OK Guys, give me your opinion on a deer rifle for western blacktail, muleys, hogs, black bear for my 16 year old. He already has been shooting my dad's 243 for several years, and I havent been pressing him to a larger caliber because he seems to love shooting the 243. But, I now want to buy him his deer rifle (although the 243 is now his also). I want a deer rifle that has the capability to reach out under western open range hunting conditions, yet wont exactly lead the pack for recoil.
Calibers I am considering for him are: 270 win, 270 WSM, 280 Rem, 30-06, 7mm-08. I would also consider the 25-06, but I am thinking I want more of a step up from his 243. Now I want your opinions. The 260 is interesting but doesnt have enough horsepower for my tastes in the west. The 6.5 Rem Mag has limits on powder with the heavier bullets. I'm currently leaning real hard on 270 Win, 270 WSM, and 280 Rem. One last thing, he will be reloading, I'm going to start teaching him this year.
I think that any of the cartridges you mentioned would be good for him, especially since he is already learned proper technique since he is already shooting the .243. I started out with a 30/30 at age 12 and when I turned 14 my dad got me a 7mm Rem Mag. At the same time he introduced me to reloading so I started out on the lighter side of the 7mm Mag and worked up. It was quite an easy adjustment. The .270 or 30-06 may just be the ticket since there are so many bullets available and light loads are a cinch to start with until he can handle full loads, it may be more cost efficient as well allowing him to shoot more thus gaining confidence along the way. You certainly are thinking in the right direction!
My vote goes to the 7/08. Shoot 120-160 gr bullets for deer and elk out to 350 yds. The .270 is a great caliber and have killed several deer and one elk. I personally don't care for the '06. I think it kicks way too hard for how it performs. It is hard to beat the .243 if he shoots it well, might want to stick with it and teach bullet placement.
in my opinion i would go with the 7/08 of the ones mentioned although any of them would do.my pick would be one that you didnt mention,the 308.it is wonderfully accurate and is easy to load for.
Half moon said what I was going to say, so no use in repeating it. He will also have a lifetime, good for the course gun in a .30-06. Common choices but there is a reason why.
You did right starting him on the .234 Win. But I see it as a very good deer caliber. What exactly is it that you want that the 243 won't do? Big mule deer, black bears, elk?
If that's your ticket I'd recommend the 270 Win. 257 Weatherby, or 7mm Rem. Mag. In my experience those three represent a step up in recoil above the .243 and a huge step up in game killing. They will do just about anything at reasonable ranges. The larger calibers and bigger cartridges offer lots more recoil with little more effect on game.
Since you will be handloading, anyway, the 7x57mm has a lot to offer, with very moderate recoil and muzzle blast. Slightly betters the ballistics of the 7-08, while operating at lower pressures. It is a classic, and for good reason, though you would forfeit the short action.
Praire Dog, I just want to buy him his own deer rifle, not to press him, but I have the funds available.
I think the perfect calibers for deer are 25-06 or 257 Weatherby. He will have no problem killing deer with either as far as he can hit em'. They shoot flat as a lazzer and the recoil is still what I consider on the mild side. I prefer 100 gr. bullets in 25. caliber.
If reloading is something he enjoys consider the 25-284 wildcat or the 25-06 AI.
I know you said the .25 wasn't much of a step up in caliber. True, but we are not talking about a 257 Roberts. The cartridges I mention are a huge step up in performance over the .243 and very enjoyable to shoot.
7mm-08, 270win/280rem
270WSM, 7x57
or maybe even a 260 rem or 6.5x55
or the odd ball 6.5 rem mag
odd ball 284 win
any will do but is going up to 6.5 enough a change from the 243
I'm leaning real hard in the direction of 270 WSM, 280 Rem, or 7mm-08, or the 25-06
Either one of those three will take anything on this continent when properly loaded. The 280 has the advantage on the 270 when you load the 175 gr bullet , if you're a heavy bullet type.
The 7-08 preforms well in the shorter barrels, but with the 24-26 in barrels the 270 and 280 reach full potential.
Maybe be best to let your kid go thru the ballistics tables and pick one. Just a sidenote the first elk I killed was with a 250 savage, the next dozen went down to a 243, before I decided I was to grown up for such a pipsqueek gun. Still have alot of confidence in the 243 and use it quite abit.
I use a 7mm08 in a model seven and love it. That said, I have worn out a Lyman 47th edition reloading handbook and have come to the conclusion that you can not beat the 30-06. If you can use a long action, that is where I would go. If you want the short action, the 308 will do the trick. Take a good look at them and then pick what you want. If you follow your mind and not your heart, you will most likely be unhappy with what ever you pick. miles
I think that you left out the best choice of all "308 win".
-With the 308 you can get ex-military rounds for at the range cheap and then reload them.
-It is a calibre that ammo is easy to find no matter where this 16year old ends up in his adult life.
-It has killing power to spare for deer and bear and when he marries that nice girl who's father owns the Moose & Elk hunting camp he will still be able to play the game with his 308 win! (think positive) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
-also keep in mind that the 308 is a short action with very managable recoil for the beginners in the sport of shooting.
-I have my 14 year old son shooting a Browning BLR in a 308 and he has done so since he received this rifle for his 12th birthday. He started with open sights and now he is learning to use it with a scope mounted on it (3-9x40).
-308win short action
-Available in most gun models
-Easy to find ammo
-lots of load options
-cheap on powder (unlike the magnums or even the 30-06)
My son hunts with his 308 BLR and.....Well, I am hunting for that nice girl that I spoke about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The only reason I left the 308 out is my father in law cusses it religously because his dad had a Winchester Model 88 in 308 and my father in law blamed his misses on the caliber, when in reality, his dad at the time was well up in the years, and I suspect old eyes were to blame. The 308 will do anything the 30-06 will do with 150 grain bullets or less. With him mainly hunting mule deer and down, that would make for a good combo, as would the 7mm-08, or 280 Rem. A 6.5-284 would also be sweet if I could find a factory rifle chambered in it. I dont want to have to build a rifle for him.
Aggiedog:
Here is an article for your father-in-law to read.
Tell him to pay close attention to the make and model as well as the calibre of rifle used!
World Record Whitetail
Excellent story, I even sent the link to my father-in-law.
Be interesting how he responds. Thanks.
i was shoting a 270 at 14 then at 16 i had a 7stw for two months then i traded it in for a 7mm rem. id say let him pick what one he wants.
A lot of people prefer at least a 30 caliber bullet for black bear to have better odds of a blood trail (making the .308 Win an ideal cartridge for some people). I've never bagged a bear, so I don't have personal experience to share there.
That being said, I think any of the cartridges mentioned at 27 caliber or above would do the trick for the species you mentioned. I would agree with the suggestion about letting your son make the decision (after you help him with the process of weighing the relative benefits of each option so he can make an informed decision).
It's good that you're reloading because I jumped from a .22 LR and a .410 shotgun to a .30/06 when I was about your son's age, and the factory loads brought on a flinch really quick. Every deer I've shot at has gone down with one shot except my first deer, but I've still got some remedial work to do on the flinch that shows up every once in a while. You started him out the right way with a .243, and any of the cartridges you've mentioned should have some good reduced loads to bridge the gap between .243 recoil and the full load recoil of his new cartridge.
My brother bought a 270wsm and I was very suprised @ the recoil with 130 gr factory loads,very light for the preformance(factory claims).I've shot deer with a 340 weatherby down to a 223,and got my first good buck (at 16 yrs old) with an old 444 marlin. It wasn't until I got a little older that I developed my own taste in deer rifles. Right now my go to is a springfield action 7x57 ackley but I'm working up a load for a 260 I just got in a low wall browning.I honestly don't know what I would have picked to hunt with if my dad would have given me a choice of a new rifle.Good luck
Short action; either the 7-08 or .308, splitting hairs between the difference.
Long action .280 or 30-06, or maybe the 7mm RM but, that might be a bit much for a youth.
I hunt the lower end of the Sierra Nevada range with a 7-08 Micro Medallion with a Leupold 2-7, easy to carry and lightning fast to shoulder. My backup rifle to that is a Win 100 in .284, wishin' it were an 88 instead. I've always wanted a .280 Rem in a Rem 700 Mtn Rifle and I think it might be a better choice for bear and elk over the 7-08. However, you don't want to get him something that will induce a flinch so if you get him the later, .280 or 30-06, make sure he starts with light loads.
The 7x57 is also a good choice, but finding a factory chambered rifle these days is a bit difficult. The 70XTR Featherweight in this round is great, if you can find one.
My daughter will be using a .257R in a 77RL.
Good luck, I know it's a tough decision.
Bill
Aggiedog:
Here is an article for your father-in-law to read.
Tell him to pay close attention to the make and model as well as the calibre of rifle used!
World Record Whitetail Whitetale, so you are from Biggar, Saskatchewan then??
I think you could toss any of your final three in the air and grab one randomly. You could not make a poor choice. The thing that seems more important is what gun. I mean we all see that "one" we gotta have. Untill he finds that gun I would stick with the 243 and let him shop. When you find the right gun/caliber you will know by the way he picks it off the rack <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Aggiedog-how you been-hope life is good in your camp.
Lots of good thoughts here-I'd lean on going with a 06 based round (270/280/06). It doesn't mean much to me anymore-yeah I could micro manage a reason to go with this or that round but in reality it doeesn't really mean much. I feel that most of cartridge selection is a sentimental thing. That is to say that people use this or that round and they have confidence in this or that round so that is what they feel you should use.
You could do worse than going with a 308 based round as well-they make for a cute powerful package in a smaller action (for what it is worth the smaller action thing has never meant much to me either-just more micro management and another reason to build another rifle-not that there is anything wrong with that...grins). They will be close to the 06 based rounds in speed but they will not quite cut the bisquit at the drag races. There again that is a classic example of micro management IMO. Get used to your round and how it runs is the most important thing to me.
Personally I'd go 270 as my first choice but that just happens to be one of my fav's, not rocket science here.
For the most part I'd say find a rifle that you feel/he feels fits him like one of your fav's does and let her rip. To me the whole deal about which round I should use is overated-more importantly is the rifle and how it fits and feels to the user. IMO Get intimate with that rig and you'll do some amazing things I say.
Case in point one of my favorite rilfe I got in the late 80's-it is a magnum action 700-I've went thru (if my memory is good this early morn) 8 tubes. They have been in the range of 25 cals to 340's- for the most part I've noticed lil difference on killing power with the exception of elk (and that is a very small exception). I've found and this is no rocket science either but if I keep in tune with the rifle-which I tend to do so as I shoot it quite a bit. I feel if I can get a good rest and an accurate range I can kill it from prairie dogs to elk from close to very far.
Moral is I know the gun-and I feel that is way more important than the cal.....
Just my thoughts
"GET TO THE HILL"
Dogz
ps aggie--you could also go 6/06..grins
Bart185, I'm glad that you mentioned "factory claims". A couple of years ago we were getting ready for deer season and a couple of my neighbors came over to shoot. I had my crony out, so we all shot through it. Two different 270's with 130 gr factory ammo shot about 200 fps slower than a 308 with 150 gr factory ammo. The 308 was a Rem 700 and one 270 was
a Winchester model 70 and the other was a Rem auto. It sure struck me as strange. None of the guns were mine so I don't know anything much about the ammo but they were out of different box's. Another thing that we noticed that day was that an empty hull from an auto is really hot but the ones from bolts were not that bad. miles
hey ag,
i guess that if i'd spent more time hunting with my dad i'd be solely a bolt action shooter... me and him didn't get along though. i did hunt big game occasionally when i was visiting or travelling with an uncle... he usually handed me a savage 99 in .300 and a handfull of mixed cartridges...
it was with this rifle that i took my first muley, and my only elk... i'd love to tell you what load i was using, which bullet, and how fast, but i never really knew.....
i do know that i have craved a rifle of this configuration for decades... and thanks to an aquaintance made here on the board it is finally within reach... i know which rifle my son will start with..... johnw
We all know that you really can't go wrong with any of your choices. The .270 WSM is probably last on my list as it is new and may have feeding issues, possibly difficulty is getting factory ammo in the future if the need were to arise. The 25-06 lacks the power power to be an all around cartridge, the 7mm-08 doesn't really tickle my fancy as a good all around, this leaves the .280 and the 30-06. These are the best choices, both are well established lots of loads and load data, diversity of bullets and weights, plenty of knock-down, factory loads available most places(in case of need), offered in most factory rifles...Just my 2 cents
When it came time to outfit my 14 year old (5', 135 lbs) it took me almost 5 seconds of soul searching to conclude that a 7x57 was what I wanted.
We needed to shoot a spitzer bullet out to 200 yards, low recoil and weight that allowed carrying between 3 to 5 miles.
We found a pristine Ruger M-77 used for $Cad400 (that's about $275 real dollars) because the former owner needed more punch.
I worked up a reduced load of H4350 and a 140 Nosler Partition to 2500 fps (chronographed at near freezing temperatures) and it has worked fine in the mixed forest environment where we hunt.
That load is sighted in at 2" high at 100 and is a couple low at 200. If we need it flatter when she is used to the recoil it'll be easy to crank it up to 2800. We have moose in the area and with a 160 Partiton or Failsafe, it'll handle moose too. Some of you might argue that that chambering is too small for moose but it's taken bigger animals in it's history. We hunt for trophies to put on the table. If the broadside presentation isn't there, we'll wait, thank you very much.
The only modifications I made were to have the trigger professionally adjusted to 4 lbs, the barrel shortened to 20-1/2 inches to balance the weight taken off the butt and the length of pull set to 12-1/2 inches with a Pachmayer Decelerator recoil pad. The trigger breaks crisply and at 2500 it recoils like an angel's kiss.
Having said all of that, when I hit the big 50, I had a 338-06 made up for my first elk hunt. We don't have many opportunities in our limited entry areas. Could I do as well with my 7x57 or my 30/06? I'm sure if it but then it wouldn't be any fun.
By the way, her first deer was a dry doe grazing in a field at 165 yards broadside. She took out both lungs from a seated position using cross sticks. The deer went less than 10 yards and weighed about 100 pounds on the hook when we got it home (field dressed but with hide and legs still on -- figure about 140 live weight)
[/quote]the 7mm-08 doesn't really tickle my fancy as a good all around[/quote]
could you tell me why? I don't have one, but am interested in your comment...
thanks!
dave
I"d say the 7-08 or the .270 bot are really fine rounds....but my all time fav is the .308 win can kick a good round like that out of the standing... or since your going to the 30-06 side also i'd say the 25-06 or 30-06 both are good longer range rounds
Miles,the reason that the auto's brass was hot is caused by the friction of the round being ejected(really fast)from the chamber.You would be hot too if someone kicked you out of your sleeping bag at 2000fps
Well guys, thanks for all of your inputs. Today I purchased a rifle for my 16 year old kid. I found a new Model 700 Remington, BDL deluxe Ingraved, 270 Winchester caliber for a good price. The bolt is the normal 700 bolt before the funny locking mechanism came out. So I suspect it is 4-5 years old. It was the floor model, no scratches, or marks, and between the older bolt with no locking mechanism, and the nice ingraving on top of the receiver and the floorplate (has a Ram in the middle of the floor plate), I decided this was his rifle from me. If he doesnt like the stock, he can always put something different on at a later date. I shot a 270 win for years, and in the end, it came down to proven caliber, doesnt beat up your shoulder, good flat shooter for the west, and plentiful ammo available at most stores. Just seemed like the thing to do.
Then, after I did that today, I went by my gunsmith, and low and behold he had just taken posession of a Model 77 Ruger, Tang safety model, 25-06 with a 24 inch bull barrel. The rifle was in cherry condition, so I decided I needed it as my next toy. At least it keeps the reloading busy, and I figure either of my boys are welcome to shoot the 25-06 if I am not hunting with it. Ya just gotta love it. Now if I can just survive the 10 day waiting period here in CA!!!
In comparing the 7mm-08 to the .280 I think the .280 has more to offer therefore why consider the 7mm-08 other than simply to have one, which is a good enough reason for me but not if your only going to have one rifle.