fell on this day. Quickly realizing the two deer lying before them were more than they could handle, the couple started back to retrieve help. Not finding his son at the vehicle, they drove to his brother Ralph's house a short distance away.

Approaching the kill site with Ralph to help in the dragging chores, a six pointer was jumped and taken by Horace's brother with one quick shot. Instead of easing the burden, Ralph only added to it with the third Hinckley buck. Once the two men had finished getting the six pointer and Olive's big buck out, they jubilantly spotted Philip making his way toward them.

By now, the events thus far would have been more excitement than any hunting family could have expected in several lifetimes, but there was more good news. Philip's wife had shot a spikehorn, and during the dragging process to get her buck out, a big 200-pound plus ten pointer materialized. Philip made the shot count, and thus gave the Hinckley family five bucks in the space of one hunting morning. The story should end here once Horace's mammoth buck was laboriously hauled out, but it doesn't.

It was three days before a scale large enough to handle a buck of this proportion could be found. Once this great buck was hoisted up in front of several witnesses, including state sealer of weights, Forrest Brown, the giant deer pulled the scales to a whopping 355 pounds. It was calculated that Hinckley's buck had an approximate live weight of 488 pounds. Several measurements were then taken which included: neck girth - 28 inches, body girth behind forelegs - 47 inches, greatest girth - 56 inches, and a total length from antler tip to rear hoof of 9 1/2 feet.

Because of the constant influx of inquisitive viewers, Horace was unable to butcher his buck. To add to his dilemma, the sheer weight of his buck after six days of hanging collapsed the barn roof. When the animal finally reached the freezer plant the next day, it weighed almost 100 pounds less. A cloud of doubt now hung because of the unsuspecting discrepancy to the original weight. Due to the length of hanging time and the amount of trimming Horace had to perform since shooting his now famous deer, it was determined that shrinkage could easily have diminished the weight of the buck.

Unfortunately, and not without much difficulty, it took Horace over a year to have his buck validated as the heaviest ever recorded in the state. To you who think a buck of Hinckley's status is a thing of the past, and a record that may never be broken, I need only to remind you of Mark Maguire and his 70 homeruns. I, for one, know that a buck of that caliber not only exists, but I am also in hopes of dethroning the reigning king with the taking of him."

I remember seeing a picture in a magazine, maybe OL/F&S/SA, of a man with a Winchester 71 next to a huge whitetail buck with a caption that identified the hunter as being Mr. Hinckley and the deer as weighing 355 lbs. dressed and an estimated 488 lbs. live weight.

JEff

Jeff it was an Outdoor Life article....seen it many times.

And you are correct....he did not use a 30/06. It was an older Winchester lever action (not a M95)chambered for one of the older cartridges but can't recall the chambering.

The buck was killed in the Skowhegan vicinity.

From Outdoor Life's Deer Hunting Book, Maine Biggest Buck by Horace R. Hinkley.

"My rifle was one that very few of today's hunters have heard of, a Winchester Model 1886 in .33 caliber. In Maine we used to call it a moose gun because of its knockdown power." He indicates that the rear sight was a Lyman peep with the small center ring removed.

He also says that he had to replace in later years with a Remington 742 in 30-06 when the barrel "played out."

cool! i stand corrected. my apologies jocko

JDK there ya go....thanks, that's the rifle.

I knew it was older medium bore lever...

I loved the deer hunting stories from that era......that is such a great article.The stuff is so free of so much of the technology that we have today.Hard to beat those old Maine woodcutters in the deer woods,too, and how they explained things.....I hunted a few days back in the 70's with an oldtimer named "Don"....had a cabin back on the Harvey Siding Rd.....he was a great old guy and a really excellent woodsman. Suspect Hinckley was cut from the same bolt of cloth....

Biggest buck I ever shot was 208 pounds hanging weight and I killed him with a Ruger .44 mag carbine (the original version) but he was only 200 yards. Maybe if it had been a long shot I would have been better served with a super blaster.

200 yds!! did you have the front sight on the tree line?! lol

My pal holds up the head of the largest bodied mule deer buck I've ever seen. We took him out in pieces, so I have to only guess what he weighed....350lbs on the hoof? Taken with one shot from the pine scattered ridge in the background from 340 meters with a .260 and 139gr scenar.

looks like a Brahma bull with horns

I thought North American whitetail magazine had a article of a buck from canada that was more than 500 pounds live weight. The article showed a pic of the deer and it like a steer laying in the field. If I remember right it only had a big six point rack but the mass was unbelievable.

While I was trying to find the article I cam across this:

In 1926, Carl J. Lenander, Jr. took a Whitetailed buck near Tofte, MN, that was estimated at 511 pounds live weight.

Now that is a big deer if true.
Dink

Not the biggest deer I've kilt , but a nice one from last year. He had to be checked for CWD, as I was in a county where some had been found before. The biologist guesstimated him at about 240 live, 180 dressed.
I shot him on my uncle's farm, and we just used the tractor to put him in the bed of the truck. Nothing like farm equipment to make a hard job easier .
Missouri's farms can grow some fat-azz deer, especially if they aren't bothered too much. I've killed bigger bucks, with nicer racks, too, but this one seemed to have the boys at the meat locker pretty excited. They were shocked that I didn't want the rack, but I've got nicer racks, so it would have been in the way to keep it around.

Ya gotta listen to the old farmers, they KNOW where the deer are running. Uncle told me to "just go up on the hill behind the house, and watch, they're crossing there a lot". I did, and they did. Bang, end of story. .270 Winchester, of course.

Guesses as to weight on this one? Or score?



I took this pic about 5 years ago I think, or there abouts.


(And yeah, I know the answers.......grin)

I'll take a stab.

350# in the round, or 275 gutted. I haven't a clue on the points.

I got within about 40 yards of this huge bodied buck last Dec during the rut. His doe was just out of the picture, and is the only reason, along with some wind, that I got this close. Mature bucks in this sandhill country will typically weigh over 300lbs. live, 26" neck girth just under the ears, and 50-52" girth behind the front shoulders.