The young son of a friend of mine has shot two deer this year with a .223. Neither has been recovered and neither left a blood trail. Today's deer was shot with snow on the ground and still no blood visible. He is using a 55gr. pointed soft point. Shots have been about 60 yards and the deer appeared to be well hit. What is up with this?

What kind of bullet construction are the soft points? If they are of varmint construction, they won't do an adequate job on deer.

How many tags does the kid have? 2?

Tom

I am not sure on the bullet construction, just that they are soft points. In N.C. we can take several does. I suggested they borrow my 30.30 if they continue to hunt and see it that helps.
The kid has shot my 30.30 several times and he shoots it fairly well.

Not when you gut shoot em. A 55gr soft point will put a deer down within 100yds 9 out of 10 times when shot in the vitals.

I honestly don't know as I've never had one go more than a few steps, but I'm all about busting shoulders and using a good bullet.

My experience with the 223 is I have only had to track one, once and there was a very minor blood trail-what I mean is a drop or two several feet apart. Otherwise they drop right there or go with in 10 ft of being hit. Just my experience

Dave

I am afraid that he is shooting too far back. I guess we better look into that further. The soft point was the only factory bullet not made for varmints that they could find.

I've shot 2 mule deer and 2 or 3 pronghorns with a 22-250 and factory 55 gr Win soft points. Lung shots mostly, they run 50 yards and tip over.

You guys need to change something if that is the case.

Thats been my experience as well...50 yds. max.....

Ingwe

About the same result as lung shooting one with a 300 mag....(grin)

Yup!

Ingwe

How do you know he hit the deer?

If 55 grain generic SP's are all that you have see if you can instruct the young hunter to shoot at the neck, if he can hit a 3 inch circle at 60 yards with his rifle a neck shot should be OK for him.

My son has shot two deer with an AR and 75 gr. TAP and two with a 788 .22/250 with 55 gr. Rem Express SPs. Note: he burns close to 1,100 rounds of .22 ammo each summer to ensure his shooting is up to par.

The .223 deer (both at about 100 yards) were straight down from a shoulder shot (on purpose) and stagger 10 yards with a heart shot with a followup shoulder shot to drop.

The .22/250s kills went straight down (#1) and stumble flop 10 yards downhill. Both were hit with frontal chest shots either side of 200 yards.

His adult second cousin burned the rib cage of a buck with his S&W AR a couple weeks ago, and didn't fire a followup shot when it took off. He is tore up and switching to a .308.

I mildly suggested that my brother urge him to practice shooting more from field positions.

Perhaps the youngster in question needs a good regimen of .22 rifle work to ensure he can plant a shot properly? And that practice should be away from a bench unless he's hunts from a stand that has a rest.

Till I read that I hadn't realized I was well into adulthood before I ever fired a round from a bench.

Remember how big a blood trail we got with the 62TSX? a blind man could follow, just not two retards..

Be sure about bullet construction......next time.

T-S-X = blood trail, busted bones and no doubt you hit the critter.

IMO 55 SP's belong in the lungs or tight behind the shoulder or in the head. Too many limits for them.

Stack your odds with a pill that doesn't care next time.

Of course one can make the 30/30 inept with bullets and powder too.

I shot two does with a 55g Winchester, DRT; each shot was about 80-100 yards, and lung shots...very surprised that they dropped.

Would help if the original poster could actually identify the specific bullet brand and model number of the bullet.....there are a number of .224 , 55 gr. "softpoints" on the market.

I forgot about that one. Blood pools the size of a dinner platter are tough to spot for the trained eye.

People would go into vapor lock if they knew that whole story.

That's no chit! i love that rifle!

Man the crap we've done together and actually lived to talk about! grins

Badger!

[bleep] Mike and the flashers on the truck.

The [bleep] boat ride and having it start right up back at the station!

Hey, there's the bear, you want to check the crab pots?

If shot through the lungs at under 100 yards with a 55 grain varmint bullet or a 64 grain PowerPoint, the whitetail does that I've shot with the 223 haven't gone more than 25+/- yards and most have fallen over within a few feet. The last deer that I shot with a 64 grain PP was in a snow covered corn field and you could see the spray of blood on the off-side snow where the bullet came out.

I'd check the zero on the rifle and then make sure the the hunter knows where to put the bullet. Regardless of the caliber rifle used, it really comes down to putting a properly constructed bullet into a vital organ or the CNS. There just isn't as much margin for error with the sub-6.5s, so bullet construction and placement become a little more important.

Jeff

Sam,
Last year my son shot his first buck with his .223. 65 gr Sierra's and 25 g of Varget. Nailed him at 75 yards through the ribs just behind the shoulder. Deer went 30 yards and piled. Bullet was in the off side (in pieces) no exit. Base and jacket was about half bullet and the rest of it was in pieces. No exit. No blood but the deer was dead.
Shot a doe last week with my 6 Ackley @ 200 yards through the ribs behind the shoulder half way up. 85 TSX/3375. Penciled through. Exit hole was barely the size of a dime. No blood. Deer went 100 yards.

Dave

To answer the original question.......no, the .223 typically does NOT leave a very good blood trail. That's the main drawback to it's use in areas of thick brush such as East Texas where a deer can run less than 50 yards and be lost easily.

While the .223 is very deadly......as others have said, a run of less than 100 yards is typical with a well placed bullet.....the tiny slugs don't always exit and when they do leave a very small wound to let blood out. There are of course exceptions where blood trails are very good.....but not typical. This same "failing" exists to a lesser extent with the .243 and .257 rounds.

That's the reason many prefer a bigger rifle for thick areas.....not because the lesser rounds won't kill.....but because a good blood trail can be critical when the animal gets out of sight. A big bore bullet that exits....every time....insures an easier tracking job when the deer runs (and they WILL run sometimes no matter how well placed the shot is.

On average, I agree with that statement as I still prefer the 7mm and 30cal rounds when a good blood trail is necessary. In spite of that, I've been having decent luck with .224, 6mm, 257, and 6.5mm bullets lately. The only times I haven't had decent blood has been on angling shots that absorbed softer bullets and did not get an exit. I'm now likely to run a stouter bullet in those particular chamberings.

Same happens with our .222. Deer is hit, runs, little or no blood trail. Deer dies within 50 yards. If not on the spot when bone is hit.

My .223 is deadly on hogs!

stumpy

it could be some more experience with the rifle is needed. Young fellow on our club this year burned one with a 30-30 at 20 yards, his uncle then made him shoot it at a paper plate a few times before he was allowed to go hunt again.

The two deer that have been killed with FIL's .223 both have died in short order. The first (8 pt), took two hops- turned around and fell down. He had ribbons of blood out of both sides that extended about 5-10 inches the length of his run. The second (doe), ran about 15-20 yards and fell over. Again, copious amounts of blood on both sides of the deer.

Both deer were shot low in the chest (heart on both), and lost a significant amount of blood prior to falling over.

.223 with 40g GS Custom HVs at 3800fps.

What portion of the body is one aiming at? I've found many adult hunters that could not tell me where they expect to find the hit. If shot low (heart/lung) then yes I'd expect some blood. If high in the lungs, then no, as there is lots of space inside the animal where blood can settle.

Personally, I'd not outfit a youngster with a 22 caliber deer rifle until he was extremely proficient with it from field positions.

Red Spiker 150 yards, .223 Rem 65 gn Sierra Game King. Dead within 10 yards. (Mind you, the boy can shoot). Placement was straight up the front leg, about a third of the way up the body. We have some 70 grain Speers to try out next.


Exit hole:

I don't know about the 223 specifically - but 53 grain .22 caliber TSX's out of my 22 CHeetah, have never failed to leave great blood-trails on deer - at least that is, for the deer that didn't drop in their tracks. None of about two dozen deer shot with that rifle, has ever made it more than about 50 yards - the other half, or so, dropped in their tracks.

Keith and Dave, it's amazing what a little bullet like a (fast)55 grain soft point is capable of doing.
Of course shot placement is key, too far back and things are not going to work out very well at all.

Take the kid out and shoot with him in field conditions and see how he shoots. Give him a critical lesson on anatomy while at it. Pick up a magazine and ask him where he would shoot the various deer in the magazine. Make this very clear to him. Kids always seem to shoot at the center of an animal, even though their mind is saying 'shoulder'. I worked with a guy I absolutely hated a couple of years ago. Every year he bragged about how many deer he shot with his .22-250, because he was such a good shot. In the three years I worked with him, he said he had shot over 20 deer. He had recovered NONE to my knowledge. Of course he blamed the caliber, not his shooting or the poor choice of bullets he was using. I am sure he never followed up on a hit animal either. If they didn't drop at the shot, "They would be okay, since it is such a small bullet." I had to seriously restrain myself when near him. Use good bullets and the .22's are he hammer of Thor. Use crappy bullets and shoot poorly and it doesn't matter what you shoot them with. Flinch

Flinch,

That is such a sad story. If I knew someone like that - I think I would have taunted him, until he committed an aggressive action - so that I could - legally - lay a beating on such a man. If not, I might find where he parked, while hunting - and flatten all four of his tires - and then leave a note - explaining why.

I too, often pick up a .22 to shoot deer with. My CHeetah Mark IV is just deadly - shooting Moly-coated 53 grain TSX's out of the long barrel at 4285 fps - but, then again, I would never take a bad shot.

This rifle and bullet combo will be the first rifle used on deer - for each of my three young daughters. It will be just fine - but I will teach them that a hunter has to know when to hold up - and when to shoot.

If I ever "had to" (now there is a contradiction in terms - at least - for a deer hunter!) take a less than optimum shot (perhaps a one-in-a-lifetime Boone & Crocket animal that was - far off - at a bad angle) I - MIGHT - want a different rifle.

But - other than pipe dreams - in REALITY - in the hands of a calm decent shot - a fast moving .22 - shooting premium bullets - should never let you down - on an animal built like a deer.

I think the .22's can make fine deer rifles for reasonable ranges where velocity is still decent. My eldest daughter and I took my 223AI to the woods this evening in search of a few does for the freezer. The 62TSX performed well on a neck shot, which isn't really saying much, but it also did well on a broadside lung shot. This was right at dark, almost too dark, but she was only 35yds out or so. The entrance was a clean .22cal hole and the exit was nickel-sized with a pretty good blood trail for the 30yd death run. No bloodshot on the shoulders and no bones hit other than ribs.

The girl will likely start off with a 223 of her own in 3-4 years, shooting good bullets.

Very cool, she's a cutie.

Where do you hunt in Canada with a .223??

http://www.whitetailadventures.com/territories/canadahunts/infopage/#firearmsleg

Check on Big Game Prohibitions.
Caliber must not be less than .23 ---1st line
I guess I could make a lot of money reporting you BCBrian.LOL

Quoting regulations off a outfitter's website? What do the actual regs in B.C. say about it?

All my kids and grandkids shot there first several deer with a 222 Rem. still have it btw, as did most of my cousins and brother..

We only shot the Hornady 60 gr. HP or SP..it worked and we never lost a deer..We never shot over 100 yards but twice and that was a fluke on the kids part in that they saw and shot a different buck than the one I pointed to them! My grandson killed a nice doe at 200 plus yards with one shot and my son shot a nice 4 point at 200 or so yards when there was a 34 inch Mule deer looking right at him at 40 yards! I fainted on that one.:)

The answer to your question is most bullets will not leave a blood trail and you should only use those light caliber in more open country where you can watch them run and at least get a direction..most will fall at the shot however. Keep your shots under 100 yards and carefully place your bullets..With a kid its up to the adult to coach them carefully on bullet placement, stay away from varmint type bullets, use the 60 gr. Hornady is my advise, but there may be others.

Used properly it works, used poorly it wounds. Your friend may be better off with a 22-250 or a 6x45??? or even a nice little 25-35 Win. its deadly at 100 yards.

Might want to check your facts from the actual government site before you make allegations of impropriety....In BC the only restriction on deer is no rimfires.

Used my 223AI on deer this fall myself, after reading enough from Steelhead and Stick and Paul, etc,.....Want to report me too? Hell, the CO I ran into this fall uses a Hornet occasionally for giggles......

Yeah BC was always the odd ball of the rest of Canada. LOL

I was hoping that BCBrian would post the reg and he must have had as much luck finding it as I did. Can you post the reg if you find it for our American hunter friends. Thanks

In BC ANY center-fire is legal for all big game - with one exception.

For Bison - and Bison only (223's are still LEGAL for moose and grizzlies) the bullet must weigh 175 grains or more - and the energy generated must equal a certain Kilojoule value - about equal to a 7mm Remington Magnum - or more. That's because a few hunters have got "stomped" using lesser cartridges.

I haven't hunted BC all my life - without arrest - by simply doing what I want to - and guessing about the regs.

I love folks using an outfitters link as a basis for determining legalities.

Had an idiot just the other day call me a poacher for shooting a Grouse in May, regardless of the fact that Grouse is open in May in Alaska.

Too many folks talking about what they don't know.

Oh, I also find the reg in about 2 minutes of google time. Just go to BC fish and game site (not fish and game but whatever it's called in BC).

wilkeshunter,

Since I my experience matches you friend in numbers of deer shot at, I will chime in after reading only the first page. The first was a doe at 222 yards (Leica 1200). I was about 100 to 150 feet above on an oposite ridge. Sixty grain Nolser Solid Base lead tip entered above the sturnum and esited at the diaphrame. DDRT.

The next one was a buck 15" back to belly. Hanging weight with no skin, guts or legs below the hocks 99 pounds. Range was about forty-five yards troting. Shot once and jacked another shell in. Fired again. Dropped at the second shot. I thought I missed once since there was only one entrance hole about 1" diameter. While skinning it, we saw where one bullet exited behind the off side shoulder and the other exited in front of the shoulder. Maybe the second shot was not necessary.

Sure seems to me your friend is missing or hitting behind the diaphram.

I'm guessing by that, you still think you are right and Brian is incorrect.

Page 16.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlif.../Hunting-TrappingSynopsis_0910_Part1.pdf

Actually they do have baby seal safaris in Newfoundland and it's legal to bash their brains in there but if you did it on the other Coast you'd probably end up in jail for 10 years. Every province has different rules and to know them all , is impossible about as possible as for you to know what's legal in Hawaii or in New York. Try shooting something in the other provinces with the .223 and you will never hunt again. So posting the reg is the best since as BC Brian said there are restrictions even with the .223. So go buy your hamburger at Burger king since they make them there but don't muddy the water's with stupid quotes about Dolphin fishing and take it easy, smoke another joint and have a beer.

Even where the cartridge is legal, I don't think it's the best choice for an inexperienced hunter of any age. YMMV.

CLB

And my sig line has what to do with this thread exactly? And I am well aware where it is legal. I actually know some seal hunters....BUT, to point it out, my sig line is sarcastic wit, as apparently you missed that point.



Which is why I would actually look it up myself on the applicable governing body website, not pluck mis-information off of a hunting website.....Try it sometime.


In that province perhaps....But thats kind of a moot point isn't it, as I've never said that I'm venturing to Alberta to hunt with my 223AI....Again, relevance to this thread?



No, what Brian actually said, is that there are restrictions with Bison....Not the 223.



A couple of things wrong here....1) I don't eat at Burger King. 2) a sig line is exactly that, a signature line...You'll notice that quite a few of us have them at the end of our posts.... 3) I don't smoke dope, and I rarely drink beer. I'm guessing that perhaps you should try that one yourself.

AND 4) How is any of this relevant? You jumped on Brian because you thought he was wrong, did a 0.3 second search to back yourself up, and fell on your face. Let it go. You are just digging yourself deeper, and the first step when you find yourself in a hole, is to stop digging.

I didn't read through all this, but from penetration issues, a 55 softpoint is a suggested house round in the 223, meaning it doesn't penetrate that far.

First you have to hit em right... but then you have to have a capable bullet. Capable could be a varmint HP that catches only ribs, no exit and ain't going far but doesn't leave room for error. Better choice would be a tougher bullet IMHO. I know there are others out there that are factory adn better choice, WW 223 in 64 soft points come to mind but you might have to order them.

Hit correctly the deer wont' go far period.

As to the suggestion of neck shooting, the neck IMHO is by far the WORST target, it has lots of non vital areas in it and you have to be more precise in that shot than even with a head shot. I've lined out vitals on the neck and the head and posted em here before... I know I'll never shoot for the neck unless its the only target... and I'll know I have to be perfect, bascially you need to be able to hit a golfball size target... of course the spine is there, but I"ve seen the neck stop bullets before with out penetration, even from a 300 mag.... and especially 63s in 223, though the deer were paralized the bones were never 100% penetrated. YOu have the 2 pipes, vein and artery, but in there is a windpipe and esophagus too.. slow deaths if thats all you hit.... and then there is meat above and below that is just flesh wound.
IMHO teach the kid to line up with the front leg and dump one in about 1/3 of the way up, and if any angle to the shot, shoot for the offside shoulder, but let it get through ribs on entry, not bone.
IF you pick a better bullet like a tsx or such, then break all the bones you want....

Rost, can you point me in the direction of the thread where you outlined the vitals, head & neck ? Got a buddy I want to show it to !

Paul.

We use a NEF Handi rifle in 223 for our youth hunts.
The kids can shoot it well and it has very little recoil.
Handloads with 60grn NP or 60grn V-max. Very seldom get exits.
Bullet placement is the key as always. Double lung= no blood trail; Low behind the shoulder=good blood trail.
We try to keep all shots inside 100yds and broadside only.
Coach

This is a good example why so many states including mine do not allow 22 cal rifles in the deer woods...Sorry about your bad experience though it's always tough to loose a deer.....................547.

Why is that?

my mileage varies.....of course this was only a Hornet:

I have a couple cases I know of where a .22-caliber centerfire didn't leave the shooter satisfied.

1. I was talking to a guy on a hunt three or four years ago that shot a javelina (top out at about half the weight of a small whitetail) with a .22-250 or .223 (I think it was a .22-250), hit it a little far back (easy to do on a javelina because their lungs are farther forward in the chest than a deer's are), and was very disappointed in the performance. As I recall, he didn't get much of a blood trail at all. I've hit javelina with the same kind of shot placement, and they've been DRT with plenty of blood to track even if they had run.

2. I shared a camp a couple years ago with an experienced hunter who shot a small whitetail with a .22-250. As I recall, he was using an appropriate bullet but shot a little too far back (but not "gut" shot), and it took he and his buddy, another very experienced hunter, over two hours to find the deer because it didn't bleed much.

Obviously both those cases involved less than ideal shot placement, but those experienced hunters both firmly believed that they would have had a much easier tracking job with a larger caliber bullet.

That brings up another point - how much diligence are your friend and his son applying to looking for the deer? Just because there is no blood trail doesn't mean the deer can't be found. I know it is a pain in the rear to do a search for a 200 yard radius around where a deer is shot without blood or anything else to guide the trackers, but it could be a good lesson for the kid on following through all the way once the trigger is pulled. If the kid put the bullet through the lungs, which he could have done without having a blood trail with a .224" bullet, I would expect that the deer would be less than 100 yards away from where it was shot.

Legal here in Manitoba.

For somebody playing internet C.O. you don't seem to know WTF you're talking about do you!

LMFAO at your verbal diarrhea!

I like that!

Request permission to plagiarize...


Ingwe

Had one not exit this weekend. Corelokt at about 70 yards. Small doe. Entered behind left shoulder, stopped at right shoulder. Dead within 15 yards.
Another neck shot doe left a big exit wound. DRT.

Prefer exits. But I love the round for does and coyotes. Camo'ed Stevens and camo'ed Nikon 2x7. Nice light package.

stumpy

I'm not a fan of the bullet for dear hunting. They dont seem to leave an exit wound. Almost like it doesnt have the weight to carry through the deer. I know a few guys that head or neck shoot with .223's and they drop in there tracks.

.243 is my smallest I will use.

I've seen a few hunters using 243 also on moose. I forced him to track a wounded moose for 3 days. Next year he came back hunting with us and he had a 300 mag. Live n learn is all I have to say about this.