Kind of the same question asked about the 150 grainer but just using a 170 grain FP bullet. Was thinking of using starting loads listed for 180 grainers and working from there. Anyone have a good load? would like to run them around 2500 fps.

My first reaction to this is that this might be a bad idea. You might be driving the bullet a bit faster than it was meant to go. However, if your bullet is up to it, this would make a really nice treestand load, where a close-in stopper is required, and distances of less than 100 yards are the norm.

However, I would suggest you look at the Hodgdon data for 30-06. They have a 30-06 load listed that has a starting load of 43.8 grains of H4895 for a 175 grain bullet. I think that would be a safe starting place. The velocity is 2584 FPS. I like H4895 for this sort of thing, because it provides consistent velocities when you are loading well south of the Max.

I tried Hornady 170 grain FP's a number years ago in 30-30 WIN. They proved a bit to strong for my liking on whitetails. However, cranking them to 2500+, it might be a plus in this case.

or you could just buy a dang .30-30 and a box of CoreLoks.

Not a 170 FP but-

180 Nosler with 43 grains of IMR 4064 gives 2415 fps according to JB's article in Feb 2000 Handloader. Article was on 300 Savage velocities with 30-06.

165 Speer RN with 44 gr IMR 4064 gives 2490 fps. From same article.

I'd wouldn't do it either. Most 170 gr. FP, .30-30 bullets are designed to function with a muzzle velocity of 2100-2200 fps. I'd much rather play with a 150 gr. standard cup and core bullet at 2500 fps. The old .300 Savage was always regarded as a great deer load with a C&C bullet in that velocity range. E

"According to Chuck Hawks, factory ballistics for the 170 gr., .30-30 load is a MV of 2,200 fps, and a ME of 1,827 ft. lbs."

You could run a standard round nose, 308/06 bullet at around 2500,, but your 30-30 bullet will probably not hold together. That's why I'm going with the 150gr, 30-30, just a tad over the factory velocity for that bullet, of 2365fps.

This is quite a good bullet Speer Hot Core Mag-Tip:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=666463

But best bet, call the bullet companies to see what range they recommend running their different bullets at.

Take care, Ken

I guess the next question here is WHY? I mean, you can probably pull this off. I've made a Mosin Nagant shoot like a 30-30 and a 300 Savage-- but that was for my son as a yute rifle. I've made a 308 WIN work like a 300 Savage, because the recoil was lighter and I was using it to take deer from my bow-oriented treestands.

'06 cases have a lot more volume. I've knocked 8% off a MAX H4895 load and gone hunting with a 165 grainer for years. It's a near-perfect deer load in my mind. However, it's a long way from 30-30 velocities.

Let's take a step back and look at your motivations for doing the project, and then maybe we can better advise you.

My answer to "WHY?" would be that in a number of cases/instances, the power of the '06 is not necessary and is actually "overkill". This versatile cartridge can be loaded to get the job done, without blowing up meat, or one's shoulder, or without traveling to the next county, after exiting the deer. There are plenty of places/terrain, where the 30-30 Youth Load, with a 125 grain FNHP would be most adequate for the harvest.

That was my original intent was just a short range deer load. In the past ten years my longest shot has been fifty yards. Even start loads for my 06' with 150's are quite a bit higher than the 30-30. However, I think there are some reduced loads listed for the 150 RN. I just happen to like the 170 FP loads in the 30-30 when I owned one. The 170 gr FP is an odd weight in all other 30 cals. and when developing a load it is normally a safe practice to use start loads of a heavier bullet for a lighter bullet if you don't have specific load data. Which is why I mentioned using start loads for a 180 grain as a start point for a 170. For instance 46 grains of IMR 4064 with launch a 180 gr Speer at 2583 fps. This is would get me close to my target velocity with no signs of pressure. Why I suggested around 2500 fps was because it is a velocity that was listed as max operating range from Speer. Just a little more info as to why I was going down this path

Hey Brinky,
180 grain Win PowerPoint, or maybe now, the Deep Curl, moving @ 2500-2550, is what I'll hunt elk with. It's way more than needed/desired to take deer with, though you'll get plenty of dispute with that last statement.
I loaded and shot some 150 30-30 bullets, loaded to 2400 fps this wknd,, but was rushed and the bbl was hot, after shooting elk loads, so didn't get much of a read. If ya want to PM me sometime in the future, I'll have more data (predicted, not measured velocities).
The 125 grain Sierra flat points were loaded to 2074 fps, according to Seafire. The youth load for this bullet is 2094 fps. With my 18.5" bbl, I may be getting a little less velocity, but at close range, it doesn't matter. I may load them slightly hotter, but they're a joy to shoot and very accurate!
Here's the Midway link to these bullets. They're hollow points, so will expand at lower velocities.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=491932

I've had people give me advice 'bout 125 grain bullets, but either they were running these bullets way too hot,, or they were talking about standard .308, 125 grainers.
With the 150 grain, you can get 2500 fps out of IMR 4198, but for the factory 30-30 load @ 2365fps, it uses a top load of SR/IMR4759. Again, that's the factory load for shooting deer way out there. If you're brush hunting/trail hunting, you could load that puppy way down and get good/great performance.

PostScript edit... You'll find plenty of people who kill deer in close, using an M1Carbine/Short 30-06, with a soft point 110 grain bullet. Many people will speak out loudly against this. The 125 grain is fine and so is the 150 grain. You can kill elk and moose with the 170 grainers at 50 yds.

PostPostScript edit:... If you really want to shoot 170gr, Google "30.06 reduced loads 180 grain" and you'll find tons of stuff. As it was stated earlier, you're looking at 2000-2200fps for that bullet,, not the 2500 fps listed for the .308 bullet. For short range, you'll have way over penetration and for "longer" ranges, you'll lose trajectory.

Good luck!.... Ken

At 50 yards, just about everything you throw at the deer is going to be lethal. Probably the 170 grain FP is going to be as well. However, if you did have a problem with bullet failure, you would be finding out about it at the wrong time. I would stick with the stuff that was built for '06 velocities, knock about 8% off the MAX and let it go at that.

I've done the bulk of my shooting under these conditions, and a good deal of it has been with 165 grain Hornady SP. I have yet to recover a single bullet. I had similar luck for years with a 180 grain Rem Corelokt. In my 308 Win I push the 165 grainer to about 2600fps. In the 30-06 it goes about 2700 fps at the muzzle.

I would agree with Kenner that 30-06 on a whitetail inside 50 yards is overkill, but overkill can be a good thing. At that distance, with a shot taking off the top of the heart and both lungs, there is very little variance in the outcome. The deer either goes down in its tracks or runs no more than 50 yards. The exit hole varies between .75" to 4" depending on what it encounters on the way through.

With those kinds of results with a tried-and-true bullet, I cannot endorse experimenting with a flat-point bullet that is built for much lower velocities. My suggestion is that if you want to experiment with a light-shooting '06 load for close-in work and you don't want to try my idea of taking 8% off a max 150 to 165 grain load, I'd go look at the youth loads on the Hodgdon site. They're all based around H4895 and use lower bullet weights in the 120-135 grain range.

Thanks Kenner. Keep me posted on your 150 grainers. The 170's seem harder to come by so I just may do the 150 RN. Also, if you could PM me any 125 grain youth loads you have. I'm looking at doing a lot more "practice" with my 06' in the way of carrying it more to do more things. This is part of my one gun project to improve my off hand accuracy with the rifle. The 125's sound perfect for my trap line. I don't keep the hides as it is mostly a pest control approach so a big hole isn't that big of a deal. And the light load probably isn't as loud as a 125 going 3g plus.

I did a little digging in an older Speer manual and did notice the load data for H4895. start loads look to be around 2400 + a smidge for a 150 grainer. I will heed your advice with respect to the 170 grianer as the 150's are probably a better bet preforming properly at a wider range of velocities. Thanks again for everyones advice. It's easier to ask those who have tried then try myself and fail with great frustration.

Judging from the number of visits, it looks as though you've sparked a lot of interest in this!

The 170 grain, flat-nose is a bullet that will take deer and elk/moose, but is more suited to the larger critters. The 150's in the 30-30 and in the 308/30-06 are best suited to opening up on deer, out to longer ranges, with lower velocities at those ranges. For close-in work, those 125 grain, 30-30 bullets at lower velocities,, or the 150gr 30-30 bullets at 2200-2350fps will work great. It depends on how much power you want going into the animal and beyond,, to where....??

When reading this, please understand!... There are a number of 30 cal. bullets: Some are made to open up a low velocities,, while others of the same caliber, open up and perform at much higher velocities,, and you must understand and choose the correct bullet for your application. Call the bullet maker and talk to them, personally. They're happy to help!

A 30-06 doesn't have to be a super-mag; it can perform like a 30-30, or softer, AND still deadly. I'm hoping that people reading these posts will reconsider the "need for speed" and think about what's appropriate for their situation.. i.e. size of game, distances, location....

Good shootin', All,, Ken

I agree totally! Downloading or buying reduced power loads for the 30-06 is a good idea.....more meat might hit the frying pan that way. However why lug a 30-06 around to shoot deer at 50 yards when you could be using an easy carrying, fast handling, all around sweet little carbine like the 336 or model 94? Lever guns are plain fun!

RJ,, Check out the Remington 7600 pumps! They're the length of a lever gun, with 18" bbls, 'bout the size of a .22 and the stock shaped similar to my Rem. shotgun,, so it really is point-n-click, with a Ghost Ring and post. Plus,, with this box magazine gun, one can shoot pointed bullets, too,, so this idea is really of "one gun" for a wide variety of game and distances.

And, I agree that lever guns are neat!

And those Remington pumps can be quite accurate.

SR 4759 is your answer

I've shot the 170 gr FP in a .300 WM as a reduced load.

40 gr. 4064 under a Sierra 165 BTHP, 2400 fps out of my 24" bbl .30/06 Mauser. Deer hit with that load didn't behave differently than ones hit by the same bullet starting out 400fps faster. Most accurate load I ever fired in every '06 I owned, too. If your shoulder is riddled with arthritis like mine is, you'll appreciate the mild recoil too.

In truth though, recent years have found me leaning toward the .30/30-class of cartridges and discovered that low and behold they STILL kill deer with aplomb. Toning down an '06 (or bigger .30s) to .30/30 levels for relatively short range deer hunting makes perfect sense to me. Save the full throttle stuff for instances where you are likely to need to "reach out."

Both Elmer Keith and P.O. Ackley spoke of loads and using loads with 170 grain FN in them.....

at higher velocities than 2500.. it is also the bullet factory loaded in the 307 Win which was load at 2550 fps or so..

so the bullet is more than capable...

Federal is also loading it in their reduced load to compete with Rem's Managed Recoil product line...

for this application I'd be reaching for 4198 or RL 7 or RL 10..

A cousin of mine used 170s in his '06, for one deer. He lost a LOT of meat, or so he said. The bullet came apart pretty abruptly, and he had a tracking job. He was probably running it too fast, but that's his story. I'm just relating it......

At least he found the deer, but he wasn't happy at all with the results. He went back to his "normal" .30/06 loads afterwards. He also experimented with 168 match bullets, and had similar results.

According to Hodgdon you can reduce the load to 60% of max for any bullet where H4895 is listed as appropriate. Their online manual lists 46.7gr H4895 with a 175 Sierra as max load. This would translate to a reduced starting load of about 28 gr of H4895. I think this would translate to about 1700-1800 fps. I bet about 30 to 32gr of H4895 with a 170 gr FP would be about right. See if you can get someone to chronograph your loads. Good idea to load down, effective and minimal recoil. Good luck with your loads.

Try IMR 4759, 30 grs. gives me 2265 fps in my sons rifle.
This should work just fine at close range in the woods IMO.
We will find out in a few months.
Did I mention the light recoil and that this is a very accurate load?
whelennut

In my Sako M85 06 for light practice shooting I use Hornady 170 gr. FP bullets over 47 grains of R-15. Haven't run them over the chronograph but estimate they are running at 2400 to 2500 fps.

In the Hornady manual in their list of bullets they say the following for the 170 FP's: "velocity 2000 to 2500 fps for medium/medium heavy game".

I do not have anything smaller than the 06 in a 30 caliber so if a light load is wanted or needed this is it.

Groups run anywhere from 5/8" to 1" depending on how well I am shooting on any given day. In the hands of a younger shooter with young eyes the load is likely capable of producing much smaller groups.

Jim

agree but don't need another gun to add to the fleet I'm trying to reduce the herd and need it for large black bear and hopefully an elk hunt, Lucky for me it's a Ruger #1 RSI so it's overall length is like a lever gun and it handle much like my O/U bird gun. And thanks to all for the tips.

problem is, if anyone has worked with these Hodgdon Reduced loads with H 4895, they will quickly find that they give quite a muzzle blast ( compared to other powders) and their accuracy is nothing to write home about..

I really think that Hodgdon promotes them, because ADI has given them tons of load data that they worked up and tested in Australia...this is the only explanation I can come up with, when they push H 4895 at the same time selling a whole bunch of other powders that are better suited for the job, and are much more consistently accurate and don't come with the ridiculous Muzzle blast...which tends to intimidate younger new shooters and women...defeating the purpose..

A proposal: Judging from the number of views of several posts, just for the 30.06, on reduced loads of different grained bullets, it would appear that there's quite an interest in "softer"/shorter range loads for .30 cal, not just the '06, and perhaps for other calibers.

Chuck Hawks has published reduced loads and I've received wonderful support on this site from numerous members. I'm wondering... proposing,, and wondering how to get this going... I'm proposing that "The Writers", write an article, or get a post going, specifically for low velocity/soft rounds/close range loads for the .30 caliber, as well as other cals. Perhaps the article could have links to postings, or articles for specific calibers... I say calibers, because there's not much difference 'tween my .308 and 30.06 capabilities of running the same bullets at similar velocities. Perhaps the same is true for other .30 cals and even different cals. Maybe "Reduced Loads" needs its own category??

So, I'm hoping for a good article/post, which consolidates and makes info more accessible. I will be posting this as well on other posts I'm on... What do y'all think?

Take care,,, Ken

brinky72, I have loaded hornady 170 gr flat points in the 30-06. I ended up with 41.5 with h4895 at an average of 2318 fps, and 52.5 with h4350 at an average of 2448 fps. With most loads this rifle shoots .6 to 1.0 moa at 100 yards. The h4895 averaged 2.75, and the h4350 1.25. I always say I'm going to try them on deer, but haven't so far.

I hope this helps.
adam

I worked up a short range deer load for my Mannlicher-Schoenauer in .30'06 consisting of 170 grain Nosler Solid Base and 42 grains of IMR-3031. It's traveling 2349 fps at the muzzle and groups about 1.25". I've never had that rifle so loaded whenever a deer came by so, I can't give a first hand account on the effectiveness but have no doubts.

I just noticed in my notes that I made a similar load for my M.70 Fetherweight '06 using Sierra 170 and 45 grains of Milsurplus 4895. 5 groups averaged 1.6" with a mv of 2348 fps.

I have a book on cast bullet loads I can dig out.That should be in the ballpark velocity wise

Many years ago I was looking for a good timber anchoriing round for my friend's 308win. The thought of a 170gr FP at 2600FPS held great promise so I called Speer and asked someone in the ballistic lab about using it for the 308. He told me there would be no problem using the 170 at 308 velocities. He said it would open up more violently, but would not blow up and would kill very nicely.

So, on his advice, I loaded 4064 under the 170FP and gave them to my friend. He proceeded to kill almost 20 deer over the years with that load and NEVER needed a second shot. Deer dropped so fast it was like flipping a switch. Running, walking, standing, it didn't matter. That big FP hitting at 2600FPS was like ther Hammer of Thor and shot flat enough for 300yd shots if needed.

When I started loading for my 308 carbine, I worked up a load with 170gr FP and plan on using them this fall too. Your 30'06 should be no different. Use 307Win data or loads for 180gr bullets and you should be fine.

IME muzzle blast is just as intimidating as recoil to young shooters, women, he-men, etc.
IMR 4759 fills the case fairly well reducing the possibility of double charges. Muzzle blast is very mild, recoil is negligible. I like it! My kids like it!
I use it in the 375 H&H Magnum as well, and for the same reasons! YMMV.
whelennut